So if you don't spank, how would you handle this?

[Melinda]

My just turned 4 year old is a super sweet kid, but boy does he have a temper! This morning, he got mad at me because I would only give him one slice of bread at a time since he usually wastes half of whatever is on his plate. I told him he could have another if he ate that one.

 

He called me a dumb mutt and a moron (thank you, Diary of a Wimpy Kid movie) when I wouldn't give in. I told him to leave the table if he was going to be disrespectful. He screamed, "FINE" at me and knocked his chair down onto its back after trying to throw it and discovering it was too heavy to lift, so I told him to go spend some time in his bed. Instead, he went and got the video camera that I had set aside to donate to someone who cannot afford to buy one and he threw it across the room, breaking it.

 

He then proceeded to return to the table and act like nothing had happened. I told him that since he decided to throw his chair, he could not sit on them today and that he still needed to go spend some time alone in his room. I also told him that I would put his food away for him to eat later.

 

He started looking around for something else to throw at me, so I spanked him (a rarity in our house, but not sure what else I should have done - I would love some suggestions -- btw, he has been spanked *maybe* 3 times in his whole life) and told him again to go to his room. He then tried to punch me.

 

He stomped up the stairs screaming, and is now sitting in his bed under the covers, crying.

 

He is the first one of my children who acts like this, but if he is getting this volatile over something like a piece of bread, I am nervous about what he will be like as he gets older. Like I said at the beginning, he is a super sweet kid 99% of the time. When something sets him off though, it's like he is looking for any outlet for his anger.

 

I am not sure where this anger comes from unless it has something to do with the new baby coming. We have the typical sibling stuff (kids picking on each other, etc) but DH and I are both soft-spoken and tend to be slow to get upset about things. He has no problem communicating, and speaks very well with a big vocabulary, so that shouldn't be part of the issue.

 

Any ideas? Is it time to involve someone like a child psychologist? This is very out of character for him, but has gotten to be an almost everyday thing (the throwing and screaming, not the spanking) in the last 4 or 5 weeks (since the Drs have started putting me on alert to be ready for the baby at any second).

[Impish]

For me, with the first yelling of names, and attempted throwing of the chair, I would have physically taken him to his room. He wouldn't have had the option of not going.

 

I know its hard to manage a struggling 4 yo, Princess was 2 when I was hurt and reduced to 1 arm. Its hard, but it can be done.

 

It likely does have a lot to do with the new baby coming, but at the same time, the behaviour could end up hurting someone, so needs to be consistently dealt with.

[JenC3]

Hmm... With that sort of outburst he would lose ALL privileges: movies, fave toys, treats, etc. He would be right beside me and working. Going to bed early, etc. When my 4 yr old, now 5 has outburst he loses his toys which are very important to him.

[abbeyej]

My reaction would have been to grab him by the shoulders *immediately* after he knocked down the chair and guide him to pick it up and replace it at the table (using what physical force is necessary -- not to hurt him, but to keep him from lashing out at me or other objects), then move him directly to whatever isolation spot is used in your house. (In our houses, this would usually be his bed or the steps.)

 

If he's at a stage where he won't *stay* when you put him there, place him there, then stay within arm's reach or so, but turn so you aren't looking directly at him. Better yet, appear to be doing something else (grab a book or magazine, start organizing something, whatever) and ignore him. If he tries to move from his spot, physically return him, but do not engage in argument. (The first time say, "No, you must stay on your bed until you get control of yourself and I say you may get down." -- after that, just return him.) This might happen over-and-over. Today.

 

The goal is to remain CALM and CONSISTENT. Don't let him think that if he gets up for the 34th time, you'll be so tired you give up.

[Melinda]

Thanks for responding. I agree that it needs to be dealt with consistently but it has been hard to find something that works for him.

 

I forgot to add that I did take away his favorite toy when he threw the camera. Maybe I should take more things away?

[Veritaserum]

For me, with the first yelling of names, and attempted throwing of the chair, I would have physically taken him to his room. He wouldn't have had the option of not going.

 

Yep. If you choose to use mean words, you earn time away from other people until you're ready to be nice again. When you're ready to be nice, you need to apologize to whomever you offended (and Mom, too, for misbehaving). You get hugs and kisses when you choose to be nice again.

 

In most cases I try to figure out why the child misbehaved. Then I try to teach the appropriate response for dealing with the feelings the child had. "I feel really angry that I don't get to have another piece of bread."

[Karen in CO]

Instead of telling him to go to his room, I would have taken him to his room. It would have stopped the escalation. We don't yell at Mommy. I know it is hard to carry a mad child to his room without getting hurt. If they flail and kick, I sit on the floor in one of those restraining hugs until they calm down.

 

My two girls both have had strong tempers. I work with them to learn to control their tempers. My youngest has spent more time than the other two in her room. A temper is not a cause for punishment. Everyone has a temper. It is what you do until you calm down that is important, and that is where the parenting comes in to help a child learn to control that. Nobody likes feeling out of control.

 

Now at 6, my youngest will take herself to her room before she gets out of control.

[twoforjoy]

I've dealt with situations like that a lot with my son.

 

I used to feel like I had to punish EVERY act of disobedience/defiance/destructiveness. So, if DS did something wrong, and got a time-out, and then called me a name because he was angry, I'd up the punishment. Then he'd get madder, and do something else, and I'd up the punishment again. Soon we'd be in these cycles where I'd keep upping the punishments (we generally don't spank but at times did resort to spanking during these cycles), and he'd keep getting madder, and I'd feel the need to punish his expressions of anger by escalating the punishment, and he'd get madder again, until I had forbidden him from doing anything fun ever again and he was completely furious.

 

At this point, I accept that my DS has a temper and is still not old enough to be totally in control of it. So, if he does something wrong, and gets a consequence, I don't add on additional consequences for his expressions of anger over the punishment, I just ignore it. I generally always make a time-out part of the consequence, so that he can be alone to cool down and not have a chance to do anything destructive. So, if he does something that makes me, say, take away video games from him for the day and have a 10-minute time out, and then he turns around and yells at me that I'm the worst mom in the world and he hates me and I'm mean, or if he throws something, I'm really, really tempted to punish him again for that attitude, but I do what I can to hold my tongue, ignore the outburst, and make sure we follow through on the consequences I'd set out (time out and no video games).

 

This seems to work pretty well for him. Granted, he's older now (turned 7 last month), but more often than not, after being in his room for 5 minutes he'll be calmed down, and by the end of the time out he'll apologize to me, without prompting, for his outburst and will seem genuinely sorry about it. I've seen less escalation in his anger the more that I've been as conscious as possible of keeping my own emotions in check and putting the focus on following through consistently with the original consequences, and basically just ignoring any outbursts he might have in response to them.

 

At 4, if destructiveness is a problem, I'd probably make sure the child's room had nothing in it they could hurt themselves or others with, and carry them in there for a time-out, so they didn't have a chance to start being destructive.

[TXMomof4]

 

I am not sure where this anger comes from unless it has something to do with the new baby coming. We have the typical sibling stuff (kids picking on each other, etc) but DH and I are both soft-spoken and tend to be slow to get upset about things. He has no problem communicating, and speaks very well with a big vocabulary, so that shouldn't be part of the issue.

 

 

 

My son is a lot like this. He is very "grown-up" in a lot of ways and I have a hard time remembering that he's 4. He's still so young. My experience has been that the flare-ups occur in situations where his response is still that of a very young child, but it takes the form of an older kid, kwim?

 

What we've done is give him a space to yell and throw things. He has to go to his room, period. When he's that upset he doesn't want to talk to me and it really isn't helpful at that point. He can go to his room, throw his pillows and stuffed animals and cry (yell) his little heart out. He just doesn't know how to take that anger/irritation/rage out in a way that is acceptable in public yet. When he's done, I go talk to him, we clean up the mess and carry on.

 

Honestly, letting him go like that a few times seems to have taught him that it really doesn't make anything better. He's closer to 5 now and he still gets angry, but he hasn't had a meltdown like that in several months.

 

This is just what's worked in my house, with this child. It never would have worked with dd - she needs me to step in and stop it. She doesn't know how to let it go on her own and the anger just builds on itself unless I sit her down, hold her tight and seriously love on her in the moment.

 

Also, he probably is stressed about the new baby. Once it's there and he can see that it isn't affecting your love for him, I imagine he'll calm down about it. The unknown is a scary thing for all of us!

:grouphug:

[Impish]

My thing with hustling him to his room immediately is it deprives him of an audience/target.

 

Often, things don't 'work' the first time. Or the 5th. But over time, you will see a change, when he figures out that you're not going to give up or in.

[LittleIzumi]

Yep. If you choose to use mean words, you earn time away from other people until you're ready to be nice again. When you're ready to be nice, you need to apologize to whomever you offended (and Mom, too, for misbehaving). You get hugs and kisses when you choose to be nice again.

 

In most cases I try to figure out why the child misbehaved. Then I try to teach the appropriate response for dealing with the feelings the child had. "I feel really angry that I don't get to have another piece of bread."

:iagree: My kids can be as angry as they want--in their room. If they're freaking out, I have no problem picking them up bodily & carrying them to that room. When they calm down & are ready to rejoin the family, they can come out.

[Guest]

:bigear:

Good thread - my little dd is Miss Temper Tantrum.

[homeschoolally]

:grouphug: If that helps any, I know how you feel! One of our children does things like that and and his siblings would never dream of it. I'm eating a lot of humble pie here because when I used to see things like this in other familes I'd feel pretty smug about my own well-behaved kids until this phase began.

 

I'll be following the replies here. Did you see this thread?

If you have/had a rebellious kid, what might you have done differently...

I wish there had been more response--but those who did shared some great thoughts.

[tabrizia]

DS has a piggy bank with a ton of change in it, he put all the money he gets in it, and we tend to give him coins randomly. We have told him if he breaks something he will have to pay to replace or repair it. He hasn't yet tested us to the limit of breaking something, since he doesn't want to spend "his" money on it. If he had thrown something like the video camera I would have taken his piggy bank and taken out the money to replace it, even if it wasn't the full amount he would be losing a lot of his cash.

 

I also would have physically taken him to his room if he hadn't gone on his own. Once he had calmed down we would have discussed it too. Fortunately mine would have likely just melted down over being told only one piece of bread at a time and tried to send me to my room, rather then breaking a video camera.

 

I have been having trouble with my 4 year old too. I have noticed a lot more tantrums since he turned 4, then we have ever had before. DS tends to melt down over small inconsequential things, like being asked to go potty, or being asked to pick something up. Seriously minor issues, that shouldn't cause problems. Plus he has gotten mouthy and tries to impose his will on everyone, and his independence. I really think in our case it is just a combination of being 4 and having a newborn in the house.

[deacongirl]

The book The Nurtured Heart Approach might be helpful.

[melissel]

:grouphug: I'm sorry. We're dealing with similar stuff from my DD5, and none of the standard advice works for us. I've posted a lot about her here. What HAS worked to a very large degree is going all natural with her diet. We haven't had an outburst or meltdown since we did. We've had a few moments where we've gone head to head, but then she turns and walks away and does what she was told, or she offers an alternative solution to whatever she was wanting (e.g., "Can I watch the show if I go finish cleaning my room first?").

 

Two books that were recommended to me are Transforming the Difficult Child and The Explosive Child. You might want to take a look at those if you feel diet isn't the issue. And more :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:!

[elfgivas]

"Peaceful Parents, Peaceful Kids" by Naomi Drew. Its a "how to" book, but also gives kids and parents great skills for managing anger, etc.

 

fwiw, i work on "life structure" when something like this happens. i look at bedtimes, and make sure we're all getting enough sleep. i eliminate media: no tv, no computer, no movies, no electronic games.... lots of mozart and other calming music. then i go on to food, and make sure i know what they're eating and when, and mostly cook completely from scratch, and lots (and lots) of good outdoor time.... taking the dog for a walk, going on a nature walk, playing baseball/soccer/tetherball, bike riding, skipping, hopscotch, bubble blowing, kite flying, just about anything outside. by this point, the behavior for all of us is usually amazingly better. when they were that age, i also added in lots of reading together with cuddling early in the day. i would have a basket of FIAR or BFIAR books by the bed and when they woke up they would come and crawl in with me and we would read together before breakfast. it was a magical time. (and i wouldn't go back to media that is disrespectful, books or tv or movies, for anything! the Before Five in a Row books are lovely....)

 

the peaceful parents book has transformed our family.... it helps kids realize they are responsible for dealing with their frustrations and emotions and gives them good skills for doing it.

 

hang in there! :grouphug:

ann

[ktgrok]

It sounds like something is really bothering him. Either he is getting sick? Ear infection? or there is something else going on making him feel insecure or scared. Kids that feel good about themselves don't act that way. My son did, and it turned out he had ADHD and Aspergers. The aspergers was probably what was causing the behavior issues. He didn't know how to express his feelings or how to make himself feel better when he got upset. Low blood sugar makes it 100% worse, so meal times could be dicey. I found getting him to drink some juice right away helped to get him feeling good enough to actually talk to me. If he is up there crying he is overwhelmed. My instinct would be to try to get him to drink some juice, let him calm down, then start over.

 

I can say from experience that punishing NEVER EVER helped this. It just made him more angry, and less reasonable.

 

hugs!

[ktgrok]

I've dealt with situations like that a lot with my son.

 

I used to feel like I had to punish EVERY act of disobedience/defiance/destructiveness. So, if DS did something wrong, and got a time-out, and then called me a name because he was angry, I'd up the punishment. Then he'd get madder, and do something else, and I'd up the punishment again. Soon we'd be in these cycles where I'd keep upping the punishments (we generally don't spank but at times did resort to spanking during these cycles), and he'd keep getting madder, and I'd feel the need to punish his expressions of anger by escalating the punishment, and he'd get madder again, until I had forbidden him from doing anything fun ever again and he was completely furious.

 

At this point, I accept that my DS has a temper and is still not old enough to be totally in control of it. So, if he does something wrong, and gets a consequence, I don't add on additional consequences for his expressions of anger over the punishment, I just ignore it. I generally always make a time-out part of the consequence, so that he can be alone to cool down and not have a chance to do anything destructive. So, if he does something that makes me, say, take away video games from him for the day and have a 10-minute time out, and then he turns around and yells at me that I'm the worst mom in the world and he hates me and I'm mean, or if he throws something, I'm really, really tempted to punish him again for that attitude, but I do what I can to hold my tongue, ignore the outburst, and make sure we follow through on the consequences I'd set out (time out and no video games).

 

This seems to work pretty well for him. Granted, he's older now (turned 7 last month), but more often than not, after being in his room for 5 minutes he'll be calmed down, and by the end of the time out he'll apologize to me, without prompting, for his outburst and will seem genuinely sorry about it. I've seen less escalation in his anger the more that I've been as conscious as possible of keeping my own emotions in check and putting the focus on following through consistently with the original consequences, and basically just ignoring any outbursts he might have in response to them.

 

At 4, if destructiveness is a problem, I'd probably make sure the child's room had nothing in it they could hurt themselves or others with, and carry them in there for a time-out, so they didn't have a chance to start being destructive.

 

YES! The escalation of punishments is so easy to start, and SUCH a bad idea for angry kids.

[texasmama]

One of my kids went through a very angry phase around this age. I had to physically take him to his room. If he persisted in kicking the door (his usual MO) after one warning, I sometimes had to physically restrain him. I know how to do this safely due to training in the past when I worked with kids who had violent outbursts.

 

In your shoes, I would be very aware and watch for his pot beginning to boil over or be nearby when you give him feedback/information which may trigger an outburst. Then, act immediately and quickly to remove him from the room so the situation doesn't escalate. Stay calm and focus on helping contain him until he calms down. He needs you to provide external control, it sounds like.

 

If the behaviors continue or escalate in spite of your best efforts to address them, I would take him for professional help (which will also help you to handle his behaviors). Daily violent outbursts must be taking a toll on everyone.

[FaithManor]

My thing with hustling him to his room immediately is it deprives him of an audience/target.

 

Often, things don't 'work' the first time. Or the 5th. But over time, you will see a change, when he figures out that you're not going to give up or in.

 

 

Imp nailed it! There is an awful lot of acting up at this age that is for an audience and a reaction. My grandmother once told me that my father like to throw temper tantrums (at the age of three) and he'd deliberately whack his head on the floor while he was having his hissy fit so she'd come running to see if he was okay. This went on for quite some time and she was getting exhausted. She'd tried everything to discipline him including spanking and nothing worked. One day when my grandfather came home for lunch, he noticed she was crying, asked her what was going on, and told her that the drama king needed to lose the attention he got during his meltdowns. He told her that no matter what, unless she could see evidence of serious blood gushing from the back of my dad's head, she was not to pay the slightest attention to him during his tantrum. Don't make eye contact, ignore him completely and when he was done with his fit, put him in bed for a nap. As hard as it was for her, my dad didn't take long to decide to tantrum about something. She walked away, grabbed a sewing pattern to study it, and refused to look at him when he cracked his head on the floor. She said he tantrumed for awhile, stopped and peaked around the corner to see if she was going to come, threw himself back on the floor, banged his head again, didn't get a reponse, got back up, walked over to her and said, "Mamma, you going to come?"

 

"No Danny, I am not going to come. But, I am going to have your sister put you in your room for a nap. She's quite tired of listening to your ridiculous screaming and wailing. Go scream some place else."

 

That was it. My father never had another tantrum. I am sure some kids would take longer for that treatment to take affect, but for the the drama king or queen who is having a fit as a means of remaining center stage in a battle of wills, I think that in the long run, it can be effective. But, if he's being dangerous such as knocking chairs over, I'd remove every last toy and thing in his room so he couldn't hurt himself or anyone else, and physically put him in there, close the door, and guard it so he stayed in. With that door closed there is no audience and if mamma isn't going to let him out, he isn't going to get an audience. Over time, it becomes much nicer to be good to your family, speak nice, and control yourself than to spend time staring at the walls. It may take him some time to come to that conclusion so stay strong.

 

Beyond that, I'd also look at some food or chemical sensitivities and especially if you see a pattern of this always happening at meal or snack time, or in very specific environments such as every time you mop the kitchen floor. While teens and adults tend to react to chemical sensitivities with a more standard set of medical problems, little ones start out only having a behavioral reaction. I have a friend whose child reacts just horrible to ammonia. One good whiff and he turns into a monster child. So, you may want to journal your interactions with him in detail for a couple of months and see if a pattern emerges.

 

Faith :grouphug:

[mommymilkies]

I agree with Faith (and many others!). I can't imagine this situation personally with my children. I've dealt with defiance but not this amount of aggressive behavior. I would look into a child psych if it escalates or continues often. Also, food sensitivities. If my child were to get this upset, I would reevaluate what I was asking of them and then send them to their room, physically taking them if they were at risk of endangering themselves/others.

[melissel]

I can say from experience that punishing NEVER EVER helped this. It just made him more angry, and less reasonable.

 

I agree with this, for our case. In our case, once DD5 went off the deep end, no punishment or threat of punishment made any difference. And if she was in a place where she was going to go off the deep end, no punishment or threat of punishment could stop her. I was often told to find her "currency" in order to use that to affect her behavior. But when she was going like a freight train, she had no currency--nothing mattered enough to have an effect on her. Again, though, while DD5 is a pretty strong-willed kid generally, I think that food additives had an overwhelming effect on her little brain :(

[GWOB]

I have the sweetest, kindest, most friendly 8yo boy. He was a terror at 4. He pulled a few stunts much like the one you described. The first few times I did swat his tush, but like you, I did not notice any positive results. I realized that although my son was super smart, he was still four. (It's hard to remember your 4yo is still very much 4 when they are reading quite well.) He would lose control, and it was my job as a mom to help him regain control. Like others have mentioned, I would physically (in the most gentle yet froceful way possible) remove him from whatever situation set him off. I spoke in a low, calm, forceful voice. If my ds was flailing, I would hold him until he clamed down while using my low, calm, forceful voice. After he was calm and settled (could be five minutes, could be an hour), I would make him fix whatever he had destroyed. In your case, make your son put away the chair and apologize to you.

 

It takes time. It is extremely frustrating. My first gray hairs were discovered around that time. But, you will see results. Your son will learn to trust his mommy much more. He will know that mom will help him if he loses control. You will be the safe place. Eventually he will learn to control himself, because you taught him how and because you modeled self-control.

 

:grouphug: 4yos are hard. I have a 4yo girl right now. The gray hairs are multiplying.

[twoforjoy]

YES! The escalation of punishments is so easy to start, and SUCH a bad idea for angry kids.

 

It's also bad for consistency as a parent. I would end up giving him such severe consequences that there was no way I was going to really follow through on them (and they weren't consequences that it would have been right to follow through on). We'd both get to the point where we were just reacting out of anger and frustration.

 

I think the really important thing, for me, was to realize that I was the one responsible for keeping DS's behavior from escalating. He is a kid and doesn't have the skills to do so. It's on me, as the parent and adult, to remain calm and keep things from getting out of control.

[GWOB]

:iagree: My kids can be as angry as they want--in their room. If they're freaking out, I have no problem picking them up bodily & carrying them to that room. When they calm down & are ready to rejoin the family, they can come out.

 

When my oldest started to lose control, I would calmly tell her to throw her hissy in her room. She would just walk right in there, get it all out, and inform me when she was done. The other two? Not so much. They can't all be easy.

:grouphug: If that helps any, I know how you feel! One of our children does things like that and and his siblings would never dream of it. I'm eating a lot of humble pie here because when I used to see things like this in other familes I'd feel pretty smug about my own well-behaved kids until this phase began.

 

I'll be following the replies here. Did you see this thread?

If you have/had a rebellious kid, what might you have done differently...

I wish there had been more response--but those who did shared some great thoughts.

 

Yep. I was such an awesome parent when I had one small, well-behaved child. Then I had the previously-mentioned ds. I now never comment on other people's kids. I learned my lesson.

 

It's also bad for consistency as a parent. I would end up giving him such severe consequences that there was no way I was going to really follow through on them (and they weren't consequences that it would have been right to follow through on). We'd both get to the point where we were just reacting out of anger and frustration.

 

I think the really important thing, for me, was to realize that I was the one responsible for keeping DS's behavior from escalating. He is a kid and doesn't have the skills to do so. It's on me, as the parent and adult, to remain calm and keep things from getting out of control.

 

:iagree: They need you to maintain the control. They need you to help them regain control. They need you to model self-control. It certainly isn't easy, and it takes A LOT of practice, but it is so worth it in the end.

[Nakia]

We actually do spank, but rarely, and not for something like this. When a child is angry and physically responding to a situation, the worst thing you can do is spank, imho. My oldest, who is my strong willed child, went through a similar phase at around 4-5. I would just have to physically remove her from the room. And sometimes I would have to remove her from the room 2 or 3 times. She would cool down and then come out and we would talk about it. She is almost 11 now, and she still has a bad temper, but she is learning to control it now, thank the Lord. She often removes herself from the situation if she starts to feel out of control, or I will remind her that she needs to make a decision of whether to let herself get out of control or leave the room. She usually heads right to her room. She recognizes that she has an anger problem, and she is working on it, with our help and encouragement. Hang in there, Momma! :grouphug:

[Alice]

I agree with a lot of what's been said. I had a friend who had a son who had some major meltdowns at about 4 and she realized that part of it was just being angry and not knowing what to do with that. So they taught him that when he was angry he could go out in the backyard and hit things with sticks (usually trees). Or go in his room and punch his special huge pillow as hard as he could. It was safe and an effective way of releasing his anger. The key was that it's not ok to hit people (mom, sisters, baby) but it is ok to hit a pillow. It's not ok to break stuff in the house but it is ok to break some sticks. I think the key though was that she would be very attune to him and she would catch him before he started to meltdown. They taught him the strategies when he wasn't angry and then as she could tell he was about to lose it she'd remind him "go to your pillow" or "go outside". I guess you could argue that he wasn't really being punished but she didn't give in about whatever it was he was mad about, it was just that she provided him with a way to be mad.

[QueenCat]

:grouphug:s. You've received lots of good advice. I won't repeat what others have said. One thing I learned the hard way with my younger ds is that he would have major issues if he didn't get a lot of sleep. The pediatrician suggested I put him down at the same time each night for two weeks, and NOT wake him up in the morning. I recorded when he woke up, on his own, for the two weeks. That was how much sleep he NEEDED on a regular basis. When I made it so he could always get it, the behavior issues rapidly diminished. Sometimes that meant not doing things in the evening so he could get to bed early (he needed about 12 hours of sleep until he was about 10-11). At almost 19, he still needs a solid 10-11 of hours to be on an even keel. Some people really do need more sleep than others.

[alpidarkomama]

I don't have any good suggestions about the tantrums, but my DS had some humdingers when he was 4. I remember a few that went on for THREE HOURS OR MORE! We mostly just (tried) to hold him or distract him (not as successful!). Ages 2 and 3 with him were really easy, and the good news is that 5 they only happened maybe a couple of times a month, and now that he's 6 I can't even remember the last time he had a tantrum.

 

I did notice a decrease in frequency when my DH made a special point of doing one-on-one time with him each day, even just 15 minutes playing with blocks. It really could partly be from a need for more focused attention. Could someone in the family go on a "date night" with him?

 

I'm so glad those tantrums are now a dim memory. Very difficult.

[LibraryLover]

Situations usually start somewhere then ramp up and if allowed to escalate end up with something broken. How many holes are in the dry wall of his room? Is this the first time it's happened? It's up to the parent to help a 4 year old manage those big emotions, try to scale them back, and not push the child to the brink.

 

Exhaustion, sensory overload, hunger, sugar with no protein, etc all contribute to meltdowns. Some might seem to come out of 'nowhere' but most have a starting point. At that point, what does the child need? A run around the yard kicking a ball to get out the energy, a high protein snack, a warm bath and a bedtime story to relax into sleep? It's OK for a parent to try to help a young child get these needs met. It's not giving in, it's not being a wimp, it's not rewarding bad behavior. It's the parents job to help the child manage these stressful times. a four year cannot do these things on his or her own once a line is crossed. What life expereince does a small child have to deal with these confusing emotions and situations?

 

If a tantrum is inevitable, be ready to help get him through it without the parent ramping it up further with questions, lectures, "I did this for you and this is how you treat me?" , commands, yelling, threats etc. That will do nothing good for the child and will increase the confusion already present in the child. For or a raving 4 year old bent on breaking things, that means he's going to rage in my lap. It doesn't mean talking to my child. Talk comes much later. No questions of why, no talk about bad boy etc. Just sit. Be there. On the floor, my back against the sofa, his arms crossed against his chest, bear hold by me. That's what I would do.

 

As soon as he started with melting down , I woudl have taken him aside by the hand, or if he was fast going nowhere (getting increasingly agitated and combativ) , I might have picked him up and held him in the safest way I could have. If I had sent him to his room, I would have gone with him, and not given him a chance to throw anything.

Edited June 14, 2011 by LibraryLover

[mytwomonkeys]

i use and like the techniques in 123 magic. when your son started arguing about the slices of bread is when i would have started counting.

 

i'm sorry you had a rough time with him. i've had those days and they stink:grouphug:

[ereks mom]

My thing with hustling him to his room immediately is it deprives him of an audience/target.

 

Often, things don't 'work' the first time. Or the 5th. But over time, you will see a change, when he figures out that you're not going to give up or in.

 

:iagree: Consistency is the key.

[lea1]

We have two sons; one is a pleaser and I would have thought myself a wonderful parent if I only had him. I probably wrote something very similar to this about my other son. He would always throw something, knock something over and/or hit people when he was angry. I learned to very carefully control my response and that one thing really helped a lot, although it was very hard for me at times.

 

He tends to not like to be in places alone, maybe is scared or something, so sending him to his room was not an option. Sending him to the time out bean bag chair did not work either because he would simply refuse, fight tooth and nail and continue to get back up and run away.

 

I finally found that spanking him worked if I remained very calm and I made him sit in my lap and I held him when afterwards. He would be angry, of course, and I would sometimes have to administer another swat because he would kick my arm or something. I would not let him sit with his back to me. I would make him sit sideways on my lap so I could still see his face and I was very calm and loving about it.

 

The first couple of times, it took a long time for him to get his anger under control, stop fighting me, let go of his anger and be sweet again. The more I followed this procedure, the faster he learned to control his anger. It did not take very long before he did not need this any longer.

 

We also had a lot going on during this time. We were living in a rental house and building a new home and we were forever having to go pick stuff out or go to the house or whatever. It was stressful for us all and I know he picked up on that but he also tends to have a quick temper and tended to be a bit later than some in developing his self control. My calm but loving approach seemed to work for him, although every child is so different.

 

We did go see a therapist about it, as we too were thinking "oh my goodness; if he is like this now, what will he be like when he is older!" and it was helpful to discuss it with her. She confirmed that staying calm was the most important thing we could do, that we had to model that self control. It also makes them feel more secure, as a screaming parent is scary and intimidating to a small child (Scream Free Parenting was very helpful to me).

 

He is now five and a half and he is really showing self control these days. Once in a very great while, he might push/hit his brother or throw something but, the vast majority of the time, the worst thing he does is yell and he does not do even that very often. If given a second chance, he normally straightens out, apologizes and does not require anything further but, if necessary, he will go to time out without a fight these days. He has come such a long way and it is a wonderful thing to see.

 

Hang in there. It is hard but it will get better.

[JennyD]

My just-turned-6yo rarely had tantrums as a 2, 3, 4, or 5 yo. However, we are currently in the midst of some big changes and he has been handling it VERY badly. All of a sudden, he has been hitting, throwing things, etc. It has been very frustrating and upsetting for all of us. And punishing him just seems to make it worse. However, I recently read The Kazdin Method of Parenting the Defiant Child, by the director of the Yale Child Study Center, and found it incredibly helpful. Don't be put off by the title -- even at the moment, I still wouldn't call my child particularly defiant -- but he has some great info about the state of current research into human behavior and how to use that knowledge to change your child's negative behaviors. I implemented some of his suggestions immediately and it has been a huge, huge improvement. I find most parenting books to be kind of irritating but this one is a winner.

[butterflymommy]

We don't spank, not for any real ideological reason, but my husband won't do it and I am very weak and have arthritis in my wrists... so no spanking here.

 

When my kids act like this, there's an instant loss of all privileges for a certain amount of time depending on the severity. For something like you describe (intentionally destroying something meant for charity) we'd probably go a week. Privileges here are TV and video games. There's not much else to take away. We don't usually take away toys since all my kids share toys. Sometimes we add early bedtime and timeouts in bedrooms to the punishment.

 

As far as a psych, unless you think there is a possibility he is being abused somewhere (neighbor, someone at church, anywhere), I would not enlist their help just yet because this kind of rotten behavior can be pretty typical in kids-- even otherwise sweet kids.

 

Some kids need rules explained to them very carefully. Don't assume he knows exactly what is expected of him unless it's laid out very carefully. We had to do this with one of our kids, give a very detailed list of what was not acceptable and what would cause a punishment.

[Rivka]

I agree with what many posters have said about not continuing to escalate consequences, removing attention, and paying heed to triggers like a need for food, sleep, and exercise. Since you say that you're very pregnant, I recommend leaving the room yourself rather than trying to remove him to his bedroom.

 

You say that this behavior coincides with the baby being ready to come. This is totally common: here's a great blog post about it.

 

One of the things we were told was that kids whose parents were expecting another baby had no idea what having a sibling would be like, so they built it up in their heads as a horrible, scary thing. The closer the due date got, the more wigged out the kids would get, and they'd start behaving worse and worse (and worse). Everyone in the class looked around and said slightly different versions of the statement, "I'm so glad to hear it's normal because I thought my child had suddenly turned into an uncontrollable monster." The timeline we were given about sibling feelings as a new baby approached was this:

* At the end of the pregnancy or adoption wait, the potential big sibling will get more and more stressed, imagine more and more horrible things, be completely unwilling to talk about them, and start acting out by having crazy tantrums.

When my son was born, my daughter was almost 4. She had a very striking increase in refusing to go to nursery school, complaining of phantom illnesses, and other signs of anxiety. She wasn't able to express the fact that she was totally freaked out about the baby, but all of those problems disappeared once he was born.

 

So I wouldn't worry that your kid is some kind of "bad seed," or on a straight road to juvenile delinquency if you don't nip this behavior in the bud ASAP. His behavior is unacceptable, but I would interpret it as him communicating, the only way he can, that he is freaked out about the huge changes that are about to happen for him. For my daughter, it turned out that she had huge anxiety that I would go into labor while she wasn't home and that she wouldn't know what was going on and no one would be there to take care of her. That was why she faked sick and refused to go to nursery school.

 

At a separate time when he is not raging, I would try to find ways of preparing him for the baby. Read books, watch videos, talk about what it will be like, visit someone with a newborn, etc.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Rivka

[Violet Crown]

At a separate time when he is not raging, I would try to find ways of preparing him for the baby. Read books, watch videos, talk about what it will be like, visit someone with a newborn, etc.

:iagree: We realized, when first dd was seven, that this was the root of the sudden behavior changes. I gave her my copy of Sears & Sears "The Baby Book" (she was an advanced reader), and she read it from cover to cover. It really calmed her down. Plus, I got to hear valuable advice from her on long car drives ("Mommy, I hope you're planning on holding the baby very soon after she's born! It's so important to bond").

 

But she didn't really settle until her dear sister was born. I vividly remember her holding her sister and laughing, and saying "Somehow I just didn't realize my new sister would be a baby!"

 

Anyway, as a non-spanker (dh and I were never spanked, so it just never occurred to us as a disciplinary tool), I agree with nearly all the above advice, except possibly the revocation of privileges. In my experience, children that little live in the moment, and imposing penalties days or even hours later, when they've calmed down and are behaving well, is not productive.

[LibraryLover]

I missed the pregnant part. Holding through a tantrum is not exactly easy or safe. I like what Rivka had to say.

[twoforjoy]

I missed the pregnant part. Holding through a tantrum is not exactly easy or safe. I like what Rivka had to say.

 

I missed that, too. That was actually a rough transition for me with DS. He was 5 when I was pregnant with DD, and suddenly dragging him to his room wasn't an option, because he was just too heavy.

[texasmama]

I missed that, too. That was actually a rough transition for me with DS. He was 5 when I was pregnant with DD, and suddenly dragging him to his room wasn't an option, because he was just too heavy.

 

My very well-behaved 6 year old had a huge meltdown tantrum in public when I was 8 months pregnant. She was too big (and so was I) for me to do anything physical about it such as removing her. It was a very bad scene until she pulled herself together.:001_huh: The good news is that she is now almost 16 and doesn't do that anymore.:D (There is hope - the children do grow up and out of most of these things.) In the meantime, :grouphug:

[dirty ethel rackham]

Situations usually start somewhere then ramp up and if allowed to escalate end up with something broken. How many holes are in the dry wall of his room? Is this the first time it's happened? It's up to the parent to help a 4 year old manage those big emotions, try to scale them back, and not push the child to the brink.

 

Exhaustion, sensory overload, hunger, sugar with no protein, etc all contribute to meltdowns. Some might seem to come out of 'nowhere' but most have a starting point. At that point, what does the child need? A run around the yard kicking a ball to get out the energy, a high protein snack, a warm bath and a bedtime story to relax into sleep? It's OK for a parent to try to help a young child get these needs met. It's not giving in, it's not being a wimp, it's not rewarding bad behavior. It's the parents job to help the child manage these stressful times. a four year cannot do these things on his or her own once a line is crossed. What life expereince does a small child have to deal with these confusing emotions and situations?

 

If a tantrum is inevitable, be ready to help get him through it without the parent ramping it up further with questions, lectures, "I did this for you and this is how you treat me?" , commands, yelling, threats etc. That will do nothing good for the child and will increase the confusion already present in the child. For or a raving 4 year old bent on breaking things, that means he's going to rage in my lap. It doesn't mean talking to my child. Talk comes much later. No questions of why, no talk about bad boy etc. Just sit. Be there. On the floor, my back against the sofa, his arms crossed against his chest, bear hold by me. That's what I would do.

 

As soon as he started with melting down , I woudl have taken him aside by the hand, or if he was fast going nowhere (getting increasingly agitated and combativ) , I might have picked him up and held him in the safest way I could have. If I had sent him to his room, I would have gone with him, and not given him a chance to throw anything.

:iagree

 

When ds15 was 3 1/2, we moved while pregnant. He went into rages several times a day. It took a while for us to figure out that part of it was his sensory issues, but part was the adjustment to the move and dealing with the upcoming changes with a new baby coming into the house. It was exhausting. I learned that the more I was in control, the more safe my child felt. BTW, he did stop raging the day his sister was born, but his intense anger did not stop until we dealt with his sensory issues.

[rootsnwings]

I would've given him 2 pieces of bread! :)

[joannqn]

I'm going to come back and look at this later when I have time. My 4 year old is a nightmare at times. The older two weren't like this. This morning he pushed my youngest away from her toy because he didn't want to share it, then his my oldest who was trying to deal with it the same way I would have. I was in the shower. I came out and was told about it and sent him to his room for a time out. He proceeded to scream as loud as he can and refused to go to his room. Time outs don't work because he won't go or won't stay. I already know I can't carry him in there; he's as tall as a 5 year old and a solid and strong 45 pounds. It is so difficult to forcefully move him, I'm afraid I'll hurt him or myself trying. I've tried the sit and hold but he just keeps screaming and fighting and doesn't calm down. Oh, and remaining calm and talking quietly and calmly doesn't work either. I told him I was calling Daddy and went to get the phone. With that, he screamed louder, went in his room, and slammed the door with all his might. It made the whole house move, something fell somewhere, and I'm afraid he's going to break something (it's a rental). The door frame is already cracked; I'm not sure if he did it or if that particular crack was already there. He doesn't listen to me at all and will just scream louder. Now, if DH takes over, he'll hug him and calm down right away.

[endurancerider]

There are many good ideas already listed here.

 

One thing I do when my children choose an inappropriate action/response is after the time-out or whatever the discipline happens to be, have them give me examples of how they could have responded better. If they are not sure, I give them some hints, but we spend a few minutes thinking of several alternatives that would have been a better choice. We use it as a brainstorming session so that next time, they have some more tools to use, they have ownership of their ideas of how to handle conflict, and they know exactly what the expectation is.

[CalicoKat]

My just turned 4 year old is a super sweet kid, but boy does he have a temper! This morning, he got mad at me because I would only give him one slice of bread at a time since he usually wastes half of whatever is on his plate. I told him he could have another if he ate that one.

 

He called me a dumb mutt and a moron (thank you, Diary of a Wimpy Kid movie) when I wouldn't give in. I told him to leave the table if he was going to be disrespectful. He screamed, "FINE" at me and knocked his chair down onto its back after trying to throw it and discovering it was too heavy to lift, so I told him to go spend some time in his bed. Instead, he went and got the video camera that I had set aside to donate to someone who cannot afford to buy one and he threw it across the room, breaking it.

 

He then proceeded to return to the table and act like nothing had happened. I told him that since he decided to throw his chair, he could not sit on them today and that he still needed to go spend some time alone in his room. I also told him that I would put his food away for him to eat later.

 

He started looking around for something else to throw at me, so I spanked him (a rarity in our house, but not sure what else I should have done - I would love some suggestions -- btw, he has been spanked *maybe* 3 times in his whole life) and told him again to go to his room. He then tried to punch me.

 

He stomped up the stairs screaming, and is now sitting in his bed under the covers, crying.

 

He is the first one of my children who acts like this, but if he is getting this volatile over something like a piece of bread, I am nervous about what he will be like as he gets older. Like I said at the beginning, he is a super sweet kid 99% of the time. When something sets him off though, it's like he is looking for any outlet for his anger.

 

I am not sure where this anger comes from unless it has something to do with the new baby coming. We have the typical sibling stuff (kids picking on each other, etc) but DH and I are both soft-spoken and tend to be slow to get upset about things. He has no problem communicating, and speaks very well with a big vocabulary, so that shouldn't be part of the issue.

 

Any ideas? Is it time to involve someone like a child psychologist? This is very out of character for him, but has gotten to be an almost everyday thing (the throwing and screaming, not the spanking) in the last 4 or 5 weeks (since the Drs have started putting me on alert to be ready for the baby at any second).

 

He needs his Daddy to have a man talk about how to treat Moms. And then Daddy to escort him to apologize to you and then to have Daddy say to him in front of you that he may NOT ever disrespect you again in this way ever again.

 

I would have put him in a time out in a chair in the middle of whichever room I was in and told him that until he was calm nothing was going to happen. Once he was calm he would have the above chat with Daddy. If Daddy's at work until later then loss of priviledge. In our home a tempertantrum is a ticket to, "No-ville. When you act that way you know you're not going to get what you want."

 

He's just trying out his independent wings. Frankly a spanking never is as effective as a timeout and loss of want in this case IMO.

[redsquirrel]

He's four. Taking away more, long talks with dad isn't going to have much of an effect.

 

I might have just given him the bread and stopped the conflict. it's bread.

 

That said, at the very beginning I take a four year old to their room. I don't ask. I bring. I bring gently but I bring. And, this is important, I stay nearby. My kids would open their doors, try to leave the room etc. I stand on the other side of the door with a four year old and I hold the doorknob without saying anything, without responding. Getting into a conflict over 'Yes you WILL stay in that room!!!" will make very bad things happen. Very bad. I let them rage in there without judgement. If he wants to kick his door etc I let it happen. it's his room and if he's not going to hurt himself I just let it go.

 

And a four year old gets 4 mins and then a check in and/or a conversation about what has happened. They get a chance to hug and make up...or not, lol. Sometimes they keep screaming so I say I'll come back in a few mins. But I never though of the time in the room as time for me to take a break. it was the beginning of the discipline. It is our time to work it out but I am in control of what is happening. We are working together in that time to make it better.

 

The worst tantrum my elder child ever had in his life was when I was big pregnant. I had to carry him across a parking lot while he flipped out. I am barely 5 foot tall and he was almost 5. We managed though.

 

And you have my sympathy. Both me and both my kids have terrible tempers. And both my kids were hell on wheels at three and four. That is part of why I work really, really, really hard to keep my parenting non-violent. I have a terrible temper and so do they. We all need to learn how to keep it under control and solve conflicts without violent actions or words. We are all better in the long run.

 

FWIW, both my boys are very obedient, loving, kind children. People who weren't around to see them at 2, 3, 4 often don't believe me when I tell them about their rages, their tantrums and how really hard I worked to get us all to a good place.