Is cry it out my only option?

[joannqn]

My 20 month old does not sleep...unless my nipple is in her mouth or someone is holding her the entire time...literally.

 

For nap time every day I end up nursing her while she sleeps for two hours. If I try to leave so I can get stuff done, she wakes up. Then we all get to deal with the fall out when she goes into complete melt down status later. If I'm not home either DH and DD holds her while watching Dora the Explorer until she falls asleep and then are stuck in that position until she wakes up.

 

At night, it isn't uncommon for her to nurse between an hour and three hours before she finally falls asleep enough to let go. On VERY rare occasions, she'll let go in half an hour. If I force a let go before she lets go, she flails and screams. She usually wakes up and nurses a minimum of two more times through the night and is up by 6:30pm wanting to nurse.

 

I finally snapped on the overnight when I spent literally 5 hours nursing. I let her nurse 30 minutes and then she's done. This means that DH and I endured an hour and fifteen minutes of flailing and screaming. She would not accept being held and cuddled. She woke up twice more after she finally fell asleep and cried until she fell back asleep.

 

I'm determined to wean her down to one 30-minute nursing at bedtime and another 30-minute nursing at nap. But I worry about the damage I'm doing by making her cry it out since she refuses any kind of alternative.

 

I'm not sure how to make the nap time wean happen because when she melts down from not napping, she's impossible. She won't let anyone do anything; she literally forces herself with all of her weight and strength onto what you are working on. She'll pull the laptop screen down hard, risking breaking it, or shove it closed, or will lay on the keyboard. It takes considerable strength to push her off, and she doesn't stay off, she just tries harder. And it's not just the laptop, it's the book you're reading or the older sibling's school work, whatever. It's not that she wants attention, either. She's tired and really, really wants to go to sleep, but she won't go to sleep without nursing and she won't stay asleep until you lay there nursing her the entire time. She sleeps so lightly that you can't get away no matter how careful and quiet you are.

 

So, what would you do? I really need to reclaim my time and my body, and teach this girl to sleep!

 

My other three weren't like this.

[NanceXToo]

Have you ever read The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley? If not, you should definitely check it out!

 

ETA: Here's one for "toddlers and preschoolers"...

 

http://www.amazon.com/No-Cry-Sleep-Solution-Toddlers-Preschoolers/dp/0071444912/ref=pd_sim_b_6

 

 

But the original is this one:

 

http://www.amazon.com/No-Cry-Sleep-Solution-Gentle-Through/dp/0071381392/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300407420&sr=8-1

[LittleIzumi]

As she's 20 months old, can you tell WHY she needs this? Comfort? Sensory issues? Strong habit? Dd was a lot like that but she had oral sensory seeking issues (would also eat non-food items, etc). And she would get MAD if anyone tried to naysay her about a.n.y.t.h.i.n.g., so screaming in sheer anger for that would be right up her alley. :glare:

[jenL]

Personally, we would let her cry it out. I know others will disagree. By 20 months, she should be sleeping through the night and able to put herself back to sleep, imho, without needing to be nursed. At that age, waking in the middle of the night is not hunger related, so for your sanity, you probably want to teach her to settle herself on her own. She can do it. The same ideology goes for being able to fall asleep on her own at night. I would limit the nursing time before bed as well. My sister is more into attachment parenting than I was, and she limited her children's nursing before bed around 18-24 months. It was tough, but she needed her life back - she was utterly exhausted with getting up and them trying to nurse forever. :grouphug:

[Veritaserum]

In order to night wean my youngest (at over 2 years), we moved her from our bed and into a crib in another room. For the first week, I nursed her in the rocking chair for a set amount of time and then tucked her into her bed. She hated it and cried, of course, but I stuck it out. I slept on the floor in her room for a week. She woke up periodically to check that I was still there. Sometimes she asked to hold my hand through the crib bars. In the second week I started leaving after she fell asleep. Preventing a daytime nap helped her sleep better at night. Giving her a sippy cup of water satisfied any nighttime thirst.

 

Now that it has been a few months, we are both getting more sleep! She calls for me as soon as she is awake and sees light outside her window. At this point she only nurses at bedtime and when she wakes up. She enthusiastically says, "It's morning!" :)

[LizzyBee]

:grouphug: My youngest was a terrible sleeper and wouldn't sleep in her own bed all night until she was 3 1/2 yo. Getting her to go to sleep was torture; we basically had to pin her down and hold her still. I sensed that there was some kind of biological need even though I had no idea what or why. As it turns out, she has sensory issues among other things. She didn't insist on nursing; she just had to be touching someone. I don't have any suggestions, just :grouphug:

[MSNative]

You should def. cry it out. With a glass of wine. Oh, you meant should you let your baby cry it out. We went thru something sorta similar with our second. He cried no.matter.what. If you nursed him, held him, rocked him, walked him, etc. he cried. He did it for 2 years. Ugh. I stopped nursing, started feeding solid foods and formula and eventually he calmed down and slept thru the night. I would stop nursing before the nap. Put her in the crib and go do something else. Try for a week and see what happens. With my ds, it took 3 weeks to get the nap squared away. It was awful and I cried about as much as he did. Once he got to the point he napped without screaming, we worked on nighttime. I made sure he was full - so there was no question in my mind that he could be hungry. Then I did a nighttime routine that I wanted to keep up - rocking, snuggling, reading then bed. Nothing more. It took almost a month. Happy to say, he is a great sleeper now. I feel for you! It's rough when you aren't getting sleep!

[LittleIzumi]

Oh, and that who needed to be touching/nursing now sleeps fine--if she's in the same bed as her sister. While they have their own beds, they pretty much always drag pillows/blankets into the same bed & crash together. Watching her as she slept when younger, one hand would creep out to make sure her sister was still there about once a minute even when she was asleep!!

[HerdingCats]

This was my dd at that age. This sounds like a drastic solution, but take a weekend and go somewhere if you can. I was in a situation where I had a family emergency and went out of town for three days. I was stunned that my dh had so little trouble with her. Once I got back she had adjusted to the point that it was easier to get her down without it. She's fourteen now and perfectly fine;-). Good luck, and don't worry!

[kchara]

I'm another vote for crying it out. My first three kids, only my husband could get to sleep for the entire first year of their lives. Well, #1 and #3, anyway. When #2 was 9 months old, DH deployed. I thought I was going to lose it at first. The child would. not. sleep!! He ended up crying for about a week, then he was fine. He's been a great sleeper ever since (he's 8 now). I didn't have the nursing issue on top of it, but I very much feel you on the lack of sleep. :grouphug:

[Allearia]

With my second, he was co-sleeping until he was around 2. I had enough. I just couldn't do it anymore. So I put the crib (which he had not used until now) in his brother's room, put a crib tent on, and slept on a mattress on the floor next to his bed. I felt so terrible and he cried so much, but I felt better being there with him. Maybe that made it worse, I don't know, but I didn't feel right letting him stay alone. I had done that with my first and I felt bad. (Please I am not judging anyone who does this - maybe I should have - I just couldn't.) Maybe something like this would make it easier for you, if you were there but she she couldn't nurse and had to learn to sleep on her own? No matter what it is going to be very hard for you both but at some point you have to for your own sanity. And I don't say that lightly... at that point it was a very serious matter for me. Remember that your sleep is very important too, especially homeschooling with other children. She will get through it and turn out fine.

[StephanieZ]

My first was a champion nurser. The way I managed to wean her from night nursing was to have dh take over night wakings for a few days. He would offer her a sippy cup of water and cuddle/soothe her. We'd put her in a twin mattress on the floor at that point, so he could hold her, put on some music and dance a bit with her, rock her in the rocking chair, then just lay down with her when he was too tired to do anything else. After a couple nights, it was much easier. . . after 4-6 nights, it was all over. Now, she wasn't a screamer when we did this (although she did ask for me a lot and cry some), but she was also younger (12 mos). The older they are, the harder IME. But, even a 20 mo old should get it within a few days.

 

Personally, I think that after 6 mos or so, they don't need food at night. So, if your dh is amenable, I'd commit to a week of dh only doing night wakings. . . At least an 8 hour stretch. I know it's hard, but it was the only way we could do it. We timed it so that dh was on vacation (he was in grad school; we did it over Christmas) so that it was feasible for us. If you can even get a 2-3 night weekend to do it, you might be amazed at the progress made in those few days. . . and if dh is a tough and committed team player, he might be able to handle the subsequent few days as the wakings should be a lot shorter by then.

 

(I am lucky in that dh is very much a team player and went along with this.)

 

Have you ever watched SuperNanny on hulu? She has a good system for easing the kids into bedtime, gently but firmly. Essentially, you put them in bed and say goodnight. The first time they come out, you gently but firmly return them to bed with a very brief (one to three words) good night. Then, just repeat, repeat, repeat as needed. It seems to work exceedingly well.

 

For younger kids who can't get out of bed/room, she does something where the parent sits on the floor until the kid falls asleep, but I don't remember exactly how it goes. Main point seems to be to be 'there' for the kid, but to not engage/talk/etc AT ALL once it is bed time.

[Mert]

When ds was 23 months, he was still waking every 1.5-2 hours to nurse throughout the night. I'd only had 6 continuous hours of sleep a hand full of times in those 2 years because ds COULD NOT put himself back to sleep. After reading Elizabeth Pantley's book and this article by Dr. Jay Gordon, we came up with system done mostly by dh to help him learn how to sleep on his own. Hope and pray that you are able to help your little one!!

 

http://drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

 

Have you ever read The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley?

[Quad Shot Academy]

This sounds like a drastic solution, but take a weekend and go somewhere if you can. I was stunned that my dh had so little trouble with her. Once I got back she had adjusted to the point that it was easier to get her down without it.

 

:iagree: We have always gone on "weaning vacations". All the cues to nurse are not there and whenever babe wants it, I pass them off to hubby. He also takes the night shift and lets me sleep. It has always worked well for us, but just you going away would work too.

[Dawn in OH]

My third child was a lot like your daughter. I finally just had to do Cry It Out, for the sake of my own sanity and teaching him to sleep on his own. He was my most lovey and cuddly child and it tortured me to do it, but it needed to be done.

 

My husband works nights, and we did the Cry It Out when he was off of work for a few days because I never would have managed it on my own. I have a huge soft spot for that child. Every time he cried, my husband would go into the room and comfort him for a minute or two while I sat in the living room in tears. Within a week we had him both going to sleep on his own at night and for naps. In fact, he became a great napper. He's 3 1/2 now and I wake up with him in my bed every morning, but he goes to sleep in his own bed now. He's still just as snugly and loving as ever.

[zaichiki]

We recently got away from the all night nursing marathons with our youngest.

 

Here's how we did the transition:

First we read then we nursed to sleep. A week later we switched it around and allowed her to nurse for a little while and then read. (For some time in between, dh would read to her while I nursed her.) She began to connect this one particular book (we have two copies of it) with her bedtime ritual.

 

After nursing and reading, dh puts her in her crib and rubs her back for a little while. Then we leave the room. It took a few weeks for her fully transition to and feel comfortable with this new routine, but it has saved my sanity.

 

Now that she falls asleep in her crib, on her own, she no longer wakes at night. (And on the rare occasion that she does, dh will go in to her b/c if I do she only wants one thing.)

[EKS]

I let both of my kids cry it out. One was around 6 months and the other was at 3 months. I know that a lot of people disagree with this, but it worked and they're fine. My younger son cried for 3 hours the first night, 1 hour the second, and none the third. And his waking at night went from 6-8 times down to once. And this was a 3 month old.

 

There is no physical reason for a child of 20 months to be nursing so much. She needs to learn how to soothe herself back to sleep at night. I don't know any other way other than the cry it out thing, but if there is one, I would try it first.

[blessed3x]

:grouphug: I sensed that there was some kind of biological need even though I had no idea what or why. As it turns out, she has sensory issues among other things. She didn't insist on nursing; she just had to be touching someone. I don't have any suggestions, just :grouphug:

 

 

:grouphug: from me too.

Ds8 was a lot like your daughter, and like this poster I sensed a need too. He has some sensory issues and also had to be touching someone. As an infant he also nursed a lot, but was happy to sleep between us and touch my arm. We tried many things, but ended up letting him co-sleep just so we could sleep.

Find what works for you and your family. Your sleep is important.

:grouphug:

[Mallory]

I wouldn't cry it out and my kids are terrible sleepers.

 

My oldest two nursed at night until a little after three, but they did both go for hours and were only waking up once or twice by 2 or so.

 

My third was a really awful sleeper. I don't think he went more then an hour or so even at 3yo. But now at 5 (his birthday is today!) he lays down in his own room and goes to sleep by himself!

 

My 4th actually does okay. She is 2 1/2. While she still wakes up once most nights (but not all!), she just gets in bed with me and goes back to sleep!!!

 

I also don't mind at all if they take a long time to nurse to sleep because that is my time to read! I feel kind of shorted if they go to sleep in like 15, then I feel like I should be doing something else even if it is just sleeping.

 

I do think spring is a good time to wean if that is what you want to do. Going out side and playing hard can be more fun then nursing and can make it easier to fall asleep.

[TJinLOCA]

My experience was much like zaichiki's. My youngest was very clingy, nursed constantly, and would never go to sleep on his own. At 22 months I just couldn't take it anymore - I weaned him, and started putting him to bed by rocking him in the rocking chair, reading him a story, and then putting him in his crib. I tried having him cry it out, but I found out that if I just stayed in his room (in the rocking chair next to his crib) until he fell asleep, he'd go to sleep much faster. I wouldn't take him out of the crib, and I wouldn't talk to him except to say "Time for sleep now," and then I'd ignore him. It only took a few nights before he figured out that there was really nothing for him to do except go to sleep.

 

What's funny is he's now the most well-adjusted of the three of them ... very independent, never has issues going to sleep or waking up in the night ... while his 17 year old sister actually climbed in bed with me last night because of a bad dream! :D

[joannqn]

We'll she already co-sleeps. She definitely not happy just to co-sleep since she cried for over an hour when I wouldn't let her nurse more than 30 minutes.

 

Unfortunately, we do not have a crib or a bed for her, nor the money to go out and buy one. My hope is to eventually buy a new bed for DH and I because our bed is almost 12 years old and pass down our old one to the girls to share. DD really wants our bed and is willing to share to get it.

 

I'm schedule to do a weaning weekend in mid-November. I go on two retreats a year in which children under 2 are allowed to tag along. The first retreat after they are two, they get weaned. I was hoping to just reduce the nursing before then.

 

I'll have to see what I can do about working in a routine. Right now, we put the other kids to bed and watch an adult TV show together. The young one stays up with us and either nurses or looks at books in my lap.

[Veritaserum]

We'll she already co-sleeps. She definitely not happy just to co-sleep since she cried for over an hour when I wouldn't let her nurse more than 30 minutes.

 

Unfortunately, we do not have a crib or a bed for her, nor the money to go out and buy one. My hope is to eventually buy a new bed for DH and I because our bed is almost 12 years old and pass down our old one to the girls to share. DD really wants our bed and is willing to share to get it.

 

I'm schedule to do a weaning weekend in mid-November. I go on two retreats a year in which children under 2 are allowed to tag along. The first retreat after they are two, they get weaned. I was hoping to just reduce the nursing before then.

 

I'll have to see what I can do about working in a routine. Right now, we put the other kids to bed and watch an adult TV show together. The young one stays up with us and either nurses or looks at books in my lap.

 

Elizabeth Pantley's books include suggestions for all options, including continuing to co-sleep. Another idea would be to see if you could borrow a PackNPlay from somebody (portable crib)....

 

ETA: For a little while dd liked a "bed" we made on the floor of our room using pillows and blankets. I'm not sure if your dd would go for that....

[WiseOwlKnits]

My DD was like this. It was awful. A version of CIO was what stopped her. She still doesn't like sleeping, but at least she can put herself to sleep on her own now. :)

[NatashainDFW]

Read The Happiest Baby (or toddler) on the Block. This book made transitioning my youngest to the bed much easier. My oldest would not let us lay him down but trying the methods in the happiest baby really helped my DD. She is now 30 months and is a champion sleeper both at night and at nap time. She rarely gets out of bed once she gets her goodnight loves although her brother is one to get up 1000000000 times before going to sleep.

[Koerarmoca]

I recommend "sleep easy solutions" (i forget the Author) it is for sleep problems from birth to age 5. It's milder than Crying it out buy not as mild as the no cry sleep solutions. This was my middle ground comfort zone. My first 2 where decent sleepers but number 3 & 4 gave me a run for my money. I hope you find what works for you.

[ktgrok]

What you are talking about is not cry it out. Cry it out is when you ignore them while they cry. If you are there shushing her, patting her back, etc, that is not cry it out. That is what my friends call "being a sleep doula". In other words, you know she is the only one that can do it, but you will be there to be sympathetic. You just want to night wean. When we night weaned, around that age, I told him that "me me's have to go night night, you can have me me in the morning". Actually, come to think of it, before I did that I limited the duration. So I would gradually cut back until I only let him nurse for only a few minutes, then tell him to roll over and sleep while I patted his back. If he wanted to nurse I did, but again only for a minute or so. When he was used to that I told him they went night night, and he fussed, but let me pat his back after a bit. Now, he was cosleeping so all that was easier than putting him back to bed. This baby sleeps in her crib because she hates to cosleep. She was also a "I can only sleep in your arms" girl.

 

What worked for that was another gradual plan suggested by a friend with twins. She said that every time I tried to put her down and she woke up I was training her to wake up, to take really short naps. She said that first I needed to spend a few weeks letting her take a long nap in my arms, at the same time about every day. That would train her body to get used to sleeping for that long every day. Then, and only then, I started trying to lay her down. And believe it or not, it worked!!!! She now takes decent length naps every day, and usually in her crib!!! So you might want to try that.

[ChristusG]

I'm an extended nursing, co-sleeping mama....I've never had one nurse constantly through the night to the degree that your daughter wants to do, but I've had experiences on a smaller scale.

 

What I'd probably do is this....do you have another room you and baby can sleep in for a week (assuming that you want to continue co-sleeping)? Even if you do not, I'd rearrange kids in order to have your own room for a week (could be two). Explain to her, if you think she will understand, that she cannot nurse all night long and that she can nurse to sleep but then the milk goes away for the night. Nurse her to sleep and then lie her down. If she wakes, soothe her, but without nursing her. If she cries with you there, so be it. You are not letting her cry it out if you are right there with her, soothing her. Continue this for as long as it takes. Keep reminding that the milk is night-night....or something of the sort.

 

Does she take a pacifier? This is the main reason I introduced a pacifier to my kids early. I wanted something to sooth them at night other than nursing.

[Ellie]

Although I'm not generally a fan of letting babies cry it out, sometimes you just gotta.

 

So, yeah, I'll be on the cry-it-out side.

 

And you both have my sympathy. :grouphug:

[Bird Girl]

I would let her cry it out--but I believe in cribs for babies. So no help there.

 

Two things I would recommend: the first is Marc Weisbluth's Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child. He is a sleep researcher and pediatrician, so his book is mostly about how sleep patterns develop in babies, and what is a healthy sleep pattern for babies and children. I recommend this book even if you decide you do not want to cry it out--because so many of the things that he writes about seems counter-intuitive, such as that sleep begets sleep so the better a child naps, the more easily they fall asleep, and that early bedtimes make for later, not earlier wakeups.

 

The second thing I would recommend is a pacifier, because I personally would be crawling out of my skin if my toddler was nursing that much. I would cut her off of nursing at both nap time and bedtime, and just say, "Nursing has gone to bed, you need to go to bed, now here's your paci if you want something to suck." I would also prevent her from taking the paci out of the bed, because you don't want to create a monster paci habit at this age, but seriously, two hours of nursing has got to be uncomfortable.

 

Good luck. Adult time is so important to a marriage and healthy functioning. You can get it back!

[ShutterBug]

I'm determined to wean her down to one 30-minute nursing at bedtime and another 30-minute nursing at nap. But I worry about the damage I'm doing by making her cry it out since she refuses any kind of alternative.

 

 

 

What damage? Was there a study I missed where damage from crying it out has been documented? I don't think I've ever met (or heard) of anyone who was permanently damaged from crying it out, and I'm pretty sure it's a technique that has been used by sleep deprived parents for many a century.

 

I'm in the cry it out camp :001_smile: .

[Embassy]

I had to wean my daughter from nursing to sleep at that age because of her teeth. She had major damage from the nonstop nursing. I bought her a special cup/bottle, brushed her teeth, filled it with water, and sat down in a rocking chair with her with a show on. It took hours and lots of crying the first few weeks. Eventually she would go to sleep quickly and I would carry her to bed. She stayed asleep much better when she was able to go to sleep without nursing. When she awoke I would rock/hold/walk her back to sleep if I was still awake. If I was in bed I just brought her to bed with me and let her nurse:tongue_smilie:

 

When I first started I would nurse on the first awakening. As she became more adapted to going to sleep without nursing I started eliminating the nursings on wake-ups. I found it easier to stop the nursing to sleep first because a recently awakened child is more agitated.

 

For naps I routinely put my daughter in a backpack carrier and she would fall asleep from the motion. She stayed there for her entire naptime. She stopped napping several months ago.

 

I'm about to totally wean her as she nears the age of 3. Just this week we had a major milestone. She is going to sleep at night without her usual nursing before brushing her teeth. She has opted for a cookie, milk, and story instead. She still nurses a couple other times a day, but she is aware that nursing will end soon.

 

It sounds like you have another way to put her to sleep right now with the Dora show. I would use that to your advantage and maybe try rocking/walking/holding in a dark room with Dora playing. As for crying it out I think there is a big difference in leaving a child alone to cry and holding a crying child.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Wehomeschool

[LittleIzumi]

What damage? Was there a study I missed where damage from crying it out has been documented? I don't think I've ever met (or heard) of anyone who was permanently damaged from crying it out, and I'm pretty sure it's a technique that has been used by sleep deprived parents for many a century.

 

I'm in the cry it out camp :001_smile: .

 

There are studies about how extended crying raises cortisol levels in the brain, which can damage nerve cells in the brain. How much damage occurs if it's just a few days of cry-it-out hasn't been tested however--the study was more aimed at neglect of the babies.

 

I am extremely opposed to cry-it-out before the baby has developed object permanence (because they think you no longer exist/have disappeared forever--how terrifying for them), but we did cry-it-out with dd when she was 4 years old & refused to transition back to her bedroom after sleeping in the cooler living room for summertime. Two days of her crying in her room at bedtime & she got over it.

[AmethystMoon]

http://askdrsears.com/html/7/T070200.asp

 

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/04.09/ChildrenNeedTou.html

 

http://www.atlc.org/Resources/commons_newspaper.php

 

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/linda_folden_palmer2.html

 

http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/07/05/no-cry-it-out/

 

I'm not trying to start a debate. I just thought I'd post a little food for thought. CIO goes against every fiber in my being. I beleive there is always another solution. The No Cry Sleep Solution really helped us out.

[Slartibartfast]

I wouldn't use CIO, I would do Elizabeth Pantley.

 

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/0071381392.php?nid=387&isbn=0071381392

 

But only allowing 2 30 minute sessions isn't always realistic. There are different things which will cause the baby's needs to ebb and flow just like anyone else going trhough a bunch of changes. If your toddler is getting molars they are likely to want to nurse quite a lot, it is the same with developmental milestones.

 

I think trying to reduce the number of sessions could be what is making her nurse so much when she gets a chance. If she is *determined* to get a certain amount of nursing time then you could be fighting an uphill battle.

 

I would increase the number of times I nurse, even if that means offering, then I would do the "pantley pull off" at night.

 

How long has this been going on? Is this her "habit" or has it gotten worse? It is possible she is getting molars?

 

I am sorry, I know it is hard. :grouphug:

Edited March 18, 2011 by Sis

[DarlaS]

I wouldn't use CIO, I would do Elizabeth Pantley.

 

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/0071381392.php?nid=387&isbn=0071381392

 

:iagree:

[Terabith]

Will she take a pacifier? I know that's an unpopular option, but it was the only thing that saved my sanity with my VERY VERY VERY oral child. She still nursed a LOT, but it would allow me to very very slowly ease my arm from under her on the bed. With the pacifier, this was vaguely possible. On occassion.

 

(Is it bad that sometimes I would drink a shot of whiskey sometimes in the vague hope of her sleeping deeply enough to allow me to extricate myself?)

[Slartibartfast]

Will she take a pacifier? I know that's an unpopular option, but it was the only thing that saved my sanity with my VERY VERY VERY oral child. She still nursed a LOT, but it would allow me to very very slowly ease my arm from under her on the bed. With the pacifier, this was vaguely possible. On occassion.

 

 

I am not totally opposed to pacifiers after 6 weeks or so but some babies are offended by them and think you are trying to trick them. (my kids :lol:)

 

(Is it bad that sometimes I would drink a shot of whiskey sometimes in the vague hope of her sleeping deeply enough to allow me to extricate myself?)

 

Nope, do it if it makes you feel better but only one shot is REALLY unlikely to effect the baby. The amount of alcohol in your blood is the same as the amount of alcohol in your breastmilk. You would have to be blitzed for there to be a significant amount (and getting completely blitzed is not safe)

Edited March 18, 2011 by Sis

[AndyJoy]

I'm in a similar place as you with my almost 18-month-old.

 

I have no solution for naps yet, as he wakes up and freaks out the instant I try to pop him off. Thus, I spend 1.5-2 hrs. each day sitting in a recliner with my laptop next to me.

 

He usually nurses to sleep, then wakes at 1:00 and won't go back to sleep so he joins me in my bed, where he goes right back to sleep. Then he wakes between 4:00 and 6:00 and nurses.

 

Two nights ago, I had had enough with trying to get him to sleep. He nursed for 30 minutes then was attempting gymnastics while attached. I popped him off and tried to get him to just snuggle and sleep, but he wanted to stand up and jump, throw books, kick me in the stomach, etc. After 30 minutes of that, I took him to his bed.

 

I tried sitting on the floor near him but he alternated between getting off the bed while giggling and crying. After 30 minutes of that, I decided to let him cry for while and see what happened. I've never been able to get him to calm down when I'm in the room if he's not getting what he wants. If I leave, he moves on.

 

For 5 minutes, he cried while standing by the door. I went in and put him back in bed.

 

After 5 more minutes of crying by the door, I put him back in bed.

 

5 minutes later, he was asleep. I figured he was on the floor, so I slipped in to move him, but he had actually climbed back in bed!

 

He woke up twice in the night. The first time I laid him back down and he stopped crying after 5 minutes. The second time he went back to sleep himself after 5 minutes without me going in.

 

Last night I nursed him for 20 minutes, then I laid him down and he went right to sleep, waking up twice for about 5 minutes each time.

 

Hopefully tonight will go just as well!

 

I don't know if any of this is helpful in your situation, but you might try 5 minute intervals of CIO and see if it works.

[Bird Girl]

From the Harvard link above:

 

The pair examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds -- even separate rooms -- and not responding quickly to their cries may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.

 

I've heard of some judgemental comments in my time as a parent, but I must say, the notion that putting babies to sleep in separate beds causes PTSD is truly laughable. We must have some pretty delicate children if the mere act of putting them to sleep in a crib will cause them to have the same psychological problems that soldiers suffer from.

 

I've never read anything from a non-Attachment Parenting guru that suggests that teaching children to soothe themselves to sleep and expecting them to sleep in their own bed causes any damage at all. Instead, it allows them to become well-rested, and to be more ready for attachment behaviors during the daytime.

 

For a more scientific look at Attachment Theory (which is quite separate from Attachment Parenting) I recommend the book Becoming Attached; First Relationships and How They Shape Our Capacity to Love by Robert Karen.

[Slartibartfast]

If you keep trying eventually they will sleep..

 

I use Elizabeth Pantley and it works great but like CIO or any other type of "training" you have to be consistent. It isn't for only when you are hysterical, you have to do it even when you are just hanging out at the computer and don't mind so much.

 

My dd would have those HHUGGEE nursing sessions at the computer and I allowed it but she would also want to nurse for hours in the bed. I got lazy and I paid the price. I do pop ds off and he sleeps for longer sessions than dd ever did at that age. (he still wakes every two-three hours but I think either dh or his own snoring are waking him :glare:) but I can generally get him back to sleep with just about ten minutes of nursing.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Sis

[Cindyg]

I had that same baby. He's 13 years old now. He was an exhausting baby. I don't really have any advice for you because we never worked it out. But I wanted you to know that somebody understands (me).

[Terabith]

I would definitely try Elizabeth Pantley before CIO.

 

Yeah, I know the alcohol wasn't going to help her sleep better. It did a nice job of helping ME care less about being chained to a 20 pound child by the boob. :D

 

I'm sorry. No real good ideas, other than the pacifier. We didn't do it the first few weeks, but it was really nice later. (Of course, she's almost six and still using it, so it's not a perfect solution either. But, sanity wise I can take a child with healthy teeth and a pacifier for a few hours at night.)

[Zuzu822]

From the Harvard link above:

 

The pair examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds -- even separate rooms -- and not responding quickly to their cries may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.

 

I've heard of some judgemental comments in my time as a parent, but I must say, the notion that putting babies to sleep in separate beds causes PTSD is truly laughable. We must have some pretty delicate children if the mere act of putting them to sleep in a crib will cause them to have the same psychological problems that soldiers suffer from.

 

It's not putting babies to bed in separate spaces that causes stress and potentially life-long problems, it's ignoring their cries. As another poster pointed out, very young babies have no sense of object permanence. I can think of nothing crueler than forcing a young baby to stay in another room or bed alone, in the dark, against their will, when they have no idea where you went or if you're ever coming back.

 

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth for any infant, but clearly YMMV. I believe there's nothing to be gained by forcing something on a young child before they're developmentally ready, and that can vary by child. My oldest at times continues to be very concerned about being lonely at night. So some nights he needs a parent to lay down with him at bedtime, sometimes not.

 

I'd second another poster's recommendation of Dr. Jay Gordon. My second was similar to the OP's (though without such extreme crying), and a modified Gordan approach worked.

 

Also, patting, shushing, etc. is not CIO. She knows you're there even if she's mad.

[Slartibartfast]

Yeah, I know the alcohol wasn't going to help her sleep better. It did a nice job of helping ME care less about being chained to a 20 pound child by the boob. :D

 

Ah, well the shot is still worth it IMO. :)

[scrappyhappymama]

I'm an extended nursing, co-sleeping mama....I've never had one nurse constantly through the night to the degree that your daughter wants to do, but I've had experiences on a smaller scale.

 

What I'd probably do is this....do you have another room you and baby can sleep in for a week (assuming that you want to continue co-sleeping)? Even if you do not, I'd rearrange kids in order to have your own room for a week (could be two). Explain to her, if you think she will understand, that she cannot nurse all night long and that she can nurse to sleep but then the milk goes away for the night. Nurse her to sleep and then lie her down. If she wakes, soothe her, but without nursing her. If she cries with you there, so be it. You are not letting her cry it out if you are right there with her, soothing her. Continue this for as long as it takes. Keep reminding that the milk is night-night....or something of the sort.

 

Does she take a pacifier? This is the main reason I introduced a pacifier to my kids early. I wanted something to sooth them at night other than nursing.

 

I think this is all great advice! Going to another room, so the two of you don't disturb everyone else, and staying with her, and reaffirming that nursing is for night-night and not for all night. I would prbably also incorporate a paci, if she'll take it. I know it sounds crazy to introduce it at a time most folks would want it weaned off, but I do believe some wee ones are just excessively oral and it can be very soothing to them, and give mom a bit of a break. Two of my boys kept their pacis until they were three, and the other two took it only sporadically and not at all after 9 months or so.

 

Another suggestion that I'd make is trying the Baby Whisperer method. I'm not a fan of all her recommendations (especially regarding breastfeeding), but I do think her "sleep training" is gentle enough, if one has a stubborn little baby that needs a little nudging in that area. What worked for me was focusing on naptime first, and not at all on bedtime at first. At naptime, I'd refrain from nursing him to sleep, but lay him down for a nap awake as soon as he displayed any sleepy cues. Of course at first, he was like a weeble wobble- I'd lay him down and he'd pop right back up. But I was persistent, and would lay him down, over and over and over and over. If he lay there without fussing, I'd leave the room. But as soon as he'd fuss, I'd come back, soothe him, and lie him back down again. I think that the first few days, he barely napped at all. Then on successive days, it would take 20-30 minutes of the up and down routine, but finally he'd fall asleep. In less than a week, I could lay him down for a nap drowsy, and he'd fall asleep without fussing.

 

The Baby Whisperer author recommends never nursing baby to sleep, or else they will associate nursing with falling asleep, and will "need" it to fall back asleep when they awaken mid-night. BUT, I was not willing to give up nursing my babies to sleep at bedtime. So I stuck to only putting them to sleep awake for naptimes, or on the rare occasions they'd still be awake after nursing their fill at bedtime. And happily, learning to "put themselves to sleep" at naptime carried over to waking in the night as well. So once we had it down at naptime, then night wakings and nursings drastically reduced as well.

 

 

What damage? Was there a study I missed where damage from crying it out has been documented? I don't think I've ever met (or heard) of anyone who was permanently damaged from crying it out, and I'm pretty sure it's a technique that has been used by sleep deprived parents for many a century.

 

I'm in the cry it out camp :001_smile: .

 

I don't want to debate CIO or other parent's choices, but since you asked, there is some research that does document potential brain damage related to CIO: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8636950.stm

[blondeviolin]

My littlest doesn't nurse anymore, but she is constantly waking up for milk or drink in the middle of the night. Lately it has been what seems like every hour. And she is not the kid that wakes up and just asks sweetly. Oh, no. She gets ANGRY and DOES NOT want me to soothe her. She just WANTS A DRINK of milk, not water, thankyouverymuch.

 

And you know what? She's nearly 20-months (on the 29th). I have no clue what's causing her to wake so frequently lately, but she is capable of sleeping longer stretches so I'm just riding with it right now. Maybe it's just a developmental thing since my child of the same age is going through it too? If not, know you're not the only one... :hug:

 

Also, definitely check for molars growing in. My littlest is getting her tops and I think that is playing into her issues big time.

[abacus2]

In my mind, I see 20 months as being past the possibility of cry-it-out as I understand it. A 20 month old is old enough to understand when you explain some limits to her. She's likely to be sad or upset or angry that she doesn't get her way, but that's like an older child, not like a baby who is "taught" to sleep by being left to cry at bedtime. I would spend a lot of time talking to her about what is going to change and then enforce the new limits matter-of-factly and as comfortably for her as possible. I've noticed a marked difference in my 1 year olds when I take the time to explain things to them like I would an older kid even though they aren't responding to me with many words yet.

[Jenny in Florida]

I know this one's controversial, and I will say we didn't follow it exactly as recommended, but we had good experiences with "Ferberizing." (I hate that term, since it sounds like something industrial.)

 

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Solve-Your-Childs-Sleep-Problems/Richard-Ferber/e/9780743201636/?itm=2&USRI=solve+your+child%27s+sleep+problems

 

To me, it seemed like a balance between "crying it out," which I could never, never do, and being a human pacifier 24 hours a day.

 

Essentially, the idea is to put the baby to bed while she is awake, say goodnight and do whatever little rituals you want to establish, then leave the room.

 

If the baby starts to cry, you let it go for five minutes, then go back in and sooth her. You don't pick her up, but pat her and say goodnight again, then go back out of the room.

 

I don't remember all of the details and schedules, but what happens is that you gradually increase the amount of time you wait before going in to sooth her. I think you go up by a minute or two each night. The goal is to help the kiddo learn to go to sleep on her own. But, unlike being left alone to cry it out, you're not abandoning her completely.

 

As I recall, my daughter was "done" in about four days. She was about a year old, I think.

 

My son took a little longer, but it might have been because they were sharing a room at the time. We would wait to put her to bed until he was asleep, but obviously, if he woke up to company, it interfered with the "process." I know he was sleeping through most of the time within a week. He was also right about a year old.

 

This requires common sense, of course. And I would never follow a method in a book that conflicted with what my heart was telling me. But, for us, it was good and valuable advice.

[Lovedtodeath]

Have you ever read The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley? If not, you should definitely check it out!

 

ETA: Here's one for "toddlers and preschoolers"...

 

http://www.amazon.com/No-Cry-Sleep-Solution-Toddlers-Preschoolers/dp/0071444912/ref=pd_sim_b_6

 

 

But the original is this one:

 

http://www.amazon.com/No-Cry-Sleep-Solution-Gentle-Through/dp/0071381392/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300407420&sr=8-1

This is good.

 

The Baby Whisperer. The Baby Whisperer combined with the above was the perfect solution for my family. Get the book, join the forum. The Baby Whisperer has a lot of gentle tricks and methods that are not as bad as CIO. She is a firm believer in babies sleeping in their own beds. Some of her methods are similar to the ferberizing above, but... more gentle. Not as gentle (ie more effective) as the No Cry Sleep Solution. Then she has some that are completely harmless.

 

Here is one that worked for me: You either tickle or quickly startle a sleeping baby 5-10 minutes before they would naturally wake up. The baby is startled enough to stir, but not actually awaken. The sleep cycle then restarts! After doing this for about 5 days they naturally sleep through that time.

 

Personally, we would let her cry it out. I know others will disagree. By 20 months, she should be sleeping through the night and able to put herself back to sleep, imho, without needing to be nursed. At that age, waking in the middle of the night is not hunger related, so for your sanity, you probably want to teach her to settle herself on her own. Wrong! If you are used to eating all night long can you suddenly stop? The change needs to be gradual so that she won't be hungry. Because, trust me, she is. Let's say I eat 2,000 calories per day, but half of them are at night. I decided I won't eat at night... um... that is half of my calories! She can do it. The same ideology goes for being able to fall asleep on her own at night. I would limit the nursing time before bed as well. My sister is more into attachment parenting than I was, and she limited her children's nursing before bed around 18-24 months. It was tough, but she needed her life back - she was utterly exhausted with getting up and them trying to nurse forever. :grouphug:

Edited March 18, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[LittleIzumi]

Dh has suggested Nyquil :lol: but of course drugs/alcohol that cause drowsiness are high risk factors for cosleeping. I have been tempted :glare: but no, lol. I don't know if melatonin counts in that category though. I've been thinking about taking some for insomnia but only if it's cosleeping safe....