Shooting at a Texas elementary school

[Dmmetler]

9 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

The exits are one way. The entrance is single entry. DDs high school was designed with shooters in mind. The entrance is circular so you can’t immediately shoot into a hallway. Classrooms are separated from the entry by a courtyard, etc. Architectural firms in the US actually specialize in this.

And it works until the school population outgrows the building, and they need to start adding portable classrooms.  A lot of schools here are well over 150% capacity, so even if the main building was built for safety, kids are going in and out all day, rendering most of it moot.  And a lot of older buildings aren't built with this sort of security in mind-which, in most US cities, usually means the minority and lower SES kids are in older, less safe buildings while the White and higher SES kids have newer buildings which are safer. Not just in school shootings, but in evacuating quickly in an emergency. It doesn't help any that anything that aids in quick egress in the case of a fire or other building emergency has to be considered a potential weakness in the case of an emergency from outside the building. (And can I just say that it says volumes that, after Columbine, I got tapped to research and write said plan for my school at the time as the music teacher, who wasn't in any way, shape or form qualified, because the district and state just wanted everyone to have a plan, and the principal knew I would at least research it and write something specific to our building vs photocopying someone else's and turning that in). 

 

The only schools I know of that actually are fully fenced and have someone controlling traffic in and out are private schools-and the only ones that actually seem to take it seriously are the Jewish and Islamic Day schools. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The only schools I know of that actually are fully fenced and have someone controlling traffic in and out are private schools-and the only ones that actually seem to take it seriously are the Jewish and Islamic Day schools. 

 

 

My highschool was fully fenced, with one entrance at the parking lot with a rolling gate, that was patrolled. However, the people patrolling were just regular staff members sitting in a golf cart. It was to catch kids skipping school more than anything. 

There was also another tiny parking lot all the way on the other side of the PE fields, by a tennis court that I think was shared between the school and the city. There was a pedestrian entrance there, not big enough for a car, and it was unmonitored. That was how I got back in when skipping school. Not sure if that is now monitored. 

 

[Scarlett]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:00 AM, ktgrok said:

 

……….people scream 2nd ammendment like it is freaking scripture handed down by God himself. but it isn't. 

 

This.  I am so sick of hearing about it.  I can’t deal with watching the news and even just reading a few posts on this thread has me dizzy with revolution. I highly recommend the circus of JD and AH to keep one’s mind off the news.  

[ktgrok]

[Scarlett]

My sister who lives in Houston…she and I don’t discuss subjects like this normally.  Yesterday though I mentioned how upsetting this all is and she agreed….and then railed against politicians getting in the middle of this saying something like, ‘what does Democrat or Republican have to do with a bunch of children murdered!’  
 

😳🤔.

 

I carefully said, ‘well, I think many people feel laws should be changed.’  
 

And then she railed about lack of security saying,  ‘why aren’t there metal detectors and gates!’  I said, again carefully, ‘ Schools can’t even afford textbooks, much less more security and WHY should they have to!  Why do schools have to be combat zones!’

And then we changed the subject.  
 

It is all too much.  

[ScoutTN]

16 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The only schools I know of that actually are fully fenced and have someone controlling traffic in and out are private schools-and the only ones that actually seem to take it seriously are the Jewish and Islamic Day schools. 

 

Yes, this. 
Every private school here has tightly controlled entrance. Only very small Christian schools do not have armed security. 

The Jewish schools do have the best security, no contest. They pay a lot for it. 
 

 

[Shelydon]

The police did not enter the building for 30-40 minutes.  A border patrol agent arrived on scene and entered and shot the gunman. 

https://www.ksat.com/news/2022/05/25/gunman-kills-19-children-2-adults-in-texas-school-rampage/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=ksat12&fbclid=IwAR0CLUL37B0dWicIJh7fXCwWs6_QIY6SfgC56D1mWqoKaFf6rJCo4Mjwu40

[1234]

I don’t know what to make of the stories and videos coming out regarding how the police acted. I also don’t know that we’ll ever get the truth but what I’ve seen and heard makes me very angry.

Unless big changes happen, we know we’re going to have more school shootings and I don’t get how anyone sends their kids to school knowing there’s a good possibility the police aren’t going to do what you’ll expect them to do. These teachers and kids are really on their own. 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I don’t know what to make of the stories and videos coming out regarding how the police acted. I also don’t know that we’ll ever get the truth but what I’ve seen and heard makes me very angry.

Unless big changes happen, we know we’re going to have more school shootings and I don’t get how anyone sends their kids to school knowing there’s a good possibility the police aren’t going to do what you’ll expect them to do. These teachers and kids are really on their own. 

I've seen that and I'm very upset about it all.  Originally reporting made me think the cops called for a tactical unit then spent the time waiting evacuating as many students as they could.  Now it looks more like they called for tactical, got out their own kids and spent the rest of the time holding parents back from getting their own kids out while teachers were left on their own to evacuate or hunker down or whatever.  

I DO not blame the cops for not going in after the guy.  They wouldn't have been successful without the right gear and more dead people helps no one.  But they could  have been helping with the evacuation and directing parents to the funeral home next door where a bunch of kids ended up anyway. Some of the video looks like cops on a power trip in the worst moments.  

[hshibley]

10 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

I don’t know what to make of the stories and videos coming out regarding how the police acted. I also don’t know that we’ll ever get the truth but what I’ve seen and heard makes me very angry.

Unless big changes happen, we know we’re going to have more school shootings and I don’t get how anyone sends their kids to school knowing there’s a good possibility the police aren’t going to do what you’ll expect them to do. These teachers and kids are really on their own. 

It sounds like a choice was made to sacrifice this one classroom to save others. It’s a terrible choice. Those poor parents outside the school knowing their kids are in that room. If this is the best that the police can do how/why does anyone think armed teachers can do any better. 

[Dmmetler]

35 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

My highschool was fully fenced, with one entrance at the parking lot with a rolling gate, that was patrolled. However, the people patrolling were just regular staff members sitting in a golf cart. It was to catch kids skipping school more than anything. 

There was also another tiny parking lot all the way on the other side of the PE fields, by a tennis court that I think was shared between the school and the city. There was a pedestrian entrance there, not big enough for a car, and it was unmonitored. That was how I got back in when skipping school. Not sure if that is now monitored. 

 

Here, it's fairly common for the main building to not be fenced, but the sports fields to be so they can charge admission. Even if they are, as some of the high schools are, it's not like you can't pick up a set of bolt cutters at Walmart along with that gun and bullets. And even if there's a campus security officer, how can one person be everywhere at once? 

 

I'm a music teacher. I have lousy eye-hand coordination and almost no depth perception. I'm finding myself  wondering whether hiding behind a piano would provide protection? How do I keep the door open for my protection when kids are in the room, but close and lock it to protect my students? Which is the greater risk-being accused of abusing a child, or my students being threatened by an outside shooter? Which is the greater risk-lower ventilation and risk of COVID, or increased access for bad guys with guns? It feels like every choice in my life has no good outcomes, only possible bad ones. And I don't feel lucky. 

[happi duck]

37 minutes ago, Shelydon said:

The police did not enter the building for 30-40 minutes.  A border patrol agent arrived on scene and entered and shot the gunman. 

https://www.ksat.com/news/2022/05/25/gunman-kills-19-children-2-adults-in-texas-school-rampage/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=ksat12&fbclid=IwAR0CLUL37B0dWicIJh7fXCwWs6_QIY6SfgC56D1mWqoKaFf6rJCo4Mjwu40

From the article: “The bottom line is law enforcement was there," McCraw said. “They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom.”

Contained in a classroom full of kids was a "win"??!!?  Sickening.

 

[Pam in CT]

re too overwhelmed to even try to speak

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

...I'm not responding or even liking many posts here because I just can’t. Like most of us, I’m clinging to the edge right now and allowing comments too deeply into my heart could send me into a spiraling despair. I’m angry more than anything and I simply can’t let my rage get the better of me; there is no landing space for it, just one more voice screaming into a cruel and heartless void, ignored by the powers that be.

A few hours after Sandy Hook, I had to go to the supermarket.

Fewer shoppers than usual. But beyond that, even accounting for fewer people, eerily quiet, eerily somber. A *lot* of tear tracks. A *lot* of struggling shaken barely-in-control faces. It's a small town; as invariably happens, I ran into a couple acquaintances. But we just... sort of shook our heads at each other. Helplessly.

No landing space for it.

Babies.

Whom we failed.

 

But here's the thing. Something happened in the aftermath. Grief and guilt at our failure to protect those kids rolled, slowly, into rage; and then rage into cold determination. Clergy led spontaneous vigils and parent groups; grieving people found one another and met up again for coffee; community centers and libraries around the state started sponsoring "community conversations."  I vividly remember one of those, where after several minutes of the usual polarized contention a big burly guy stood up and said something along the lines of

Quote

Look, I grew up with guns, I own guns, I hunt. I hunt with my friends, I've taught my kids to shoot, we go to ranges.

I don't need an automatic weapon to hunt deer. My guns are locked. I've taken training on how to handle weapons throughout my life. I am a responsible gun owner. I have kids in school. And I am here to tell you, responsible gun owners are not worried about safe storage, training requirements, licensing. We do it already.

That one guy *really* changed the climate of the room.

Slowly, people who had never been politically engaged before  started connecting with one another and with advocates. And slowly, learned a new language. Connecticut Against Gun Violence, which previously existed stalwart in the state-level legislative lane, greatly expanded. Several parents of the murdered kids founded Sandy Hook Promise, focused more on education in schools and community outreach.  Shannon Watts' Facebook outpouring of inchoate grief evolved into Moms Demand Action, a looser network that now has affiliates in 50 states advocating for both state-level and federal action. Many of us joined Everytown for Gun Safety, both a clearinghouse for research related to gun violence and also advocacy for state and federal candidates committed to supporting gun safety legislation.  Slowly, the grieving/ raging clueless koffeeklatch moms sorted ourselves between these lanes (me into CAGV).  Some of us learned how to submit testimony to our state legislators , how to follow the relevant committees through the legislative cycle, how to read a bill. Others focused on organizing groups of advocates to appear at key moments in that cycle and at particular legislators' town halls; others at leveraging larger marches, others at lining up speakers for community events and school programs. Everybody learned how to follow the vast clearinghouse of legislative summaries in Giffords Law Center.

And at the state level, it made a difference. Within Connecticut, Sandy Hook really was a tipping point. The center of political gravity shifted. Because BABIES for God's sake. It.Is.Our.Job.To.Protect.Kids. The original package of legislation passed with broad bipartisan support.

The NRA put -- I use this language guardedly but intentionally -- targets on the backs of those who supported it, particularly the Republicans courageous enough to support it. BUT THEY CONTINUED TO BE RE-ELECTED, because the center of political gravity had shifted. In the subsequent years I crossed the aisle to re-elect my state Rep and state Senator in large measure because both had supported the package.

 

It's not enough, because this isn't a problem that states can solve. Ammosexuals in other states are dead determined to impose their AmmoAgenda nationwide, to bring their UCC here, to ensure anybody at any gun fair can sell anything they want to anybody, to ensure law enforcement cannot track ghost guns, and etc.

 

But I am here to tell you: political gravity can shift.

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

My sister who lives in Houston…she and I don’t discuss subjects like this normally.  Yesterday though I mentioned how upsetting this all is and she agreed….and then railed against politicians getting in the middle of this saying something like, ‘what does Democrat or Republican have to do with a bunch of children murdered!’  
 

😳🤔.

 

I carefully said, ‘well, I think many people feel laws should be changed.’  
 

And then she railed about lack of security saying,  ‘why aren’t there metal detectors and gates!’  I said, again carefully, ‘ Schools can’t even afford textbooks, much less more security and WHY should they have to!  Why do schools have to be combat zones!’

And then we changed the subject.  
 

It is all too much.  

It is too much.

It is also a start.

Both at once.

 

Keep the faith.

[mathnerd]

35 minutes ago, hshibley said:

It sounds like a choice was made to sacrifice this one classroom to save others. It’s a terrible choice.

This is one interpretation of what happened. Other reports and videos from the scene show LE, armed to the teeth, tackling a concerned parent  whose kid was inside that room to the ground. These LE had their backs turned to the building with the shooter, doing crowd control on parents rather than storm the building. I don’t want to watch it because I am a parent and I cannot handle seeing another parent suffering like that. They waited for border patrol agents to drive from the border which  is 80 miles away to enter the classroom using a key that they got from an admin. These LE were neither trained nor willing to go in after the shooter. They were waiting for 90 minutes.

[hshibley]

1 minute ago, mathnerd said:

This is one interpretation of what happened. Other reports and videos from the scene show LE, armed to the teeth, tackling a concerned parent  whose kid was inside that room to the ground. These LE had their backs turned to the building with the shooter, doing crowd control on parents rather than storm the building. I don’t want to watch it because I am a parent and I cannot handle seeing another parent suffering like that. They waited for border patrol agents to drive from the border which  is 80 miles away to enter the classroom using a key that they got from an admin. These LE were neither trained nor willing to go in after the shooter. They were waiting for 90 minutes.

Exactly any parent would have gone in especially knowing your child is in there. You’d take the chance that the distraction stops the shooter and gives the police the chance to shoot/capture him. There’s no way it turns out worse than the 19 kids 1 teacher shot in that room. The blame for the shooting lies on the perpetrator however once the decision was made not to attempt to engage the shooter/enter the classroom the police have some responsibility for the decision they made. 
 

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

This. I had an argument with someone yesterday that said citizens should have access to the same weaponry as the government so that the government cannot oppress us. I pointed out that I’m hell no bc I’m not at all ever getting behind citizens having atomic weapons and machines guns and grenades and many other things.  They looked shocked like that hadn’t occurred to them. 🤦‍♀️

This is an education issue.  It should have been covered in AT LEAST 5th grade, 8th grade, and high school civics, and probably high school American History too.

[Katy]

I didn’t realize how many countries have a process like this. I thought NZ just banned guns. I didn’t realize they still have them with this process. 
 

 

[MEmama]

19 minutes ago, Katy said:

I didn’t realize how many countries have a process like this. I thought NZ just banned guns. I didn’t realize they still have them with this process. 
 

I didn’t know, either. I thought places like UK, Australia and NZ didn’t have guns almost at all; I’m honestly surprised to find out they do—and in large numbers.

Makes me all the more angry that our government here just throws up their hands and insists there’s nothing to be done.

Don't get me wrong— I would get rid of every.single.gun if I could and have been skeptical of further regulations that to me smack of bandaid fixes, but now I see that regulations have a chance to work given a reasonable populous and a willing government. I’ll file it away as a ray of hope for after I emerge from this darkness. 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

I didn’t know, either. I thought places like UK, Australia and NZ didn’t have guns almost at all; I’m honestly surprised to find out they do—and in large numbers.

That has been intentional.  The NRA, ammosexuals etc.  want us to think there is either free access or nothing.  Reasonable gun regulations have to be eliminated from the national conversation for their agenda to be carried out.  If the country finds out there are options for regulations and that regulations don't mean bans we might actually get somewhere.    

[Laura Corin]

14 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I didn’t know, either. I thought places like UK, Australia and NZ didn’t have guns almost at all; I’m honestly surprised to find out they do—and in large numbers.

Makes me all the more angry that our government here just throws up their hands and insists there’s nothing to be done.

Don't get me wrong— I would get rid of every.single.gun if I could and have been skeptical of further regulations that to me smack of bandaid fixes, but now I see that regulations have a chance to work given a reasonable populous and a willing government. I’ll file it away as a ray of hope for after I emerge from this darkness. 

Guns are tools for many people. Many UK farmers have them for vermin control, for example.

[happi duck]

I once read about another country (Japan?) and how they deal with guns reminded me of driving in the US.  We already have a system that requires a class and ongoing license renewal along with proof of insurance etc.  Why couldn't guns be more regulated?  Some states only sell liquor through state run stores, why couldn't guns go through a limited number of federal gun shops?  Many people live far from needed things like groceries and health care so who cares if someone has to travel for a gun?

[Pam in CT]

re plenty of other rights and items are "well-regulated"; why can't we similarly regulate the sale /ownership /use of guns

14 minutes ago, happi duck said:

I once read about another country (Japan?) and how they deal with guns reminded me of driving in the US.  We already have a system that requires a class and ongoing license renewal along with proof of insurance etc.  Why couldn't guns be more regulated?  Some states only sell liquor through state run stores, why couldn't guns go through a limited number of federal gun shops?  Many people live far from needed things like groceries and health care so who cares if someone has to travel for a gun?

This very good question does get back to lobbying power and Follow the Money.

 

[freesia]

12 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re plenty of other rights and items are "well-regulated"; why can't we similarly regulate the sale /ownership /use of guns

This very good question does get back to lobbying power and Follow the Money.

 

I do agree about money. But I do think that distrust of the government runs verrrryy deep in parts of the country. People sincerely believe on a deep level that disarming them will make governmental oppression more likely. Fundamentally that belief is what needs to change. I’m just not sure that a nation that fought for its independence from oppressive government will change its mind particularly if the folks they distrust the most are the ones pushing it. Add to that that folks who grow up with guns (like dh whose family lived off the meat they shot) often have a casual cultural acceptance of guns. ( Although he is in favor of gun safes and stronger rules for getting guns.)

 

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Joker2 said:

I don’t know what to make of the stories and videos coming out regarding how the police acted. I also don’t know that we’ll ever get the truth but what I’ve seen and heard makes me very angry.

Unless big changes happen, we know we’re going to have more school shootings and I don’t get how anyone sends their kids to school knowing there’s a good possibility the police aren’t going to do what you’ll expect them to do. These teachers and kids are really on their own. 

Sadly, knowing exactly how little training local LEO's have, I have no doubt they would be even less effective in an active shooter situation. I don't know the background of the border patrol agent, but we have a lot of army/marine veterans and national guardsmen serving in this capacity, and they have a TON more training and are prepped for such things along with regular marksmanship tests that are more difficult than anything state police academy offers. So it isn't shocking to me. 

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, happi duck said:

From the article: “The bottom line is law enforcement was there," McCraw said. “They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom.”

Contained in a classroom full of kids was a "win"??!!?  Sickening.

 

W.t.f. did I just read?????? There aren't words for this.

[Sneezyone]

13 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Important line… 

“What does keep schools safe is having more well trained mental health counselors, social workers, and alternative resolution dispute programs,”

And I hate hearing that there’s no money for it, because there could be.  It’s a choice we’re making.  

This would be the social and emotional learning/training that FL seeks to ban.

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Sadly, knowing exactly how little training local LEO's have, I have no doubt they would be even less effective in an active shooter situation. I don't know the background of the border patrol agent, but we have a lot of army/marine veterans and national guardsmen serving in this capacity, and they have a TON more training and are prepped for such things along with regular marksmanship tests that are more difficult than anything state police academy offers. So it isn't shocking to me. 

What’s shocking to me is that they didn’t do more to help evacuate the other kids.  I could have sworn I read that they were busy breaking windows and helping children in other parts of the school escape.   Instead to learn they spent the time tackling parents?  
 

 

[Sneezyone]

9 hours ago, lewelma said:

Because it is in the constitution, in the end it is the Supreme Court that decides how the 2nd amendment will be interpreted. 

And our SCOTUS is currently dominated by the minority position in the US.

[Corraleno]

From the Fort Worth Star Telegram:

"According to a Fort Worth schools employee, a Tarrant County Sheriff’s Office deputy presented during a career day event on Wednesday morning at E.M. Daggett Elementary School. The presentation appeared to include pictures of AR-15 rifles, according to a photo shared with the Star-Telegram. In the photo, an image of a poster titled “A Liberal’s Guide to the Deadly AR-15” is highlighted on Google Images."

This is the image they are referring to, it's a sarcastic poster mocking ignorant "liberals" for thinking AR-15s are dangerous — the labels say things like the scope lets people "see through walls," there's a button that turns it into a fully automatic weapon, etc.

A poster mocking the idea that AR-15s are dangerous was shown to elementary school children, the day after 19 children in a town a few miles away were slaughtered with that same weapon. 

[Sneezyone]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

This. I had an argument with someone yesterday that said citizens should have access to the same weaponry as the government so that the government cannot oppress us. I pointed out that I’m hell no bc I’m not at all ever getting behind citizens having atomic weapons and machines guns and grenades and many other things.  They looked shocked like that hadn’t occurred to them. 🤦‍♀️

I believe you. Totally. Ammosexuals refuse to consider the logical ends/absurdity of no regulation. They are so far gone tho that they think the military rifles they own/covet and exchange freely and without required background checks fall within the category of normal, civilian arms. They’re delusional. Current military tech does not belong in civilian hands.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

From the Fort Worth Star Telegram:

"According to a Fort Worth schools employee, a Tarrant County Sheriff’s Office deputy presented during a career day event on Wednesday morning at E.M. Daggett Elementary School. The presentation appeared to include pictures of AR-15 rifles, according to a photo shared with the Star-Telegram. In the photo, an image of a poster titled “A Liberal’s Guide to the Deadly AR-15” is highlighted on Google Images."

This is the image they are referring to, it's a sarcastic poster mocking ignorant "liberals" for thinking AR-15s are dangerous — the labels say things like the scope lets people "see through walls," there's a button that turns it into a fully automatic weapon, etc.

A poster mocking the idea that AR-15s are dangerous was shown to elementary school children, the day after 19 children in a town a few miles away were slaughtered with that same weapon. 

If parents aren’t showing up at the next school board meeting, SHAME ON THEM.

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I didn’t realize how many countries have a process like this. I thought NZ just banned guns. I didn’t realize they still have them with this process. 
 

 

I admit I am not the best-educated on this topic, but I thought it varied by state.  In my state, you cannot purchase and take a gun home the same day.  You need a FOID card to buy a gun, ammunition, etc.  A class is required for conceal/carry I believe. Having improved processes unfortunately wouldn't eliminate all gun-related incidents, but it would help.  

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Sadly, knowing exactly how little training local LEO's have, I have no doubt they would be even less effective in an active shooter situation. I don't know the background of the border patrol agent, but we have a lot of army/marine veterans and national guardsmen serving in this capacity, and they have a TON more training and are prepped for such things along with regular marksmanship tests that are more difficult than anything state police academy offers. So it isn't shocking to me. 

My DH is in the military and trains with guns regularly. He’s an excellent shot by all accounts. We have no guns in our home. We will never have guns in our home. We’ve never needed a gun in our home.

[Ting Tang]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If parents aren’t showing up at the next school board meeting, SHAME ON THEM.

Sadly, some school boards and parents wouldn't be offended by this. It obviously has no place in a school.  I think the poster makes it look scary, but I am also terrified of guns.  This is what I mean by a violent culture.  I know not everyone is this way, but this in my mind is intimidation and threatening.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Pam in CT]

re [non]-conversation about gun safety legislation being caught up with wider "distrust of government"

3 minutes ago, freesia said:

I do agree about money. But I do think that distrust of the government runs verrrryy deep in parts of the country. People sincerely believe on a deep level that disarming them will make governmental oppression more likely. Fundamentally that belief is what needs to change. I’m just not sure that a nation that fought for its independence from oppressive government will change its mind particularly if the folks they distrust the most are the ones pushing it. Add to that that folks who grow up with guns (like dh whose family lived off the meat they shot) often have a casual cultural acceptance of guns. ( Although he is in favor of gun safes and stronger rules for getting guns.)

I think I understand what you're getting at; and if so I agree that our [non]-conversation about gun fatalities (through violence, accident and suicide -- safe storage has substantially broader implications than "just" mass shootings) reflects a broader polarization about the proper role of government in society.

I actually don't see it as trust / mistrust of government. It's often framed that way, but many of the precise same legislators who proclaim adherence to "small government" on gun policy and environmental regulations, and "states' rights" on insurance and health matters, are simultaneously confident that state governments can and should micromanage school reading lists and teachers' interactions with students, and women's contraception choices, and private companies' decisions on content Terms; and that federal policy can and should override the legislation of states like mine that impose environmental or safety or financial disclosure requirements that they deem inadvisable.

It's not really "distrust of government" as an across-the-board principle, more "I like and trust government when it's using its power to do what I want; otherwise meh."  Which is OTOH understandable; I feel that way myself, LOL.

But I don't think it makes any sense to take at face value legislators who on Monday pass sweeping content bans on what picture book titles teachers can teach in elementary schools, and on Wednesday which contraception options women will be allowed to use; and then on Friday say we can't trust government to establish sensible gun policy.

[I understand that people do use that frame to resist even starting the non-conversation. I guess what I'm trying to say is, we have to get better at working through that rhetoric as rhetoric. It's a cloak over the issue, which affects our ability to get to the issue, but it isn't, itself, the issue.]

 

And it comes back around: lobbying power and Follow the Money *absolutely* is part of the reason for the polarization and labeling around What is the Proper Role of Government in Moving Toward a More Perfect Union. Lobbying power and Follow the Money *absolutely* is part of the reason gun policy here is viewed in binary all-or-nothing Good v Evil terms. 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Sadly, some school boards and parents wouldn't be offended by this. It obviously has no place in a school.  I think the poster make it look scary, but I am also terrified of guns.  

Some won’t be upset but most will. Those of us who are horrified by ammosexuality have allowed them to dominate the public sphere for far too long. A related example, our district heard ONLY from parents who wanted to remove mask mandates until they reversed their science-led process, at which point people came out of the woodwork to complain. They were shocked by the backlash and reversed course in a week. The VAST MAJORITY of Americans do not support this stuff but nothing will change until *all* life issues are treated with equal gravity and people use their voices and vote to speak up.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[TexasProud]

20 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

What’s shocking to me is that they didn’t do more to help evacuate the other kids.  I could have sworn I read that they were busy breaking windows and helping children in other parts of the school escape.   Instead to learn they spent the time tackling parents?  
 

 

Ok, let's take a breath.  Honestly, I wish they would have news blackouts and report information maybe once a week. We do not know and it is so easy to jump to conclusions. I would advise waiting at least 6 months before passing such a judgement. May or may not be true. 

[1234]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, let's take a breath.  Honestly, I wish they would have news blackouts and report information maybe once a week. We do not know and it is so easy to jump to conclusions. I would advise waiting at least 6 months before passing such a judgement. May or may not be true. 

There are actual videos of how the police interacted with the parents while the shooting was happening.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, let's take a breath.  Honestly, I wish they would have news blackouts and report information maybe once a week. We do not know and it is so easy to jump to conclusions. I would advise waiting at least 6 months before passing such a judgement. May or may not be true. 

Did we wait 6 months after 9/11 to breathe? We have had 9/11 every year for decades WRT gun violence.

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, let's take a breath.  Honestly, I wish they would have news blackouts and report information maybe once a week. We do not know and it is so easy to jump to conclusions. I would advise waiting at least 6 months before passing such a judgement. May or may not be true. 

There is video. The parents that were there are speaking out and releasing their cell phone footage.  You can wait for 6 months of spin and lawyerly statements.  
 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Ting Tang]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Some won’t be upset but most will. Those of us who are horrified by ammosexuality have allowed them to dominate the public sphere for far too long. A related example, our district heard ONLY from parents who wanted to remove mask mandates until they reversed their science-led process, at which point people came out of the woodwork to complain. They were shocked by the backlash and reversed course in a week. The VAST MAJORITY of Americans do not support this stuff but nothing will change until *all* life issues are treated with equal gravity.

We have a horrid school board, and similar things happened with Covid safety protocols.  They decided not to rehire one of the teachers because the teacher expressed his opinion on Covid safety.  The school has a high teacher turnover rate and is severely underperforming.  I blame the school board, not the teachers. In fact, I feel sorry for any teacher that steps foot in that school.  They were feeding the children leaded water for years yet feel they can be an authority on pandemic health.  I am pretty sure they'd laugh at this poster.  😞

 

[TexasProud]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Did we wait 6 months after 9/11 to breathe? We have had 9/11 every year for decades WRT gun violence.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying we breathe and wait to pass red flag laws, age limits, etc. No, we need to do that ASAP.  I think we need to wait on judging law enforcement for what they did or didn't do until we get outside investigation. So many factors as to what did or didn't happen. 

[Katy]

25 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I admit I am not the best-educated on this topic, but I thought it varied by state.  In my state, you cannot purchase and take a gun home the same day.  You need a FOID card to buy a gun, ammunition, etc.  A class is required for conceal/carry I believe. Having improved processes unfortunately wouldn't eliminate all gun-related incidents, but it would help.  

The process does vary by state, and Texas just relaxed their laws significantly.  But to my knowledge NO state requires a long incensing process that includes reference and home safety checks. At most they do a 3 day federal background check. They may require more for concealed carry.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying we breathe and wait to pass red flag laws, age limits, etc. No, we need to do that ASAP.  I think we need to wait on judging law enforcement for what they did or didn't do until we get outside investigation. So many factors as to what did or didn't happen. 

I did misunderstand. Thx. I can appreciate the need to know more. Having said that, I think part of the reason we know so little is because TX officials already know the goings on won’t support their preferred narratives. There WERE armed ‘good guys’ and it wasn’t enough. The school had a plan. The doors locked from the inside. All of that was used AGAINST innocents. What they REFUSE to address is the guns/ammo themselves.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Terabith]

I'm seeing a report on twitter that the husband of one of the teachers who was killed, Joe Garcia, has died of a fatal heart attack.  The couple had four children.  

[Ting Tang]

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

The process does vary by state, and Texas just relaxed their laws significantly.  But to my knowledge NO state requires a long incensing process that includes reference and home safety checks. At most they do a 3 day federal background check. They may require more for concealed carry.

Oh yeah, certain parts of this process do not exist.  They have been proposed, but they do not exist.  I don't understand relaxing laws, especially in that state with its history.

[Heartstrings]

14 minutes ago, Katy said:

The process does vary by state, and Texas just relaxed their laws significantly.  But to my knowledge NO state requires a long incensing process that includes reference and home safety checks. At most they do a 3 day federal background check. They may require more for concealed carry.

In Arkansas where I am the background check can take UP TO 3 days.  Usually it’s instant, especially if you are clean.  The delay is dependent on the FBI.  They can take UP TO 3 days. Super fun fact-if they don’t get back in 3 days the purchase goes through anyway.  So you can buy the gun w/no background check if the FBI takes too long.  And they can’t take it back after that if you fail. Granted that’s rare, but it can and does happen.   Its fun living in the South.
 

Concealed carry in AR is $50 plus a night or two class.  My mother got one, she doesn’t know how to load her gun.   
 

But yes, where I am it took us 30 minutes last time we bought a gun.  Not much more hassle than buying a bottle of wine honestly.  
 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Idalou]

We need to be aware of the NSSF, the lobbying arm of gun makers and gun retailers. They spend more on lobbying against any gun legislation in DC, I think, than the NRA. The NRAhas been weakened recently. They are the face of today's corporate gun lobby. And sadly enough, they are headquartered in Newtown, CT

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/national-shooting-sports-foundation/summary?id=D000054336

Edited May 26, 2022 by Idalou

[Idalou]

17 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying we breathe and wait to pass red flag laws, age limits, etc. No, we need to do that ASAP.  I think we need to wait on judging law enforcement for what they did or didn't do until we get outside investigation. So many factors as to what did or didn't happen. 

Do you honestly think there will be any outside investigation?? Dream on

Edited May 26, 2022 by Idalou

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, Idalou said:

Do you honestly think there will be any outside investigation?? Dream on

FBI is investigating. Ok, need to get off this thread. People are angry. I get that. Can't handle this or the news. Time for an internet break.