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Edited November 24, 2023 by 000000000

[easypeasy]

As a fine arts connoisseur, I'd say if fine arts aren't "meaty" enough, it's because you're not doing it right. 😁🙃😄 (said with affection, I promise, lol)

With that said, I cannot imagine a single college raising a realistic eyebrow at a STEM-focused student not having much music, theater, or art on their transcript. Shoot, higher-tier universities often like their students "spiky" vs "well-rounded." But, a state school might red-flag it just because they are so accustomed to seeing the state reqs met by in-state students.

Therefore, if I were even a little bit concerned, I would imagine it would be fairly simple to put together another .5 credit course? Maybe a course in the science of music? Something like these below:

https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/departments/courses/2122S/MUSI/MUSI-108-2122S

https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-science-of-music.html

[Doodlebug]

Agree with the poster above.

Consider speech, which usually qualifies as a fine arts credit - focus on impromptu speaking, presentation content, delivery, and interview skills. Very practical and gets kids thinking about how to present themselves physically and socially.  We have a local speech club, too, which has been really enjoyable.

[freesia]

Could you round out the credit with music or art history? I do actually think it’s a good idea to include fine arts. It can be a brain break and stress release. I saw how many credits your dc does and I didn’t have time to comment then.  My high achieving kids couldn’t have done nine academic credits. The fine arts can give them a way to get out of themselves and appreciate beauty. Ok, sermon over. You can do what you want, of course, and your kid will be fine. Do check possible colleges, though, bc I’m pretty sure I have seen fine arts requirements. 

[ScoutTN]

Youth theater or drama classes in your community are also a great way to connect with other students and families. My Dd has made some amazing friends in theater and learned so much. Perhaps not “meaty” in an intellectual way, but plenty meaty as far as real life skills. 
 

I know people who have dovetailed film with lit classes. Shakespeare on Film, Cowboy Lit and Westerns, Films in 5 Genres, Movie Adaptations of Great Literature: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. A solid understanding of the techniques of film-making is excellent for anyone to have. Especially young adults launching into a chaotic world.

Art history is valuable to know as well. My Dd just got back from her first trip to Europe and was glad we’d done some of this  in our homeschool.

Music appreciation?! We started with Beethoven’s Wig  when my kids were little and moved on from there. Going to live performances of classical and choral music was fun and good learning for all of us. Then we broadened it as my kids got older. Ds did a year of the history of rock n roll as a middle schooler. 

Lots of mathy-STEM people have an artistic dimension to their abilities. My Dh is like this. Math/art/music brain! 

Edited June 22, 2023 by ScoutTN

[Farrar]

It's rare for homeschoolers to have to follow state graduation requirements so if you choose to follow this one, it's likely a choice.

Most colleges don't care that much about fine arts, but a few care a lot. The UC's for example have a credit in fine arts as a baseline requirement that you must do for consideration.

Not all courses have to be that meaty. It's actually good for students to have some easier courses.

[kirstenhill]

Even what counts to meet a "fine arts" requirement in public schools can vary drastically, so if you do chose to add something it could be a more STEM oriented "fine arts" like graphic design.  At the public school DS16 attends, a "global cuisines" cooking class counts toward the school's fine arts requirements for graduation, as does a "floral arts" course for flower arranging and presentation.  Neither the global cuisine or the floral arts course really screams "fine arts" to me, so I think there is definitely some leeway in what might be counted as such.  I was surprised by the poster above who suggested speech as a fine arts course, because it is counted toward English-related graduation requirements at DS16's school.   

[Clemsondana]

We've seen a couple of colleges (State Us, not SLACs) that list a credit of fine arts as part of the 'students who attend usually have taken' course list.  Most likely this is because many states require a credit to graduate.  For one of my kids, this will be easy since kid takes instrument lessons.  I was dreading it for my STEM kid, but it turned out to be pretty cool.  We did it by hours (our umbrella says 130 hours/credit).  Kid did a music theory class at co-op for 1/2 credit. This class was a hidden gem for this kid, who learned about all sorts of genres.  For the other 1/2 credit, kid did a hodgepodge of things.  Kid tried out the youth handbell choir at church and used a couple of books to learn the basics of drawing.  It turns out that kid is far better at drawing than music (funny since kid 2 and I both play instruments and perform in church a couple of times a year).  Kid also used a co-op ballroom class to finish out the credit hours.  It turns out that kid liked ballroom enough that, despite having mostly outgrown the academic classes at co-op, kid will go back to take ballroom for fun as a senior (and will volunteer for an hour and then eat lunch with friends).  This may remain a fun activity or kid is debating doing some more drawing and turning it into another 1/2 credit.  Never did I imagine that kid would contemplate doing extra fine arts!  So, I'd consider looking around for some things that are useful to know.  Drawing is useful for some science and engineering fields.  Ballroom dance can be used socially.  A cooking class would be practical.  The 'appreciation' classes can open your eyes to things that you never noticed before (and it mighbe be possible to take this DE and knock out a college requirements).  

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Edited November 24, 2023 by 000000000

[Clemsondana]

2 minutes ago, Petrova Fossil said:

 

@Clemsondana Mechanical drawing, maybe?

 

That would work.  We just bought a couple of books with titles like 'Learning how to draw' or 'Drawing with perspective' or that sort of thing.  Kid drew all sorts of things using the techniques.  Then kid started making an autobiographical cartoon.  It had simple stick people but the scenery was from different parts of kid's life - a move, a ball team, winning an competition, etc.  Unexpectedly, it was one of my favorite projects from kid's school years.  But, kid is now much better at making a sketch of something seen under a microscope, or the dimensions of a simple building project, or an easily interpreted rough map.

And, psychology is usually a social science, lumped with social studies, not science.    

[teachermom2834]

I was about to post that one of my sons got into our state flagship without a FA credit even though it is on the list of core courses they use to calculate their core GPA and it is a recommended (though not required) course. However, that school has gotten much more difficult to get into and I probably wouldn’t neglect it now. But you can do something light to meet the requirement. Sometimes the hoops are easy enough that it is worth it to just jump and this is possibly one of those. 

[ScoutTN]

I would not count Speech as an Arts credit. English or general elective instead. 

[Acorn]

Maybe a fine arts class of geometric art?

[teachermom2834]

5 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

I would not count Speech as an Arts credit. English or general elective instead. 

Unless you want to rename it Spoken Word or something. Mostly just kidding but really if you are home cooking courses there really is room for creativity especially outside the core classes.  But agreeing with you that I wouldn’t count speech as an arts credit unless it could be repackaged as a performance art. 
 

I’m obviously pretty open to creative ways of meeting this requirement rather than skipping it. 🙂

[ScoutTN]

I would just find ways to let him explore interests that can be classified as FA, keep track of hours, and call it good. 

[Arcadia]

10 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Lots of mathy-STEM people have an artistic dimension to their abilities. My Dh is like this. Math/art/music brain! 

 

4 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

The 'appreciation' classes can open your eyes to things that you never noticed before (and it mighbe be possible to take this DE and knock out a college requirements).  

Both my boys did Photography as DE to satisfy their state universities’ lower division fine arts requirements and their high school fine arts credit at the same time. DS18 did music theory as well. To me, photography is artistic physics and music theory is artistic maths 😉

Mechanical drawing can be classified as a career and technical education course or as part of a engineering computer graphics course.
My kid did public speaking and it was classified as a communications studies class under the English requirements of our state university. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Arcadia
clarification

[Doodlebug]

Just to zoom out here for a sec —  Whether we all agree on the speech/fine arts designation is irrelevant.  The fine arts options available to you as homeschool parent are those you can justify on a transcript given your state homeschool requirements and the university your kid will apply to.

In my school district, speech is designated as a fine art.  My state does not stipulate graduation requirements for homeschool students.  Zero of the schools my kid is applying to - even his two stem reach schools - emphasize a fine arts credit for admission.  However, I think fine arts make for a well rounded human being and applicant. These factors give me a lot of wiggle room to pursue courses, like speech, that benefit my student practically and I can justify as “fine arts” on a stem focused application.  I take those opportunities and run with them.   😉

Zooming back in - speech is not merely public speaking.  Our forensics club speech categories include platform, limited prep, and interpretive speech categories. Some very clearly fall under a dramatics umbrella.  Even seemingly less “dramatic” categories like platform can be dramatic depending on the speech.  Characterization and blocking were huge components of DS’s informative speech this year. 😉

Edited June 23, 2023 by Doodlebug

[Brittany1116]

The irony of not needing fine arts courses to enter college but being required to spend thousands on them once there. 

I flip flop between necessity and niceness of fine arts. I went to a fine arts elem/middle and appreciate them. But I think they are largely unnecessary in the college sphere for many if not most majors. I guess my short line philosophy is that majors are for majors, and anything else is icing. 

[Dmmetler]

If anyone wants a music theory/basic composition class as a self-paced thing, I'm teaching one this fall, and would be glad to let kids audit and work through the stuff in the Google classroom on their own.  Mathy kids sometimes really enjoy it-and it can be as heavy or light as you want unless you're planning to major in music, because NO one else takes it at the college level 🙂

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:01 AM, Brittany1116 said:

The irony of not needing fine arts courses to enter college but being required to spend thousands on them once there. 

 

This will vary greatly among colleges, like most discussions of college requirements. 

Son#1 - Took no fine arts courses. In college. 

Son#2 - Met his arts graduation requirement with a Screenwriting course. Many of his friends took Social Dancing for this requirement. 

Son#3 - Still in college, but eyeing Photography (his hobby), Wood Working, or Furniture Building if he takes a Fine Art. He might not need to. There are 4-5 categories of distribution credits, from which he needs to take 3 courses. 

But we haven't spent thousands on unnecessary courses. 

[Brittany1116]

41 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

This will vary greatly among colleges, like most discussions of college requirements. 

Son#1 - Took no fine arts courses. In college. 

Son#2 - Met his arts graduation requirement with a Screenwriting course. Many of his friends took Social Dancing for this requirement. 

Son#3 - Still in college, but eyeing Photography (his hobby), Wood Working, or Furniture Building if he takes a Fine Art. He might not need to. There are 4-5 categories of distribution credits, from which he needs to take 3 courses. 

But we haven't spent thousands on unnecessary courses. 

Thanks for sharing. I have yet to meet personally someone who didn't have to take one or more FA or PA courses in order to get their degree. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

2 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

Thanks for sharing. I have yet to meet personally someone who didn't have to take one or more FA or PA courses in order to get their degree. 

US universities typically have more general education requirements than universities in some other countries. But they also don't require every student to know what they want to study and apply directly to a specific program. 

At my alma mater, the only students required to take a PA or FA class are English majors, who typically take a course in Drama or Shakespeare. But then every student graduates with a BS and English majors also take Chemistry, Physics, and Calculus. 

There is a lot of variety out there in college requirements. 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Brittany1116 said:

Thanks for sharing. I have yet to meet personally someone who didn't have to take one or more FA or PA courses in order to get their degree. 

None of our engineering and science majors at my school are required to take a fine arts credit.
The gen ed requirement includes humanities which can be satisfied by English, Speech and Media Studies, foreign languages, philosophy, etymology - or fine arts if the student chooses, but that is not a requirement.

Edited June 24, 2023 by regentrude

[JennyD]

My son is a rising senior and I have been looking closely at distribution requirements at various colleges and universities.  So far I've only seen one school that actually requires students to take a class in the arts.   Much more common are humanities requirements, which can be satisfied with arts classes but certainly aren't limited to those.

 

[MagistraKennedy]

On 6/22/2023 at 4:06 PM, Acorn said:

Maybe a fine arts class of geometric art?

There's always architecture and design, too ...

[Acorn]

1 hour ago, MagistraKennedy said:

There's always architecture and design, too ...

My STEM high schoolers enjoy touring (or photos of) Frank Lloyd Wright houses.

[Roadrunner]

Visual and performing arts requirement is broadly defined usually. While I don’t think every kid must always play an instrument or paint or dance, I can’t imagine graduating a kid without basic knowledge of music/art history. 

[MJmom]

My sons high school gave him a fine arts credit for his Digital Media class. They learned photoshop and video editing. For a STEM kid who doesn’t like art,  I’d definitely do something with computers. 

[NorthernBeth]

On 6/25/2023 at 8:37 PM, MJmom said:

My sons high school gave him a fine arts credit for his Digital Media class. They learned photoshop and video editing. For a STEM kid who doesn’t like art,  I’d definitely do something with computers. 

Agree with this!  

[Lori D.]

On 6/21/2023 at 9:26 PM, Petrova Fossil said:

We are fine arts fumblers in this household. It is not a “meaty” enough subject for us, if you take my meaning.

TWTM hath spake that “fine arts electives aren’t necessary either for graduation or for the college track” (p. 747 in the 2016 edition).

My state’s graduation requirements are for one credit in “Fine Arts OR Career and Technical Education” (emphasis mine).

We are STEM oriented.

We already have 0.5 credit in Music from last year.

Does skipping a FA credit make a difference in college admissions?

You'll need to research the specific colleges you are interested in applying to in order to know if it will matter or not about skipping credits required for admission.

You already have 0.5 credit of Music, so it wouldn't be hard to do another 0.5 credit of some other Fine Arts. And, there are tons of things beyond the big 3 (art, music, theater) that count for Fine Arts. For example, one homeschooling family did blacksmithing (he created a couple of knives and candlestick holders).

Fine Arts is often creation or performance, but it can also be "appreciation". Several times at our homeschool co-op I've taught a high school Fine Arts: Film Appreciation class that is an intro to film analysis + overview of film history, where we read about/watch/discuss classic and contemporary films. Very enjoyable, and a great opportunity to learn how to view film (and TV) critically, rather than just mindlessly "consuming" by letting the visual media flow into your eyes without thinking about the underlying messages or themes or big ideas. 😉

Could you view this as an opportunity to explore and possibly stumble into something that could end up as a life-long enjoyable activity for DS?

Computer animation or digital arts are more STEM oriented. Or what about combining STEM skills/interests with fine arts and make it a semester-long project, like designing/engineering and building a music instrument, or creating sculptures with 3-D printing, or building a robot that paints, or...??

And if none of that appeals, then go for the CTE option to fill out 0.5 credit with career exploration.

BEST of luck, whatever you decide.

[Lori D.]

On 6/22/2023 at 11:48 AM, Petrova Fossil said:

I was surprised—didn’t know speech could count as a fine art (then again, I still have no idea whether psychology is a social science or a science subject, LOL). 

If speech is a (say) 0.5 credit course, is it a FA or English course? We have 2 English credits already this year so it could be diverted to FA? 

I have never seen Speech counted as Fine Arts. I have seen it only as either part of an English credit, or as an Elective. Just my experience.

 

And as my final 2 cents worth (lol), I agree with several of the posters up-thread that exposure to and appreciation of the Fine Arts provides cultural literacy, and is enriching to the individual. Math and music are processed similarly in the brain and often enhance each other.

You quoted the WTM in your original post, so I would guess you are somewhat classical in your educational philosophy. Classical education originates with the ancients, and a key idea of Ancient Greece is the 9 Muses who encompass the ideas of a complete education. The muses often combine History or Science AND the Arts: 

Clio = History and Music
Euterpe = Musical Instruments
Thalia = Comedy (theater), Geometry, Architecture, Agriculture
Melpomene = Tragedy (theater) and Rhetoric
Terpsichore = Dance, Harp, Education
Erato = Love and Love Poetry
Polymnia = Divine Hymns, Mimic Art, Grammar
Calliope = Accompanier of Kings, Justice, Serenity, Heroic Poems, Rhetoric

Edited June 29, 2023 by Lori D.

[Shoeless]

Consider building a half credit art appreciation course around The Golden Ratio.  There are plenty of examples of it in art 🙂 

[daijobu]

On 6/22/2023 at 1:06 PM, Acorn said:

Maybe a fine arts class of geometric art?

I have a resource for this.  Try:  Perspective and Projective Geometry

[Reefgazer]

My son has zip, none, nada because he hates that stuff, and he got into higher-tier schools (not ivies, but higher tier).  The closest thing he had to arts was a woodworking class.

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Edited November 24, 2023 by 000000000

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

My son has zip, none, nada because he hates that stuff, and he got into higher-tier schools (not ivies, but higher tier).  The closest thing he had to arts was a woodworking class.

Why wouldn't woodworking count as art?

I'm asking as the mother of a kid who loves woodworking.  

[Lori D.]

Yes, woodworking can count as a Fine Art credit.
If there is learning, progressing in skill/knowledge, and "output" of project(s), it would qualify. 
I would recommend tracking hours spent in learning/doing to determine if there is enough time spent to count towards a partial or full credit.

 

ETA: Some ideas of types of Fine Arts:

- Performing Arts: Music, Drama, Dance (actual performing/doing)
- Studio Arts (hands-on 3-D types of media: jewelry-making, pottery, sculpting, woodworking, glassblowing or fusing or stained glass, etc.)
- Visual Arts (creating art such as drawing, watercolors, painting, print-making, etc.)
- Design Principles (course on color, line, form, structure, etc. that applies to any of the visual arts)
- Composing (creating/writing music and/or lyrics)
- Choreography (composing of dance for performance)
- Filmmaking
- Photography (print or digital; if print photography, a course focusing on darkroom techniques; etc.)
- Digital Arts (graphic design, web design, Photoshop, computer animation, etc.)
- Appreciation course (Art / Architecture / Music / Drama / Film / Photography -- learning history, artists, movements, and deeper understanding of specific works in a particular medium)

Edited June 30, 2023 by Lori D.

[PeterPan]

On 6/22/2023 at 12:26 AM, Petrova Fossil said:

We are fine arts fumblers in this household. It is not a “meaty” enough subject for us, if you take my meaning.

...

We are STEM oriented.

...

Does skipping a FA credit make a difference in college admissions?

One of the advantages of homeschooling is filling in your own gaps. I happen to HATE history, but my kids have both LOVED history. I got over myself enough to find ways to do it well. I leaned in on what I wasn't good at and got better at it, rather than making excuses. It sounds like in your case, you could do more fine arts with your kids, not less, as you may have been skimping over the years.

I'm not sure what being STEM oriented is supposed to excuse. Highly intelligent people often have wide ranging interests and skills. Ina Garten, accomplished chef, has a phd in physics. Even people with autism like my son can find ways to chain their interests from areas that seem restricted to help them enjoy other areas. I do not shy away from art, opera, etc. with my son merely because his restricted interests lie elsewhere. I do it MORE!! 

It is a mistake to think college admissions is about scores. You can have all the scores you want, but at the end of the day you are differentiated by what makes you INTERESTING. And if you read the boards way way back, you'll also find the recommendation to win at least one national level award if applying to an Ivy. 😉 But yeah, be interesting. You don't want to be the sob stories we get of people with perfect ACT/SAT scores and tons of AP who never let their kids go do crazy other stuff, who never became INTERESTING VARIED PEOPLE. 

https://www.amazon.com/At-Opera-Ann-Fiery/dp/0811827747/ref=sr_1_5?crid=ZCT35H2O4F68&keywords=opera+fiery+book&qid=1688134485&sprefix=opera+fiery+book%2Caps%2C93&sr=8-5  I used this with my dd and highly recommend it for a brief survey of opera. It's super easy to read one a week and then find a youtube version of the opera.

Bulla has similar books for Gilbert & Sullivan (lite opera). 

Technology is making it so easy to connect with beautiful things all over the world. Nuts, you can fly to London for $149 from NYC and go to world class museums for free. At that point it's cheaper than going to museums in NYC, lol. I don't think it's about making excuses about what you can/can't afford but about doing what  you CAN with the resources you have. Rick Steves has a series on the history of art you can watch entirely for FREE!! https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/video/tv-show/art  And we have so many connections between that european art and things you can see affordably or virtually in the US. It starts to make you a more interesting/connected, conversant person. I find too that many people over time start to explore their artistic sides. Jacques Pepin, a chef, is an accomplished artist. Engineers become quilters when they retire (Bruce Seeds), etc. It's such a small view of ourselves to think we have only one facet. You don't know what your kids might enjoy till you try.

Edited June 30, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

23 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

My son has zip, none, nada because he hates that stuff, and he got into higher-tier schools (not ivies, but higher tier).  The closest thing he had to arts was a woodworking class.

Yeah, I was very math/science/languages in high school. I took the bare minimum choir classes and moved on. With my kids, I do lots of appreciation and exposure, even if it's not necessarily for a credit or formal. And in my later years I've gotten into photography, which is of course creative in its own way.

I'm definitely not going to have my ds doing an unnecessary number of fine arts credits just to say we did, lol. That's not his thing, so it would be pointless. 

[PeterPan]

23 hours ago, daijobu said:

I have a resource for this.  Try:  Perspective and Projective Geometry

Is this used as a text somewhere? It seems kind $$, sigh.

[PeterPan]

23 hours ago, daijobu said:

I have a resource for this.  Try:  Perspective and Projective Geometry

I was looking for something more high school level and found this https://www.math.stonybrook.edu/~moira/courses/mat336-sp2021/examples/Paper2.pdf

Ironically, it appears the major advances in art during the middle ages were driven by MATHEMATICAL developments and discoveries, which ought to interest @Petrova Fossil given her kids' STEM interests. The Brunelleschi developments explained in the paper most likely have documentaries/youtube videos available on them showing the direct connection between the math and art. If they already have a FA credit, they could weave it into a high school cultural geography credit.

[daijobu]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

Ironically, it appears the major advances in art during the middle ages were driven by MATHEMATICAL developments and discoveries, which 

I have a source for this as well.  The Great Rift: Literacy, Numeracy and the Religion-Science Divide by Michael Hobart.  If you do read this, don't miss the appendices which are full of fun mathematical/historical bits.  

[Penelope]

Here’s another good source along those lines. https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/mathematics-philosophy-and-the-real-world
 

 

[kiwik]

In my country the only people who would do any kind of arts at high school would be people who loved it or planned a career in it.  A Stem student would be doing maths, physics, chemistry, biology and English up to the equivalent of 11th grade.  They would then likely drop one science so they could do Calculus and Statistics in their final year as maths splits at that point.  Or they might drop English.

[RubyPenn]

Our family is the opposite of yours. We are very musical and artistic, but I required my son to take anatomy this past year (he just graduated) even though he disliked science all the way through school and didn't even need the credit.  I believe exposure to things we don't prefer is very important to be a well- rounded and educated individual.  I didn't make the anatomy course tough, but I did make sure he understood the human body, if only on a basic level.  You can do the same with the arts so your kids are exposed to the great artists, musicians, architects, etc. of our western heritage just so they KNOW.

Edited July 3, 2023 by RubyPenn

[RubyPenn]

On 6/30/2023 at 10:23 AM, PeterPan said:

It is a mistake to think college admissions is about scores. You can have all the scores you want, but at the end of the day you are differentiated by what makes you INTERESTING. And if you read the boards way way back, you'll also find the recommendation to win at least one national level award if applying to an Ivy. 😉 But yeah, be interesting. You don't want to be the sob stories we get of people with perfect ACT/SAT scores and tons of AP who never let their kids go do crazy other stuff, who never became INTERESTING VARIED PEOPLE. 

 

Yes, yes, yes!  100%