Cultural Appropriation

[Drama Llama]

The process of picking songs for  the swim team lip sync battle has led to discussions of cultural appropriation in my house. 

I am not particularly concerned about it in this context, but I do think it’s something helpful to understand for my older kid, who hopes to go to music school to study jazz.

What are your thoughts?

I am at work so I will come back with more thoughts when I am not.

[Arcadia]

6 minutes ago, BandH said:

I am not particularly concerned about it in this context, but I do think it’s something helpful to understand for my older kid, who hopes to go to music school to study jazz.

There are asian Indians children who loves traditional chinese dance and they are good enough to win in competitions. Similar for chinese who loves traditional asian Indian dances. Lots of asians take the ABRSM music exams and the exam pieces are majority classical music. A few chinese friends dance ballet for stage performances. Nobody thinks it is cultural appropriation. Similarly, lots of people who are not Japanese takes the Japanese classes at community colleges (my kids included) and nobody thinks its cultural appropriation.

[EKS]

Ideas that sow division among people seem to be all the rage these days.  

[regentrude]

Tricky issue. All cultural melding includes appropriation of the heritage of another culture. The (may I say it: politically charged) label is given when there is a power differential, i.e. the powerful culture incorporates that of the oppressed. So by that definition,  Japanese singing western classical music is *not* considered cultural appropriation, but a white English person performing Indian classical music would be. Strictly speaking that would make any form of jazz (and blues, and spirituals...) performed by white folks Cultural appropriation. But the world would be much poorer if that melding didn't happen. I feel the judging has gone too far. One can, and should, strive to be respectful of another culture, but borrowing has always happened and has enriched the arts, and the cuisine.

ETA: It can also be viewed as a sign of appreciation and respect towards the other culture to explore their food or dress, or perform art that incorporates elements of that culture. There are for example beautiful recordings of white singers performing spirituals, with sincerity and feeling and respect, which brings this music to other audiences and introduces more people to this heritage. To me, this is a beautiful thing. (To others, it is construed as shameful exploitation. It's a battlefront in a culture war).

2nd ETA: It can quickly become ridiculous. Strictly speaking,  people of European descent doing yoga would qualify as C.A. What purpose would that serve?

Edited July 11, 2023 by regentrude

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, this was something I wrestled with as a white kid who loved Jazz. It was largely my Black teachers that convinced me that, yes, it was OK for me to love it, to explore it, and to perform it, but that in the process, I needed to learn the history and culture behind it (including my sax instructor who asked me what church I went to, and then told me that I was joining the choir at the traditionally Black church of the same denomination-so for several years, I attended two churches and sang in two choirs-one at the first service, one at the second)-because I needed to understand how Jazz came out of the Black church and the only way to do that was to be part of it.  I also got stacks of CDs every week to listen to and explore, not just Jazz, but all the related genres. 

 

They were also very clear to me that as a white woman playing sax, I'd be facing an uphill battle to be accepted in the Jazz world, because traditionally, not only was it a Black world, but it was a men's world except for vocalists, but that the Blues and Jazz were music of struggle, and if I wanted to make it MY struggle, that wouldn't take away from those who went before. 

 

My high point came when, in an adjudicated competition, Ellis Marsalis called me out, gave me a long list of things to fix, and then commented "You know, girl, you've got it. Keep it up". 

 

In my case, performance just wasn't an option for physiological reasons.  But that background has been amazing in my teaching career. 

[Farrar]

My feeling is that it's a real issue that we should all be alert to and sensitive to. But also, that it's an issue that's used to sow discord and can get really overblown. Culture is not a pure thing and has always and will always be changing and evolving based on influences from other cultures.

I think the biggest thing is to be aware and gracious about the history and roots of the art you're practicing, especially when there's a history of exploitation in that art.

[Carrie12345]

I feel like more details are needed. Lip syncing doesn’t set off any alarms in my head in general, but how it’s done could be debatable.

Channing Tatum doing Beyoncé didn’t feel like appropriation to me. Gwen Stefani in her weird black/Asian phase did. Again, to me. (Not that she was lip syncing, but ykwim.)

[Grace Hopper]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

My feeling is that it's a real issue that we should all be alert to and sensitive to. But also, that it's an issue that's used to sow discord and can get really overblown. Culture is not a pure thing and has always and will always be changing and evolving based on influences from other cultures.

I think the biggest thing is to be aware and gracious about the history and roots of the art you're practicing, especially when there's a history of exploitation in that art.

Agree

@Dmmetler thanks for sharing your experience, can’t wait to share that with my in house jazz musician. 
 

Side question - what about white American women with nose piercings? This is a conversation we’ve mused over at home. 

[Carrie12345]

19 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

Side question - what about white American women with nose piercings? This is a conversation we’ve mused over at home. 

Uh oh. I think I know more white women with nose piercings than without. I’ve never thought about it beyond not wanting to call more attention to my own unfortunate nose.

[marbel]

26 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

Side question - what about white American women with nose piercings? This is a conversation we’ve mused over at home

This brings up another question:  if nose piercing may be cultural appropriation, would ear piercing (originated in Egypt, I *think*) be as well?  

I've actually never given it a thought either. I have pierced ears but don't have the right style in general to pull off a nose piercing. 

 

[Farrar]

The nose piercing is one of those things. Like... who "owns" it? Definitely indigenous to the Indian subcontinent, but it spread from there to the Middle East and was apparently not uncommon among a number of pre-Christian/Muslim groups. Some of those inevitably are groups Europeans have a cultural ancestry with. Not to mention we're talking about a dissemination of culture that's thousands of years old. Plus, it was common among various indigenous American groups and some African groups. Who decides who can and can't?

Same thing for hair. Or fabrics. I mean... some of these things weren't culturally "pure" historically so making it that way now is folly.

But also, it's good to have awareness that someone who is outwardly presenting as indigenous, with visible markers of that gets discriminated against for a nose piercing while a white person with a bunch of money can don one for the pleasure of it while living off a trust fund or a parent.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Farrar
good grief, i can grammar, i swear

[wintermom]

There could well be a simple solution for this lip sync thing, have the performer give a brief introductin to their song by saying the name and source (song writer/traditional source) of the music, and why they chose it. This is often how performers introduce a song in a concert, and I love it. I've seen more classical guitarists do this than a solo violinists, for example, but many pop artists do this. It is a nice way to acknowledge the songs' origins, and it encourages the individual to own the reason behind their performance. If they're going to do something really disrespectful, "silly" or "stupid," then they better be ready to take ownership. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by wintermom

[Farrar]

Though... If the lip sync issue involves the N-word, I'm going to just stop you right there...

[SKL]

Everyone I know whose culture has been "appropriated" has said they love this.

People of other cultures who are in the business of selling music love that people in other cultures consume their music.

I've never met anyone IRL who cares about this.  I tend to agree it's a manufactured issue in many if not most contexts.  As long as the person borrowing is not exploiting to the point of taking away the originator's earning ability, and as long as credit is given as due, and copyright laws are respected, and unless the artist has said s/he doesn't want people using their work in this way, I don't think there's a problem.

I do think it's a good idea to research the copyright laws if you're planning to video and post the contest anywhere, or to use this for a public performance.  Regardless of the artist's culture, there are limits on using music copyrighted by someone else.

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Though... If the lip sync issue involves the N-word, I'm going to just stop you right there...

Oh goodness no.

I don't have concerns about the lip sync.   It's just what started the conversation.   DS12 and two of his friends have decided that they want to perform Old Town Road by Lil Nas X and Billy Ray Cyrus, and a neighborhood event.  It happens that the kid who wants to be Lil Nas is white, and the kid who wants to be Billy Ray is African American.  My kid is planning to be dance captain and wrangle up a group of little kids and teach them to be back up dancers.  

He went to a summer class he's taking, and another kid saw him watching a youtube and practicing the dance, and told him that it was cultural appropriation.  So, he came home and we talked about it, and decided we were comfortable.

But it just made me think about the issue.  Because as @Dmmetler says, it's a complex issue for my other kid, the musician.  And if DS12 ever decides to cook professionally, it will be an issue for him to think about too.  

My thinking is kind of muddled on this, but I think to me there are a few questions that help me think coherently.  

1) What is the relationship between the two cultures involved?  I do think there's a difference between someone from a culture that has dominated or colonized or abused another group, appropriating something from that group and the opposite.  So, a white dancer doing African dance is difference from Misty Copeland.  

2) Who profits or gains and is at whose expense?  If my white kid sings his baby cousin to sleep with a Nat King Cole song?  That's fine.  If he sings it at memory care where he goes to perform for his great great aunt and her friends?  That's lovely.  If he sings it as an audition where he's competing for something? Maybe not.  If he gets cast as Nat King Cole in a blockbuster movie?  That's 100% no.  

3) Is it being done in a way that shows respect for the origin and context of the original work of art? 

4) Does it touch on something that's sacred, or has specific significance?  I grew up in an era where we would read sacred stories from other cultures, particular Native American ones, and then "write our own".  That's 100% no.

 

[Sneezyone]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:42 PM, BandH said:

Oh goodness no.

I don't have concerns about the lip sync.   It's just what started the conversation.   DS12 and two of his friends have decided that they want to perform Old Town Road by Lil Nas X and Billy Ray Cyrus, and a neighborhood event.  It happens that the kid who wants to be Lil Nas is white, and the kid who wants to be Billy Ray is African American.  My kid is planning to be dance captain and wrangle up a group of little kids and teach them to be back up dancers.  

He went to a summer class he's taking, and another kid saw him watching a youtube and practicing the dance, and told him that it was cultural appropriation.  So, he came home and we talked about it, and decided we were comfortable.

But it just made me think about the issue.  Because as @Dmmetler says, it's a complex issue for my other kid, the musician.  And if DS12 ever decides to cook professionally, it will be an issue for him to think about too.  

My thinking is kind of muddled on this, but I think to me there are a few questions that help me think coherently.  

1) What is the relationship between the two cultures involved?  I do think there's a difference between someone from a culture that has dominated or colonized or abused another group, appropriating something from that group and the opposite.  So, a white dancer doing African dance is difference from Misty Copeland.  

2) Who profits or gains and is at whose expense?  If my white kid sings his baby cousin to sleep with a Nat King Cole song?  That's fine.  If he sings it at memory care where he goes to perform for his great great aunt and her friends?  That's lovely.  If he sings it as an audition where he's competing for something? Maybe not.  If he gets cast as Nat King Cole in a blockbuster movie?  That's 100% no.  

3) Is it being done in a way that shows respect for the origin and context of the original work of art? 

4) Does it touch on something that's sacred, or has specific significance?  I grew up in an era where we would read sacred stories from other cultures, particular Native American ones, and then "write our own".  That's 100% no.

 

What I've observed is that, like @dmmetler described, those who live with and/or embrace both the culture and people who develop the music and participate with them in making it, are more welcomed. Those who don't, are less so. Watching a suburban kid with no struggle sing a Billie Holiday tune is PAINFUL. It has nothing to do with the notes and everything to do with the lack of emotion and sentiment. Just leaving this here as an example. The poor kid can barely enunciate the words! 

vs.

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Farrar]

Given that Lil Nas X let straight, white Jack Harlow rap in Industry Baby, I feel like it's safe to say he's cool with basic white kids rapping, lol. I mean, I know that's not the point of the conversation, but I'm still submitting it into evidence.

[Sneezyone]

35 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Given that Lil Nas X let straight, white Jack Harlow rap in Industry Baby, I feel like it's safe to say he's cool with basic white kids rapping, lol. I mean, I know that's not the point of the conversation, but I'm still submitting it into evidence.

My neighborhood included plenty of 'white chocolate' folks. It was all good. I know we hail from the same region tho and the interplay between musicians in the region is well-known.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Carrie12345]

12 hours ago, BandH said:

Oh goodness no.

I don't have concerns about the lip sync.   It's just what started the conversation.   DS12 and two of his friends have decided that they want to perform Old Town Road by Lil Nas X and Billy Ray Cyrus, and a neighborhood event.  It happens that the kid who wants to be Lil Nas is white, and the kid who wants to be Billy Ray is African American.  My kid is planning to be dance captain and wrangle up a group of little kids and teach them to be back up dancers.  

He went to a summer class he's taking, and another kid saw him watching a youtube and practicing the dance, and told him that it was cultural appropriation.  So, he came home and we talked about it, and decided we were comfortable.

But it just made me think about the issue.  Because as @Dmmetler says, it's a complex issue for my other kid, the musician.  And if DS12 ever decides to cook professionally, it will be an issue for him to think about too.  

My thinking is kind of muddled on this, but I think to me there are a few questions that help me think coherently.  

1) What is the relationship between the two cultures involved?  I do think there's a difference between someone from a culture that has dominated or colonized or abused another group, appropriating something from that group and the opposite.  So, a white dancer doing African dance is difference from Misty Copeland.  

2) Who profits or gains and is at whose expense?  If my white kid sings his baby cousin to sleep with a Nat King Cole song?  That's fine.  If he sings it at memory care where he goes to perform for his great great aunt and her friends?  That's lovely.  If he sings it as an audition where he's competing for something? Maybe not.  If he gets cast as Nat King Cole in a blockbuster movie?  That's 100% no.  

3) Is it being done in a way that shows respect for the origin and context of the original work of art? 

4) Does it touch on something that's sacred, or has specific significance?  I grew up in an era where we would read sacred stories from other cultures, particular Native American ones, and then "write our own".  That's 100% no.

 

Oh, that other kid is nuts. I think it’s a pretty cool lip sync idea!

Context and intent go a long way. Not ALWAYS, but often.

15 hours ago, Farrar said:

Though... If the lip sync issue involves the N-word, I'm going to just stop you right there...

The protocol for lip syncs appears to be covering one’s mouth when that word plays. Not that I’m an expert, but I’m realizing I watch more Lip Sync Battle and TikTok than I thought!

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

The protocol for lip syncs appears to be covering one’s mouth when that word plays. Not that I’m an expert, but I’m realizing I watch more Lip Sync Battle and TikTok than I thought!

I think at 12, performing for a neighborhood event with little kids, the protocol needs to be “pick a different song”.

 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, BandH said:

I think at 12, performing for a neighborhood event with little kids, the protocol needs to be “pick a different song”.

 

Well, yeah, that’s a good rule for 12yos! Lol. I was noodling in broader terms!

[Not_a_Number]

I saw the cultural appropriation issue sow a ton of discord in some babywearing communities I was part of. It was painful to watch… the “true believers” would have a very holier than thou attitude and be contemptuous and dismissive of other perspectives.

Personally, I think I align well with other people on this forum. It’s very hard to draw a line between appropriation and appreciation, and I feel like anything done respectfully is just fine.

[katilac]

17 hours ago, BandH said:

I think at 12, performing for a neighborhood event with little kids, the protocol needs to be “pick a different song”.

Not related to cultural appropriation, but you have to ignore some of the lyrics to consider Old Town Road a kid-friendly song. 

[Drama Llama]

6 hours ago, katilac said:

Not related to cultural appropriation, but you have to ignore some of the lyrics to consider Old Town Road a kid-friendly song. 

It well within what I was comfortable with my kids listening to when they were little. It’s got one reference to drugs that I think many kids would miss* and one reference to cheating which isn’t glorified or graphic.  

It might lead to a conversation about cheating or drugs but that’s a good thing.

*Someone reassure me that I am not the only one who thought Lil Nas X was leaning on his bladder and having to pee, before we pulled up the actual lyrics to practice lip sync.
 

 

[Terabith]

Wait, it’s not???  I pulled up the lyrics and it does say something about leaning on his bladder.  

54 minutes ago, BandH said:

*Someone reassure me that I am not the only one who thought Lil Nas X was leaning on his bladder and having to pee, before we pulled up the actual lyrics to practice lip sync.
 

 

 

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Wait, it’s not???  I pulled up the lyrics and it does say something about leaning on his bladder.  

 

I was so happy to see my post childbirth/perimenopausal symptom of needing to pee when the ride is bumpy reflected in art, but it turns out that it refers to the Lean (aka Purple Drank) that is all IN his bladder.

But there is no way my 2 year old nephew is absorbing that message while he is line dancing.  He will probably just be impressed that Lil Nas is a big boy who keeps things in his bladder and doesn’t need a diaper.  

[vonfirmath]

1 minute ago, BandH said:

I was so happy to see my post childbirth/perimenopausal symptom of needing to pee when the ride is bumpy reflected in art, but it turns out that it refers to the Lean (aka Purple Drank) that is all IN his bladder.

But there is no way my 2 year old nephew is absorbing that message while he is line dancing.  He will probably just be impressed that Lil Nas is a big boy who keeps things in his bladder and doesn’t need a diaper.  

*laugh*

 

Note: Having it explained makes NO sense to me. I don't know what Lean is or Purple Drank. A full bladder needing to pee I do know

Edited July 13, 2023 by vonfirmath

[KungFuPanda]

I think it's an important and interesting conversation to have with kids.  They shouldn't be afraid to try any artform, but they should be prepared to educate themselves when they dive into a culture that isn't their own.  I think Old Town Road is actually a great song to discuss and is an example of how to be an ally.  If you don't know the history of the song, here is one article about it. You can learn a lot if you dive into the history of the song being removed from the charts and dissecting the lyrics. It's a good exercise about getting into the habit of doing your due diligence.

A lot of us grew up without even the idea that we had a responsibility to make this effort.  Times change and all, but there are middle-aged adults running around refusing to update their outlook on life.  I do think being so afraid of causing offense that you don't learn something new is as problematic as saying that cultural appropriation isn't a real thing that anyone should worry about.  You just have to do your best and not be a jerk.

 

ETA:  It's "lean all in my bladder."  Have fun exploring that one. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by KungFuPanda

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think it's an important and interesting conversation to have with kids.  They shouldn't be afraid to try any artform, but they should be prepared to educate themselves when they dive into a culture that isn't their own.  I think Old Town Road is actually a great song to discuss and is an example of how to be an ally.  If you don't know the history of the song, here is one article about it. You can learn a lot if you dive into the history of the song being removed from the charts and dissecting the lyrics. It's a good exercise about getting into the habit of doing your due diligence.

A lot of us grew up without even the idea that we had a responsibility to make this effort.  Times change and all, but there are middle-aged adults running around refusing to update their outlook on life.  I do think being so afraid of causing offense that you don't learn something new is as problematic as saying that cultural appropriation isn't a real thing that anyone should worry about.  You just have to do your best and not be a jerk.

I actually think it's a great song for this particular group of kids, because of the back story.  And I agree it's an important conversation to have, which is why I thought I'd ask here.

One thing that my kids found interesting was that the kid who accused DS of cultural appropriation is white, and seems to have just assumed, without asking, that the entire group performing with my kid would be white.  

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

ETA:  It's "lean all in my bladder."  Have fun exploring that one. 

I know what lean is.  I just think my middle aged brain went from tractor to bumpy to having to pee, and substituted "leaning on my bladder".  

[Slache]

I haven't read other replies, but it was explained to me that cultural appropriation is when you take something sacred and mock it, like using a Jewish festival as the theme for a frat party.

From our angle, how offended would you be if a non American had an American BBQ? How offended would you be if a non Christian used the image of Christ in an inappropriate way? Very clear difference. 

I think the actual definition now reflects both the BBQ and the image, but I wouldn't care about the music. It's just not offensive. 

[livetoread]

7 minutes ago, Slache said:

I haven't read other replies, but it was explained to me that cultural appropriation is when you take something sacred and mock it, like using a Jewish festival as the theme for a frat party.

From our angle, how offended would you be if a non American had an American BBQ? How offended would you be if a non Christian used the image of Christ in an inappropriate way? Very clear difference. 

I think the actual definition now reflects both the BBQ and the image, but I wouldn't care about the music. It's just not offensive. 

For me, it doesn't have to mock to still be cultural appropriation. I think indifference can count. When you are indifferent to the history of the art you are taking, you are likely to perpetuate the problems of dominate cultures taking things and claiming them as their own while downplaying the role of non-dominate cultures. Then you end up with people still not valuing the non-dominate cultures because what did they ever contribute, anyway? (Among other problems.)

I also don't think it has to be sacred, though that might give the clearest examples that religious people can identify with.

[Kidlit]

This is an interesting conversation, and I have a very sincere question.  I have tried to research it a little, and my very minimal research tells me one thing, but I want to put it to the Hive.  One of my book clubs is for the BFG, and I am looking at a related craft.  Would it be inappropriate cultural appropriation if we make a dreamcatcher and talk about how the Lakota (?) have this belief and practice, using the BFG as a jumping off point? (Kind of as a crafty-aside--not the point of the club at all.). 
 

My research tells me it's okay as long as you don't profit from it or do it disrespectfully. 
 

I am here to learn. 

[BeachGal]

14 minutes ago, Kidlit said:

This is an interesting conversation, and I have a very sincere question.  I have tried to research it a little, and my very minimal research tells me one thing, but I want to put it to the Hive.  One of my book clubs is for the BFG, and I am looking at a related craft.  Would it be inappropriate cultural appropriation if we make a dreamcatcher and talk about how the Lakota (?) have this belief and practice, using the BFG as a jumping off point? (Kind of as a crafty-aside--not the point of the club at all.). 
 

My research tells me it's okay as long as you don't profit from it or do it disrespectfully. 
 

I am here to learn. 

I am part Lakota and grew up on a reservation where both sides of my family lived for several generations. My NA side came from South Dakota. (It's not just Native Americans who live on reservations, btw. Some of them are very large.) People have co-mingled for generations working through differences and problems eventually finding common ground, respect, admiration and appreciation for the other.

Anyway, no, I would not see it as cultural appropriation at all to make a dreamcatcher. Who knows nowadays, though? Someone might take issue with it.

[knitgrl]

When I was a good deal younger, I was absolutely fascinated with India. As an early 20-something in the mid-90's, I stopped by an Indian shop to have a look at coverlets and statues and things. The proprietor really, really, really wanted me to buy some henna to decorate my hands. I politely declined because I kind of felt like that would be appropriation, because I am not Indian. I now see it periodically on early 20-somethings who are clearly not Indian. 🤷‍♀️

 

[vonfirmath]

32 minutes ago, knitgrl said:

When I was a good deal younger, I was absolutely fascinated with India. As an early 20-something in the mid-90's, I stopped by an Indian shop to have a look at coverlets and statues and things. The proprietor really, really, really wanted me to buy some henna to decorate my hands. I politely declined because I kind of felt like that would be appropriation, because I am not Indian. I now see it periodically on early 20-somethings who are clearly not Indian. 🤷‍♀️

 

My sister got her first henna while visiting the middle east. Her friend there had her get together with other ladies (local) and they did henna together. So henna is not just an Indian thing.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by vonfirmath

[TechWife]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:22 PM, EKS said:

Ideas that sow division among people seem to be all the rage these days.  

I think that the mere existence of different ideas seems to be what is erroneously sowing division. We no longer “agree to disagree.” It has progressed beyond being unable to distinguish fact/information from fiction/lies. Society is increasingly more unable to recognize the difference between facts/information and opinion. The end result of that is the policing of opinions and preferences because they are either “right” or “wrong,” and not just “different.” 

[TechWife]

I think in one way or another all of music is culturally appropriated. Maybe you’re overthinking this? Having something appear “out of context” in a lip syncing contest can be part of the fun. 

[knitgrl]

12 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I think in one way or another all of music is culturally appropriated. Maybe you’re overthinking this? Having something appear “out of context” in a lip syncing contest can be part of the fun. 

Yes, but the prerequisite is a sense of humor.

[TechWife]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:42 PM, BandH said:

…He went to a summer class he's taking, and another kid saw him watching a youtube and practicing the dance, and told him that it was cultural appropriation…

 

I think the core of this may be that the other kid isn’t familiar with the arts as disciplines. All unique ideas have their genesis in an existing inspiration. That’s why we have sheet music - musicians wanted to be able to play or song what others were doing. We have different dance styles with named moves because dancers copied each other. Whether or not a musician or dancer is formally trained, they take older ideas and evolve them into something unique. That doesn’t mean the original ceases to exist or loses importance. For example, modern dance hasn’t eclipsed classical ballet. Popularity does wax & wane depending on a variety of factors, but they are both respected & recognized dance styles. 

[Jaybee]

In my experiences of living in other countries, some of which were very different from my own, people seemed excited and happy when we wore their style of clothing, ate their foods, sang their songs, and practiced their customs. That we liked and appreciated them meant a lot to the people we were around. Granted, because we were doing it in their setting, it was easier to integrate those things into our lives. When/if we didn't, it seemed to come across more like we thought we were too good for their stuff, or like we thought they were weird or something, or just that we preferred our own things. 

Like I said, we were in their setting. But when we have had some from that culture visit us, they seem to like it that we have some of the handcrafts from there decorating our home, etc. I guess so much of it is in the attitude and the appreciation.🤷‍♀️ 

[EKS]

11 hours ago, TechWife said:

I think that the mere existence of different ideas seems to be what is erroneously sowing division. We no longer “agree to disagree.” It has progressed beyond being unable to distinguish fact/information from fiction/lies. Society is increasingly more unable to recognize the difference between facts/information and opinion. The end result of that is the policing of opinions and preferences because they are either “right” or “wrong,” and not just “different.” 

When one side keeps screaming that if a person doesn't buy into its made up version of reality then that person is some sort of "-ist"  or "-phobe"--that is one thing I mean by sowing division.

Edited July 15, 2023 by EKS

[wathe]

4 hours ago, Kidlit said:

This is an interesting conversation, and I have a very sincere question.  I have tried to research it a little, and my very minimal research tells me one thing, but I want to put it to the Hive.  One of my book clubs is for the BFG, and I am looking at a related craft.  Would it be inappropriate cultural appropriation if we make a dreamcatcher and talk about how the Lakota (?) have this belief and practice, using the BFG as a jumping off point? (Kind of as a crafty-aside--not the point of the club at all.). 
 

My research tells me it's okay as long as you don't profit from it or do it disrespectfully. 
 

I am here to learn. 

I would tread carefully with this.     Literary discussion comparing/contrasting BFG dream catching to a group's cultural/spiritual practice feels fine to me.  But turning a spiritual practice into kid's craft/crafty aside does not.  

Edited July 14, 2023 by wathe

[Farrar]

Yeah, I would just tread carefully with any crafts and indigenous Americans period. I've seen too many indigenous people basically say it's a no go because so much of even everyday use items are tied up with spiritual traditions and because there's such a long term history of exploitation and sales of kitchy plastic knockoff items of sacred objects as toys for kids. 

[Drama Llama]

6 hours ago, knitgrl said:

When I was a good deal younger, I was absolutely fascinated with India. As an early 20-something in the mid-90's, I stopped by an Indian shop to have a look at coverlets and statues and things. The proprietor really, really, really wanted me to buy some henna to decorate my hands. I politely declined because I kind of felt like that would be appropriation, because I am not Indian. I now see it periodically on early 20-somethings who are clearly not Indian. 🤷‍♀️

 

I think that when someone who is a part of a culture invites you to participate alongside them, that’s always fine.  

It’s kind of like how if I, a Christian, get invited as a guest to a Jewish friend’s Seder, then that’s 100% fine. When we were in lockdown during Covid and sharing a bubble with my Jewish BIL and his kids and we prepared Seder with him?  That was fine.  In both of those cases,  even though the tradition is sacred, the fact that I was being invited to participate makes a difference.

Now, if I host my own Seder?  That’s cultural appropriation, and if I changed things up and made it my own “Christian Seder”?  That would be worse.

I don’t know enough about henna to have an opinion about buying some and doing it myself.  But if you are invited?  I would feel comfortable saying yes if I wanted to. 

 

 

[marbel]

23 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yeah, I would just tread carefully with any crafts and indigenous Americans period. I've seen too many indigenous people basically say it's a no go because so much of even everyday use items are tied up with spiritual traditions and because there's such a long term history of exploitation and sales of kitchy plastic knockoff items of sacred objects as toys for kids. 

I'm not arguing or disagreeing; this just leads to another question. If handled correctly, wouldn't this sort of thing be a good way to introduce the ideas that what may look like a toy to the audience is something altogether different to others, and teach something about the significance/meaning/why it's not a toy? Otherwise people will continue to be ignorant, right? I'm not saying anyone here is wagging their finger at people, because no one here is, but there often is finger-wagging but with no actual education to help people with understanding, you know? 

 

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, marbel said:

I'm not arguing or disagreeing; this just leads to another question. If handled correctly, wouldn't this sort of thing be a good way to introduce the ideas that what may look like a toy to the audience is something altogether different to others, and teach something about the significance/meaning/why it's not a toy? Otherwise people will continue to be ignorant, right? I'm not saying anyone here is wagging their finger at people, because no one here is, but there often is finger-wagging but with no actual education to help people with understanding, you know? 

 

I am not @Farrar but I agree that education is good.  But mixing that up with children’s crafts and fictional texts gets tricky.   
 

I think that talking about Native American beliefs and sacred objects in the context of a social studies class, or better yet if possible going to a museum or inviting in a speaker from that culture, is a better approach.

[BeachGal]

If you are concerned about making dreamcatchers, you could always contact leaders of tribes and ask what they think. They are people like anyone else and appreciate when people do ask.

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, wathe said:

I would tread carefully with this.     Literary discussion comparing/contrasting BFG dream catching to a group's cultural/spiritual practice feels fine to me.  But turning a spiritual practice into kid's craft/crafty aside does not.  

I don’t know enough about dreamcatchers to have an opinion, but I think that in general comparing people’s religious or spiritual beliefs to speculative fiction is a place to tread carefully.

As a teacher, I have traced the concept of a hero’s journey from stories that people once believed to Frozen.  But comparing Perseus to Anna feels a lot safer than comparing Moses, unless the latter is done with immense caution and respect.  Often the stories of indigenous people don’t get that respect in those comparisons and it feels like if someone told my most religious relatives that Professor McGonagall being lady and cat is like Jesus being human and God.

[Farrar]

17 minutes ago, marbel said:

I'm not arguing or disagreeing; this just leads to another question. If handled correctly, wouldn't this sort of thing be a good way to introduce the ideas that what may look like a toy to the audience is something altogether different to others, and teach something about the significance/meaning/why it's not a toy? Otherwise people will continue to be ignorant, right? I'm not saying anyone here is wagging their finger at people, because no one here is, but there often is finger-wagging but with no actual education to help people with understanding, you know? 

 

I agree in a sense. And I think when handled well, it's fine for the majority of situations and ethnicities. I mean, how do we teach young kids to appreciate other cultures and periods in history? We let them play dress up, make crafts, taste foods, tell stories and act them out... It's just that a number of these things have such fraught histories when it comes to indigenous Americans that I wouldn't personally touch it. It's like a special case. I'm kind of at the point that with this particular group, it cannot be done in a way that wouldn't be deeply criticized if gotten ahold of by a lot of people, so it's become a no for me.

[Kidlit]

Thanks for the insight, everyone.