The Ignore List Issue

[Osmosis Mom]

OK, so somebody mentioned on the other thread (that got closed by our Super-Nanny) that using the Ignore button just makes life easier for her in order to not be bothered by people she couldn't care less about (paraphrasing).

 

Now a few of us have been on this board (pathetically??) for many, many years and have noticed the less personal development from cyberspace. I personally feel bored with posts that have a ton of disclaimers, essentially asking for only like-minded souls to bother reply (actually *requesting* only people with the same mindset to reply). Well, if you want to talk to like-minded people, do so IRL, no? The whole essence and virtual beauty of this particular has always been the diversity, mutual respect and exchange and people learning things along the way.

 

When you use something like the Ignore button, then you only exaceberate your own little vacuum. Which is fine -if you lived in a circle!!! I have over the years been amazed by the openmindedness of people here and have myself learned a lot. In that way the forum has been a passifistic tool for enhancement of the much delayed World Peace.....

[5kidsforME]

OK, so somebody mentioned on the other thread (that got closed by our Super-Nanny) that using the Ignore button just makes life easier for her in order to not be bothered by people she couldn't care less about (paraphrasing).

 

Now a few of us have been on this board (pathetically??) for many, many years and have noticed the less personal development from cyberspace. I personally feel bored with posts that have a ton of disclaimers, essentially asking for only like-minded souls to bother reply (actually *requesting* only people with the same mindset to reply). Well, if you want to talk to like-minded people, do so IRL, no? The whole essence and virtual beauty of this particular has always been the diversity, mutual respect and exchange and people learning things along the way.

 

When you use something like the Ignore button, then you only exaceberate your own little vacuum. Which is fine -if you lived in a circle!!! I have over the years been amazed by the openmindedness of people here and have myself learned a lot. In that way the forum has been a passifistic tool for enhancement of the much delayed World Peace.....

 

 

So you want people to: not put disclaimers, not to ask for advice from like minded individuals and also you do not want people to use the ignore feature?

 

:001_huh:

[unsinkable]

OK, I only want people to reply who do not have pictures of cute sleeping babies in their avatar.....

 

:lol: Just kidding, of course!

 

I AGREE!

 

I have learned that there are threads that upset me more than people (an example is threads about eating issues.) But I have a mindset to "look, don't post." For me, I realized how deep of an issue it was when I looked at my reaction to the threads. Does that make sense? As I realized how deeply I was hurt by food issues, I was able to address them IRL. But if I just ignored it, I'd have not had the chance. Does that make sense?

[Catherine]

sadness of people seeming to need to avoid contact with others who are different from themselves, rather than respectfully listening to them and learning from them.

 

I agree, Nadia, it is sad.

[Osmosis Mom]

OK, I only want people to reply who do not have pictures of cute sleeping babies in their avatar.....

 

:lol: Just kidding, of course!

 

I AGREE!

 

I have learned that there are threads that upset me more than people (an example is threads about eating issues.) But I have a mindset to "look, don't post." For me, I realized how deep of an issue it was when I looked at my reaction to the threads. Does that make sense? As I realized how deeply I was hurt by food issues, I was able to address them IRL. But if I just ignored it, I'd have not had the chance. Does that make sense?

 

 

It does make sense. I often read threads and mull things over in my head, learning a few things along the way although never actually responding.

 

To the other poster I meant -in case it wasn't clear?- that we should learn from eachother respectfully and that disclaimers and ignore buttons should not be necessary (and might encourage "tribes").

[Jackie in AR]

No, thank you, Nadia.

 

I feel quite capable of determining for myself which posts I'll choose to read.

[Danestress]

I know that people often say in posts that no one ever changes their mind based on what they read in thread, but for me that simply isn't true. I have slowly changed my mind on a number of issues from reading here. I think it has changed me in some ways.

[LaxMom]

I think both approaches have their merits, but can be taken too far.

 

The "two paragraph disclaimer" as Rosie put it, can be helpful in verbalising what, exactly, a poster is looking for, particularly when starting a thread with a hot topic theme that they would not like to degenerate into a heated argument of the merits of A vs B. I'm thinking here of people who have asked for thoughts on a specific situation, such as what is the best next step in a courtship situation, without wanting the discussion to devolve into an argument over whether courtship is a valid approach to seeking a spouse.

 

The ignore list appears to be a helpful tool for cutting posters who are habitually less than civil when replying to threads, when you would like to read discussions of varying outlooks without getting bogged down in personal attacks.

 

I can see where both can be insular, when one seeks to only interact with the few posters who agree with one's own worldview in its entirety. I would suspect, though, that people who go to such lengths are really not interested in open dialogue, anyway. Know what I mean?

[Night Elf]

I think the ignore button can be very useful. I've used it in the past on only one poster. The ignore feature saved me from leaving the forums altogether, which I was seriously about to do.

 

Another thing to consider, is that not everyone thinks and acts as you do. This forum is a public place and people can participate as they feel comfortable. I believe it's wrong to expect everyone to feel and behave the same way. That isn't possible IRL anymore than it is online.

 

Not all of us have IRL people to talk with that are like-minded as you say. Being on the internet opens up the whole world so I can meet people, even if virtually. And just like IRL, I get to choose who I consider to be a friend or who I think has good advice or who I want to talk with actually.

 

There are forums and groups on the internet that are totally exclusive. This is not one of them. Everyone is welcome here. Just like IRL, we must learn to get along with others around us. Some people we like hanging out with and some people we avoid. Just MHO.

[Snickerdoodle]

Seems like for every discussion on the board there is another meta-discussion. I find it fascinating.

[unsinkable]

Seems like for every discussion on the board there is another meta-discussion. I find it fascinating.

 

There is a board rule at televisionwithoutpity.com that says no talking about the boards on the boards.

:D

[Karenciavo]

There is a board rule at televisionwithoutpity.com that says no talking about the boards on the boards.

:D

 

I thought that was a rule here too, but I don't see it listed.

[5kidsforME]

I guess I just can't believe that someone would have such a strong opinion on:

1)how people ask for advice

and

2)how people use the tools that are provided on the board

 

Obviously the ignore feature is provided for a reason.

 

IMO this one takes the cake.

[OnTheBrink]

I don't use the ignore feature to block people who think differently than I; I use it to block those who express their different viewpoints in vile and purposefully offensive ways.

 

And, if I want to be insular, so what? My choice! :lol:

[Denisemomof4]

you know, I understand what Nadia is saying, but I also have to admit something publicly here.

 

I do not tend to post much or ask questions since I was flamed and assumptions were made of me just by a few posts on asking whether or not to ask guests to remove shoes before entering my home. I was shocked at how rude people became and shocked that some publicly attacked me and made such awful WRONG assumptions about me. I rarely post now because I just don't have time or energy to deal with the drama. So I can also completely understand the ignore button.

[sleepy]

I don't use the ignore feature to block people who think differently than I; I use it to block those who express their different viewpoints in vile and purposefully offensive ways.

 

 

:iagree: I only have a couple of people on my ignore list. But these are people who have proven time and again that they are not worthy of my respect. So much so that I am not interested in anything they have to say. I don't care how they make their rice or which math curriculum they use. :tongue_smilie:

[WTMindy]

I personally do not get too emotionally invested in topics. If I disagree with something or something offends me, I just skim over it, perhaps with an eyeroll. Maybe I'll respond, maybe I won't. I have never used the ignore function. I LOVE the diversity of responses here. It is what I have always loved about these boards.

 

I used to wonder why people cared enough about opinions on a message board to let it bother them, but, I know many people who deeply personalize the discussions here and feel deeply and strongly and can not let things go. I would much rather them hit ignore sometimes rather than just leaving the boards. It is inbedded into their personalities, and really what I love most about them. This board wouldn't be very interesting if there were a bunch of "me's" here, who are content to just skim over things. It is the people who deeply invest themselves into the conversation that make for such GOOD stuff!! So, whatever makes it easier for them to contribute.

 

However, I agree with you that I don't love all the disclaimers. I think often it makes the problem worse.

[dangermom]

I don't use the ignore function myself, but IME it's used to ignore incivility, not different viewpoints.

[fivetails]

I could never use an "ignore" feature... I'm too dang nosy for that. :tongue_smilie:

 

C'mon, I *know* I'm not the only one. ;)

[Heather in Neverland]

I could never use an "ignore" feature... I'm too dang nosy for that. :tongue_smilie:

 

C'mon, I *know* I'm not the only one. ;)

 

:iagree:

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

I would only use the ignore feature for someone who was really awful to me personally and repeatedly and that hasn't happened yet.

 

I do appreciate disclaimers "sometimes"...if they are for a GENUINE reason (like Dawn's current disclaimer is a genuine and valid disclaimer...she does not want to discuss spanking vs. non-spanking, she wants real ideas to help her from those who have chosen not to spank, so I think her disclaimer is valid.... if she posted "I don't understand why some people spank" and then put a disclaimer that she doesn't want any replies from people who spank, her agenda would be obvious and uncalled for).

 

I love the diversity here, I learn a lot, I get riled up sometimes, I get supported sometimes, and overall I am a better person because of what I learn here.

[clementine]

I could never use an "ignore" feature... I'm too dang nosy for that. :tongue_smilie:

 

C'mon, I *know* I'm not the only one. ;)

 

 

:D

[Highereducation]

you know, I understand what Nadia is saying, but I also have to admit something publicly here.

 

I do not tend to post much or ask questions since I was flamed and assumptions were made of me just by a few posts on asking whether or not to ask guests to remove shoes before entering my home. I was shocked at how rude people became and shocked that some publicly attacked me and made such awful WRONG assumptions about me. I rarely post now because I just don't have time or energy to deal with the drama. So I can also completely understand the ignore button.

 

 

I understand how you feel. I post primarily on hockey boards, and there have been times that posters' insensitive and personal remarks toward me have brought me to tears. It has definitely caused me to think carefully before I post, because I hate getting slammed for things that people assume I meant when I didn't.

 

One of the rules that has become commonplace on hockey sites is: Attack the post, not the poster. For the most part, the hockey posters stick to it - but I find that when certain posters are brought out of their comfort zone or can't defend their position, they resort to personal attacks. And even though things are relatively anonymous, it still hurts to be flamed.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

There is a board rule at televisionwithoutpity.com that says no talking about the boards on the boards.

:D

 

What an absolutely wonderful idea.

 

SWB

[LaxMom]

I don't use the ignore feature to block people who think differently than I; I use it to block those who express their different viewpoints in vile and purposefully offensive ways.

 

And, if I want to be insular, so what? My choice! :lol:

My point, exactly. :D

 

:iagree: I only have a couple of people on my ignore list. But these are people who have proven time and again that they are not worthy of my respect. So much so that I am not interested in anything they have to say. I don't care how they make their rice or which math curriculum they use. :tongue_smilie:

Me, too. It's not people whose views I necessarily would disagree with (it is these people from whom I tend to learn the most); it's the people who only seem to feel the need to hop onto a civil discussion and post something snide or outright mean just to do it.

[Osmosis Mom]

I personally do not get too emotionally invested in topics. If I disagree with something or something offends me, I just skim over it, perhaps with an eyeroll. Maybe I'll respond, maybe I won't. I have never used the ignore function. I LOVE the diversity of responses here. It is what I have always loved about these boards.

 

I used to wonder why people cared enough about opinions on a message board to let it bother them, but, I know many people who deeply personalize the discussions here and feel deeply and strongly and can not let things go. I would much rather them hit ignore sometimes rather than just leaving the boards. It is inbedded into their personalities, and really what I love most about them. This board wouldn't be very interesting if there were a bunch of "me's" here, who are content to just skim over things. It is the people who deeply invest themselves into the conversation that make for such GOOD stuff!! So, whatever makes it easier for them to contribute.

 

However, I agree with you that I don't love all the disclaimers. I think often it makes the problem worse.

 

 

I appreciate your well-explained viewpoint.

 

For the record then I was not trying to change board-rules nor do I beleive I was violating any board-rules by my musings which were mostly sentimental.

 

Geez, talk about judgmentality here, lol!

[Osmosis Mom]

What an absolutely wonderful idea.

 

SWB

 

Yeah!!! BUt then, what would us bored women spend our time doing??!:tongue_smilie:

[BikeBookBread]

 

I do appreciate disclaimers "sometimes"...if they are for a GENUINE reason (like Dawn's current disclaimer is a genuine and valid disclaimer...she does not want to discuss spanking vs. non-spanking, she wants real ideas to help her from those who have chosen not to spank, so I think her disclaimer is valid.... if she posted "I don't understand why some people spank" and then put a disclaimer that she doesn't want any replies from people who spank, her agenda would be obvious and uncalled for).

 

:iagree:definitely.

 

I think there is a very legitimate use for disclaimers, but not for everything. For example, I posted over on the curriculum board requesting recommendation for a science curriculum from a very specific point of view. It could have caused a lot of controversy and drama in some circles -- Judaism and the Church have been debating this very issue for millennia -- I know nothing would be solved in a few posts! :lol: But I had a very legitimate question and got the help I needed, without some big old honkin' hijacking drama*.

 

I think there are those who post for entertainment purposes (I've done it!) and there are those who have limited time and IRW resources (like me) who really, genuinely need an answer and this is the best and most trusted place to find what we need.

 

*Sometimes BOHHDs are FUN! But just respect those who aren't looking for for BOHHD. Perhaps the person who has posted the disclaimer has a real reason for it, and are seeking a important answer to a real, question.

 

PS I've been lurking on Dawn's current non-spanking thread and have learned A LOT. It is a perfect example of my long-held assumptions being challenged from an opposing point of view without my causing any drama... RESPECT is the key.

[*********]

I actaully had someone suggest that I put them on my ignore list. This was after she and I had some 'debate' in a thread, and I sent her a pm explaining that I felt the way she was 'speaking' to me was hurtful/rude/unnecessary. I wasn't whining that she didn't agree with me, just addressing the rude way she was communicating. And I did it humbly and politely (at least, I believe I did. :))

 

Her answer was to tell me to put her on my ignore list if I didn't like it.

 

And there you have the reason why I rarely post on the general board now.

[HRAAB]

I have never felt any need to ignore anybody. I can't imagine unless they had called me names or some such thing, and I would think the post would be deleted. IRL I can't ignore somebody that doesn't like me; if I run into them at the store, I can't just suddenly make them invisible. I view message boards the same way, more or less. Also, if I understand how the ignore feature works, it would interrupt the reading of a thread because there would be messages missing. That would be frustrating.

 

Plus, I'm very curious.

 

Janet

[Heather in Neverland]

I actaully had someone suggest that I put them on my ignore list. This was after she and I had some 'debate' in a thread, and I sent her a pm explaining that I felt the way she was 'speaking' to me was hurtful/rude/unnecessary. I wasn't whining that she didn't agree with me, just addressing the rude way she was communicating. And I did it humbly and politely (at least, I believe I did. :))

 

Her answer was to tell me to put her on my ignore list if I didn't like it.

 

And there you have the reason why I rarely post on the general board now.

 

Oh don't let one person (or even ten people) ruin it for you! I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past and think you should stay involved.

[mommaduck]

sadness of people seeming to need to avoid contact with others who are different from themselves, rather than respectfully listening to them and learning from them.

 

I agree, Nadia, it is sad.

One reason that I don't use my ignore button...even if I don't like what is said. That's okay, it's my problem if I don't like it or agree.

[KJB]

 

Plus, I'm very curious.

 

Janet

:lol:

[Highereducation]

Oh don't let one person (or even ten people) ruin it for you! I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past and think you should stay involved.

 

I agree. There was one site I used to go to where there was a core of posters who had been there from the beginning. Although the site was open to everyone, the core formed a clique and even admitted to discussing other posters amongst each other through pm's (and this wasn't even women - it was men!). Little by little, the core posters ruined it for everyone else, which was a shame, because it was an interesting, witty bunch of people. Ultimately the site closed down because the core ended up turning on each other after no one else was left.

 

Things are much more interesting when everyone has a chance to add their perspective!

[TeacherZee]

I tried the ignore button during the worst of the "politics wars" but I too, alas, am too nosey and I just could not 1) stop reading the politics and 2) miss half the posts:D:tongue_smilie::D

[Osmosis Mom]

I actaully had someone suggest that I put them on my ignore list. This was after she and I had some 'debate' in a thread, and I sent her a pm explaining that I felt the way she was 'speaking' to me was hurtful/rude/unnecessary. I wasn't whining that she didn't agree with me, just addressing the rude way she was communicating. And I did it humbly and politely (at least, I believe I did. :))

 

Her answer was to tell me to put her on my ignore list if I didn't like it.

 

And there you have the reason why I rarely post on the general board now.

 

 

Well, this board is much broader and more welcoming than that.... Please make it "your own" by owning it respectfully.

[Tammy]

and the day I do....well I would have to think I was spending WAY too much time here, LOL!

 

When things start to bother you about this board....go take your kids to the park.....go out to dinner with your dh......because certainly....there are more important things to consider, LOL!

 

I didn't mean that in a 'snarky' way...but really.....You can't get too bothered by people you really don't know....at all.

 

.

[Crissy]

When conversation gets too heated for me, I just stop clicking my bookmark to make my way over here.

 

Essentially, I ignore ALL of you. :D

[nmoira]

 

I don't use the ignore feature to block people who think differently than I; I use it to block those who express their different viewpoints in vile and purposefully offensive ways.

Yup. I also block some people who IMHO aren't interested in adding to a discussion, but rather (again IMHO) are merely looking for a soapbox from which to deliver a monologue about their pet cause. As a rule, I haven't found their exclusion to hinder my ability to follow a thread.

[nmoira]

 

Essentially, I ignore ALL of you. :D

:tongue_smilie:

[Hillary in KS]

OK, so somebody mentioned on the other thread (that got closed by our Super-Nanny) that using the Ignore button just makes life easier for her in order to not be bothered by people she couldn't care less about (paraphrasing).

 

 

Nadia, I believe that was me you're paraphrasing. In paraphrasing, you've completely misrepresented what I said. I'm a little surprised, because that is very unlike you.

 

I am not creating a vacuum of like-minded people.

 

My whole post was explaining how I like and appreciate different points of view. I like debate and discussion. If you wish, I can post the entirety of my post. Because I do not wish to violate board rules by resurrecting a closed thread, here is the part pertaining to the ignore list:

 

"We are all intelligent people here. If you have a differing viewpoint on religion, politics, sociology, or math curriculum, I assume you have a reason behind your choice. It may not be what *I* have chosen for myself. I may disagree and think you're wrong. But I will not label or make you feel stupid, ill-informed, or brainwashed because you've chosen it.

The best thing that has come from the threads that have been shut down is the growth of my ignore list. If you repeatedly put others down, support your arguments with comments such as "clearly you don't know what you're talking about, or else you'd have agreed with me," or insert smug judgements into a decent conversation for the sole purpose of stirring the pot, then CONGRATULATIONS! You've likely made it onto my ignore list.

 

The ignore list is the best way I've found to keep my blood pressure down and not completely lose respect for some of the posters on this board.

 

This is very different from "I just ignore people I couldn't care less about." :glare:

Edited April 29, 2009 by Hillary in KS

[Julie in CA]

I have two people on my ignore list.

I'm a nice person...really, I am! ;)...and I'd like to think I'm reasonably open-minded. With that said, though, there are two (and only two) people on this board who's posts incite such frustration in me that I find it better not to even open them. Not because they have a different viewpoint than mine, but because they *themselves* are so closed-minded that there seems to be no hope of ever showing them another perspective (even when they ask for it). If every single response to your post is telling you politely to re-think something, at least pretend you're gonna do so, ok? Sheesh.

I figure that it's better to ignore someone than to give them the virtual equivalent of a "smack up the side of the head". :001_huh: :001_rolleyes:

[LaxMom]

When conversation gets too heated for me, I just stop clicking my bookmark to make my way over here.

 

Essentially, I ignore ALL of you. :D

 

 

{fingers in ears} I can't hear you, lalalalalalalalalalalalala...:willy_nilly:

[Tree House Academy]

I think I would only use the ignore feature if it was someone that I had a *personal* issue with...i.e. they took something I said, twisted it around and then we hashed it out in pms or something and decided to just not like each other much. I also have used it once for someone who was just blatently bashing Christianity and making rude comments with no merit (I think he is no longer here though). Otherwise, I try not to get caught in the drama too much and I do realize that we can't *hear* each other, so things will be taken the wrong way and/or mistaken and I try not to judge on such things (unless they are blatent and awful...which, sadly, has happened here a few times).

[Osmosis Mom]

Nadia, I believe that was me you're paraphrasing. In paraphrasing, you've completely misrepresented what I said. I'm a little surprised, because that is very unlike you.

 

 

This is very different from "I just ignore people I couldn't care less about." :glare:

 

No, I never targeted any one in particular!!! Honestly, Hillary. Please. This is not at all personal or targeting anybody indirectly, so to speak. I am a very direct person. This post was not meant to hurt any poster in any way.

[Hillary in KS]

No, I never targeted any one in particular!!! Honestly, Hillary. Please. This is not at all personal or targeting anybody indirectly, so to speak. I am a very direct person. This post was not meant to hurt any poster in any way.

 

No, no. No worries. I'm not hurt. :) I know you didn't mean it that way.

 

But I was the poster who brought up the ignore feature in that thread. I don't recall anyone posting anything similar to your paraphrase in that thread...except me.

 

I do not want people thinking that I ignore people or "can't be bothered by" different viewpoints. I ignore people who knowingly hurt or belittle others in their posts.

 

I do not wish others to think that THAT is why I advocated the ignore list. Does that make sense?

[JennifersLost]

I've certainly changed the way I "use" these boards over the years. In times past, it was for companionship during my homeschooling journey. Now, it's mostly for getting answers to direct questions that I have. I love that I can pop in, ask a question and get a whole range of answers from lots of different types of people. Then I can go and process that info.

 

I have realized several things over the years.

 

1. There are topics that some people can't talk about rationally. If you enter those conversations, you have to be prepared for strong words/feelings.

 

2. People on the boards are like people in real life. Some of them are a little...uh...challenged when it comes to conversation. Some are aspies, some are argumentative, some are challenged by any contradiction to their point of view, and some, like the pain-in-the-bum person at a cocktail party, will herd you into a corner and lecture you until the cows come home. They don't know any better!

 

Think of it as practice for real life. Get good at ignoring those who have gone beyond the pale of polite discourse and they usually go away. Just like sometimes you have to hang up on a ranting and raving ex, you have to "hang up" on a poster here. It's the only thing they understand.

 

I think one thing that people are noticing is that a core group of secular homeschoolers that used to post here frequently have moved on. There has been a bit of a shift to the right politically and toward religious rather than secular opinions.

 

If people want it to shift back toward the middle, they are going to have to be willing to deal with more controversy.

[elizabeth]

I don't use the ignore feature to block people who think differently than I; I use it to block those who express their different viewpoints in vile and purposefully offensive ways.

 

And, if I want to be insular, so what? My choice! :lol:

I absolutely understand your point and agree wholeheartedly. I disagree with many positions, values, and belief systems held by any variety of individuals in the world. I have no desire to shut out opposing viewpoints. However, I absolutely do not wish to waste my time on those I find offensive and more importantly, needlessly cruel or woefully ignorant. Many of the individuals here that I differ from the most in terms of background, religious practice, politics etc are some of my very favorite cyber friends as they are always gracious, kind and respectful of our differences and rush to embrace and emphasize those areas where we have a shared concern . On the other hand there are some who never post regarding home education or extend a helping hand to answer a query ,they only pop up regarding social issues and politics. That is when I use the ignore feature. It is not difficult to read between the lines. Demagoguery is boorish and inappropriate on a board that is in existence to support a type of education that requires critical thinking and a wide knowledge base encompassing varied intellectual disciplines including logic .

[JenniferB]

I know that people often say in posts that no one ever changes their mind based on what they read in thread, but for me that simply isn't true. I have slowly changed my mind on a number of issues from reading here. I think it has changed me in some ways.

 

:iagree: same here. I read alot of posts, respond to a few. I have thought deeply about and changed my mind about various social and educational subjects.

[Mommy22alyns]

I don't use the ignore feature here or elsewhere. People who bother me that much usually end up getting banned anyway. The rest of the time, I make myself go take a breather or not respond.

 

Online life is crazy in its own way. It can be hard to make yourself completely clear, there's all sorts of viewpoints, etc. etc. etc.

 

And yeah, I'm too nosy to ignore. I just have to peek.

[Stacy in NJ]

sadness of people seeming to need to avoid contact with others who are different from themselves, rather than respectfully listening to them and learning from them.

 

I agree, Nadia, it is sad.

 

That assumes they're only putting those folks they disagree with on ignore. It is possible to agree with a person's world view and still find them personnally annoying, to find their way of expressing themselves irritating.

 

Maybe it's less of a world view issue and more of a personality issue. And, perhaps, those using the ignore feature are less limiting than you're both assuming.