If your high school student is overscheduled?

[Drama Llama]

Do you let him figure it out the hard way?

My kid has taken on too much. 

Do I step in and make him drop some things, or do I let him flounder and figure it out for himself?

 

[SKL]

I personally would let him figure it out.

I don't think I ever told my kids they couldn't sign up for something (assuming logistically and economically feasible).  In middle school, they signed up for just about every activity offered through school, and several outside of school.  I did insist that they do all their homework and study for their tests.  But at that age, I didn't consistently enforce individual practice for extracurriculars.

My kids were never superstars in any particular activity.  If that's the goal, then maybe my approach would not work.

[Frances]

18 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

Do you let him figure it out the hard way?

My kid has taken on too much. 

Do I step in and make him drop some things, or do I let him flounder and figure it out for himself?

 

I think there can be a middle ground of asking questions and discussing without making him drop things or just leaving him to flounder. Maybe just start a conversation sometime while you are in the car together by asking how they are feeling about their schedule and various activities and see where it goes. Sometimes just being a sounding board and listening can help them see the light and think through various options.

[Tree Frog]

I do a little of both. I ask how they feel about their schedule, listen, then share my concerns. I give specific possible scenarios and ask how they plan to handle x, y, z given a, b, c. If there's a concern with letting down teammates, we talk about that, too. We look at the schedule, how many hours/days, when is their downtime? I tell them ultimately it's their choice whether to keep all the activities. 

I've found that my kids do better when they have a full schedule. It's too easy to procrastinate when there's not a lot happening. 

My husband and I have different opinions about what is too much. He's a thinker and likes plenty of time just to sit and think. I like to have things to do. If I sit and think, I usually fall asleep. 

If you're providing transportation to all the activities, I would give them options of what they had to keep and eliminate based on what you can provide. 

[Tree Frog]

4 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think there can be a middle ground of asking questions and discussing without making him drop things or just leaving him to flounder. Maybe just start a conversation sometime while you are in the car together by asking how they are feeling about their schedule and various activities and see where it goes. Sometimes just being a sounding board and listening can help them see the light and think through various options.

You said what I wanted to say much more succinctly. Conversations have to continue throughout the year just to touch base. 

[Shoeless]

I'd start the conversation with how he's feeling. Is he stressed? Sleeping enough? Is he anxious? Does he have down time to relax? 

I would also not hesitate to pull rank and make him drop something if he's running himself into the ground and not acknowledging it. Sometimes the still need us to assert boundaries for them. 

[Katy]

This totally depends on the kid, but I'd start by talking about it.

[Kassia]

My kids were all pretty good about knowing what they could handle.  I had one who seemed really overscheduled to me and I expressed my concerns, but he felt confident about it and did fine.  He continued that way through college and now he's 29 and is still overscheduled all the time, but seems to thrive on that lifestyle.  But I do think it's good to talk it through to make sure they know what they are getting into at that age.

 

 

[Jaybee]

I agree with @Frances. Sometimes kids surprise you with what they can (and can't) handle, so I do think it is good to let them work through it. The main thing for me is that they know it is okay to change things. I have often told mine, "I don't ever want you to feel trapped. We can always change things. There are other options."

[TechWife]

As the parent of a former teen, now adult, It would depend on the nature of the floundering.

Parenting teens means a lot of talking & explaining & asking good questions to teach  them to think differently.  That should be the default.

That said,  they shouldn’t have to figure out things on their own all of the time, that’s why they have parents. The push to make kids decide things they aren’t fully equipped to decide can be harmful. We send mixed messages when we require them to decide some “very important things” and then turn around and dictate what they should do in regard to  other “very important things.” They do not understand the difference and, I think, push boundaries that are there for good reasons because they are overburdened and I’ll equipped to make decisions on other “very important things” that also affect their health & well being now and in years to come. They do not know what they do not know. 

Parents make hard decisions because we are the adults and it is our responsibility to make the hard decisions. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by TechWife

[Jaybee]

4 minutes ago, TechWife said:

As the parent of a former teen, now adult, It would depend on the nature of the floundering.

Parenting teens means a lot of talking & explaining & asking good questions to teach  them to think differently.  That should be the default.

That said,  they shouldn’t have to figure out things on their own all of the time, that’s why they have parents. The push to make kids decide things they aren’t fully equipped to decide can be harmful. We send mixed messages when we require them to decide some “very important things” and then turn around and dictate what they should do in regard to  other “very important things.” They do not understand the difference and, I think, push boundaries that are there for good reasons because they are overburdened and I’ll equipped to make decisions on other “very important things” that also affect their health & well being now and in years to come. They do not know what they do not know. 

Parents make hard decisions because we are the adults and it is our responsibility to make the hard decisions. 

I agree with this, also, to a certain extent. But the second sentence, I especially agree with. I would hope to help them come to make a good decision through guidance. But if a teen really does feel like they can handle something, unless it looks like they are going into some kind of danger territory emotionally (in which case that moves it into different territory), it has generally worked best here to let them make the decision. I don't agree with letting them flounder without lots of talking through things--sometimes I have seen things on this board where parents say essentially, "This is their business, stay out of it," and I think, "Well, there are lots of different kinds of kids, there are lots of different scenarios, and maybe my kid needs to be talked through the consequences of "if this, then that, if that, then the other." The teen years are the ages where you are really preparing them for adulthood, and learning to make those hard decisions, preferably with lots of parental guidance, is part of it.

[mommyoffive]

20 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

I agree with @Frances. Sometimes kids surprise you with what they can (and can't) handle, so I do think it is good to let them work through it. The main thing for me is that they know it is okay to change things. I have often told mine, "I don't ever want you to feel trapped. We can always change things. There are other options."

So true.  I was totally overscheduled in high school, by my own choice.  I work well like that though.  The more I have to do the more productive I am.  When I don't have things to do I do mostly nothing.  

I thought odd was overscheduled at different times in high school, but I think she is like me in that way.  She does crazy well when she has tons of stuff going on. 

The only limit I put to it is if it logistically something that the parents have to handle.  

[kirstenhill]

I have a high school student who is often on the verge of being over scheduled.  He can handle quite a bit though, and DH and I both did a lot in high school, so I definitely let him try and just try and talk him through options at various times. 

Last spring he had a full load of classes at school (no open hour) plus an evening college level math class, plus a couple extra curricular activities. I asked him about his plans to fit it all in before he added the extra class, and he had reasonable ideas of how to make it work, and he did it and still great grades. 

This fall he has to work at least one shift per week at his job (that he worked more hours at all summer) in order to be eligible for re hire next year.  This is on top of a bunch of other activities, though he did decide to keep an open hour at school this time! 😁.   I try to make it clear what family or church obligations I "require" of him, and let him sort out everything else.  I remind him that he can decide to skip a night of practice, skip a "fun" church activity, etc, if he needs to study, for example. 

I might be more apt to step in and be a bit more directive if he was making really poor choices with his priorities (choosing clubs/teams/work to the significant detriment of grades, for example).  But he himself finds grades to be his highest priority, so he will always choose that over fun or activities if it really comes down to it. 

[wintermom]

How do you know it's too much? What's his track record like? Does he take on too much and let some things drop, or does he manage things well?

Can you actually make him drop anything? What would that even look like if you tried - is it even worth saying you'd do it? I'd look at the whole picture, of what your relationship is like now and what it will look like in the future. Controlling parents are not fun to deal with. Not saying that you are controlling, but it sounds like it when you're first thought it to "make" your near-adutl child do something, possibly against their will.

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

I agree with this, also, to a certain extent. But the second sentence, I especially agree with. I would hope to help them come to make a good decision through guidance. But if a teen really does feel like they can handle something, unless it looks like they are going into some kind of danger territory emotionally (in which case that moves it into different territory), it has generally worked best here to let them make the decision. I don't agree with letting them flounder without lots of talking through things--sometimes I have seen things on this board where parents say essentially, "This is their business, stay out of it," and I think, "Well, there are lots of different kinds of kids, there are lots of different scenarios, and maybe my kid needs to be talked through the consequences of "if this, then that, if that, then the other." The teen years are the ages where you are really preparing them for adulthood, and learning to make those hard decisions, preferably with lots of parental guidance, is part of it.

I absolutely agree. That’s why I said it depends on the nature of the floundering. 

With the high rates of teen mental illness and the recent study results that show that suicidality increases while school is in session, it’s clear to me that our society, especially parents and those who interact with teens regularly, all need to get better at identifying the tipping point for the start of serious consequences of floundering. We also need to vanquish the widespread use of the “tough love” approach as it doesn’t work long term. 
 

JAMA published study https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2807435

This is not new information- https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of-suicide-increases-on-school-days/

Also - the girls are not okay - for a host of reasons

“The Youth Risk Behavior Survey, which is published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, is the gold standard for measuring the state of teen behavior and mental health. From 2011 to 2021, the survey found, the share of teenage girls who say they experience “persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness” increased from 36 to 57 percent, with the highest jump coming during the coronavirus pandemic. The share of girls who said they’ve contemplated suicide increased 50 percent in the decade. (For teenage boys, the increase was smaller.)”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/americas-teenage-girls-are-not-okay/ar-AA17yLLA

Edited September 10, 2023 by TechWife

[catz]

It depends on the kid and the situation.

If this is a reasonably mature kid who is usually decent at self regulating, I might give it 3-4 weeks to shake out.  There have been times where my kids have had 8000 things on their plate and it has been fine and they figure it out.  I'd keep communications open.  Especially if anything seemed off.

There is a decent chance I would give it a trial with a warning with concerns "I am concerned going X,Y,Z all at once is going to affect your school work/mood/ability to finish homework/getting up in the morning, etc.  If it does, we are going to have a talk and may need to make a hard decision."

With a younger teen who isn't naturally great at regulating mood and executive function, I might just say during this season we can only do X and Y.  But if you want to give Z a try, you can drop one of those after this commitment is over.  

I will say there wer times when my teens were a bit over extended and maybe thing B didn't QUITE get the full attention it deserved.  But it was still very worthwhile to keep that in the mix.  

[J-rap]

Do they seem okay with it themselves?  Or stressed/anxious?  Are they getting enough sleep?  

Depending on the answer, I'd ask them.  A teen might not even realize that they can choose to not be involved in so much.  I think a simple conversation about it from time to time is fine.

[SKL]

We also do better when we have more to do.

My kids got seriously lazy during Covid, and they started high school in 2020, so honestly I was the one pushing them to get out and take more on.  In high school, my kids have been pretty good about realizing that too much is too much.  We don't always agree, but I think this is the time for them to find out via trial and error, at least on things that won't matter in 5-10 years.

[ScoutTN]

Mine was her last two years, but she made it work. Idk if she would do things differently though, even if she could. I did as others have suggested, listened, discussed, and supported, but left the choices to her.
 

She’s enjoying being less busy as a college freshman. Very little driving! Nice to begin with an empty plate on ECs and ease in gradually. 

[Clemsondana]

It really depends on the person.  For some, being busy is stress-inducing.  For others, doing having long stretches of alone-time causes angst.  Some kids work quickly through school, and others need time because they learn more slowly or are taking especially challenging classes.  My family has always left it mostly up to the kids if it works financially/logistically, and I do the same.  My older wound up overloaded during freshman year when we hadn't realized that 2 sports schedules overlapped by months instead of weeks once you get to high school, and after that year kid dropped a sport.  But, kid learned to be very efficient if needed and figured out that dropping a sport was preferable to dropping other activities that kid likes more.  Younger wants to do everything but school work, so when this kid wants to add something I ask where it would fit on the schedule.  We also set the rule that we need evidence of school work being done well and drama-free with the current schedule before considering adding anything else.  If things routinely aren't getting done, I'd talk to kid about what needs to change - working on weekends, dropping an activity, working at the library to avoid tempting distractions - but if things are working and kid is happy then I'm fine with whatever they choose.  

[KungFuPanda]

I say in high school you should let your kid steer while you serve as training wheels. They can drop things later, but you can’t always get IN to things later. What’s the worst case scenario?

I don’t think all stress is bad and it’s good for young adults to find their own limits. He may pull it all off. I had a college advisor try to talk me down from taking “too many” credits, but I powered through and got my bachelor’s in three years. I was busy, but it was fine. 

[Drama Llama]

So, those of you who say your kids were overscheduled too, what was their schedule like?

Here is what he has:

School (including travel time, and sports) 6:45 to 5:30.  

Three days a week he has something in the evening, like tutoring, or therapy or a music lesson.

Plus, music practice, and HW, and I make him eat dinner with the family, and go to bed so he gets 8 hours minimum sleep.  

On the weekends he has:

Saturday activity (including travel) 8 - 4

Sunday activity (including travel) 8:30 - 2:30 most days, some times till 4:30.  

Plus church, which is either Saturday 5:30 - 6:30 or Sunday 7:30 - 8:30 a.m.

and we get together with family on Sunday afternoons/evenings.  

[Danae]

21 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

So, those of you who say your kids were overscheduled too, what was their schedule like?

Here is what he has:

School (including travel time, and sports) 6:45 to 5:30.  

Three days a week he has something in the evening, like tutoring, or therapy or a music lesson.

Plus, music practice, and HW, and I make him eat dinner with the family, and go to bed so he gets 8 hours minimum sleep.  

On the weekends he has:

Saturday activity (including travel) 8 - 4

Sunday activity (including travel) 8:30 - 2:30 most days, some times till 4:30.  

Plus church, which is either Saturday 5:30 - 6:30 or Sunday 7:30 - 8:30 a.m.

and we get together with family on Sunday afternoons/evenings.  

That’s similar to our schedule, except they don’t need to catch the school bus until 8 am, so bedtime can be a bit later and they still get 8 hours sleep. As long as he has enough time to get his homework done I wouldn’t worry about that schedule for a high schooler. 

[Harriet Vane]

38 minutes ago, Danae said:

That’s similar to our schedule, except they don’t need to catch the school bus until 8 am, so bedtime can be a bit later and they still get 8 hours sleep. As long as he has enough time to get his homework done I wouldn’t worry about that schedule for a high schooler. 

Same. 

[kirstenhill]

My DS has a busy season where activities overlap, and this year the job overlaps too.  

So right now, that means school 8-3:30,  a sport 4:30-6:30 or 7pm 3x per week, One day a week college Calc class, 4:15-6:15.  2 days per week academic extracurricular that is supposed to be 6-7:30, but he is going late because of sport/class.  2x per month Friday night church activity.   One work shift either Friday night or Saturday night.  We are just about to start 5 weeks in a row of sports tournaments (early morning to mid afternoon Sundays- we normally have church but he skips for this short season of competition), then overlapping with that he will start competitions for his academic extra curricular, on Saturdays (overlaps competitions for the sport for 3 weeks).  

It is A LOT...but the crazy really only lasts about six weeks.   His job is seasonal and ends mid October, as does the sport season (he only does the one sport per year).  He picks up a couple of other academic extra curriculars that are each 1x per week (but after school, ending at 5) that don't have many competitions.   All three of my kids who are still at home are in the fall sport together, so our family is on the sport crazy train for a couple months (eating dinner late, traveling to the competitions together) but it is a family affair...LOL. 

He is a very driven kid, so wants to be busy and is disciplined to do his homework and somehow manages to sleep 9 hrs a night.  I'm glad the job will be over though by mid October, because somehow that one extra thing makes it feel crazier than last year, when he had all the same things except the job.

[Drama Llama]

8 hours ago, Danae said:

That’s similar to our schedule, except they don’t need to catch the school bus until 8 am, so bedtime can be a bit later and they still get 8 hours sleep. As long as he has enough time to get his homework done I wouldn’t worry about that schedule for a high schooler. 

I feel as though that's a big difference though.  

 

[Soror]

IMHO just because it's normal doesn't make it good. We're all perpetually over scheduled.  I'd have conversations on priorities, needs, wants, mental- physical health, and goals. It's a fight in our world to maintain balance. I think this is something to discuss with lots of open ended questions so they can examine their own thoughts. A lot of times we get caught in the flow and don't think about the why and how. In a culture that idolizes busyness these are conversations we need to have. (Im here in the thick of this for my own life)

[KungFuPanda]

54 minutes ago, Soror said:

IMHO just because it's normal doesn't make it good. We're all perpetually over scheduled.  I'd have conversations on priorities, needs, wants, mental- physical health, and goals. It's a fight in our world to maintain balance. I think this is something to discuss with lots of open ended questions so they can examine their own thoughts. A lot of times we get caught in the flow and don't think about the why and how. In a culture that idolizes busyness these are conversations we need to have. (Im here in the thick of this for my own life)

I didn’t think the schedule the OP posted looked crazy busy for a HS or college student. That’s when you have the luxury of focusing on your own interests and education and it’s an energetic pace he’ll need to keep up for college.  It’s not like he needs to juggle a marriage, children, career, and a home and garden in addition to these activities. I don’t think anyone is paying for college and expecting to have 3 or 4 empty calendar days per week.  For a teen, keeping busy can mean they’re not staring at their phones during that time so they’d come out ahead mental health wise. 

[wintermom]

@Drama Llama Thanks for itemizing the schedule and sharing. It helps to see the timing. I think it's worth discussing the work load this kind of schedule will mean for him in terms of energy and getting all the unscheduled things accomplished, such as homework assignments and studying. Not sure the expectation for music practice is - which depending on the level could be potentially quite high. Grade level in HS makes a big difference in our school system. If this were a grade 9 or 10 student, the schedule would be a lot more doable than grade 11 or 12, where academics typically becomes more time consuming as well as higher stakes with college/university applications looming. Marks really matter in these years for students in my area.

There are so many factors that do into the process of creating a schedule for youth. Trying to find just the right balance is a learning experience, and worth taking the time to discuss. Mental health is another factor to consider. If this individual has some anxiety and struggles with stress, then helping them create a schedule that will promote success will be really valuable. Quitting activities can be pretty traumatic as well. It's not necessarily going to be easy to let something go, especially if it's involuntary. That could create resentment. With our teens and young adults, we've tried to support them in the activities they've wanted to keep, potentially looking at different levels of activities that may not be as intensive and time consuming. For example, we're streamlining our son's guitar this year to a bi-monthly ensemble and no private lesson. It will mean much less practice and lesson time required each week, but he will still have opportunities to play guitar with friends and have a reason to practice.

All the best going forward! 

[catz]

Is he keeping up on school work? Is he happy and energetic or tired and stressed?   We always managed time better here with fuller schedules but I took my lead from my kid.  

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I didn’t think the schedule the OP posted looked crazy busy for a HS or college student. That’s when you have the luxury of focusing on your own interests and education and it’s an energetic pace he’ll need to keep up for college.  It’s not like he needs to juggle a marriage, children, career, and a home and garden in addition to these activities. I don’t think anyone is paying for college and expecting to have 3 or 4 empty calendar days per week.  For a teen, keeping busy can mean they’re not staring at their phones during that time so they’d come out ahead mental health wise. 

Yes, this.

[SKL]

I also think the posted schedule is fine as long as the kid feels fine, and homework is getting done.

I'm impressed that you can be that consistent about bedtimes.  🙂  I gave up on that a long time ago.

[fairfarmhand]

So out of 5 school days, he has 2 that are open evenings (other than HW and music) and he has Saturday and Sunday evening open (hanging with family is a good way to refresh oneself, so I don't know that I'd count that as an obligation) I think that's pretty good.  Especially if he's getting stuff done at a quality he can be proud of and feel good about. 

I couldn't live at that pace, but I'm a person who loves my downtime where I can piddle around. I know lots of other people though who would enjoy that pace. 

[katilac]

 I wouldn't assume it's too much. It might be, but I know plenty of teens and young adults who thrive on schedules busier than that, some of them with a lot of the hours being work versus fun. 

If his mid-quarter grades aren't up to par, he can re-assess (which might just mean scheduling differently, not necessarily dropping something). 

Early high school is a great time to learn about prioritizing, organizing, and your own limits. 

[Not_a_Number]

Looks pretty reasonable to me. 

In general, I think a high school student's schedule would need to look pretty dire for me to get seriously involved. High school is a great time to practice time management and to make some mistakes if need be. 

[Soror]

22 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I didn’t think the schedule the OP posted looked crazy busy for a HS or college student. That’s when you have the luxury of focusing on your own interests and education and it’s an energetic pace he’ll need to keep up for college.  It’s not like he needs to juggle a marriage, children, career, and a home and garden in addition to these activities. I don’t think anyone is paying for college and expecting to have 3 or 4 empty calendar days per week.  For a teen, keeping busy can mean they’re not staring at their phones during that time so they’d come out ahead mental health wise. 

I agree teens have less obligations and more time for fun things. However,  I think his mom has a better idea of too much for her kid than random moms and it's also the perfect time to practice balance and making sure you are spending your time on your priorities. Life only gets harder with more to balance, more is not always better. Also, having a kid with PTSD (which I'm just venturing a guess that op's kid might struggle with) there is a fine line between too much time to dwell on things and enough time to process feelings. What is not that bad for one person is crushing to another. The line for too much shouldn't be when every minute is scheduled. 

[Meriwether]

My Ds16 just quit his job. He is sad to be done and they will miss him, but he was just too busy. His schedule before he quit, TKD times listed include driving time:

15 DE college credits, several of which are difficult for him

Monday: TKD 5:45-9:00

Tuesday: TKD 4:45-8:30

Wednesday: CFA (work) 8:00-2:00; TKD 3:45-5:45; AWANA volunteer (in. another town, so leaving at 6:00) 6:30-8:00; youth group 8:15-9:45 (but stays after for informal pick up sports so gets home at 11:00)

Thursday: TKD 3:45-9:00

Saturday, when home: TKD 9:30-12:45; CFA 2:00-10:00.

Sunday: church 9:00-12:30

Tournament weekends: Usually involves driving on Friday and competing/judging on Saturday then driving home. This weekend he'll be riding with another family to St. Louis (8 hour drive) and coaching team sparring on Friday evening. He'll report for black belt meeting at 7:30 Saturday morning, judge when not in a ring, and compete when his ring is called. I'll get there at some point (long story). When everyone is done competing sometime between 4:00 and 6:00 in the afternoon, we'll drive the 8 hours home. Next weekend is a repeat going to Chicago except our family will be traveling together and my husband will do most of the driving. Two days after that, Dh and Ds16 will fly to Brazil to compete with Team USA at the PanAm games. They will be gone for 8 days. Three days after they get home there is another tournament in Sioux Falls. Two weeks after that, a big tournament in Pittsburgh and two weeks after that a tournament in Kansas City.  And he'll need to keep up with his college classes through all of that. 

TKD is a mixture of training/teaching/front desk work. The owner wants him there more often, but we couldn't make that work with college classes and work. We decided to have him give his two week notice at his other job.

*He usually does choir, but it conflicted with an online class. Hopefully he can do that next semester.

**He is also spending flex hours at TKD as he has time. The owner asked him to write a sparring curriculum for his schools.

He basically had Friday evenings and Sunday afternoons free if there wasn't a tournament and if his college work was all finished. Now he'll have Saturday too sometimes. Not often, but sometimes. Lol He'll be more likely to get Sundays free since he will have Wednesday mornings to work on college classes.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Meriwether

[teachermom2834]

My dd is a joiner so we run into this. But I tend to err on the side of letting her try. More often than not things work out. What has been the worst of it is when two activities collide at their apex (last year the mock trial competition was the week before tech week for the musical and it was exam time wrapping up 3rd quarter). But that is a brief snapshot in time of a couple hard weeks. She isn’t willing to forgo the activities for the rest of the year to avoid the crazy two weeks. 
 

I think often the kids who want to join everything are the exact kids who can handle it and even thrive on it. My dd is as are her friends who do the same. My dd also goes to a small school so to make these activities go they have to share kids. Lots of kids in marching band also play a fall sport, for example, and I know that wouldn’t fly at bigger schools with more kids to draw from. But at dd’s school the coaches for these activities know they have to give the kids at least a little slack if they are going to field their own numbers. So there is a little grace.

Also, and this is family specific, my dd is a 4.0 student so far but if she takes a B at some point because she got busy with an ec and bombed a test we can live with that. We want more for her than academics and these other activities provide balance. But I know kids shooting for competitive colleges have more pressure there.

My dd has cooked up a scenario (fall play/mock trial/robotics/rock climbing) that I really think doesn’t work in terms of being in multiple places at the same time all the time vs. just occasional conflicts. I did tell her to figure out how it was going to work and explain it to me and if she could I was all in. She hasn’t gotten back to me on that yet.