s/o anxiety, apologies and context

[LaughingCat]

Quote

Because the offender does not take responsibility for their actions. Her feelings are her responsibility, your actions are yours.

Quote

Paraphrased:  When a person takes offense, it's normal to want to defend yourself, give context and explain.  Although many people will hear the context some people find that it invalidates their feelings. 

<deleted>

From the other thread (quotes above) it appears some would say that I, as offender, should apologize because my actions hurt sibling's feelings and also not give any context to explain why I chose those particular actions because my sibling finds explanations invalidating.

Do people think I owe sibling an apology?   If so, what specific apology?  If not, do you see any way to smooth things over between us? Or any thoughts on anxiety that would at least allow me to see sibling a different light?  (everyone in my personal life is affirming that I have done the best I can -- but Hive often has more diverse opinions)

Edited June 21, 2022 by LaughingCat
paraphrase quote on request

[City Mouse]

No! 
I do not think you owe an apology. You are supposed to follow your father’s will. The concerns over leaving the house should have been brought up a long time ago, not after the house is sold. Nothing can be done now even if you wanted to.

you could say “legally, I have to follow what is in Dad’s will. I am sorry they did not put those wishes in the will”

I guess you could have given up your share to that sibling, but there is still the 3rd share to deal with.

[fairfarmhand]

Just now, City Mouse said:

No! 
I do not think you owe an apology. You are supposed to follow your father’s will. The concerns over leaving the house should have been brought up a long time ago, not after the house is sold. Nothing can be done now even if you wanted to.

you could say “legally, I have to follow what is in Dad’s will. I am sorry they did not put those wishes in the will”

 

This!

[Jean in Newcastle]

No.  You are legally obligated to follow the will as an executor. 

I assume that since you are an adult with children, that your sibling is an adult as well.  I also assume that she doesn't have a disability that would require being taken care of for the rest of her life since hopefully your parents would have taken care of that with some kind of trust. 

[Slache]

No. You laid out what you were going to do and you did it. This is not a surprise and not unexpected. You have done nothing wrong.

[Katy]

No. If they wanted it in the wills they would have put it in the wills. This is an example of why walking on eggshells for one mental illness is bad for everyone. 

[TechWife]

 

41 minutes ago, LaughingCat said:

From the other thread (quotes above) it appears some would say that I, as offender, should apologize because my actions hurt sibling's feelings and also not give any context to explain why I chose those particular actions because my sibling finds explanations invalidating.

Do people think I owe sibling an apology?   If so, what specific apology?  If not, do you see any way to smooth things over between us? Or any thoughts on anxiety that would at least allow me to see sibling a different light?  (everyone in my personal life is affirming that I have done the best I can -- but Hive often has more diverse opinions)

I was in nearly the exact same situation when my mother died, right down to the portion going to my deceased brother's family. My brother lived in their house, could not afford to live on his own & was given many opportunities. He took no action until the day that the for sale sign went into the yard, a full five months after my mother died. That day there was a meltdown in front of multiple people, one of whom stayed with me until he left the house to make sure I was safe. I truly think he was, all at the same time: grieving, scared, and a jerk. Still, he alone is responsible for managing his emotions.

You do not owe your brother an apology of any kind. Your actions have not been wrong, you have nothing to apologize for. You have done exactly what your father wanted you to do.

In my case, it was a full three years after the house went on the market before my brother would talk to me at all. I was "cut off." I reached out to him last year (I had reached out before but was rebuffed) to let him know one of our childhood friends had died, and since then we seem to be slowly building a relationship. We used to be such good friends, having weathered our teen years together in a difficult home. I still mourn that relationship, but realize it will never be the same. I am hopeful that what we will have will be good.

I'm so sorry this has happened. Please feel free to reach out by pm if you need support.

[gardenmom5]

you have my deepest condolences.

You've been generous with warnings and time - you have a sibling who is unreasonable and short of giving them the house (and maybe not even that.) there is nothing you could have done with which they would have been happy - while being unfair to yourself and your other sibling.   You are following the law - your sibling isn't.

 

 

My brother actually threatened to sue me over my mother's estate.   He got military legal aid to send me a threatening letter.   He demanded a copy of her (air tight) estate documents.  Fine.  I'm positive he couldn't get a lawyer (not hyperbole) to take the case because the estate was 1/3 split between siblings, and he wanted a bigger share.   He was so desperate to get his hands on her cash - he was manipulating her in front of drs at the hospital.  They  called security to escort him out.

Executor's normally will receive a fee/percentage of the estate for doing this work.  *I* was afraid of what my brother would do next if dh took a fee.

[LaughingCat]

Additional info:

<deleted>

Edited June 21, 2022 by LaughingCat

[Catwoman]

@LaughingCat Please don’t give up any of your share. Your parents wanted you to have it, and your sibling should not be making you feel guilty about following your parents wishes.

Please don’t be manipulated. You are a very nice person, and it sounds like the sibling will be more than happy to take advantage of you if you allow it. Use the money to take care of your own family, and let sibling take care of themselves. (And also, no matter how much of your inheritance you share with your sibling, anything short of being able to keep the house free and clear will probably will not be enough to satisfy them, anyway.)

[Katy]

The executor’s fee is probably what your parents wanted you to have so you’d deal with this instead of them. 

[freesia]

I think you should take the executor fee. I hope my brother takes it when my mom passes bc it’s a big job and Is feel less badly that he’s the one who is doing it. 

[Tanaqui]

Clearly the people to blame here are your parents, who said one thing but did another.

Unless you and your other sibling's family are willing to gift your shares of the estate over to this sibling, I don't see how you have much of a choice here. You're stuck with what the will actually says. It's not as though the will is unfair in some way - "split the property evenly" is about as fair as it gets!

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

The executor’s fee is probably what your parents wanted you to have so you’d deal with this instead of them. 

this is why executor's fees should *always* be listed in a will.  Not going with "as customary".

 

I have one sibling who melted down over my grandmother's will - and when mom was making her's (as part of her trust) I requested of the estate lawyer a "super duper nasty clause that anyone causing trouble would be cut off".   The one sibling only made scenes . . . my brother . . . . was threatening.  He was really really mad he wasn't the executor, and he was still trying to tell everyone what to do.  Dh- just ignored him.  didn't faze him a bit.

Edited June 20, 2022 by gardenmom5
correcting a word

[Faith-manor]

You did nothing wrong. It is really tough to be an executor. There are legal obligations, you have to follow them, and people have to deal with it. There isn't leeway because someone is having a hard time.

My NPD sister in law not anxiety, full on diagnosed NPD) is going to be a trip and a half when my mother in law passes. Dh is executor, his brother is back up. They have a plan and it won't be easy. Everything is spelled out in her will/trust.

Don't be twisted up. And do not share your portion. It is sad, but the other sibling simply is going to have to adjust.

[Beth S]

It is possible that once your sibling has a big check (their portion) in their hand, after the sale of the house, they will be more reasonable.

We are already anticipating the challenges of being an Executor to a complex estate (dh's parents).
The Executor is required to follow the written will.
It all takes a lot of time to settle an estate.
The house was your parents' asset . . . and they chose what they wanted to do with it.
Your mother could have been arguing with your dad for years about the house . . . but everyone knows that the written will is the requirement.

Treating all 3 siblings equally is what your parents wanted.
Possibly you could get the attorney who is doing the legal work to explain it to your sibling.
A unrelated third party.

And thank you for all the work and patience you've shown in this difficult task as Executor.
This, sadly, is a common occurence between siblings, when settling an Estate.

[Laura Corin]

One of my siblings wanted the share that he knows he will get of my mother's money on her death to be paid to me instead. I am one of the executors.  He wanted me to transfer it to him slowly over the years so that he would not lose government benefits by having savings that were too large.

I just said, 'I'm sorry, as executor I have to transfer it to you immediately that the will is proved. The will is a legal document and I don't have the power to do otherwise.' Luckily, he accepted this. So I apologised (for disappointing him) but moved on quickly to there being no choice in the matter.

[wintermom]

I don't quite see how you'd define yourself as an 'offender' by carrying out the job as executor. There is nothing for you to apologize about. It sounds like you have been very generous with providing your sibling time to move out and find a new place to live. 

I'm really sorry that your parents seem to have set you, and presumably your sibling, up for this rough situation. That's maybe due to very poor legal advice or something else. Did your dad not talk to you about the will before he died, and what he hoped for this sibling with anxiety? Sometimes a parent wants to let a somewhat dependent adult child the opportunity to stand on their own two feet. Was your sibling helping out your dad prior to his passing, and they were both benefiting from the living arrangement? 

Edited June 20, 2022 by wintermom

[Not_a_Number]

If I were you, I'd make it clear that your regret this and feel for your sibling, but that you don't have a choice. Don't get angry at them and don't take their anxiety attack as aimed at you (even though they are phrasing it that way), but be firm. 

And if they choose to cut contact over this, that's their choice. At least you didn't stoop to the level of petty recriminations. 

[Carrie12345]

3 hours ago, LaughingCat said:

From the other thread (quotes above) it appears some would say that I, as offender, should apologize because my actions hurt sibling's feelings and also not give any context to explain why I chose those particular actions because my sibling finds explanations invalidating

These were not “your actions”. These were the legal instructions left for you to follow. You are not accountable for (both of) your father’s instructions being found to feel invalidating.

[Melissa Louise]

I'd rather you didn't tak a quote of mine that applied to some belongings being moved, and apply it to a legal issue. 

Can you not paraphrase? 

[LaughingCat]

49 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'd rather you didn't tak a quote of mine that applied to some belongings being moved, and apply it to a legal issue. 

Can you not paraphrase? 

Sorry Melissa Louise -- it just rang so true to me for this situation -- sibling does not want to hear any context or reasons why.  I will edit it.

[Ausmumof3]

This sounds like a different situation to the other thread to me because you are following a legal document, you advised sibling of what you’re doing in advance and you are talking about an adult sibling relationship not parent child relationship.

Did your mum verbally express that wish to you or is that siblings claim? Doesn’t change the rights and wrongs exactly but it might change how I would act personally.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[Jean in Newcastle]

26 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This sounds like a different situation to the other thread to me because you are following a legal document, you advised sibling of what you’re doing in advance and you are talking about an adult sibling relationship not parent child relationship.

Did your mum verbally express that wish to you or is that siblings claim? Doesn’t change the rights and wrongs exactly but it might change how I would act personally.

The mother died first. Her wishes would be superseded by those of the remaining spouse (dad) who just passed away. It’s not realistic to say that 2/3 of the estate has to be given up because of something said before circumstances changed. 

[gardenmom5]

50 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This sounds like a different situation to the other thread to me because you are following a legal document, you advised sibling of what you’re doing in advance and you are talking about an adult sibling relationship not parent child relationship.

Did your mum verbally express that wish to you or is that siblings claim? Doesn’t change the rights and wrongs exactly but it might change how I would act personally.

The mom died first - BUT, even if she'd died last, anything she says is superseded by what is written in the will itself.  The last will trumps everything (e.g. previous wills, verbal promises, etc.).  The only thing that would have changed things was if the siblings name was on the actual legal property deed. (which I assume is not the case.)

And since her mother died first, and her father died last - it's what he wanted that matters.

[vonfirmath]

17 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

The mom died first - BUT, even if she'd died last, anything she says is superseded by what is written in the will itself.  The last will trumps everything (e.g. previous wills, verbal promises, etc.).  The only thing that would have changed things was if the siblings name was on the actual legal property deed. (which I assume is not the case.)

And since her mother died first, and her father died last - it's what he wanted that matters.

This even matters in the case when they both die in the same incident. My friend lost her parents in a car crash and they carefully determined who died first so they knew which will to probate.

 

[Ausmumof3]

35 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

The mom died first - BUT, even if she'd died last, anything she says is superseded by what is written in the will itself.  The last will trumps everything (e.g. previous wills, verbal promises, etc.).  The only thing that would have changed things was if the siblings name was on the actual legal property deed. (which I assume is not the case.)

And since her mother died first, and her father died last - it's what he wanted that matters.

Yes I agree legally. It just might change the way I would want to act personally because I’d want to honour the wishes of both parents if possible without disadvantage to other siblings. That said, I don’t think there’s any legal or moral obligation it would just be my feeling about the matter. It seems a pity that the parents didn’t agree about it.

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes I agree legally. It just might change the way I would want to act personally because I’d want to honour the wishes of both parents if possible without disadvantage to other siblings. That said, I don’t think there’s any legal or moral obligation it would just be my feeling about the matter. It seems a pity that the parents didn’t agree about it.

A will is a legally binding document.  The executor is legally bound to follow it  - contradictory verbal instructions are irrelevant.

we don't know what was in the mother's will.  She COULD have left her 1/2 share of the house to the child upon the death of her husband (should he survive her).  She might have thought the husband would die first, and then she could do what she wanted with her will.  -  it could also be she told the sibling what the sibling wanted to hear to get the sibling off the parents backs and not hassle them.   The point is - she/they didn't do any of it.    Given nothing was ever legally put in writing - I'm inclined to think the sibling was told what the mom thought the sibling wanted to hear so she wouldn't be harassed. 

Yes - that happens, and the surviving responsible children who are left are the ones who have to deal with the mess.

eta: this isn't an "executor/sibling" will.  This is a 3 party will.  Even though the third sibling is deceased, there are surviving adult children of that sibling - and they are also party to the will.  The parents deliberately put those grandchildren in the will.  "honoring the mom's verbal instructions" - not only goes against the legal will, it screws them over by denying them the inheritance their grandparents wished for them.

Edited June 21, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Melissa Louise]

I've been thinking about this. 

The sibling is experiencing two bereavements, by the sounds of things - the loss of the parent (shared by everyone) and the loss of their home (not their house, true, but also not shared by everyone). 

I think that's context I might keep in mind when dealing with the sib. Maybe even acknowledge it? 

Does sib have the ability to house themselves going forward? 

[LaughingCat]

Some things in response:

I do sympathize with sibling and I feel like I have told them so (although perhaps they didn't 'hear' my sympathy) -- I get that it is hard, that is why I have given them extra time.  I'm just at end of time I can realistically give them without hurting deceased siblings family (who have been extremely sympathatic and patient with the situation). 

Sibling is not destitute (not well off either -- but can certainly afford to rent a place).   

Mom said this to all of us multiple times.  However, I found her will and it was just like Dad's (with addition of 100% going to Dad first of course) -- and I told sibling this months ago.  Additionally Dad had not hidden his will, it was available where sibling could have read it at anytime, could have asked me, etc -- but didn't.   I did express my sympathy for this too when it was brought up shortly after Dad died. 

I don't actually think there is any choice for me that is actually what Mom or Dad would have wanted -- I don't believe they ever meant for me (or deceased sibling) to give up our 1/3 share, nor did they mean for me to put my own money into supporting sibling.  I think Mom just thought that we would all survive both of them, and that we could agree to wait on our inheritance so as to keep house for sibling for a few years (and that sibling would eventually move out on their own -- which I seriously doubt at this point).   But if that was her plan, then it failed when deceased sibling died last year.

I do actually think this is very like the other thread with only the addition of legal responsibility (and sibling relationship vs parent/child)-- because  I am only doing the next normal/logical thing while giving plenty of notice (but no actual deadline up until the actual contract when sibling lost it),  sibling is hurt and upset by my actions since sibling is disregarding any reason why I would do what I did, even though sibling was aware (and apparently agreed to) the overall plan the whole time.      On other thread, OP gave DD plenty of notice, did the next normal/logical thing, and DD is hurt and upset and also disregarding any reasons why it made sense for the actions to take place as they did even though DD was aware of the overall plan the whole time. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

And in both situations it’s ok to do the next normal/logical thing. Let the “victim “ (in quotes because they really aren’t victims at all) have their feelings but don’t allow yourself to be manipulated by them. We actually have some choices about how we’re going to manage or respond to our feelings especially once our brains have matured. Hopefully the sibling will come through this with more skills to be a self sufficient adult. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, LaughingCat said:

 

Mom said this to all of us multiple times.  However, I found her will and it was just like Dad's (with addition of 100% going to Dad first of course) -- and I told sibling this months ago.  Additionally Dad had not hidden his will, it was available where sibling could have read it at anytime,

 

I don't actually think there is any choice for me that is actually what Mom or Dad would have wanted -- I don't believe they ever meant for me (or deceased sibling) to give up our 1/3 share, nor did they mean for me to put my own money into supporting sibling.  I think Mom just thought that we would all survive both of them, and that we could agree to wait on our inheritance so as to keep house for sibling for a few years (and that sibling would eventually move out on their own -- which I seriously doubt at this point).   But if that was her plan, then it failed when deceased sibling died last year.

 

It sounds like your mom was living in fantasyland of having her cake and eating it too.  re: giving each sibling 1/3 share, and giving the sibling the entire house are mutually exclusive.  

She made *what she wanted* known by the wording of her will.  She left her share of the estate to your dad.  Your dad wanted the estate divided equitably between each sibling (or their own beneficiaries as in the estate of your deceased sibling).

Your mom obviously loved the sibling living in the house, but she was likely in denial if she thought sibling would eventually move out on their own.  Especially after being told multiple times sibling was going to be given the house upon the death of both parents.

You've been generous with time of giving sibling notice the house is going to be sold while it was cleaned out, the house has been listed, the house has been sold and the buyer takes possession on ___ date - time isn't unlimited.  Sibling has had the better part of a year.  You can have empathy they are being forced to move - but do not allow them to manipulate you.  Especially do not allow sibling to make you feel guilty you were following the legal instructions in your father's will.

I'm sorry you got put into this position.

 

[Catwoman]

I feel very sorry for sibling, because it sounds like they trusted what their mom told them, and then was blindsided by the terms of the will. It may have been a real shock to sibling to find out that they couldn’t remain in that house forever.

But the will says what it says, and it’s a legal document, so sibling has no one to be angry with other than their late parents, if the parents acted like sibling was getting the house.  @LaughingCat is just doing her job according to the law. There is no justification for her sibling being angry with her. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

52 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I feel very sorry for sibling, because it sounds like they trusted what their mom told them, and then was blindsided by the terms of the will. It may have been a real shock to sibling to find out that they couldn’t remain in that house forever.

But the will says what it says, and it’s a legal document, so sibling has no one to be angry with other than their late parents, if the parents acted like sibling was getting the house.  @LaughingCat is just doing her job according to the law. There is no justification for her sibling being angry with her. 

I honestly don’t get this. What non disabled adult would think that they deserved 100% of the inheritance??. The house is the inheritance. Anyone who thought that is astonishingly  entitled. I do see as stated above that perhaps the mom thought that this sibling needed more help launching but the OP has given them extra time. Time for the sibling to put their adult panties on. 

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I honestly don’t get this. What non disabled adult would think that they deserved 100% of the inheritance??. The house is the inheritance. Anyone who thought that is astonishingly  entitled. I do see as stated above that perhaps the mom thought that this sibling needed more help launching but the OP has given them extra time. Time for the sibling to put their adult panties on. 

People get attached to houses and sometimes don't think through what they mean in cash terms. They should but they often don't. 

When my mum's house was being sold, a young relative asked to buy it at a discounted price. He liked the house and thought it would be nice if it stayed in the family,  and he couldn't afford full price. He really didn't consider that he would be depriving his grandmother of the funds she needed for her extreme old age, and would also be taking inheritance from other family members if there was cash left when Mum came to die. Once it was all pointed out, he understood,  but he just wasn't thinking in cash terms.

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

People get attached to houses and sometimes don't think through what they mean in cash terms. They should but they often don't. 

When my mum's house was being sold, a young relative asked to buy it at a discounted price. He liked the house and thought it would be nice if it stayed in the family,  and he couldn't afford full price. He really didn't consider that he would be depriving his grandmother of the funds she needed for her extreme old age, and would also be taking inheritance from other family members if there was cash left when Mum came to die. Once it was all pointed out, he understood,  but he just wasn't thinking in cash terms.

But surely the OP has explained this and the sibling is still acting like an entitled “victim “. 

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

But surely the OP has explained this and the sibling is still acting like an entitled “victim “. 

Oh, I’m not saying the sibling is right to be acting this way. It’s not LaughingCat’s fault that her parents wrote their will as they did, so she shouldn’t be the target of her sibling’s complaints and hurt feelings. I’m just saying that, if the parents really did always keep promising the house to that sibling, I can understand why the sibling is feeling hurt and betrayed. But sibling’s complaints are misplaced, because the betrayal (if there was one,) was by the parents, not by LaughingCat or the other siblings. 

[marbel]

Deleted for privacy.

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by marbel