Thank you

[Drama Llama]

You all have been helpful but I clearly overshared.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH

[ScoutTN]

Truthful, but guarded? 
“Dad has some important areas that need improvement. How he speaks to other people, for instance.”

[Farrar]

I agree with truthful but guarded or careful. And I'd definitely be supportive. I'd try on something like...

"In the end, you'll be the one who has to decide if your father was a good parent for you. Your aunt has an opinion. You're growing up and developing your own. I think you know I have had some concerns about your father's behavior. But also, I support whatever viewpoint you end up with."

(edited to fix the relationship... which I was originally like, wait, huh? but just went with for some reason!)

Edited January 9, 2023 by Farrar

[thatfirstsip]

How about, "Right now, it's not okay for me to tell you my opinion on whether your dad is a good parent. BIL is there to help protect you if things become difficult while you're with your dad; the judge has decided that that's the safest thing for you guys. Dad loves you, and so do I, and so does BIL."

I commend you, though, for telling him you can't answer right now, and brainstorming with your therapist for a good way to answer it without alienating him from his dad or being insincere. It's a very tricky line, and hard to do in the moment.

 

[Sneezyone]

I think honest but guarded is the way to go. I've done that with my kids and it seems to be working. 

I've done, "I have a strained relationship with X but my relationship doesn't have to be the same as yours. You get to decide for yourself how you feel about X and what level of interaction you want to have."

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH

[wendyroo]

If it is true...
"Your Dad used to be an amazing parent. I always admired how he X, Y and Zed with you and your brothers. Right now his brain is making it really hard for him to do that. Not because he doesn't want to - I really think he does want to be a good parent to you - but because parts of his brain are too sick right now for him to do that. I really hope, for him, and for you, and for all of us, that his brain heals over time and he can start parenting more like he used to."

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, BandH said:

The court has decided this.  My kid would very much like to see his Dad more often than the court allows.  

Ah... in that case...

I'm sorry you had to see that conversation. No. Auntie doesn't think your Dad is a safe person right now and neither do I. The courts agreed too and took steps to protect you by requiring supervised visits. At some point you'll be able to decide for yourself what kind of relationship you want to have. For now, I just want you to gather up as many positive experiences as you can and save them for a rainy day.

[catz]

“I think he is likely trying to do the best he can with the tools he has available to him right now.  I don’t think his tools are what they should be and he is working on it. “ and then i would turn it back to how he feels and setting a tone to encourage open ongoing  dialogue.  So are your kids not aware you requested visitation like this? 
 

this is so hard.  I’ve always been very upfront with my own kids when adults in our life are acting badly and calling it out.  Not in a holier than thou way.   But in a I am concerned about X not being healthy for Y.   I also call it out and apologize in some cases when we make mistakes as parents.  We are not infallible.   It’s walking that line of possibly expressing some level of concern without being negative or criticizing.   The fact that a 12 year old has asked this directly would make me think about this carefully and not brush it aside.   I feel like my parents did me a disservice by act like any and all adult behavior I witnessed was fine because we had some very dysfunctional people in our lives and I never really worked through it until I went through therapy.  
 

another approach might be to ask DS what he thought about being yelled at and getting caught in this crossfire of back and forth.  
 

checking in with the therapist is a really excellent idea.  If you are still doing group therapy with DH, I might ask him to consider apologizing to DS for his part of that interaction if he hasn’t done so.  I’m sorry you are dealing with this.   

Edited January 9, 2023 by catz

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH

[Katy]

I think you are capable of making up your own mind about Dad.

[lauraw4321]

Oh my. That is so hard. 
 

I think I would say something like this “I believe that DH makes choices good parents don’t make.” I might try to discuss the incident that led To that particular argument. That a good dad doesn’t yell at his son for no reason and doesn’t have fights with adults in front of his kids. But that ultimately he’ll be the only person who can decide whether his dad has been a good or bad dad to him. 

[thatfirstsip]

43 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

If it is true...
"Your Dad used to be an amazing parent. I always admired how he X, Y and Zed with you and your brothers. Right now his brain is making it really hard for him to do that. Not because he doesn't want to - I really think he does want to be a good parent to you - but because parts of his brain are too sick right now for him to do that. I really hope, for him, and for you, and for all of us, that his brain heals over time and he can start parenting more like he used to."

Like, 100% run it by your lawyer before you say anything like this to your kid.

[thatfirstsip]

A lot of these responses are great and honest but a potential divorce court will not like hearing that you've said them to your kid during a separation. Really, seriously, consult your lawyer.

[thatfirstsip]

28 minutes ago, BandH said:

I worry that this:

 

and this

Feel like excuses.  I don't want to bad mouth their Dad, but I also want my kid to know that what happens to him isn't OK.  That my kid doesn't deserve it.  

I also don't think DH is doing the best he can.  

Well here you can be honest without badmouthing his dad directly (which, again, courts hate). You can say, "Adults should never yell at you for irrational reasons [or at all, say whatever you believe about good behavior between adults and kids]. They shouldn't try to hurt you, or blame you for things that aren't your fault [or whatever issue is relevant to the situation]. If these things happen to you, you can always tell [various trusted adults in his life] and we will do our best to protect you."

 

[SKL]

"We all have room for improvement, and we all have opinions.  I guess it would have been better if neither of the adults insulted the other adult's parenting."

"There's a difference between being a good parent and making excellent parenting choices.  I think a good parent is a parent who loves his kids and tries to make choices that benefit the kids, while still having whatever human faults each of us has.  A good parent can make parenting mistakes, in fact all of us have."

"As to whether I personally think your dad is a good parent, I know he loves you and wants to make good choices regarding his children.  People can disagree with the specific choices he makes or has made in the past."

[Rosie_0801]

I say "Due to court orders, I couldn't possibly comment." 

In your shoes I might say "I don't think he's getting the results he desires."

[Tanaqui]

Well... there's always the old classic of punting it right back to the kid, as in "Why do you think your aunt might have said that?"

Or, barring that, "None of us are perfect, and we all make mistakes. As you get older, you'll have to decide for yourself if you think your dad is mostly a good parent - I honestly can't make that decision for you, and it wouldn't be responsible for me to try to influence you."

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH

[Sneezyone]

41 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

Well here you can be honest without badmouthing his dad directly (which, again, courts hate). You can say, "Adults should never yell at you for irrational reasons [or at all, say whatever you believe about good behavior between adults and kids]. They shouldn't try to hurt you, or blame you for things that aren't your fault [or whatever issue is relevant to the situation]. If these things happen to you, you can always tell [various trusted adults in his life] and we will do our best to protect you."

 

Telling the truth (kid witnessed paternal aunt saying dad wasn’t acting appropriately, court ordered supervised visits, mom agreed) isn’t badmouthing. It’s stating facts. You can say that and also encourage kiddo to make up their own mind and hold on to the good bits. 12yos aren’t stupid. Lying won’t help kiddo see you as a safe/reliable narrator either. Sugar coating makes kiddo the only person who doesn’t have access to age-appropriate truth/facts. It’s like the last kid in the family who still believes in Santa.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Tanaqui]

2 hours ago, BandH said:

I'm hesitant to use the word "mistake" to describe abuse.  

 

Fair enough. I'd expect you to tailor that example to what makes sense to you (and what you're not going to risk legal trouble for saying).

[gardenmom5]

"your father and I have different ideas of parenting".   

[Laura Corin]

I would reply with, 'He's trying very hard to be a good parent.'

[Carrie12345]

Having a newly minted 12yo, I think that’s an especially difficult age to find a “right” answer.  A 12yo is generally going to be smart enough to infer the real answer, however it gets phrased.

But also, a 12yo might be young enough that this could be the first time considering what it means to be a “good parent”. Does it mean loving your child? Playing with your child? Feeding and clothing your child?  Speaking appropriately with your child? (And then definitions of appropriate.).  
Some 12yos may have a good understanding of mental health difficulties and/or abuse and some may not.  
Nearly all children feel bonded to even the worst parents, so the cognitive dissonance is huge.

 I’m still a big believer in honesty at an appropriate level, but wanted to point out that what he has asked could be a lot more complicated than the simple words, with a lot depending on what kind of 12yo he is.

[Guest]

I haven’t been in this situation, but I would be careful about the “his brain is too sick” type response, because kiddo may (rightly) worry that their brain might get sick too and then they will be “bad”. 
 

Remember in the 5th book when Harry Potter tells Sirius, “What if, after everything that has happened, something has gone wrong? What if I’m becoming bad?” A lot of kids worry that they will turn bad. I wouldn’t say anything that leads kiddo to think that could definitely happen. 
 

I really think the less said the better. 

[ScoutTN]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

I really think the less said the better. 

Yes, this!

Be succinct and let it go. If 12 yo has follow up thoughts or questions, then more engagement is necessary, but a very simple answer may suffice.

[Jaybee]

A concern I would have about a strong hands-off "make up your own mind" approach, is that children can internalize things as being okay that really aren't okay, and this affects future interactions and relationships. It's a sticky situation, for sure. Guarded but honest sounds good. Just how guarded and just how honest? Lots of care to be taken in choosing the words.

[Faith-manor]

Truthful, but not vengeful. "Dad is mentally ill and due to this is not able to parent appropriately which is why you are not alone with him. Grandpa, aunt, uncle, and I and the courts want to keep you healthy and safe while dad gets help. Someday he might be able to parent appropriately. Until then, we your family do everything we can to do what is best for you." I find that with kids, the word appropriate sounds like there is a best way to do things or a better way, and then there are lesser ways, and we strive for the better, but it doesn't have super judgmental connotations compared to other language that could be used. I also would not seek to control what the aunt and uncle say about the matter should he ask them. If they choose to say, "Your dad is a bad parent because x, y, z" let it go. 12 is old enough to begin to understand contemplate their opinion and reasons for their opinion. Done try to micromanage it.

 

[Faith-manor]

I respect the idea of "less said". However, I come back to the fact that this always allows the abusive behavior of others to be accepted as okay. Kids should not be conditioned to accept that.

[wendyroo]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I respect the idea of "less said". However, I come back to the fact that this always allows the abusive behavior of others to be accepted as okay. Kids should not be conditioned to accept that.

I agree.

I think "less said" is good as long as it is taken to mean: Say your brief piece and then let it go unless he brings it up again.

I don't think it is good if it is taken to mean: Sweep the truth of the situation under the rug and avoid talking about the very real ramifications of mental illness that the child is experiencing.

Acknowledging that his father is mentally ill is not bad mouthing him. It is stating a fact (backed up by his prolonged stay at the hospital and the court ordered supervised visitation). Treating mental illness as something shameful that can't be mentioned lest it insult the person, is reinforcing a very harmful stigma. 

My kids deal with mental illness everyday. I don't have the luxury of ignoring it or protecting them from the worry that it might happen to them some day. They could very well become mentally ill someday to the point that they too make "bad" decisions. All I can do is model how we balance supporting and loving a mentally ill family member with enforcing boundaries to keep ourselves safe. I just hope they can take comfort in knowing that if they do become mentally ill, that is how we will treat them as well.

[thatfirstsip]

Again, a family court generally doesn't care if the facts of what you are saying are true; they don't want you speaking negatively about the other parent - although the degree of this will differ by jurisdiction and by judge, which is why asking your lawyer is important. The lawyer will know how the local courts lean on the issue - but certainly some of them are not okay with one parent telling the straight facts about the other parent to the children during a divorce or separation. If you get a judge or a court that is very pro-father's-rights, this situation can be hairy.

I don't say this to say that I think it's right that it's this way, or that it serves the best interests of the kids, but just to say that asking your lawyer about how the court will interpret your husband coming to the court and claiming alienation on the basis of B&H having said, "Your father is mentally ill and it causes him to parent badly. What you experience from him is abuse," - or any form of the above - is really important.

[Annie G]

Given that you said the boy would very much like to spend more time with his dad, his question might indicate he’s trying to work out how he feels about his dad. Perhaps he’s struggling with it because he saw/heard other people say he’s a bad dad.  Sounds like a great thing for him to discuss with his therapist. 
I’m sorry you’re in this position- if it was him struggling with a teacher or friend you’d be helping him navigate how to hear negative things and decide how to proceed. But you can’t in this instance, and it feels like the end result is he’s unable to ask the one he trusts most. Because you like;y CANNOT tell him how you feel. 

[elegantlion]

In my household, that conversation would be have been something like "I have no doubt that your father loves you very much." followed by hugs, maybe a general comment on how yelling is not a good way to resolve conflicts. Then "Would you like to..." (insert something you can do together from having ice cream to watching a movie to whatever). 

It's a bit of avoiding the question but, in my opinion, it gets at the root of what *I* think a child sees as a "good parent" - one that loves them. 

 

(N.B.- I've had to have several difficult conversations with ds about his father, one of the hardest when ds was 8.)

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by elegantlion

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH

[bolt.]

I'm seeing a lot of really good responses here, and I like a bunch of them!

For me, I'd be inclined to shift the vocabulary a bit. The question, "Is he a good parent?" -- asks, in a way, 'Is he a good person-who-is-a-parent?' And that's very hard to answer diplomatically and healthily in your situation.

Another related question is, "Is he good at parenting?" -- which changes the focus from 'parent as identity' to 'parenting as a skill'.

I'd outline my answer something along the lines of "Your dad is a good person who loves you" (with some repetition for emphasis) "But parenting is a thing that people aren't always good at. They start knowing nothing with a baby, they make mistakes and they learn, usually they get pretty good, but sometimes things go wrong and they aren't very good at it for a while, and some people are hurtful some of the time as parents. The love never goes away, but the ability to parent well, to do a good job, can come and go." Maybe: "Being sometimes good at parenting and sometimes not so good is pretty normal, everybody has their moments, but when people hurt others, we get some distance and some help." Maybe even, "Your dad wants to get better at parenting. That's one of the goals he is working on. He's such a good person to be working on that goal because he loves you."

Just my thoughts. I hope they make sense.

[lauraw4321]

You don’t think he loves his son? That is a strong and surprising statement. 

[regentrude]

"Good parent" is so difficult to define and I would deflect and instead of answering the question directly, be specific about his behavior:
 "Doing xyz (list specific act of abuse that has happened in the past) is not okay for a parent."
He is twelve and likely conflicted what loving his dad means for him. It might be good if he could hear "specific behavior a, b, and c are not acceptable". That does not label his father a good or bad parent but makes it clear that certain actions are inapporpriate.

[Harriet Vane]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

"Good parent" is so difficult to define and I would deflect and instead of answering the question directly, be specific about his behavior:
 "Doing xyz (list specific act of abuse that has happened in the past) is not okay for a parent."
He is twelve and likely conflicted what loving his dad means for him. It might be good if he could hear "specific behavior a, b, and c are not acceptable". That does not label his father a good or bad parent but makes it clear that certain actions are inapporpriate.

This.

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH

[Anne]

I’m so sorry, BandH, this must be so difficult.

Anne

[lauraw4321]

Your response is so unfathomable to me that I really don't know what I would say. So once again I'll duck out of the thread. 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, lauraw4321 said:

Your response is so unfathomable to me that I really don't know what I would say. So once again I'll duck out of the thread. 

It really sucks but it is absolutely a reality in some families.  

[Clarita]

I wonder if "I can't answer that," might be a valid response in this case. I've never been in the situation that you or you son has been in, but my mom when I was a teen shared too much with me (that was about my dad). Not that she was totally wrong, she just wanted to tell me the truth but she had a lot of emotion and being in the midst of it that in hindsight made it inappropriate for her to be the one fleshing those issues out with me. It helped me process a lot more with an adult who wasn't so involved. For me this was a youth pastor and one of my mom's friends. 

[pinball]

56 minutes ago, BandH said:

I don’t think he loves this son.  I could be wrong.  But I am certainly not going to say things that are suggested like “I have no doubt he loves you.”

I thought his breakdown and hospitalization and all this was due to the death of his son.

Do I have that wrong? Or did he only love the one son he lost? 

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

You don’t think he loves his son? That is a strong and surprising statement. 

My brother loves his 2 daughters. He does not love his 3 sons, though he has minor, emotional attachment. He had his 3 sons with his 1st wife, and his only use for his sons was as pawns with which to hurt her. He now has no relationship with his adult sons. He actually lost his relationship with his eldest son when he was 16 and no longer forced by the court to see his dad. His wife, only loves one of their 2 daughters, and it is blatantly obvious.

My grandparents never loved my dad. They were having major relationship problems when he was born, and they never bonded with him as a baby. Five children, and one of the kids keenly felt that lack of love in the face of the others being loved and adored.

I also know someone else who is divorcing in which the wife is absolutely obsessively, stalkerishly "in love" with the soon to be x spouse, but has no actual love and attachment to her children. She sees them and spends time with them out of obligation, and because it means she is still intertwined with the object of her obsession.

I get it. Unfortunately. Sigh.

Hugs, hugs, hugs, hugs, OP!

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

"Good parent" is so difficult to define and I would deflect and instead of answering the question directly, be specific about his behavior:
 "Doing xyz (list specific act of abuse that has happened in the past) is not okay for a parent."
He is twelve and likely conflicted what loving his dad means for him. It might be good if he could hear "specific behavior a, b, and c are not acceptable". That does not label his father a good or bad parent but makes it clear that certain actions are inapporpriate.

Yes this. And kids really need to learn what is and is not appropriate so that as adults they recognize it, and also hopefully make an effort to not repeat it with their own families. Appropriate is just such a good word because it can be framed as what is acceptable parenting action without making a judgment call about the inherent goodness or badness of the person. Also maybe add that all parents make mistakes because humans aren't perfect, but it is appropriate for parents to acknowledge their failures and apologize, make amends. This is also important so that they will realize as adults, they should eat crow when they mess up, and they should be wary of being deeply intertwined with individuals who never acknowledge their own humanity and refuse to try to do better because often those relationships do end up being abusive.

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, BandH said:

I don’t think he loves this son.  I could be wrong.  But I am certainly not going to say things that are suggested like “I have no doubt he loves you.”

You are absolutely correct to speak truth.

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited January 10, 2023 by BandH