Parental hypervigilance as a cause of the mental health epidemic among American kids and teens

[busymama7]

6 hours ago, DawnM said:

This might be a little off topic, but I just read something yesterday about how the generation from ages 0-13 are called Gen Alfa and they won't listen to anyone.   The kids are not listening to any adult and when told to sit down in class (for example) the kids are looking at the teacher and saying, "My mom says I don't have to listen to you" and they are walking away and not doing what they are told, even when it involves safety.

This is really scary to me.   For everyone.  

I have kids ages 9-26. I am currently associating more with moms who have kids in the 3-13 range for my younger set to have friends. Something*definitely* changed around 13 years ago in parenting.  I have never seen anything like what I'm seeing now. Absolutely no discipline.  Children who throw knock down sobbing hysterical FITS and then are given what they wanted.   I spent a few days at a cabin with two moms who's oldest kids are 13ish and I said never again.   I'm not expecting kids to be perfect. I'm one of the most relaxed parents around.  I expect kids to act like kids and yeah maybe throw a fit here and there but I absolutely held my ground when I told them no or whatever.  These younger moms are much more concerned with feelings but not in a healthy way.  And it isn't enjoyable to be around their kids.  They do not think they have to listen to any instructions just as you say. 

[Faith-manor]

50 minutes ago, SKL said:

It's funny because there was plenty of community in past generations, here in the USA.

My current neighborhood, compared to the one where I lived as a kid, has a lot fewer kids (especially outside) and a lot more space between houses.  I have literally never seen a child (other than mine) playing outside here without a parent present; and even with a parent present (usually a tot), it's rare.

I think that there's a lot less interest in acting like a "community" when it's just a bunch of adults with little in common.  I've lived here nearly 30 years but don't know most of my neighbors at all.  I've never been inside any of their houses.  We've helped each other out with small things (like when the guy next door locked himself out of his house), we say "hi, nice dog," but that's pretty much it.  And I think we're all nice people.  We just have totally separate lives.

I do think that if any of my neighbors saw anything amiss with my kids, they would do something about it; as would I if I saw anything amiss.  It just hardly ever happens.

I agree. I think people work a lot of hours, and with cell phones and home computers, a huge number of employers who infringe on the home. I feel like it makes us all very disconnected. But I also hear a lot of the "I don't need nobody" kind of rhetoric here, and a lot of not wanting to pay for community spaces. In my area, it is like pulling teeth on an elephant to try to convince people that parks, and community centers, and sidewalks, and such are worthy of funding. My township which includes two small towns has no sidewalks, no parks, no walking trails, no anything. Even when kids are outside, there is nowhere to do anything except their own yards, and they cannot bike safely when semi trucks roll through town at 55 mph or worse and the shoulder on the road is only 18" wide. It is so bad. And I know we aren't the only community facing this. We used to have sidewalks, but the township voters decided to have them ripped out because they didn't want to pay for maintenance. I have suggested that the township hall, which has a lovely, huge yard be endowed with a couple of picnic tables, trash receptacles, and a play area. It is a perfect spot to pull off and let kids play. That was a hard no. I also suggested a community garden and some orchard trees, even offered to purchase and donate 3 apple trees, 2 peach trees, and 2 cherry trees. That was also a no. A local farmer offered to plow the plot, haul in some of his very good composted manure, and top soil so it would be a very productive garden. Also NO. Every attempt that the few of us who are concerned about lack of community to try to get an idea past the township has been pooped on.

I will say this. I don't think many of the locals are home much. Most driveway are empty Mon-Sat, and then Sunday is mow the lawn day. If people are never home, they are not going to invest in the idea of community.

[Faith-manor]

7 hours ago, regentrude said:

I don't think that is true. Other countries routinely cover material in highschool that is labeled "college" level in the US.

For example, the algebra based "college physics" course I teach compares roughly to what we did in 10th grade, and most "college composition" courses cover basic language mechanics that should have been dealt with by 9th grade.

College has become a place for remediating a highschool education that demands far less from its students than what kids in other developed countries are capable of learning. 

What is developmentally inappropriate is the early push for academics in elementary school. It's also useless,  especially when coupled with the warehousing without appropriate challenge that follows it in the middle grades.

This.

When my parents were in high school, their regular high school classes covered a ton of what is covered in AP coursework now. My college gen eds were more in depth than they are now. Too much dumbing down. And middle school is literally a holding pen of boredom. I don't know why we have to put pressure on 5 year olds to read, and all manner of stupid, and then let the middle schoolers just spin their wheels despite being capable of so much more. Our system is just plagued with idiocy!

I do think that the homework and exams, writing assignments, etc. that my parents, and my brother and I received in our K-12 education made a hell of a lot more sense, and contributed to more long term retention and skill than the mess that is handed out now. I cannot believe some of the stupid, educational theory out there, and the idiocy of a lot of assignments. I don't blame teachers. They have to do what the administration says, the state board of education, the curriculum choice, etc. They aren't allowed to follow any intuition about what would best benefit their students. So I can see where there is a LOT of stress associated with AP's and coursework that may not even need to exist if stupidity was not in the driving seat of educational policy.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

The freakout over how we compare to other countries is one of the reasons why high school is not developmentally appropriate for the average child.

There's a whole thread about APs on the high school board.  My beef is that AP has taken the place of "college prep" for grades 11-12.  Let's take English for example.  There are 3 options in our public school:  (a) general English, which is designed for kids who aren't college bound; (b) AP English, which purports to teach at the college level; and (c) actual college English (DE).  There's nothing for college bound kids who just want to prepare for college level work.  So they take AP, even though it isn't a fit.  My other beef is that schools push AP without much consideration for what the individual child actually needs.  Just because you're "interested in" a career related to life science doesn't mean that college-level biotech should be your 11th grade science course.  (Personal rant over.)

I don't know how it is in other countries, but here, you need a bachelor's degree (maybe even a master's) to do a lot of things that aren't super intellectual.  So yes, that puts pressure on kids who aren't born geniuses.

I don’t think it’s the freak out about how we compare to other countries that make our schools, not just high schools, developmentally inappropriate for many students. Because unlike the US, many other countries do follow research proven best practices when it comes to education and they also have much more educational uniformity across the country. In the US, that’s more likely to be the exception, not the norm. Many of these other countries are tracking students and offering viable alternative paths for those not college bound. Many are not pushing developmentally inappropriate academics in the early grades and have actual math teachers teach math from the early grades, not to mention starting foreign language instruction much earlier. There are lots of lessons we could learn from other counties when it comes to education.

[LaughingCat]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

This.

When my parents were in high school, their regular high school classes covered a ton of what is covered in AP coursework now. My college gen eds were more in depth than they are now. Too much dumbing down. And middle school is literally a holding pen of boredom. I don't know why we have to put pressure on 5 year olds to read, and all manner of stupid, and then let the middle schoolers just spin their wheels despite being capable of so much more. Our system is just plagued with idiocy!

I do think that the homework and exams, writing assignments, etc. that my parents, and my brother and I received in our K-12 education made a hell of a lot more sense, and contributed to more long term retention and skill than the mess that is handed out now. I cannot believe some of the stupid, educational theory out there, and the idiocy of a lot of assignments. I don't blame teachers. They have to do what the administration says, the state board of education, the curriculum choice, etc. They aren't allowed to follow any intuition about what would best benefit their students. So I can see where there is a LOT of stress associated with AP's and coursework that may not even need to exist if stupidity was not in the driving seat of educational policy.

I completely disagree with the idea that school was harder "in the past" and easier "now".

I graduated in 1980, so 40+ years ago -- my high school had NO honors or AP courses. There was no advanced math.  And even so long ago, all required for graduation courses were dumbed down so that everyone could graduate.   They were so easy that one of my classmates took the full senior year english and civics (the only 2 senior level required classes) in SUMMER school-- a full year of 2 classes in less than 3 months --so she could graduate early and head off to college. 

And even looking at non-required for graduation classes -- what few classes there we had were pretty much equal to my kids HS's regular classes -- and not as hard as honors classes much less AP.  

I do agree there is more push to standardize teaching now and less focus on "the basics"-- in my HS education I had a couple teachers who were really focused on "basics" and pounding them into us & that was helpful to me  -- and I think that doesn't happen as much now with the standardization -- there is a lot of expectation that "you should have already learned that" and less going over "the basics" again and again.  But I also think that is luck of the draw as well.  There was no guarantee at my school that you would get one of those particular teachers, for example.

[Frances]

47 minutes ago, LaughingCat said:

I completely disagree with the idea that school was harder "in the past" and easier "now".

I graduated in 1980, so 40+ years ago -- my high school had NO honors or AP courses. There was no advanced math.  And even so long ago, all required for graduation courses were dumbed down so that everyone could graduate.   They were so easy that one of my classmates took the full senior year english and civics (the only 2 senior level required classes) in SUMMER school-- a full year of 2 classes in less than 3 months --so she could graduate early and head off to college. 

And even looking at non-required for graduation classes -- what few classes there we had were pretty much equal to my kids HS's regular classes -- and not as hard as honors classes much less AP.  

I do agree there is more push to standardize teaching now and less focus on "the basics"-- in my HS education I had a couple teachers who were really focused on "basics" and pounding them into us & that was helpful to me  -- and I think that doesn't happen as much now with the standardization -- there is a lot of expectation that "you should have already learned that" and less going over "the basics" again and again.  But I also think that is luck of the draw as well.  There was no guarantee at my school that you would get one of those particular teachers, for example.

I think there is so much variation in the public school education system in the US, not just among states, but even within states and at times even within districts, that it’s almost possible to make comparisons across schools and time unless using national data and research.

Just anecdotally, my small rural high school had no AP, IB, honors, or DE classes, only taught math through pre-Calc, and very few parents had a college degree. Yet a significant portion of my graduating class received a college degree and everyone who attended finished their four year degree. And several of us went on to receive degrees from top grad and professional schools.

[Dmmetler]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

I think there is so much variation in the public school education system in the US, not just among states, but even within states and at times even within districts, that it’s almost possible to make comparisons across schools and time unless using national data and research.

Just anecdotally, my small rural high school had no AP, IB, honors, or DE classes, only taught math through pre-Calc, and very few parents had a college degree. Yet a significant portion of my graduating class received a college degree and everyone who attended finished their four year degree. And several of us went on to receive degrees from top grad and professional schools.

One of my DH's mathematics grad school classmates had to scurry to self-teach Trigonometry when she was assigned to teach a college algebra class. Her high school had only gone through geometry/algebra 2, her college had begun with calculus 1. Small rural school district with a K-8 and a 9-12 school, and she was valedictorian of a class of 24-even in high school, everyone took the same classes. 

 

She now teaches at a community college that gets a lot of students from small rural districts-but the difference is that NOW there are state virtual options for high school and college classes, so kids have more options regardless of whether their high school has 24 kids per grade or 2400 with a bus to the state university for DE. 

[regentrude]

8 hours ago, busymama7 said:

 These younger moms are much more concerned with feelings but not in a healthy way.  

It mirrors a societal trend. I have often wondered whether all the navel gazing and focus on self-care isn't actually harmful because it's taken too far. There has to be a healthy balance. Being in touch with one's feelings, listening to the body, setting boundaries... that can morph easily into not doing anything you don't want to while patting yourself on the back for your enlightened self-awareness.

Edited December 29, 2023 by regentrude

[KSera]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

It mirrors a societal trend. I have often wondered whether all the navel gazing and focus on self-care isn't actually harmful because it's taken too far. There has to be a healthy balance. Being in touch with one's feelings, listening to the body, setting boundaries... that can morph easily into not doing anything you don't want to while patting yourself on the back for your enlightened self-awareness.

Agree. I also think some unpleasant feelings that may be normal make kids and/or their parents alarmed, as if it’s abnormal and to be avoided at all costs to ever feel anxious or sad. Which then makes feeling those feelings all the more distressing.  

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

Agree. I also think some unpleasant feelings that may be normal make kids and/or their parents alarmed, as if it’s abnormal and to be avoided at all costs to ever feel anxious or sad. Which then makes feeling those feelings all the more distressing.  

Yes. Feeling sad is normal. Feeling upset is normal. Navigating interpersonal conflict is normal. Not every person with whom one has a complicated relationship is "toxic". People need to learn to get along with people with whom they don't mesh perfectly instead of cutting them off. All the armchair psychology isn't doing the young adults any favors. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by regentrude

[Heartstrings]

I think the way we tend to talk about college adds stress to teens.  Whenever we are talking about college we tend to speak as if top colleges are the only colleges.  We say college requires APs and sports and activities when we mean top, highly selective colleges want those things.  There are tons and tons of colleges that don’t care much about those things, if at all as far as admissions.  I think most of us know that but the teens that are hearing that information don’t.   Most kids aren’t going to tippy top schools, which means most kids are taking 6 APs a year and running themselves crazy with extra curriculars and sports for no real reason.   They’d be fine with 1 or 2 APs, or even none.  

Edited December 29, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

One of my DH's mathematics grad school classmates had to scurry to self-teach Trigonometry when she was assigned to teach a college algebra class. Her high school had only gone through geometry/algebra 2, her college had begun with calculus 1. Small rural school district with a K-8 and a 9-12 school, and she was valedictorian of a class of 24-even in high school, everyone took the same classes. 

 

She now teaches at a community college that gets a lot of students from small rural districts-but the difference is that NOW there are state virtual options for high school and college classes, so kids have more options regardless of whether their high school has 24 kids per grade or 2400 with a bus to the state university for DE. 

It’s great that some places are making more options available for rural students. Although I didn’t appreciate that the time, looking back I realize I actually got a very good education, despite attending such a small, rural school with limited course options, especially when I compare it to what I see happening rurally near me. All of my classmates knew college was going to be different and hard and since it wasn’t a thing to apply to elite schools where I lived, we all ended up at places that challenged us without overwhelming us and for those of us that chose very good, but not elite, LACs, launched us into top grad schools for advanced STEM degrees. Besides those with PhDs, I have high school classmates who are nurses, teachers, lawyers, engineers, doctors, physical therapists, optometrists, judges, managers, business owners, etc. Not having any advanced or even honors classes in high school certainly didn’t hurt our career prospects.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Frances

[BusyMom5]

10 hours ago, busymama7 said:

I have kids ages 9-26. I am currently associating more with moms who have kids in the 3-13 range for my younger set to have friends. Something*definitely* changed around 13 years ago in parenting.  I have never seen anything like what I'm seeing now. Absolutely no discipline.  Children who throw knock down sobbing hysterical FITS and then are given what they wanted.   I spent a few days at a cabin with two moms who's oldest kids are 13ish and I said never again.   I'm not expecting kids to be perfect. I'm one of the most relaxed parents around.  I expect kids to act like kids and yeah maybe throw a fit here and there but I absolutely held my ground when I told them no or whatever.  These younger moms are much more concerned with feelings but not in a healthy way.  And it isn't enjoyable to be around their kids.  They do not think they have to listen to any instructions just as you say. 

I also have kids from 6 to 20, and somewhere along the way parents just flipped.  I have friends with older kids (high school and college) and then friends with just younger kids.  The difference is stark.  I have two friends with kids in both ranges, and we just look in disbelief.   I don't know what happened,  but it's damaging those kids developmentally.   They are feral- they cannot play nicely, share, or even just have something not go their way (dont like food, loose a game, etc).  Parents don't discipline them- they just try to fix the situation to fit Juniors wishes.  Me- play nice or we leave.  Sometimes things don't go our way, play or we can go.  Younger moms think I'm really strict, moms with older kids think I'm too lenient 🤷‍♀️.  

I do think the way we deal with feelings has gone way too far.  Mental health is important,  but learning how to navigate the Normal bumps of life is vitally important to future happiness.  Disappointment,  fear, anxiety, anger- these are all normal feelings that yoddlers and preschoolers should learn to manage.

[Heartstrings]

I have older and younger kids (8-22) and I’m not really seeing these feral kids who can’t listen or play nicely.  Granted I stay in my homeschool bubble a lot, but the public schooled neighborhood kids are mostly fine.  The homeschooled kids behave better on average, but that was the case with my oldest too.  

[Scarlett]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:10 PM, Terabith said:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13PPgss8gr9mcaCEsCqDTLl-ChKIy_Oo4/view

I think there is a lot of merit in this article.  I grew up in the 80s, and my mother was to my perception and the perception of others, a helicopter mom, but the things that she was draconian on seem like common sense these days.  I could only ride in cars with a seat belt.  I'm not sure if I rode in a car seat; I think I did, but it was very unusual when I was born in 1976, and even when my sister was born in 1982, it was moderately unusual.  She made us wear bike helmets when riding bikes after an uncle had a severe head injury while biking.  We weren't allowed to ride in the back of moving pickup trucks.  

There were no other kids in my neighborhood, and I was a bookish kid, so I never experienced the playing outside with a gang of kids for hours and roaming the neighborhood, but my husband did, even though he grew up in what was legitimately a ghetto.  He walked past bars that were still open to get to school, and even the private elementary school he attended didn't have a playground; they used an empty parking lot that had lots of broken glass for recess.  But I still had WAY more independence than any child of the last 20 years.  I started babysitting at age 12, and I had real responsibility for little kids and even infants for 8-10 hours a day in the summer.  I remember reading parenting books at the library, and one of the series I read had a book called Your Five Year Old, that must have been written in the late 60s or early 70s, and it talked about kindergarten readiness, and one of the things on the checklist was "can independently navigate 7-8 blocks to a friend or relative's house."  I was never allowed to do that, because there had been some highly publicized case of a child abduction in somewhere like California.  

I tried very hard to raise my kids in a free range manner, but man, society makes that almost impossible.  My in-law's neighborhood, where my kids spent a lot of time, had other kids and a culture of letting kids run around the block, and my kids did do that.  But in our own neighborhood, where there were fewer kids and they were not kids my kids were friendly with, my kids did not free range.  There is a park within easy walking distance, though the traffic situation isn't great and there's a steep hill.  I tried to send my kids together to the park, but 1) modern parks are constructed in a way to be boring to any kid over about five or six, so there wasn't a lot of inherent interest in the park, 2) there were no other kids there, and 3) my kids were very much aware that even if WE thought it was safe for them to roam, other people did not agree.  And both they and I were very aware of the worries about other people calling CPS.  They got hairy eyeballs and worried comments when I would send them into the store to buy a half gallon of milk at eight or so, even if I just in the parking lot or even another part of the grocery store.  

And it is so much easier to go with the concerns of the most paranoid parents around when parenting in public, both because being perceived as a neglectful parent is shameful and has real social ramifications, but also because it's not polite to let your own kids do something the majority of kids are being forbidden to do, even if it's as innocuous as climbing up the slide or on top of a three foot tall tunnel.  There are gasps of alarm if you allow your child who has demonstrated trustworthiness to run ahead, trusting them to stop when they get to a parking lot.  Kids pick up on that and get scared.  

I didn't know many other parents who allowed their kids to use paring knives to cut vegetables and help cook, including using the stove and oven, from preschool years.  I continually try to educate parents in my capacity as a preschool teacher that their three year olds can indeed take on household tasks like setting the table, washing dishes, helping to fold laundry, and helping to cook in the kitchen or do yardwork.  

Nobody hires 12 year old babysitters these days.  So my kids are entering adulthood with far less experience navigating the world independently, despite my best and consistent attempts to foster this and my recognition from the time they were preschoolers that there is a correlation between overprotectiveness and mental health.  And I knew my kids were at real risk of mental health concerns because of genetics, and indeed, I think my youngest at least was born with anxiety.  She was on a life saving SSRI by the time she was five and in retrospect I wish we'd started at three or at least four, which was when they were first offered by a doctor.  But I'm not quite so sure that my oldest's anxiety issues are inborn in the same way.  

I'm not sure there's much to do about it.  I think the ship has sailed, and our society has decided that no risk is acceptable and so we trade the risks of broken bones (and of course, much lesser risks of more serious injuries) for long term risks like obesity and mental health.  

But I really believe, deep in my bones, that all human beings deserve independence and respect and to navigate the world on their own and have real responsibilities, from ages much younger than most people believe is possible.  

 

Wow this goes hand in hand with what I am currently seeing with an 18 year old I know. 

[busymama7]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

I also have kids from 6 to 20, and somewhere along the way parents just flipped.  I have friends with older kids (high school and college) and then friends with just younger kids.  The difference is stark.  I have two friends with kids in both ranges, and we just look in disbelief.   I don't know what happened,  but it's damaging those kids developmentally.   They are feral- they cannot play nicely, share, or even just have something not go their way (dont like food, loose a game, etc).  Parents don't discipline them- they just try to fix the situation to fit Juniors wishes.  Me- play nice or we leave.  Sometimes things don't go our way, play or we can go.  Younger moms think I'm really strict, moms with older kids think I'm too lenient 🤷‍♀️.  

I do think the way we deal with feelings has gone way too far.  Mental health is important,  but learning how to navigate the Normal bumps of life is vitally important to future happiness.  Disappointment,  fear, anxiety, anger- these are all normal feelings that yoddlers and preschoolers should learn to manage.

Yeah you described this really well.  

[busymama7]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I have older and younger kids (8-22) and I’m not really seeing these feral kids who can’t listen or play nicely.  Granted I stay in my homeschool bubble a lot, but the public schooled neighborhood kids are mostly fine.  The homeschooled kids behave better on average, but that was the case with my oldest too.  

So it's not something I really notice in day to day activities.  Short interactions etc.  But living with the families for 5 days? Yeah it was really clear. I had seen glimpses of the behavior and such but it wasn't as stark as when we were together 24/7.   But I'm glad to know it's not completely universal. Although I do know that. It's not every family or every kid. Just a trend I'm seeing that is very difficult to be around. 

[freesia]

6 hours ago, busymama7 said:

So it's not something I really notice in day to day activities.  Short interactions etc.  But living with the families for 5 days? Yeah it was really clear. I had seen glimpses of the behavior and such but it wasn't as stark as when we were together 24/7.   But I'm glad to know it's not completely universal. Although I do know that. It's not every family or every kid. Just a trend I'm seeing that is very difficult to be around. 

I have a spread of kids, as well and have also seen what the two Busy mamas see. I was also a nanny and a teacher (of six year olds for ten years.) A few years ago I was shocked when kids at VBS or Sunday school would just look through me as though I had said nothing or would walk away from me—completely ignoring me. There was 0 sense that the adult in charge had any authority in their life. It wasn’t every child—but enough (mostly upper middle class children.) I have also taught autistic children and in integrated classrooms so I’m not talking about children who are neurodiverse. 
 

Interestingly, we just moved to a new state to a LCOL, much more economically depressed area. I agreed to teach Sunday school. Those children are delightful and much more like the ones I taught 20 years ago. They orient off the adult. Even the child who pushes the boundaries responds to my old tricks. No one looks through me or ignores me completely. 
 

my parenting did change over the years. In some ways I became more protective. For instance, in our old area, I did not let my younger dd go to her closest friend’s house for sleep overs bc her parents do not enforce boundaries and the boys do not have any sense of listening to adults or respecting boundaries. The Scout troop dd was involved with was also a mess. They spent a lot of time stopping meetings to talk through the feelings of a pair of twins who had had this type of parenting. Dd was sympathetic but ended up dropping Scouts. It’s exhausting and like watching a train wreck. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by freesia
ETA:I said boys bc I do not want my dd spending the night at a house where teen boys have no boundaries.

[freesia]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

I have a spread of kids, as well and have also seen what the two Busy mamas see. I was also a nanny and a teacher (of six year olds for ten years.) A few years ago I was shocked when kids at VBS or Sunday school would just look through me as though I had said nothing or would walk away from me—completely ignoring me. There was 0 sense that the adult in charge had any authority in their life. It wasn’t every child—but enough (mostly upper middle class children.) I have also taught autistic children and in integrated classrooms so I’m not talking about children who are neurodiverse. 
 

Interestingly, we just moved to a new state to a LCOL, much more economically depressed area. I agreed to teach Sunday school. Those children are delightful and much more like the ones I taught 20 years ago. They orient off the adult. Even the child who pushes the boundaries responds to my old tricks. No one looks through me or ignores me completely. 
 

my parenting did change over the years. In some ways I became more protective. For instance, in our old area, I did not let my younger dd go to her closest friend’s house for sleep overs bc her parents do not enforce boundaries and the boys do not have any sense of listening to adults or respecting boundaries. The Scout troop dd was involved with was also a mess. They spent a lot of time stopping meetings to talk through the feelings of a pair of twins who had had this type of parenting. Dd was sympathetic but ended up dropping Scouts. It’s exhausting and like watching a train wreck. 

Quoting myself to add—one comment dd has made about our new area is that the kids here have all gone through the same rough or traumatic events ( Covid, divorce, s*xual abuse) and that many of them are dealing with anxiety on some level but that it was much less a defining part of their life. I think she was saying that they had struggles and were getting help for it, but were also able to focus on other aspects of their life. In our old area, the anxiety and hardships were the focus of everything. 
 

Please don’t think I’m minimizing anxiety. We have strong generationally anxiety on both sides of our family. Many of us are medicated and/or in or have been in counseling—more of us than not in our extended family. I am all about mental health care. I am just echoing what others have said that I think lack of boundaries around behavior and emotions is not leading to anything healthy or good. 

[Carrie12345]

On the generational thing, I have 4 Zs and then (by most charts) a barely Alpha who just turned 13. There’s no denying he is the honey badger of my clan, but I also can’t separate the concept of parenting differences from being the baby child with 4 Z siblings, lol. I mean, they’ve been pretty outspoken around him his whole life, so he’s had a running start. His delivery can be… inappropriate. 

[Hyacinth]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:12 AM, Catwoman said:

Even when I was in college back in the dark ages (1980 😉) many of us had cleaning ladies and sent our laundry out to be done, so I don’t find it shocking that people are asking those same questions now — although I remember hiring my own cleaning person and asking other students which laundry and dry cleaning service was the best. My parents didn’t ask about it for me (although they paid for everything.)  

Oh sure! Issues around bus schedules, professors, and housekeeping are common for college students. My point was to provide an example of parents who asked questions and solved problems on behalf of their adult children instead of stepping back and letting the students figure it out. 

[FreyaO]

For those observing Gen Alpha: when do parents stop using strollers?

In contrast to issues that require executive function and have several layers of complexity, this is straightforward. Do parents trust a 4yo or 5yo or 6yo to walk for half hour?

Because I have seen many that do not.

 

 

[Clarita]

11 minutes ago, FreyaO said:

Do parents trust a 4yo or 5yo or 6yo to walk for half hour?

I'm guilty of bringing my stroller with my 4 adn 6 year old. Mostly to carry the stuff though. It was just so convenient to say "Just stick it in the stroller." All the jackets and snacks and water bottles at the zoo.

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, FreyaO said:

For those observing Gen Alpha: when do parents stop using strollers?

In contrast to issues that require executive function and have several layers of complexity, this is straightforward. Do parents trust a 4yo or 5yo or 6yo to walk for half hour?

Because I have seen many that do not.

 

 

This is an "it depends" situation.  My youngest is Gen Alpha and she loved to ride in her stroller for fun, so we kept up walks in the stroller until she was around 5 when the stroller broke. She could climb in and out at will at that point because it wasa  just for fun thing.  I also used it more to carry stuff in airports or the zoo or ball games or whatever until around age 5 or so.  They are so handy for things like coolers and lunches or ball game stuff.  I sometimes wish we all would adopt pushing strollers instead of always carrying things.  I could have bought the more socially acceptable wagon but I already had the stroller so why spend another $100 just for appearances?

She could definitely walk for those things and did, but I kept the stroller around for my convenience for longer than was strictly required.  The only people I know who regularly use strollers past toddlerhood are for kids with special needs.  T1 Diabetics who struggle with low blood sugar or autistic kids who elope. 

[Rosie_0801]

Most of the time it is less about who is in the stroller than who else is tagging along. If there's a couple of kids without much age gap, it's not only easier but probably safer. There are only so many hands you can hold and still carry your shopping.

My youngest stayed in the stroller much longer than my eldest partly because he was either too lazy to walk or following a schema (hard to tell) but also because he was a runner and I couldn't trust him until he was old enough to hold my hand willingly. That wasn't until he was nearly 5. (The autistic who elope category.)

My eldest stood up in her stroller as soon as she could and pram surfed unless she was actually asleep. She was so cute ❤️

[Clarita]

5 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

  I could have bought the more socially acceptable wagon but I already had the stroller so why spend another $100 just for appearances?

I have the wagon the stroller is a better push than the wagon. Even if all you are pushing/pulling is stuff. DH ended up being the main user of the wagon for his sport stuff. 

[matrips]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:58 AM, Farrar said:

Adding another thought to my post about the absurdity of what we expect of our high schoolers. In Florida, where dual enrollment is pretty common and growing, the department of education unhelpfully decided to determine exactly how many high school credits each dual enrollment course is worth. We expect college students to carry between 12-16 credits per semester. So, like 4-5 classes, maybe 6 if the student has these 1-2 credit type requirements. That keeps a college student on track to graduate in four years in pretty much any institution and is legally defined as full time for financial aid purposes.

In Florida, each course is defined as a half credit only. So for a high school student to take all their coursework through dual enrollment, they'd need to do 6-7 classes per semester. Not 4 like a lot of actual college students. A minimum of 6. I think obviously the department of education didn't fully think it out. But also, this is our crazy thinking about high schoolers. We pile on them like mad. It's not that those 100-level gen ed classes are that hard necessarily. But they take the finite resource of time.

I don’t see that at all. Most core courses are worth 1 credit- English, math, sciences with labs. Many art, music, pe courses are 0.5 credit. And then there’s a mix. 

[Soror]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:58 AM, Farrar said:

Adding another thought to my post about the absurdity of what we expect of our high schoolers. In Florida, where dual enrollment is pretty common and growing, the department of education unhelpfully decided to determine exactly how many high school credits each dual enrollment course is worth. We expect college students to carry between 12-16 credits per semester. So, like 4-5 classes, maybe 6 if the student has these 1-2 credit type requirements. That keeps a college student on track to graduate in four years in pretty much any institution and is legally defined as full time for financial aid purposes.

In Florida, each course is defined as a half credit only. So for a high school student to take all their coursework through dual enrollment, they'd need to do 6-7 classes per semester. Not 4 like a lot of actual college students. A minimum of 6. I think obviously the department of education didn't fully think it out. But also, this is our crazy thinking about high schoolers. We pile on them like mad. It's not that those 100-level gen ed classes are that hard necessarily. But they take the finite resource of time.

That is how it is here and part of the impetus for d1 to come home. We know one of the higher-ups at the local CC and I could tell by her comments she thinks we're slacking by not keeping those requirements with dd at home. Kids are essentially doubling up course loads. 

As far as the mental health epidemic, I don't think the lack of independence for kids does them any favors. I see that play out in different ways for different ages, socioeconomic groups, etc. For the young kids, we see that kids aren't allowed to play. We hear that things are so bad these days that kids can't be allowed outside and are supervised well past the point that is needed when statistics don't back this up. For the older ones, they don't have responsibility for their own lives in any meaningful way. There are a million stupid rules and restrictions and (often) parents are so freaked out with getting their kid ahead that they are stepping in to provide the support and help to make that happen- everyone does it so it is this contest between whose parents can do and provide the most. 

But I don't think that is the only factor by a long shot I think the role of social media and screen time is a net negative for kids (yes there can be benefits but those far outweigh the negatives with the amount of screen time kids are getting).I also think that outside time is prioritized enough. I see both of these play out with clients. It is easier to give the kids screen time than to supervise them outside. Kids need to be outside. We need to be outside. We need to be active.  

I often work with out-of-control kids. What I see is that parents give up spanking and rules but have no clue what to do instead so they pretty much do nothing. They use electronic babysitters and nag and nag but no rules or boundaries are enforced. We work with them on setting and enforcing appropriate rules and boundaries and also building those relationships. In the past, a lot of parental control was exerted via fear, parents don't have that these days. and they are just flailing around. They will say nothing works with this kid but they never actually enforce anything. I think often of Joann's line- get off your butt parenting- I tell my parents that, especially my ones with toddlers. 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Soror said:

en work with out-of-control kids. What I see is that parents give up spanking and rules but have no clue what to do instead so they pretty much do nothing. They use electronic babysitters and nag and nag but no rules or boundaries are enforced.

I had a family member with this mentality.  Her kids were completely out of control.  She didn’t want to spank and sort of ended up doing nothing.   Eventually she got frustrated and started pinching them, thinking it was somehow better to pinch than to spank?  I never fully understood that logic.  
 

I rarely spanked my younger two but focused on the relationship.  I have very few actual rules but I’m fairly strict about those few things.  Mostly it’s just doing life together and focusing on how we do things.  That and a focus on habit training when they are very young has turned out happy, well regulated kids that I like and that  others like.  

[Farrar]

28 minutes ago, Soror said:

 

I often work with out-of-control kids. What I see is that parents give up spanking and rules but have no clue what to do instead so they pretty much do nothing. They use electronic babysitters and nag and nag but no rules or boundaries are enforced. We work with them on setting and enforcing appropriate rules and boundaries and also building those relationships. In the past, a lot of parental control was exerted via fear, parents don't have that these days. and they are just flailing around. They will say nothing works with this kid but they never actually enforce anything. I think often of Joann's line- get off your butt parenting- I tell my parents that, especially my ones with toddlers. 

I see this so much. I see it from both the gentle discipline types and the parents who want to be more traditionally authoritarian. No one seems to know what to do or how to draw a boundary with their kids. 

I hate to blame parents. I do think most parents are doing their best, even those whose methods frustrate me. I've definitely made a multitude of parental mistakes over the years (who hasn't!?) and I'm not trying to say that things I did are the only thing that works. But also, I see a lot of things going wrong in the early years and then by the time there are consequences for the kid, parents are afraid to let those consequences come into play.

[Soror]

24 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I had a family member with this mentality.  Her kids were completely out of control.  She didn’t want to spank and sort of ended up doing nothing.   Eventually she got frustrated and started pinching them, thinking it was somehow better to pinch than to spank?  I never fully understood that logic.  
 

I rarely spanked my younger two but focused on the relationship.  I have very few actual rules but I’m fairly strict about those few things.  Mostly it’s just doing life together and focusing on how we do things.  That and a focus on habit training when they are very young has turned out happy, well regulated kids that I like and that  others like.  

Same here!

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I see this so much. I see it from both the gentle discipline types and the parents who want to be more traditionally authoritarian. No one seems to know what to do or how to draw a boundary with their kids. 

I hate to blame parents. I do think most parents are doing their best, even those whose methods frustrate me. I've definitely made a multitude of parental mistakes over the years (who hasn't!?) and I'm not trying to say that things I did are the only thing that works. But also, I see a lot of things going wrong in the early years and then by the time there are consequences for the kid, parents are afraid to let those consequences come into play.

Absolutely. I tell all the parents I work with- there is no magic answer- if you do this you will have "good" kids, I don't have all the answers, I screw up all the time, no one is perfect, we do the best we can, and also some kids are harder than others for various reasons. 

[maize]

2 minutes ago, Soror said:

 some kids are harder than others for various reasons. 

This is so true. What seems to be effective for one kid isn't at all guaranteed to work with even a sibling of that kid, let alone a completely unrelated kid.

My kids do reasonably well with my relationship-focused and extremely non-authoritarian parenting--but one reason it works and they aren't wildly out-of-control kids is that I gave birth to a passel of high-anxiety rule-follower types who are afraid of doing something wrong (this comes with its own host of challenges; anxiety is no picknick for child or parent). I doubt I would have a clue how to parent a kid who was set on pushing boundaries at every turn.

But I didn't make my kids who they are. They got half of my genes, and that's probably my most significant contribution. They are who they were born as, and the nurture part of the equation, while real, can only work with the raw material in front of it.

[Soror]

I had a parent go smacked that she could be strict with rules. Mind you I'd been with her 8 weeks at that point talking about rules and boundaries but I said something differently I guess and it clicked. She thought because physical punishment wasn't allowed (it is allowed in our state if there are no lasting marks but bit if dfs is involved for whatever reason) she couldn't be strict. I think she is representing many out there.

I also see people pick bits and pieces of a parenting philosophy without really understanding it or fully implementing it. I think this is due to the sound bite culture. 

[Farrar]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:47 PM, FreyaO said:

For those observing Gen Alpha: when do parents stop using strollers?

In contrast to issues that require executive function and have several layers of complexity, this is straightforward. Do parents trust a 4yo or 5yo or 6yo to walk for half hour?

Because I have seen many that do not.

This used to get to me so much. I'm a parent to Z'ers, but we were the first to ditch the stroller and make the kids walk. We made them walk miles. Other parents would be like, wait, you came all the way here with your kids and no stroller. How is that possible?!? And I'd be like, they're FIVE! They're not infants. I had multiple families tell me that we inspired them to believe they could stop using the stroller for their kids.

I think what it boils down to is that I was more willing to deal with them whining about walking than I was willing to deal with lugging and parking that bleeping double stroller. And that's the part that I see that so many parents (and I don't know that many parents to alphas, but they seem similar to the parents of zoomers who were my peers) more willing to deal with the kid whining. They'd rather deal with the logistical hassles than the whining kid. But, of course, if you don't, then eventually you've got a situation where a kid doesn't expect to walk who's way too old and you end up just not going as many places.

Which is not to say that I was perfect on everything. My kids are rotten at picking up after themselves (they're good at pitching in when everyone cleans and they do their own laundry, etc... but they're thoughtless about socks or glasses or so forth around the house) and that's totally on me not toeing the line about it when they were little... because the hassle of forcing them to stop and back up was greater than the hassle of dealing with it myself. So we all get the result we set up on some level.

[Terabith]

My kids were 17 months apart, and we ditched the stroller early both because I philosophically wanted my kids to get at least as much exercise as I did on outings, and because dealing with the stroller was a hassle.  And realistically, we ditched the stroller early because my kids were easy to deal with in public.  They were anxious, so there was absolutely no way they were running off.  They followed the rules.  So in practice, I think we dumped the stroller around age 2 for my youngest and 3 for my oldest, but we'd only been using it occasionally, for things like zoo trips, for a long time before that.  

We took our kids to DC when they were 4 and 5 though, and because we hadn't been using the stroller for so long, it never occurred to us to take one to DC, and we really regretted that, because even though dealing with a stroller and the metro would have been awful, twenty thousand steps a day is a lot when you're carrying a four year old for most of it.  And the four year old went on a complete walking strike that trip.  She was both physically exhausted and emotionally overwhelmed, and we wound up carrying her a ton.  Even the 5 year old got carried a good bit.  It was perhaps the most tired I've ever been.  

I think about Joanne's "get off your butt" parenting strategy a lot with preschoolers.  Not only do I hear people saying that spanking is not okay (which it's not), but that time out is not okay, and that it's inappropriate to ever hold a boundary for a child.  I'm not a reward/ punishment person, in general, but there are some things that are just absolutely not okay to do.  But I think the gentle parenting experts of today (and I adore many of them) do an excellent job of convincing people that you will damage a child if you impose consequences of almost any kid, but they don't do a good job of teaching parents how you can parent gently but also firmly while you are in control. 

[TechWife]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:24 AM, Laura Corin said:

I'm not sure about this. AP level classes are roughly equivalent in level to the A-levels that are necessary for pupils in England to be accepted into university. They are considered school--level, not university-level and no credits transfer to the university. 

Schools do not provide transcripts, so the exam results are the only criteria.  University drop out levels are fairly low, so I don't think there is mass burn out.

 

On 12/28/2023 at 5:48 AM, regentrude said:

I don't think that is true. Other countries routinely cover material in highschool that is labeled "college" level in the US.

For example, the algebra based "college physics" course I teach compares roughly to what we did in 10th grade, and most "college composition" courses cover basic language mechanics that should have been dealt with by 9th grade.

College has become a place for remediating a highschool education that demands far less from its students than what kids in other developed countries are capable of learning. 

What is developmentally inappropriate is the early push for academics in elementary school. It's also useless,  especially when coupled with the warehousing without appropriate challenge that follows it in the middle grades.

I understand that other countries have higher academic standards than the US does and I think that’s great. I wish we were there. I also think that because of the higher academic standards, students are more developmentally ready when they get to the higher level course work. They have been incrementally prepared academically in a developmentally appropriate way. I do not think that’s the  case in the US. I’m not convinced at all that the lower grades in the US prepare typical students for that level of work that early on. People who don’t have basic math down pat aren’t ready for any AP math. People who can’t follow the plot line of a play or write a cohesive paper aren’t  ready for AP anything. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

 

I understand that other countries have higher academic standards than the US does and I think that’s great. I wish we were there. I also think that because of the higher academic standards, students are more developmentally ready when they get to the higher level course work. They have been incrementally prepared academically in a developmentally appropriate way. I do not think that’s the  case in the US. I’m not convinced at all that the lower grades in the US prepare typical students for that level of work that early on. People who don’t have basic math down pat aren’t ready for any AP math. People who can’t follow the plot line of a play or write a cohesive paper aren’t  ready for AP anything. 

We also have to remember that many other countries  are tracking children from a relatively young age, so the students taking college prep level classes in high school have often been on that track for a long time. Plus, many other countries don’t have people take distribution requirements in college, students have completed the equivalent of those in high school and focus on their major in college.

[catz]

I have Gen Z kids.  And we literally took our kids to regional and regularly camped at national parks.  We hiked and walked miles.   I was home, we were out constantly.  And sometimes I shoved even my small for age, extremely high energy older kid in a bike trailer with sibling so I could have a quiet walk or jog or ride for 30 minutes.  And sometimes, usually an older male with grey hair, would mansplain why I shouldn't do that.  You can't judge parenting in very quick snippets you see out in public.  I assume in these moments people are doing the best they can with the kids and energies they have available.  

I have been following this and I have mixed feelings.  I will say, in our homeschool world, it isn't always the homeschoolers that are better behaved.  There was (and are) lots of dx and un-dxed neurodiversity in our secular homeschooling world and no shortage of feral behavior.  Definitely got the feeling some people weren't setting their kids up well for real life.  But I also feel like parent's mental health and proclivities can play into it.  And that in general, most people are doing the best they can.  And I've also watched some families over many years that I had quiet concerns about and their kids launched out to adulthood in one way or another.  

I will also say I was talking with an acquaintence who is a prof at a big 10 U not long ago.  And she said there is a big difference in her students post covid.  Like they didn't come to college with the independance, communication and adulting skills they did pre-covid.  I do think this has affected kids at all ages and phases.

I also have mixed feelings on how mental health is talked about.  I was absolutely a kid with anxiety.  Emotions were not really tolerable or worth dealing with in my family of origin.  And I had a lot of emotional work to do as a young adult.  That did mean therapy, and prioritizing myself and picking and chosing relationships to continue.  Both my kids have been anxious and I have been SUPER intentional about talking through emotional processing.  And they are much more self assured and resiliant and mature young adults than I was.   Though again, far from a perfect parent myself.  I just don't have a lot of patience for the pining for the "good ole days".  Because I think that is just ignoring problems that were there but just ignored and neveer discussed.  I will say, I forced my kids to do things CONSTNANTLY.  But we would talk them through.  It wasn't "because I said so".  

There is a lot of hand wringing on this board about young adults backing away from parents.  But at the same time I know families personally where this happened where the parents continued to treat a kid like a minor, give unsolicited advice, not listen to them and their priorities.  And not being remotely self aware about how they were self sabotaging the relationship that really needed to evolve.  And sometimes taking a break for a time will allow everyone some time to reset the adult parent-child relationship at a later date.  I know both my parents very intentionally moved away from FOO because of borderline emotionally unhealthy overparenting.  I actually think a lot of it really isn't new.  It is just talked about more and maybe manifests differently.  

I will say this holiday season was the most "normal" we have had since covid started.  We have been very conservative, but just pretty much ripped the bandage off this year.  So we got together with my sibling and his family.  Literally haven't seen them all since before covid.  They have a high schooler that plays a sport.  The entire 3 hour event was 90% talking about this kid, this sport, the suburban gossip about the sport including bad mouthing parents, players, how jealous everyone is of this kid, the college dreams.  Like each my kids were high achieving in high school that barely ever got a passing mention when we'd be with these people. It didn't even occur to me until the next day how rude  and inappropriate this whole interaction was.   And I'm not sure it's something I could have imagined prior to covid?  Anyway, I just wonder how much social recalibration is going on post covid.  Also how kids have suffered academically due to it as well.  

We also have the issue in that we live in a society that isn't really interested in investing in health, education and families.  

Anyway, that was all over the place.  Very interesting discussion, thanks.

Edited January 1 by catz