John Oliver on homeschooling

[prairiewindmomma]

Anyone want to talk about this? I thought this was fairly balanced for a comedy show. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[HomeAgain]

For a moment I thought I was getting a new chef! 😄

 

I think he did a decent job of scratching the surface of some major issues, including HSLDA.  I don't like the HSLDA at all, and he was able to outline some of why they are not a great organization so kudos to him.

[TheReader]

Will watch later, but maybe edit the title, LOL! I was curious what British chef Jamie Oliver was going to say about homeschooling! 🤣

[Katy]

I thought it was balanced too, but I was totally confused why a chef would have a comedy show… I think you mean John Oliver, not Jamie. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Forgot to add: listen to with headphones on if kids are around. He uses colorful language.

[prairiewindmomma]

Sorry, changed title. Goodness. I am trying to give up caffeine. Day one is not going well. 😂

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I didn’t hate it.  I disagree that more oversight will do much though. I was homeschooled in one of the highest regulation states, and nobody really checked up that what was on the quarterly reports was accurate. Plenty of parents just copied down the scope and sequence of the textbooks they were half using and put that in there.  Nobody really paid attention if kids were scoring below 10% on the standardized tests and I knew lots of kids who’s parents would change answers or give plenty of extra time or whatever.  I know a lot of homeschooled graduates who floundered in college or adult life because of oversheltering and abysmal homeschooling.  
And I also know many homeschoolers who have thrived in adulthood and received an excellent homeschool education; I consider myself one of them.

Bad parents are going to bad parent, unfortunately, whether they homeschool or not. I could get behind requirements that students take standardized tests in a school setting or be evaluated by an actual certified teacher every two or three years(not a homeschooling mom who was a certified teacher years ago and will sign anything) with recognition of learning differences and such.  I know that isn’t a popular opinion, and I wish I could homeschool my kid with no interaction with the public school system at all, but I also truly do know adults that were very handicapped by abysmal homeschooling and are now abysmally homeschooling their own kids.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I did appreciate that he drew the distinction around what bad parents do, regardless of homeschooling or not.

 

 

[HomeAgain]

35 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I didn’t hate it.  I disagree that more oversight will do much though. I was homeschooled in one of the highest regulation states, and nobody really checked up that what was on the quarterly reports was accurate. Plenty of parents just copied down the scope and sequence of the textbooks they were half using and put that in there.  Nobody really paid attention if kids were scoring below 10% on the standardized tests and I knew lots of kids who’s parents would change answers or give plenty of extra time or whatever.  I know a lot of homeschooled graduates who floundered in college or adult life because of oversheltering and abysmal homeschooling.  
And I also know many homeschoolers who have thrived in adulthood and received an excellent homeschool education; I consider myself one of them.

Bad parents are going to bad parent, unfortunately, whether they homeschool or not. I could get behind requirements that students take standardized tests in a school setting or be evaluated by an actual certified teacher every two or three years(not a homeschooling mom who was a certified teacher years ago and will sign anything) with recognition of learning differences and such.  I know that isn’t a popular opinion, and I wish I could homeschool my kid with no interaction with the public school system at all, but I also truly do know adults that were very handicapped by abysmal homeschooling and are now abysmally homeschooling their own kids.

 

I cannot remember who it was (Newelma?) who posted NZ's homeschool application link.  The amount of thought that parents would need to go through in the US to be able to do the same would be beneficial to every kid homeschooled.

Bad parents are going to be bad parents.  The goal should be to balance a child's right to an education and place in society with a parent's right to determine the methods and location of the education.  I've lived in no-reg states and was actually scared by what parents were doing to their kids.  I live in a "high reg" state that doesn't require much at all, but at least in the districts that keep tabs, parents have to put in at least the minimal effort to make sure they produce some sort of thought about what they're doing at home.  I think if they knew they had a yearly interview there would be less kids slipping through the cracks.

 

[Heartstrings]

24 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I think if they knew they had a yearly interview there would be less kids slipping through the cracks.

I think it would drive more people underground.   
 

I don’t like subjective measures.  A standardized test with a certain minimum score is one thing, but asking for a someone to interview me, where they come to the table with all of their biases and opinions would be a hard no.
 

Of course I’d LOVE if we subjected every parent to whatever they come up with for homeschoolers.  Under 5s, kids in private school, kids in daycare, public school kids.  Think of the abuse we could uncover or prevent.  How much better would schools be if they were questioned and held accountable for kids who score poorly on tests.    

If it’s good for the goose…

[Clarita]

I want to watch the video later. I live in a low regulation state. I'd be scared to go at it alone given how low the regulations are. According to MIL I don't even have to tell anyone how many children I'm homeschooling. No one needs to ever see them. Even as a homeschooler that seems way too low. The interesting thing is one of the reasons it's that low is because homeschooling falls under the umbrella of private school; that definitely gave me pause for concern,

[Starr]

We were in a high regulation state. They collected our information and quarterly reports and testing but the school districts didn’t have funding for follow up. 

[maize]

I'm in favor of carrots over sticks. Expand educational choice funding, including flexible virtual charter schools and homeschool vouchers.

Equip families with resources.

Most parents want good things for their kids, and fewer homechooled kids will experience academic neglect if their families have funds available to pay for tutors and in-person or online classes.

We can't guarantee that no child will be neglected or abused, but in general more resources for families will benefit kids.

In terms of oversight to try to catch serious abuse, I might be OK with something not targeted specifically at homeschoolers--say, a requirement that all children be seen by a medical professional at least once a year, with free options (say, a county health clinic, maybe free community clinic days) available. Again, incentivize it--each kid that shows up gets a small gift card or something.

[Clemsondana]

I tend to think that the only thing that will make life better for kids is for adults to create more communities for kids and families to be a part of.  Every activity that a kid or family member participates in give the kid a chance to be seen by more people who can talk to them.  Participation in sports means that they get at least a sports physical.  Youth from the neighborhood wander to our church to participate in youth events even though we've never met their parents. They are known by the adults who volunteer with the group. There are people who simultaneously complain that homeschoolers need to be socialized and supervised while fighting against them participating in the marching band or their teams competing in academic and athletic competitions.  This makes no sense.  We are so fortunate to be in an environment where people seem to see homeschooling as just another education option, no stranger than if we sent our kids to the public, private, or charter schools available in our town.  The public school principals and athletic directors have been more than willing to jump through the necessary hoops to let homeschoolers participate to whatever extent the regulating agencies allow.  Organizations and people who offer lessons have homeschool classes during the day and create places where homeschooled kids have long-term friendships and a great social experience in addition to doing the activity and also welcome homeschooled kids to their afterschool classes.  

I'll admit that nobody in these cases is checking for academic progress, but there is plenty of opportunity to see that the kids are functional and not neglected.  Adults talk to the kids and can tell that they have at least some level of proficiency in the world.  Based on what I see with kids in public schools, that's as much as many of the kids there are getting.  

I don't know what could possibly catch all people who mistreat and neglect kids, and I'd be concerned that more supervision of homeschoolers would drive some people to be secretive.  How would anybody find people who choose to live 'off the grid', not in the homesteading way, but in the 'avoid interacting with people so that we can mistreat our kids' way?  But, with community involvement, there is a bigger chance that another parent asks if things are OK, or 2 moms discuss what their kid is doing in math class and they figure out that their kid is behind or ahead.  I know that some people never get involved in anything, but considering that many abusers send their kid to school it wouldn't surprise me that they'd take their kid to ball or youth group if it's free/cheap.  

Standardized testing is fine, but since it's never going to be aligned with what is being taught in a particular homeschool it is only so useful.  I remember one of my kids taking a test at their umbrella school and the supervisor having to explain that 6*7 is the same as 6x7.  They probably aren't supposed to do that, but they (correctly) decided that it was the right way to actually test what math the kids knew.  Another year, my kid came out asking about a science question involving the purpose in putting plastic wrap over young plants.  Kid had immediately eliminated the correct answer, which had to do with preventing water evaporation, because in our area spring is often so wet that we are concerned about root rot and seeds washing away, so clearly preventing water from evaporating wasn't something that was a typical part of the process.  In other words, my kid's knowledge, limited but also real world, didn't align with the theoretical teaching about planting in pots.  

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I think it would drive more people underground.   
 

I don’t like subjective measures.  A standardized test with a certain minimum score is one thing, but asking for a someone to interview me, where they come to the table with all of their biases and opinions would be a hard no.
 

Of course I’d LOVE if we subjected every parent to whatever they come up with for homeschoolers.  Under 5s, kids in private school, kids in daycare, public school kids.  Think of the abuse we could uncover or prevent.  How much better would schools be if they were questioned and held accountable for kids who score poorly on tests.    

If it’s good for the goose…

Where I am, we have to register every two years.

That involves an interview in the home. 

An official comes to check the home is suitable, that the parents understand the curriculum, that they have a plan to meet minimum standards, to assess progress etc.

At least half of the homeschoolers I knew just didn't register because they weren't prepared to jump through those hoops.

I'd LOVE schools to be more accountable. I see straight up educational neglect every day, no joke.

 

[cintinative]

SWB posted this on FB  https://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2023/09/homeschooling-and-red-herrings/

I haven't watched the John Oliver video but it sort of sounds like it would be an interesting contrast of position

[HomeAgain]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I think it would drive more people underground.   
 

I don’t like subjective measures.  A standardized test with a certain minimum score is one thing, but asking for a someone to interview me, where they come to the table with all of their biases and opinions would be a hard no.
 

Of course I’d LOVE if we subjected every parent to whatever they come up with for homeschoolers.  Under 5s, kids in private school, kids in daycare, public school kids.  Think of the abuse we could uncover or prevent.  How much better would schools be if they were questioned and held accountable for kids who score poorly on tests.    

If it’s good for the goose…

I don't believe it would drive more underground.  States with higher regulations do not have more kids slipping through the cracks than states like Texas, which has no regulations.

You have missed the fundamental fact that children have a right to an education and a safe home.  Your arguments center on "well, they don't do it to kids THAT ARE SEEN BY OTHER ADULTS WHO ARE MANDATED REPORTERS DURING THE DAY." which honestly shows how completely the point was missed about the need for someone other the parents to be able to know that the kids are fine.

It's not so much about poor test scores - schools are teaching, though poorly.  They're doing a job.  And parents' rights don't supersede the rights of children.  Right now, for abused and neglected kids, homeschooling is an easy path of least resistance.  Nobody ever has to know because nobody cares enough to create a law that puts the kids first.

You really should watch the John Oliver video to be able to debate with it.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

I don't believe it would drive more underground.  States with higher regulations do not have more kids slipping through the cracks than states like Texas, which has no regulations.

You have missed the fundamental fact that children have a right to an education and a safe home.  Your arguments center on "well, they don't do it to kids THAT ARE SEEN BY OTHER ADULTS WHO ARE MANDATED REPORTERS DURING THE DAY." which honestly shows how completely the point was missed about the need for someone other the parents to be able to know that the kids are fine.

It's not so much about poor test scores - schools are teaching, though poorly.  They're doing a job.  And parents' rights don't supersede the rights of children.  Right now, for abused and neglected kids, homeschooling is an easy path of least resistance.  Nobody ever has to know because nobody cares enough to create a law that puts the kids first.

You really should watch the John Oliver video to be able to debate with it.

I don’t think anything I said warranted that kind of response.  You obviously have strong feelings about this, but I think directing them at me is misplaced.  

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, cintinative said:

SWB posted this on FB  https://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2023/09/homeschooling-and-red-herrings/

I haven't watched the John Oliver video but it sort of sounds like it would be an interesting contrast of position

 

5 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I don't believe it would drive more underground.  States with higher regulations do not have more kids slipping through the cracks than states like Texas, which has no regulations.

You have missed the fundamental fact that children have a right to an education and a safe home.  Your arguments center on "well, they don't do it to kids THAT ARE SEEN BY OTHER ADULTS WHO ARE MANDATED REPORTERS DURING THE DAY." which honestly shows how completely the point was missed about the need for someone other the parents to be able to know that the kids are fine.

It's not so much about poor test scores - schools are teaching, though poorly.  They're doing a job.  And parents' rights don't supersede the rights of children.  Right now, for abused and neglected kids, homeschooling is an easy path of least resistance.  Nobody ever has to know because nobody cares enough to create a law that puts the kids first.

You really should watch the John Oliver video to be able to debate with it.

Did you read SWB’s article?

[Clarita]

The SWB article is an interesting contrast of position. 

I don't know how much oversight will help in preventing child abuse. Child abuse happens at public school, abused children fall through the cracks while attending public school as well. Abusive adults are really good at grooming children. 

I agree with @maizeabout offering supports to parents. 

[Carrie12345]

I haven’t finished watching the show yet. I am a fan of JO.

One of the issues I was digging into even before picking a major was mandated reporting.  Required reporting with risk of penalty for not reporting doesn’t appear to have a significant positive impact on identifying abuse, compared to non-mandated reporting. But it DOES significantly increase the number of reports that must be taken, screened, and investigated by an overstretched workforce.  
No teacher (or whomever) wants to lose their job if that bruise wasn’t from the jungle gym. (Are jungle gyms still a thing?)

Putting fear into innocent people generally isn’t good. My kids are well taken care of, but my health care system is the one under investigation for labeling 40% of the Munchausen By Proxy cases in our whole state and ripping families apart. Do I feel particularly comfortable taking my kids to this system??? (Well, at the moment, yes. They’re unlikely to over label while under investigation, but ykwim.)

The Duggars had the world watching them, a community, and regular people in their home. That YouTube family had the world watching them and relatives calling for help. Having eyes on evil people on a regular basis doesn’t cure evil.

I HATE when I see homeschoolers who don’t meet my standards. But I also know I don’t meet the standards of many others. I didn’t want my kids to have a public school education.   I’ve wanted them to explore and become functional adults, which can be a thing for public schoolers but public schooling isn’t essential for that outcome. If I had to educate to ps standards, there’s be little point for our family to homeschool right now.   
(When they were little, I still wanted them home because of Dh’s schedule.)

[scholastica]

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 

Did you read SWB’s article?

Just to be clear, SWB did not write the article. She linked to it. The author is Nadya Williams.

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, as a music teacher who teaches homeschoolers (and offers very, very low cost classes for the homeschool community), I've had several students where my neurodiversity or disability triggers got flipped due to what I saw in class. 

 

In 100% of the cases, the parent was already well aware-and in many cases, it was WHY the child was homeschooled. Either they'd been in school and were falling through those cracks, or the parent feared that it would happen and was heading it off at the pass. 

 

In some cases, I've been able to recommend supports (like that you CAN get an IEP for a child who is homeschooled, that the state does have an IEA program which pays for private services for a child who qualifies for an IEP, and stuff like that.), in many more cases, I've learned about things I can then recommend to other parents FROM these parents. 

 

I also agree with the article-the perception that homeschoolers can't possibly have the knowledge classroom teachers have doesn't ring true for me because I've been on both sides. I've been a teacher, I've trained teachers. I've also been a homeschool parent. I know a LOT of former teachers and other professionals who, like me, realized the schools weren't set up for our kids, and that we could either fight the system (and likely win, but would be pulling resources from other kids who DIDN'T have parents who knew how to fight) or we could DIY it. I also know a lot of homeschooling parents who never went to college who sound like they have a doctorate in special education because they've so deeply self-educated themselves to teach their kids. 

 

I know there are homeschooling horror stories. But I'm not convinced that the answer is to not allow homeschooling or even require increased oversight. I DO think that if they'd fund programs like community centers and public libraries better it would help a lot. If the homeschool co-op can get space for free or cheaply at a community center or public library, that means that the staff of the library or community center are also now interacting with the kids. If the library or community center can offer low cost  or free ongoing classes to homeschooling children, that provides a support, too. For example, if the library could offer weekly reading groups for different age groups, just like they do for preschool, where parents have to sign up and commit for the semester, that means that kids who are reading well below age/grade level might have a chance of getting caught. If the library or community center could provide reading remediation on site, that would be something we could refer such families to. Offer a science club that involves enough math to be able to assess skills, refer families to low cost or free math classes, etc.

Offer music classes, art classes, PE classes, spelling bees, geography and history challenges, science fairs in the community. No, it won't catch everyone, but it would probably bring in quite a few.  For that matter, offering standardized tests once a year, free of charge, with the results going JUST to the parents, and then the PSAT 7/8, 9/10, NMSQT, and AP exams would help a LOT. 

 

We're doing the 5 year plan for my center, and  this is what I'm pushing for-using these buildings that are mostly empty during the day as a space for homeschoolers. And they'd love to do it, if we had the money. 

[Faith-manor]

Nevermind. Discussions of math expectations on this board never go well. Never.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Faith-manor

[prairiewindmomma]

Only 24% of students scored proficient in math in the 2019 NAEP testing....https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/mathematics/nation/achievement/?grade=12

It's a problem in and out of public school. 

ETA: I do think that many homeschoolers are very different than those 15-20 years ago.  While there has always been a % of people who, like the Duggars, never really got their kids college ready....15-20 years ago most of the people were dedicated to academic rigor, even if the moms struggled to teach, iykwim. They had standards and held their kids to them.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Only 24% of students scored proficient in math in the 2019 NAEP testing....https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/mathematics/nation/achievement/?grade=12

It's a problem in and out of public school. 

ETA: I do think that many homeschoolers are very different than those 15-20 years ago.  While there has always been a % of people who, like the Duggars, never really got their kids college ready....15-20 years ago most of the people were dedicated to academic rigor, even if the moms struggled to teach, iykwim. They had standards and held their kids to them.

 

Agreed. And I knew parents who were struggling, an so they hired tutors, or enrolled their older kids in dual enrollment, or in the case of some moms, signed up for college math and science classes or college comp, and took those classes in advance of their students arriving at upper level work so they would have the knowledge and confidence to teach their own. This was because the motivation was academic, for their kids to get a solid, well rounded, foundational education that they could build on, and their kids either didn't fit the mold well for PS, or their PS was falling down on the job with a lot of their students for a wide variety of reasons like too high a student to teacher ratio or whatever. Now I feel like the motivations for homeschooling often have nothing to do with education itself.

[bolt.]

To be honest, long division with decimals is pretty much a touch-and-go skill. My kids learned it in upper elementary sometime, like 5th or 6th grade, in public school -- but they needed to have long division itself reviewed a few times throughout junior high before they had some ease with it. Only after they had some ease, I was tacking on, "And this is how it works with decimals." -- and just a few examples and exercises. Why so little emphasis? Because beyond junior high age, students are expected to pull out a calculator for a calculation like that. Especially in physics. It's not a skill with long-lasting relevance.

[Heartstrings]

I think its helpful to really separate out potential requirements that are meant to prevent abuse and those that are meant to ensure an education.  We tend to conflate the 2 issues when we're talking about this topic.  Seeing a doctor once a year doesn't ensure an education, standardized tests do nothing to prevent abuse.  Which problem are we trying to solve?  

 

[Heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, bolt. said:

To be honest, long division with decimals is pretty much a touch-and-go skill. My kids learned it in upper elementary sometime, like 5th or 6th grade, in public school -- but they needed to have long division itself reviewed a few times throughout junior high before they had some ease with it. Only after they had some ease, I was tacking on, "And this is how it works with decimals." -- and just a few examples and exercises. Why so little emphasis? Because beyond junior high age, students are expected to pull out a calculator for a calculation like that. Especially in physics. It's not a skill with long-lasting relevance.

Going through Alg 1 right now with my middlest kiddo and really all of the emphasis is on fractions, radicals in fractions, polynomials in fraction form, solving for x in a fraction, every day is some sort of fraction.  Decimals aren't a huge focus.  It's probably been a year since we covered decimal division.  It was understood back then, or we wouldn't have moved on, but we'd probably need to do a quick review before doing it again.  

[Clemsondana]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

I have a today sample.

Mark and I teach an online, zoom aerospace/rocketry class to a group of 8 home schoolers all from different families. The minimum age is 12 and maximum 16, or 7th-11th grades whichever peg works.

These are all neurotypical kids. We asked that parents not enroll kids with learning disabilities simply because by zoom, we don't have the ability to provide essential assistance though we have worked in person with a variety of learners in the past.

They were testing out surfaces for the effects of friction on velocity. Now that sounds rather auspicious, but this is what it was. Pick three different matchbox vehicles from among the options (our daughter provided them and weighed them in advance so each one had a different mass), and time the car from release to the finish line at the end of a ramp our daughter also constructed that had three different lanes which of course had different surfaces. Stop watches that have time to the hundredths of a second were provided. 3-2-1 time, write that down on the lab sheet, do it three times for each lane. Lanes were sanded smooth wood, felt glued to the surface of the second lane, and aluminum foil on the third so very different surfaces. Take the results for each lane, average, compare results. We showed them how to do this on a white board, very slowly and patiently walking through each step.

6 of the 8 students could not do it. So here is an example, results 1.32, 1.31, 1.36. Add, 3.99/3 =. And again, we talked through this.

6 students have never done long division, never divided with decimals. 12-16 year olds. Supposedly 7th - 11th grades.

We walked them meticulously and patiently through the process for each group for each lane. At the end, we actually had students thank us for teaching them how to do the math.

I weep. In all our years of teaching STEM, we have never had it this bad. Never. We have had public school students, private school students, and homeschooled students, and all of the neurotypical kids in this age group could manage a lot of math if they were provided with proper instruction from us. It was a matter of self confidence and learning how to use foundational skills in an applied setting. Our NASA student launch team of six students was four homeschoolers, one public school student, one private school student. None of them had even had trigonometry. Three were middle school students. Every single one of them learned to do the math for descent rates, drift analysis, Barrowman's equations, Boyle's law to calculate ejection charges. One of the three homeschooled students was behind the 7th grader, mathematically, despite being 15, but he was able to do it without a huge amount of angst because he could do his basics well.

So ya. This new breed of home schooler who apparently either can't do 5th grade math but thinks they should homeschool upper grades anyway or just tosses a math book at their kids and like spaghetti noodles on a wall, hopes something sticks, is not my favorite breed of educator.

And yes, I know y'all know someone who went to PS and can't do it either. But shouldn't people be trying to do better than what their PS is doing?

I know, I know....I am being judgy, very judgy. Sigh.

I enjoy these students. We will keep on keeping on and take them as far as we can. We are limited in what projects we can even tackle because their parents have told them they should never be assigned anything that would require them to work on it independently at home. So it further limits what they can learn.I don't see any of them being prepared for certification classes like CNA, Medical Assisting, LPN, trade school, and most certainly not college. All these things require the student to study at home and do work outside of class.

What I'm seeing is that there are more kids at the extremes.  When I teach, I have more grades of 97+ and more failing grades, with almost no B/C students.  I've got kids who insist that they don't understand math at all and kids taking DE calc.  And, sometimes you just get an unusual group.  Our co-op has an exceptional group of seniors  Teachers have been saying for years that they are really going to miss this group.  Behind them...we have a kid who left the co-op to do DE because there were no other peers willing to do the work - for the first time, we aren't offering a couple of our academic classes because there aren't any students who will put in the effort to do them.  The courses will rotate back in a year or 2, I'd expect.  There was a super strong group, then a super not-going-to-work group, and then there is a 'typical' group coming up behind them.  It's not a covid thing - these kids have been like this since they were young.  So, you could just have a weird group - I hope that's the case.  

[Melissa Louise]

Different groups in different years happens in schools too.

I don't know what people think happens in schools.

That it standardizes the children? So that they all come out average or above average?

This is not how schools work, even 'good' schools.

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

42 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I think its helpful to really separate out potential requirements that are meant to prevent abuse and those that are meant to ensure an education.  We tend to conflate the 2 issues when we're talking about this topic.  Seeing a doctor once a year doesn't ensure an education, standardized tests do nothing to prevent abuse.  Which problem are we trying to solve?  

 

Yes, it's frustrating to see the two conflated.

Of course, educational neglect is part of abuse, but there are standards for educational abuse too, it's not just 'homeschooled child failed to meet or exceed  whatever bar I have in my head about the norm'.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I would love to increase the quality of public education—increased staffing, increased standards and training for staffing, increased funding for interventions (behavioral and educational), proper curricula, and so on. I think a not-small % of homeschoolers today homeschool because they see issues with public schools and homeschooling has become a school of last resort.

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

I have a today sample.

Mark and I teach an online, zoom aerospace/rocketry class to a group of 8 home schoolers all from different families. The minimum age is 12 and maximum 16, or 7th-11th grades whichever peg works.

These are all neurotypical kids. We asked that parents not enroll kids with learning disabilities simply because by zoom, we don't have the ability to provide essential assistance though we have worked in person with a variety of learners in the past.

They were testing out surfaces for the effects of friction on velocity. Now that sounds rather auspicious, but this is what it was. Pick three different matchbox vehicles from among the options (our daughter provided them and weighed them in advance so each one had a different mass), and time the car from release to the finish line at the end of a ramp our daughter also constructed that had three different lanes which of course had different surfaces. Stop watches that have time to the hundredths of a second were provided. 3-2-1 time, write that down on the lab sheet, do it three times for each lane. Lanes were sanded smooth wood, felt glued to the surface of the second lane, and aluminum foil on the third so very different surfaces. Take the results for each lane, average, compare results. We showed them how to do this on a white board, very slowly and patiently walking through each step.

6 of the 8 students could not do it. So here is an example, results 1.32, 1.31, 1.36. Add, 3.99/3 =. And again, we talked through this.

6 students have never done long division, never divided with decimals. 12-16 year olds. Supposedly 7th - 11th grades.

We walked them meticulously and patiently through the process for each group for each lane. At the end, we actually had students thank us for teaching them how to do the math.

I weep. In all our years of teaching STEM, we have never had it this bad. Never. We have had public school students, private school students, and homeschooled students, and all of the neurotypical kids in this age group could manage a lot of math if they were provided with proper instruction from us. It was a matter of self confidence and learning how to use foundational skills in an applied setting. Our NASA student launch team of six students was four homeschoolers, one public school student, one private school student. None of them had even had trigonometry. Three were middle school students. Every single one of them learned to do the math for descent rates, drift analysis, Barrowman's equations, Boyle's law to calculate ejection charges. One of the three homeschooled students was behind the 7th grader, mathematically, despite being 15, but he was able to do it without a huge amount of angst because he could do his basics well.

So ya. This new breed of home schooler who apparently either can't do 5th grade math but thinks they should homeschool upper grades anyway or just tosses a math book at their kids and like spaghetti noodles on a wall, hopes something sticks, is not my favorite breed of educator.

And yes, I know y'all know someone who went to PS and can't do it either. But shouldn't people be trying to do better than what their PS is doing?

I know, I know....I am being judgy, very judgy. Sigh.

I enjoy these students. We will keep on keeping on and take them as far as we can. We are limited in what projects we can even tackle because their parents have told them they should never be assigned anything that would require them to work on it independently at home. So it further limits what they can learn.I don't see any of them being prepared for certification classes like CNA, Medical Assisting, LPN, trade school, and most certainly not college. All these things require the student to study at home and do work outside of class.

My daughter could not math.

She was mixed homeschool/school.

She couldn't math at home. She couldn't math at school.

She had no learning disability diagnosed.

She went to university. She had to learn stats. She learned stats. She got her honours degree. She got a graduate job. She is rocketing up the ladder in her professional, graduate job.

Judging her from her ability with Year 5 maths (or the education I gave her) really would not have been a good thing to do, nor would it have indicated anything about her academic or professional future, and if an outside teacher had pulled me aside to tell me that, I would not have taken it well either.

I didn't homeschool to standardize my kids. I homeschooled to give them an education that met their highly asynchronous needs.

I registered dutifully, had people come to my home to assess it, produced my detailed lesson and progress plans, was used as a 'model' in training other assessors. No educational neglect. No neglect does not equate to all children jumping the same hoops at the same time.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I would love to increase the quality of public education—increased staffing, increased standards and training for staffing, increased funding for interventions (behavioral and educational), proper curricula, and so on. I think a not-small % of homeschoolers today homeschool because they see issues with public schools and homeschooling has become a school of last resort.

 

Where I am, a lot of people home school because mainstream schools are not set up to deal with disability, incl autism, and yet their kids are failed by special schools as well, which don't provide integration or appropriate academic challenge. So they turn to homeschooling.

Another cohort enter homeschooling in desperation after their child has been bullied over a long period of time and the school cannot deal with it effectively.

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Where I am, a lot of people home school because mainstream schools are not set up to deal with disability, incl autism, and yet their kids are failed by special schools as well, which don't provide integration or appropriate academic challenge. So they turn to homeschooling.

Another cohort enter homeschooling in desperation after their child has been bullied over a long period of time and the school cannot deal with it effectively.

 

 

Right, and here in the US often when you withdraw a student you lose access to curricula funding, neuropsych testing/PT/SL-P and other things. The “free” stuff is done through schools only and most districts require enrollment to access services.

So, parents have already lost an income to be at home to teach—it makes funding any of the rest harder.

I would love to see the funding rules change so that any child under the age of 19 (22 if SPED) could be able to access services and be able to access tutoring and other help. We’ve gotten into a weird place because of legislation and court cases and aren’t best serving students. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Right, and here in the US often when you withdraw a student you lose access to curricula funding, neuropsych testing/PT/SL-P and other things. The “free” stuff is done through schools only and most districts require enrollment to access services.

So, parents have already lost an income to be at home to teach—it makes funding any of the rest harder.

I would love to see the funding rules change so that any child under the age of 19 (22 if SPED) could be able to access services and be able to access tutoring and other help. We’ve gotten into a weird place because of legislation and court cases and aren’t best serving students. 

Regarding education itself and leaving aside non-educational abuse, I'd like to see the focus in general shift here. How can we, as societies, best serve students across a variety of educational settings - schools, homes etc.

Not this pitting of one against another - individualized education will always have to exist because institutional learning can't adequately cater for every student.

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Regarding education itself and leaving aside non-educational abuse, I'd like to see the focus in general shift here. How can we, as societies, best serve students across a variety of educational settings - schools, homes etc.

Not this pitting of one against another - individualized education will always have to exist because institutional learning can't adequately cater for every student.

 

 

Well said.

[KungFuPanda]

I finally watched it. I thought it was a good piece and I’m not sure I disagree with any of it. The HSLDA absolutely creeps me out and I shudder when I hear fresh new homeschoolers advise fresher newer homeschoolers to fund them. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Where I am, a lot of people home school because mainstream schools are not set up to deal with disability, incl autism, and yet their kids are failed by special schools as well, which don't provide integration or appropriate academic challenge. So they turn to homeschooling.

Yep! 2e exacerbates this.

[Terabith]

18 hours ago, kbutton said:

Yep! 2e exacerbates this.

Indeed.  I devoured The Well Trained Mind before I even had kids, and I was committed to giving my kids a rigorous classical education.  And I was on track with my oldest to do so, but my youngest was very 2e, and I found myself sitting down and wondering what was really, actually going to be essential for her particular, individual life.  Reading absolutely was.  Spelling.....well, it would be really good, but if it wasn't actually attainable, maybe we could work around being able to spell.  I really wanted to give her an excellent math education, but maybe being able to do long division with a paper and pencil wasn't really necessary when it came down to it if she understood the concept.  And then I had to grapple with whether or not my educational ideals was worth compromising my relationship with my kids, who were becoming increasingly oppositional to my asking them over and over to do things that were really hard for them, and I decided that strong relationship was more important than ideal education.  But at the end of the day, my youngest reads very, very well, and she almost certainly would not have learned to do so in any brick and mortar school outside of maybe a dyslexia school.  I don't think she would be doing nearly as well at 18 as she is if she had had her early school years in a classroom.  (And numerous psychologists, including a school psychologist when she was 7, agreed.)

I actually really liked the John Oliver segment.  I like him in general.  I wish he, and more people who write about homeschooling, would talk about the many, many people who are homeschooling because they want academic excellence for their kids. 

[Shoeless]

22 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

What I'm seeing is that there are more kids at the extremes.  When I teach, I have more grades of 97+ and more failing grades, with almost no B/C students.

Anecdotally, this matches what I see in fb homeschool groups. There are the people doing nothing in particular with their kids on one side, and the people pushing their kids through tons of AP and DE on the other side.  I've been wondering where all the "average" high school kids went.    

[Terabith]

15 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

Anecdotally, this matches what I see in fb homeschool groups. There are the people doing nothing in particular with their kids on one side, and the people pushing their kids through tons of AP and DE on the other side.  I've been wondering where all the "average" high school kids went.    

Honestly, I see this in public schools too.  My 2e kid floored everyone by refusing to do AP English, because she saw the stress levels of all of her peers doing all AP classes and read the course description which included tons of group work and the fact that nobody liked the AP lit teacher.  So she's taking only AP science and social studies classes, which is very confusing and weird.  At public school, you are either in five AP classes every year from tenth grade on and participating in eleven different time consuming extracurricular activities and never having time to sleep or you are in regular classes and high or asleep all the time.  

[Heartstrings]

10 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

Anecdotally, this matches what I see in fb homeschool groups. There are the people doing nothing in particular with their kids on one side, and the people pushing their kids through tons of AP and DE on the other side.  I've been wondering where all the "average" high school kids went.    

As s mom with average high school kids, I usually hang out with the “doing nothing in particular” group.  The “pushing” group usually isn’t very welcoming and their kids are super busy which makes hanging out impossible. There are usually a lot of us that look like we aren’t doing much, but are actually doing “normal” or “average”, we just keep kind of quiet about it.  
 

I know that when I was bit more of a “pusher” I thought the less rigorous folks were guilty of educational neglect, but over many years of seeing the actual outcomes, none of those kids was actually being neglected.  They were just more low key than I was, and their kids have all gone off to college with no problems.  My outsiders perspective just wrong, their parents were loving, involved parents who did well by their children.  Not “Harvard” level but well enough for an easy transition to the local college, with no remedial courses needed, which is Good Enough and better than most public school kids.  

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, I see this in public schools too.  My 2e kid floored everyone by refusing to do AP English, because she saw the stress levels of all of her peers doing all AP classes and read the course description which included tons of group work and the fact that nobody liked the AP lit teacher.  So she's taking only AP science and social studies classes, which is very confusing and weird.  At public school, you are either in five AP classes every year from tenth grade on and participating in eleven different time consuming extracurricular activities and never having time to sleep or you are in regular classes and high or asleep all the time.  

Yeah, we know some of these families, too. Everyone seems stressed and exhausted.

Our local district let's some 9th graders take AP classes. They don't offer enough for everyone to do 5 APs every year, but they do have on campus DE. It just seems like a lot at a young age. 

And before anyone jumps on me, I KNOW there are highly motivated kids and this is their normal and don't hold them back blah blah blah. I just more aware of the gap between extremes. 

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

As s mom with average high school kids, I usually hang out with the “doing nothing in particular” group.  The “pushing” group usually isn’t very welcoming and their kids are super busy which makes hanging out impossible. There are usually a lot of us that look like we aren’t doing much, but are actually doing “normal” or “average”, we just keep kind of quiet about it.  
 

I know that when I was bit more of a “pusher” I thought the less rigorous folks were guilty of educational neglect, but over many years of seeing the actual outcomes, none of those kids was actually being neglected.  They were just more low key than I was, and their kids have all gone off to college with no problems.  My outsiders perspective just wrong, their parents were loving, involved parents who did well by their children.  Not “Harvard” level but well enough for an easy transition to the local college, with no remedial courses needed, which is Good Enough and better than most public school kids.  

Oh, I'm all about the Good Enough. There was a podcast called The Good Enough Homeschool that I really liked, lol! My own kid is HIGHLY unlikely to attend any top 100 school because we're not interested in the hoop-jumping it takes to get into those places. Kiddo and I had long talks about what life would look like if we tried for tippy-top schools vs state schools vs cc vs trade schools. He immediately ruled out anything hyper-competitive and we all breathed a sigh of relief. 

The "nothing in particular" bunch I mentioned has no plans for local college, community college, trade school. nothing.  There are 3 families I'm thinking of specifically where the kids were educated until about 6th/8th-ish grade, and that was that. The parents felt that their own high school experience was pointless and don't think that learning, say, biology or chemistry or art has any relevance to "real life". The kids can read decently, navigate social media very well, and know enough math to make change quickly.  I'm sure their parents love them. I am not sure this is a sufficient education, but I'm also not sure these families would necessarily be more engaged if the kids were in school, either.     

[Clemsondana]

4 hours ago, Shoeless said:

Anecdotally, this matches what I see in fb homeschool groups. There are the people doing nothing in particular with their kids on one side, and the people pushing their kids through tons of AP and DE on the other side.  I've been wondering where all the "average" high school kids went.    

To be fair, very few of the kids take AP, although some of them do DE their senior year (it's free here, so less expensive than taking classes at co-op).  The kids that getting high grades in my class are mostly the ones who do their work, turn it in on time, and, if they are confused about something, they ask or look it up on Khan or Crash Course or in their book.  The kids who are failing take no notes, type the homework questions into google and copy and paste the first paragraph from wikipedia, or don't turn work in.  I have historically had plenty of kids who did reasonable amounts of work but if they didn't get it in class, they didn't put in the effort to find it...those kids tended to get Bs.  The low Bs and Cs tended to be students with the mentality of 'just get through high school' - either they had non-college plans, or they were hit and miss on the work, or they'd do it but not put a ton of effort in.  I don't have judgement about what path kids take - I totally understand the 'A C is good enough to graduate' mentality.  But, I'm flummoxed by people paying for classes and then their kids not doing enough to pass.  It's always happened, usually when the kids have anxiety or something like that, but now there is more 'no oversight' so that parents seem unaware of the fact that their kids are doing nothing unless I contact them.  And, having had parents say things like 'I signed them up and want them to come but we aren't going to do the work' I'm hesitant to do that because the parents don't owe me an explanation of how my class fits their education goals.  You never know - some don't want to be bothered and others get upset if you don't contact them because they don't check their kids grades/work all semester. 

Edited to add: My own kid, a senior, took 5 APs and will have several DE classes from junior/senior year.  This is absolutely appropriate for this kid, but it is definitely an outlier.  My younger kid will likely not have as many, if any, AP classes.  This kid doesn't like school so if there is DE it will be with the goal of helping kid get through college more quickly.  Unlike my older, it will not be for the purpose of adding appropriate challenge.  Younger is capable, but won't want to do more challenge just because it's interesting!  

Edited October 14, 2023 by Clemsondana

[Shoeless]

4 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

But, I'm flummoxed by people paying for classes and then their kids not doing enough to pass.  It's always happened, usually when the kids have anxiety or something like that, but now there is more 'no oversight' so that parents seem unaware of the fact that their kids are doing nothing unless I contact them. 

Do you think this is pandemic related or did it start before the pandemic? 

[Clemsondana]

Just now, Shoeless said:

Do you think this is pandemic related or did it start before the pandemic? 

I've always had at least 1-2 students (out of a max of 20 kids in the live class) like this every year.  Now that I have online students, there are usually 1-2 from that group, too.  I've been teaching live classes for 12 years and online for 6, so it predates the pandemic.  Sometimes it's parents at the end of their rope - usually boys who just won't do the work.  The way that my class is structured, around 1/2 of the points come from work that mostly just needs to be done on time to get full/most credit. The remaining 1/2 is short weekly quizzes and unit tests.  What this means is that if you do the work and then get 50% on tests, you'll get a C.  I did this on purpose - my class is mostly freshmen and many aren't used to tests.  But, shockingly, if they do the work they tend to do reasonably well on tests.  I have never had a student turn in the work and not pass. 

The use of copying and pasting internet answers has gone up a lot in recent years.  I think it's something that people underestimate.  When I first started teaching, students worked really hard to make sure that they understood the material from class so that they could properly learn it when they got home.   Now that my lectures, and many other good lectures, are available online, more students procrastinate, doing nothing in class and thinking that they'll learn it later.  But, there isn't time to watch and learn an hour's worth of lecture at midnight before the work is due, so they copy and paste.  And that gives them 'correct answers' that are often much more complicated than what they were supposed to learn (I say that electrons are involved in forming chemical bonds, their search pulls up a page about orbital theory), so they get overwhelmed and give up. I think it's a tech effect more than a covid effect, since it's gotten worse every year.  People forget that when I first started, 12 years ago, very few students had phones and data plans were even more rare.  It has really changed kids' attention spans, understanding of time, and belief that they can't just 'look it up later'.  I have to consciously fight this with my younger kid, who thinks I'm a weirdo.  I can live with that.  🙂   

I recently read an article that said that many teens get over 200 notifications a day and are interrupted constantly.  When I talked to my students, some go tech-free for hours at a time while others say that they are interrupted every few minutes.  I think there is a lot that we don't understand about how many factors are affecting kids, no matter what their school setting is.  I'm coming to think that extracurriculars have the huge benefit of causing kids go go hours at a time without electronics.  I ponder on this stuff a lot because it varies so much between the different environments that I am in.  At church we have kids who struggle to get through a 15 minute lesson without a phone. 

[Indigo Blue]

He makes good points. I’m not sure what the solutions and compromises could or should be. There definitely is cause for deep concern. However, in our case, ds is an example of a child who was pulled from school because he was being abused and bullied by his TEACHER. He needed to be removed from school for his own protection. Not the other way around. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Indigo Blue
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