Is This Friendship Worth Saving?

[JumpyTheFrog]

To make this easier to follow, I will present the story in a timeline format. I am trying to figure out if my husband and I should attempt to repair this friendship or just move on.

 

Spring 2010

Several people were having a discussion through our church's email list. Our friend, (let's call him "Fred"), stated something we disagreed with. My husband asked what his biblical support was; specifically, where was the OT law that Fred was alluding to. The way my husband worded it was along the lines of, "But where is the law? There isn't one about [this issue.]"

 

Summer 2010

Fred (a church elder) suggested we meet with him and his wife to discuss the doctrine we disagreed with our church about. My husband and I thought it would be a two way discussion, where we could present our evidence that the church's policies on some very important issues were wrong. Instead, Fred, who is quite a talkative person and has a tendency to ramble anyway, spent the first 1 1/2 hours of our two hour meeting doing all the talking. We had a binder of verses we had printed out, pages from the lexicon, etc. We got about ten minutes to show him our evidence. He didn't say much about any of it, maybe because we had almost no opportunity to present our case.

 

Fall 2010

Our church had open sharing time every week. My husband stood up and commented on the unwillingness of many church members to seriously consider the issue. He didn't name people specifically. He stated some of the "excuses" we'd heard about why the issue wasn't really worth re-examining. One elder got very angry and chewed him out publicly. A week later, Fred spent an hour (in private) chewing my husband out, following up with a long email accusing him over and over of being "prideful." (He then offered to do a long term study with us on the issue. We declined, knowing he had little intention of considering out viewpoint seriously.)

 

Besides lecturing my husband for an hour, during this time, Fred said things about me. I have seriously struggled with insomnia for several years, and Fred suggested that the reason this issue was so important to me was because I had gone crazy from lack of sleep. He also said that I seem too controlling and not submissive enough.

 

A few weeks later, Fred and his wife came over to talk to us. My husband, who is not an emotional person, starting crying when he explained how much what Fred had said hurt my feelings. (I'm not a very emotional person either, but I felt his comment about me being crazy was over the line.) Fred just kind of sat there and made a half hearted apology, along the lines of "I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt. But my feelings were hurt, too, when you sent that rude email last spring." (He was referring to the one I mentioned earlier.)

 

Fred also denied that he was ever angry at my husband. (So did the elder who chewed him out publicly.) Can you tell that "anger" was one of the things considered sinful at that church? Even if he always considers anger a sin, he should own up to it! Otherwise, I'm left thinking, "If he doesn't consider that anger, what must it be like when he is angry?!"

 

We told Fred we were leaving the church and he seemed like he wanted to take over our church search. He sent a list of recommended churches and kept talking about how we needed to have an "orderly transition" to a new church, implying that he should be part of it, as an elder.

 

In early winter, Fred emailed a few times. We found it very uncomfortable and kind of suffocating. We wanted him to back off a bit and stop the pressure of finding a new church ASAP! Or else Satan will lead us astray or something! We kept our replies brief, with vague details about how the church search was going. I guess he finally took the hint and now his emails are very short, as in, "I have some extra XYZ. Do you need some?"

 

We haven't seen Fred in several months, although his wife stopped by briefly a few times. We aren't upset with her.

 

With prayer, I am slowly starting to feel like I might be able to forgive Fred. Is the friendship worth saving? Fred is a very generous, hospitable man, but is that enough? I feel like he really doesn't respect me.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Alphabetika]

To be honest, he doesn't sound like a "generous, hospitable man." Perhaps you can quietly let the friendship go.

[Starr]

I think that would be one friendship I would let go. I'm sorry you went through this!

[Jean in Newcastle]

No. Fred has major boundary issues. It's not his place, even as an elder, to police your beliefs on what seems like a non-fundamental (since you're talking about OT laws and all). It's not his place, even as a friend, to criticize you or your marriage. It's not his place, even as an elder or a friend, to have any input into the next church you attend.

[SonshineLearner]

LET. HIM. GO! And when you find a great new church breath a sigh of relief. Forgive what you should forgive and thank God for the opportunity to move....on :)

[Amy in NH]

No. Fred has major boundary issues. It's not his place, even as an elder, to police your beliefs on what seems like a non-fundamental (since you're talking about OT laws and all). It's not his place, even as a friend, to criticize you or your marriage. It's not his place, even as an elder or a friend, to have any input into the next church you attend.

 

:iagree:

[mommaduck]

Let it go. The friendship seems to only be based on the condition that you fully agree with him and that he "leads" you as your "authority".

[AvasMom]

because I had gone crazy from lack of sleep. He also said that I seem too controlling and not submissive enough.

 

Ok, I'm stuck on this part. This would be the end of our friendship. That is just not cool. Even with an apology, he feels this way about you. That's not a friendship I'd want. I'll stop there before I let my inner feminist out without her filter.

[VBoulden]

This sounds like an unhealthy "friendship" ...Sounds like there is serious spiritual bullying going on, too. In my opinion, I'd leave these people and this situation to the Lord's care and run!!! the other way.

[WTMCassandra]

I would run away from this situation. I consider this spiritual abuse. I do not consider this person a friend in any meaning of the word. I say this from sad personal experience. This sounds all too like something that happened to us many, many years ago. (And, I am one of the most conservative people on these boards.) I would go No Contact with this person, effective yesterday.

 

ETA: Forgiveness is a worthy goal to be pursued, but it is a totally different issue from whether you can/should have a relationship with this person. Forgiveness should never be conflated with restoration. And restoration cannot happen if the other person has not repented.

Edited April 1, 2011 by WTMCassandra

[wendylee]

When was this EVER a real friendship?

 

This person has insulted you, treated you and your husband like dirt, and humiliated you in public, all in the name of his religion. He is not a godly man, he is not someone you want around you AT ALL.

 

I'm shocked that this is even something to be considered. Why on EARTH would you willingly invite such poison back into your life? :confused:

[Giraffe]

I'm seriously wondering if I know "Fred". And if you're part of a church I used to be part of. I doubt it, but honestly, this sounds very familiar. Let it go. Move on.

 

I'm especially concerned with their efforts to get you out of the church and into a new one without trying to repair the fractures they created. the fact that they are "helping" you with your church search is odd to me. Why not try to repair the situation? Why push you out? Odd.

[mommaduck]

I would run away from this situation. I consider this spiritual abuse. I do not consider this person a friend in any meaning of the word. I say this from sad personal experience. This sounds all too like something that happened to us many, many years ago. (And, I am one of the most conservative people on these boards.) I would go No Contact with this person, effective yesterday.[/b]

 

ETA: Forgiveness is a worthy goal to be pursued, but it is a totally different issue from whether you can/should have a relationship with this person. Forgiveness should never be conflated with restoration. And restoration cannot happen if the other person has not repented.

 

:iagree:

[AK_Mom4]

Well, he doesn't sound like he considers himself to be your friend. He might (maybe) have considered himself your DH's friend, but it sounds more like he considered himself to be your DH's mentor or leader.

 

Funny thing about mentors/leaders when there is no friendship involved. It works great until you disagree with them. Then, it seems to be a my-way-or-the-highway thing when they get challenged.

 

If your DH is not interested in the subordinate role (and it sounds like he isn't), then there's really nothing to worry about. Ignore the emails and get on with your lives. There isn't a "friendship" to save here.

[secular_mom]

It's not you, it's him.

[DesertDweller]

I think it's great that you feel you are coming to a place of forgiveness with this man. However, forgiving someone doesn't mean that you have to open yourself back up to their bad behavior.

 

This man has some definite issues. It doesn't sound like a healthy relationship in many ways. I would forgive. Be polite. And move on.

[Truscifi]

Ok, I'm stuck on this part. This would be the end of our friendship. That is just not cool. Even with an apology, he feels this way about you. That's not a friendship I'd want. I'll stop there before I let my inner feminist out without her filter.

 

:iagree:

 

It's not you, it's him.

 

Short and to the point. I like it.

 

As others have said, forgiveness is something you come to on your own, it is not related to whether or not you continue the relationship.

[ChristusG]

I'd definitely let this friendship go.

[dangermom]

Why on earth would you want to be friends with this person? By all means, forgive him, but don't ever bother to speak with him again. (If you tell him you've forgiven him, he will just lecture you on your sins and refuse to acknowledge that he ever did anything wrong.)

[JumpyTheFrog]

The friendship seems to only be based on the condition that you fully agree with him and that he "leads" you as your "authority".

 

I think I would agree with this. The elders at this church seem to think that "serving" others really means "telling them what to do," particularly their wives and children, especially unmarried daughters.

[8circles]

When was this EVER a real friendship?

 

This person has insulted you, treated you and your husband like dirt, and humiliated you in public, all in the name of his religion. He is not a godly man, he is not someone you want around you AT ALL.

 

I'm shocked that this is even something to be considered. Why on EARTH would you willingly invite such poison back into your life? :confused:

 

:iagree:Just stop interracting with him. Or anyone in that church as a whole. Forgiveness would be wonderful but move on.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Ok, I'm stuck on this part. This would be the end of our friendship. That is just not cool. Even with an apology, he feels this way about you. That's not a friendship I'd want. I'll stop there before I let my inner feminist out without her filter.

 

I'm glad I asked for outside opinions. I was wondering if maybe I was being over sensitive about this. Being talked about as a crazy person was the final straw that cemented my departure from that church. When I mentioned it to another male friend, he said, "But entire denominations agree with you about this issue! Are they all crazy, too?"

 

I don't intend to start a debate on the issue here, but in case you're wondering, that church's policy was that women were never to speak in the service (not even to make announcements). Except the elders were starting to grant special permission, occasionally, all while they said it was wrong for women to speak. After spending months studying the subject, my husband and I came to a different interpretation of the passages used and wanted everyone to consider our points. We also hated the hypocrisy of them allowing it out, while saying it was wrong, while also stating that they had "no official policy" about women speaking in church.

 

Anyway, apparently Fred thinks I must be crazy if this issue, and others related to it, bother me a lot. That's why I feel like he doesn't really respect me and never will, even if he eventually apologizes.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I'm shocked that this is even something to be considered. Why on EARTH would you willingly invite such poison back into your life? :confused:

 

Sometimes it's hard to be subjective about your own life. I knew people here could be more objective, which is why I posted. :-)

 

We'd been "friends" for about five years before all this and never had a problem before. We had moved and made the mistake of having all our friends from one place, our church. We'll never make that mistake again. Just as people "diversify their portfolios" for money, I think we'll do that for friends, that way if we have to leave a group, we don't lose most of our friendships.

 

Since everyone here seems overwhelmingly in the "dump him" category, then it seems like a good idea.

[Ellie]

Walk away. From that church, maybe even from that denomination, especially from Fred. In fact, don't walk...RUN. Like Forrest. Don't look back. If you need help, I'll be right over...:auto:

[Impish]

In fact, don't walk...RUN. Like Forrest. Don't look back.

:iagree:

[JumpyTheFrog]

I'm especially concerned with their efforts to get you out of the church and into a new one without trying to repair the fractures they created.

 

Well, the church had four elders. One was usually traveling, so we barely knew him, despite years of attendance. We don't really know his opinion on anything, so we have nothing against him. I already wrote about two of the elders.

 

The final elder didn't think what my husband said was helpful, but didn't seem offended or angry about it. He is a much more gentle/less controlling man than the other two. He emailed and wanted to know why we left. So have many other families. So far, all we've said to most of them is "We don't know what to say about it now...maybe some day we'll talk about it."

 

I sometimes wonder if we should tell this elder, because if others see the actions of the two as sin, then it needs to be dealt with. I'm not sure it would do much good and I don't want to "cause" a church split. Also, the stress of discussing it all would be very high for me and I already have a chronic illness that is made worse by stress.

 

A friend that left the church a year before us because he thought the elders were too controlling suggested to just leave everything alone there and move on.

[Miss Sherry]

I agree with the others who have said to let the "friendship" go.

I don't think this man wants to be a friend to you or your husband. It appears he feels his role is to dominate you.

I do think forgiveness is a good thing.But forgiveness does not mean you should put yourself in a position of being mistreated again. He is not your friend anyway. He seems to consider himself to be above you.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Well, he doesn't sound like he considers himself to be your friend. He might (maybe) have considered himself your DH's friend, but it sounds more like he considered himself to be your DH's mentor or leader.

 

Funny thing about mentors/leaders when there is no friendship involved. It works great until you disagree with them. Then, it seems to be a my-way-or-the-highway thing when they get challenged.

 

Ding, ding, ding! I think you're really on to something here. He is about twenty years older than us and now that you mention it, I do think he saw himself more like a mentor. Maybe it never was a friendship of equals. (Come to think of it, we were so much younger with fewer kids than everyone else, that I think many of them probably didn't consider us equals. That would explain a lot.)

 

That would also explain why in that long email to my husband he said something about "after all this time we've invested in you."

[Hedgehog]

...Forgiveness is a worthy goal to be pursued, but it is a totally different issue from whether you can/should have a relationship with this person. Forgiveness should never be conflated with restoration. And restoration cannot happen if the other person has not repented.

 

:iagree: Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to continue having the person or issue in your face.

 

I would quietly and peacefully drop the connection. It doesn't sound like it has done or will do you any good. :grouphug:

[JumpyTheFrog]

I do think forgiveness is a good thing.But forgiveness does not mean you should put yourself in a position of being mistreated again.

 

I agree with that. I realize that although God tells us to forgive, it doesn't mean we have to make ourselves vulnerable to the offender again.

 

Now what do we do about the wife? Just be polite? Continue to be friends? We're not great friends, but more than acquaintances.

[Tree House Academy]

No. And if you are no longer part of his church, then I would also start to ignore his e-mails...always being kind to his wife, though, if she was never part of this.

 

You have to know me pretty well before you can call me "crazy" and me take it lightly. I would not appreciate it at all from a church member, and especially a church elder!

[KnitWit]

It is not a *friendship* when one party sees the other as a *project*.

 

I have btdt myself. I will never be another person's *project* again. Ever.

[Remudamom]

I agree with that. I realize that although God tells us to forgive, it doesn't mean we have to make ourselves vulnerable to the offender again.

 

Now what do we do about the wife? Just be polite? Continue to be friends? We're not great friends, but more than acquaintances.

 

Drop em all. They sound insane.

[pbt1294]

For what it is worth, I'm a pastor's wife and I just want to say that what that man did was NOT COOL!!!

 

You already know that though!

 

I'm all for forgiveness, but forgiveness doesn't mean that you have to be buddy buddy. I would personally stay away from this guy. It seems that a little authority has gone to his head. My hubby would never speak so disrespectfully to someone, not even in private!

[tex-mex]

Sounds like Fred is not dealing with a full deck, if you know what I mean. :confused: His behavior is rude, controlling, and just plain stalker-ish. You need to forgive, but move on. No need to burn bridges. Just move on and learn from the entire (strange) lesson. Wow. Hope your next fellowship is not that controlling. :grouphug:

[tex-mex]

I agree with that. I realize that although God tells us to forgive, it doesn't mean we have to make ourselves vulnerable to the offender again.

 

Now what do we do about the wife? Just be polite? Continue to be friends? We're not great friends, but more than acquaintances.

If you bump into her at the store or wherever... politely greet her. Be the better person. Don't bring up the issue, period. Obviously due to her hubs being a control freak, you cannot truly be friends with her. But you can be polite and greet her. Small polite talk.

 

You need to never allow her husband to have that much say in your lives. Set up healthy boundaries. One boundary is leaving the church and ignoring Fred's emails or advice. Move on. Be at peace.

[Hikin' Mama]

I think you should forgive him, but I would not continue the friendship.

 

I only read the first page of posts, but :iagree:with all of them.

[SailorMom]

Doesn't sound like a friendship to begin with.....

Those are the type of people my DH and I RUN away from.

[mommaduck]

It is not a *friendship* when one party sees the other as a *project*.

 

I have btdt myself. I will never be another person's *project* again. Ever.

 

EXACTLY!

[MomOfOneFunOne]

I guess I,ll be the voice of dissent. And pls bear in mind that I,m typing on this awful nook and in a wee hurry so apostrophes are too hard to go looking for. Pls forgive.

 

It seems to me that Fred is doing what he feels is best for you spiritually. In his mind, and mine, spiritual welfare trumps all i,m not saying that he,s doing exactly the right thing .or wrong thing, for that matter. in your estimation but he seems to be trying very hard to do for you what he feels is right and the best for your spiritual welfare.

 

I am not saying that it is the best thing. I am only saying that he is doing what he feels strongly is best for you and that is at least genuine and caring.

 

I think also, pls forgive me for saying so, that we are only hearing one side of the story. I have no idea of the issue but I do know that scripture verses can and so very often are taken out of context and can be used that way to incorrectly bolster a point. Soooo not saying that is what you have done but that it may be what he feels you have done.

 

One thing that really stands out to me is that he is willing to study this issue out with you for the long haul. That is a commitment. Obviously not a commitment you are interested. It could be construed as controlling. It could also be construed as a loving commitment to your spiritual welfare.

 

Under such circumstances, I think a friendship like that is worth an investment.

[mathewsgang]

You obviously feel a pull for friendship, have you thought why that is? He doesn't seem to be a person you would want to befriend from your description, but that may be a little skewed, given the emotional blow you have taken. Did you consider if there was a lick of truth in any of the accusations? If there wasn't, dismiss it for what it was and try to go on. It's great that you are seeking the Lord in prayer for help in the forgiveness process--your help will come from Him! And I would have to agree with "Mr. Obnoxious" :) you need to be in a local church for your spiritual health and life. God gives us trials for a reason, to grow us to be more like Christ.

[Sputterduck]

I'm totally stuck on wanting to know what the debated issue is.:tongue_smilie:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm totally stuck on wanting to know what the debated issue is.:tongue_smilie:

 

She said that it was over women being able to speak in church - even to be able to give announcements.

[WTMCassandra]

Now what do we do about the wife? Just be polite? Continue to be friends? We're not great friends, but more than acquaintances.

 

I would be polite if she seeks you out, but I wouldn't seek her out. Probably the relationship will fade away.

[Sputterduck]

She said that it was over women being able to speak in church - even to be able to give announcements.

 

Oops. I missed that.

 

That's one of the sad hot button issues that tends to create a split between Christians. We have so many of those.

 

In my mind, there are basic foundational doctrines and beyond that framework let people do their best to interpret God's words to us to the best of their ability and leave them alone about it. A rift between Christians is worse than an honest misinterpretation of non-basic theological ideas.

 

If the man was always toxic to me, I would cut back on being around him but always keep my door open for emergencies and such because, even toxic, he's still a brother in Christ and I'd still be his sister in Christ. Families disagree at times, but family is still family.

[WTMCassandra]

I think I would agree with this. The elders at this church seem to think that "serving" others really means "telling them what to do," particularly their wives and children, especially unmarried daughters.

 

This is not healthy, even for a conservative church.

[WTMCassandra]

Well, the church had four elders. One was usually traveling, so we barely knew him, despite years of attendance. We don't really know his opinion on anything, so we have nothing against him. I already wrote about two of the elders.

 

The final elder didn't think what my husband said was helpful, but didn't seem offended or angry about it. He is a much more gentle/less controlling man than the other two. He emailed and wanted to know why we left. So have many other families. So far, all we've said to most of them is "We don't know what to say about it now...maybe some day we'll talk about it."

 

I sometimes wonder if we should tell this elder, because if others see the actions of the two as sin, then it needs to be dealt with. I'm not sure it would do much good and I don't want to "cause" a church split. Also, the stress of discussing it all would be very high for me and I already have a chronic illness that is made worse by stress.

 

A friend that left the church a year before us because he thought the elders were too controlling suggested to just leave everything alone there and move on.

 

I think it is significant that you describe this elder as "less controlling." This means the others are controlling. This whole thing is unhealthy.

 

I don't think you should tell the other elder. I think you will be perceived as stirring up trouble. People will likely not want to hear it.

 

I think you should tell everyone that you do not feel it is appropriate to discuss it, but that you wish them well. Period. Rinse. Repeat.

 

I think your friend who left a year ago is right on the money. Just leave and consider it Christian charity to keep quiet and not stir the pot. It's hard though--we always want to be understood and explain ourselves.

[Sputterduck]

Oh, and please don't ever feel the slightest guilt for leaving a church where the leadership is unhealthy. Church should be your respite from the world.

[Audrey]

After reading your whole long post, the thing that comes to mind is this: if you have to work THAT hard to justify something, it can't be very solid or worthwhile.

[Evergreen State Sue]

In my opinion, the only man who has authority over a woman is that woman's husband. If your husband believes something to be true and has sound biblical basis to back it up, then you and your husband should move your family to a church that supports your belief. Your husband needs to be mentored by someone he respects. I can't imagine respecting someone who disrespects my spouse.