Oscars/Will Smith

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I think she looks amazing!

But if she was hurt by Chris Rock’s joke, maybe she’s not really “owning” that look. If she was, there would have been no reason for Will Smith to attack Chris Rock.

That’s why I’m asking what else she can do, because there are always going to be mean people out there, and a hairless woman is usually going to be noticed, so if my suggestion that she cover her head or wear a wig to avoid unwanted attention is a terrible and ableist idea, what should she do? 

I really want to know. I would like to be more informed about this if I’m really being offensive.

Well again ... like an obese person ... sometimes one just hopes that nobody is mean enough to go there.  Or that there's enough public pressure to be decent that he wouldn't risk going there.

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well again ... like an obese person ... sometimes one just hopes that nobody is mean enough to go there.  Or that there's enough public pressure to be decent that he wouldn't risk going there.

Yeah, but people are going to go there, whether  we like it or not. So the responsibility for dealing with it, unfortunately, falls on the victim. And that’s why I’m wondering what people think Jada Smith should do if she feels that she can’t emotionally handle being joked about. How does she empower herself so she doesn’t feel like a victim?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Catwoman

[KSera]

21 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Honest question— what should Jada Smith do, if she knows she will be upset when someone makes an unkind comment about her lack of hair? How should she handle it? 

She can’t stop people from saying whatever they want to say, so what would you suggest that she do in order to feel more comfortable and confident? Apparently my suggestions are ableist, so I’m honestly wondering how you and @KSera would advise her to handle it. 

Please don’t think I’m being snarky— I genuinely want to know.

 

My issue honestly has little to do with what Jada should do. She seems to handle it decently (her husband, not so much). Honestly, I don't follow celebrity stuff and know very little about them. My issue has been with the statements that people with medical hair loss should keep their heads covered if they don't like comments about it or that they aren't allowed to feel sensitive about it. There is nothing I think Jada specifically should do differently. I think people outside of weird celebrity roast rituals should be more kind and understanding to people and not say that people with medical conditions or differences should cover them up if they can't handle other people being unkind about them. I don't know when we switched to having it be the responsibility of the one being treated poorly to be the one to change their behavior.

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Pert near half the black women in America don’t/can’t grow and wear their hair the way others do. It’s a challenge, to be sure. Not a disability.

Yep, agree. And they shouldn't have to cover their hair up if they don't want to hear rude people say mean things about it.

[SKL]

Another thing I think some people may be missing.

When someone with a disorder decides to be open in public about it, it's usually because she's trying to get others used to the idea that we can see this in public and be accepting and respectful and treat the person exactly the same as everyone else.

That does not translate to "let's point it out and satirize it."  Quite the opposite.

I have a friend with vitiligo on her limbs, including her hands.  She doesn't cover her hands.  Does that mean she's fair game to be called out by name in a comedy act?  I can't imagine how awful that would feel, but also, I can't imagine anyone mean enough to do such a thing.

[Danae]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Yeah, but people are going to go there, whether  we like it or not. So the responsibility for dealing with it, unfortunately, falls on the victim. And that’s why I’m wondering what people think Jada Smith should do if she feels that she can’t emotionally handle being joked about. How does she empower herself so she doesn’t feel like a victim?

Cat, I think you’re trying really hard here but missing the point.  The offensive bit in what you’ve said is not the specifics of your suggestion.  The people who disagree with you aren’t going to tell you what they think she should do, because NOT telling her what to do is the point.  

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Yeah, but people are going to go there, whether  we like it or not. So the responsibility for dealing with it, unfortunately, falls on the victim. And that’s why I’m wondering what people think Jada Smith should do if she feels that she can’t emotionally handle being joked about. How does she empower herself so she doesn’t feel like a victim?

I completely disagree.  I think we've come a long way from the time people could get away with fat jokes, especially those that clearly call out a specific obese individual who is sitting right there. 

What people do if they feel like they can't take it is they stay home.  Which is every kind of wrong.

[Catwoman]

Just now, KSera said:

My issue honestly has little to do with what Jada should do. She seems to handle it decently (her husband, not so much). Honestly, I don't follow celebrity stuff and know very little about them. My issue has been with the statements that people with medical hair loss should keep their heads covered if they don't like comments about it or that they aren't allowed to feel sensitive about it. There is nothing I think Jada specifically should do differently. I think people outside of weird celebrity roast rituals should be more kind and understanding to people and not say that people with medical conditions or differences should cover them up if they can't handle other people being unkind about them. I don't know when we switched to having it be the responsibility of the one being treated poorly to be the one to change their behavior.

Yep, agree. And they shouldn't have to cover their hair up if they don't want to hear rude people say mean things about it.

Unfortunately, though, the reality is that the one being treated poorly is stuck with the responsibility of figuring out how to empower themselves so they can deal with the unkindness. The unkind people probably aren’t going to change. 

In a perfect world, no one would ever be mocked, but this world is far from perfect, so I’m still wondering what Jada Smith can do to make herself feel confident enough to face the mean comments and not be hurt by them, if she doesn’t want to wear a wig to avoid being singled out, yet she can’t emotionally handle people commenting on her bare head. 

[Corraleno]

27 minutes ago, Amy in NH said:

Aside from the ability to grow hair and wear it in the way others do, and the resulting psychosocial consequences such as depression and anxiety.

Nearly all the men in my family have male pattern baldness. My younger brother was mostly bald by his 30s — unable to "grow hair and wear it in the way" that non-bald men do. I'm sure they would be very surprised to learn that they are considered disabled because of their lack of hair. Is acne (the inability to produce the hormones and other biochemicals necessary to have clear skin) also a disability? It can definitely cause psychosocial consequences such as depression and anxiety. Is being shorter than normal a disability? How about having a noticeable birthmark? 

Having a minor cosmetic issue is not a disability, even if the person is upset or sensitive about it. Suggesting that people who disagree with you on this issue lack the self-awareness to confront their "able-list biases" is really a stretch.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another thing I think some people may be missing.

When someone with a disorder decides to be open in public about it, it's usually because she's trying to get others used to the idea that we can see this in public and be accepting and respectful and treat the person exactly the same as everyone else.

That does not translate to "let's point it out and satirize it."  Quite the opposite.

I have a friend with vitiligo on her limbs, including her hands.  She doesn't cover her hands.  Does that mean she's fair game to be called out by name in a comedy act?  I can't imagine how awful that would feel, but also, I can't imagine anyone mean enough to do such a thing.

That would be true of most people. This family is…different. The KimYe analogy is apt here. They actually invite attention and discussion. There’s a whole talk show.

 

12 minutes ago, KSera said:

My issue honestly has little to do with what Jada should do. She seems to handle it decently (her husband, not so much). Honestly, I don't follow celebrity stuff and know very little about them. My issue has been with the statements that people with medical hair loss should keep their heads covered if they don't like comments about it or that they aren't allowed to feel sensitive about it. There is nothing I think Jada specifically should do differently. I think people outside of weird celebrity roast rituals should be more kind and understanding to people and not say that people with medical conditions or differences should cover them up if they can't handle other people being unkind about them. I don't know when we switched to having it be the responsibility of the one being treated poorly to be the one to change their behavior.

Yep, agree. And they shouldn't have to cover their hair up if they don't want to hear rude people say mean things about it.

I have agreed she doesn’t need to cover up. I simply disagree that what was said was rude. In the pantheon of cruel jokes, this doesn’t even register.

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

My issue honestly has little to do with what Jada should do. She seems to handle it decently (her husband, not so much). Honestly, I don't follow celebrity stuff and know very little about them. My issue has been with the statements that people with medical hair loss should keep their heads covered if they don't like comments about it or that they aren't allowed to feel sensitive about it. There is nothing I think Jada specifically should do differently. I think people outside of weird celebrity roast rituals should be more kind and understanding to people and not say that people with medical conditions or differences should cover them up if they can't handle other people being unkind about them. I don't know when we switched to having it be the responsibility of the one being treated poorly to be the one to change their behavior.

Yep, agree. And they shouldn't have to cover their hair up if they don't want to hear rude people say mean things about it.

I liked some of those comments, and I'm happy to explain why. I wouldn't make a negative personal remark about someone in real life.  But people I meet in real life don't make a career out of making every aspect of their lives something for public consumption.  I've only seen a few episodes of Jada's show, but even those were too much for me. When they choose to make every (even offensive) aspect of their lives public to increase their fame, power, relevance, and money, they're asking for personal comments in a way the random person you know in real life is not.

Jada looked amazing.  I honestly thought her hair was a stunning style statement because I had no idea about the diagnosis until after the slap. But she's well aware that most of her job is handling a ridiculous amount of extremely personal judgment with grace. If she couldn't handle that judgment she wouldn't have started her show. Because even with the 2-3 episodes I watched, it is filled with hate and judgment and the types of conversation we can rarely have even on the board without a moderator shutting it down. Jada likes controversy.  She likes playing with power.  She looked f'ing amazing and she knew it.   So no, I seriously doubt she was self conscious about her hair, even if she initially grimaced at a personal joke.

Jada specifically has the money to look any way she wants and a whole team of people to make sure she does.  If SHE wanted to keep it a secret she could.  She chose to exploit her story rather than hide it.  That's fine. But judging people for commenting on things she chose to exploit is a stretch.

A very ridiculously public figure making very public choices about decisions she makes for public consumption is completely different than say, my college friend with allopecia who chose to wear a wig most of the time but took it off when she worked a summer job at a factory. I absolutely don't think anyone had the right to say anything mean about her.

I also don't think Chris or anyone else was saying anything mean about Jada.  But there is zero chance she hasn't had a lot of mean comments since then as a reaction to her husband's  behavior.

[1234]

I will be honest and say based on the stuff WS and JPS put out there voluntarily, I wouldn’t think a joke about hair/hair loss would be a big deal.

I still think the joke was awful (and I really dislike many comedians today) but maybe the couple in question should give people a list of what is and isn’t acceptable at this point because they have made it seem like nothing is off limits.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Joker2

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Is acne (the inability to produce the hormones and other biochemicals necessary to have clear skin) also a disability? It can definitely cause psychosocial consequences such as depression and anxiety. Is being shorter than normal a disability? How about having a noticeable birthmark? 

Severe Acne is a pretty good analogy to hair loss (except there are better treatments for the former than the latter). Hopefully we wouldn’t suggest that it’s open season on making comments about people’s acne because they would cover it up if they were sensitive about it. 

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I simply disagree that what was said was rude. In the pantheon of cruel jokes, this doesn’t even register.

I do agree with this. My disappointment through this has been about the comments about hair loss being no big deal and that if it bothered someone they would wear a wig, and if they don’t, they should expect comments and handle them with grace. 
 

Again, I don’t know anything about the Smith family or their show or anything else. The more I’m reading in this thread, the more I’m thinking that there are specific factors about them and the way they conduct their lives that predispose people to probably feel the way they do on this particular issue.

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

Severe Acne is a pretty good analogy to hair loss (except there are better treatments for the former than the latter). Hopefully we wouldn’t suggest that it’s open season on making comments about people’s acne because they would cover it up if they were sensitive about it. 

I do agree with this. My disappointment through this has been about the comments about hair loss being no big deal and that if it bothered someone they would wear a wig, and if they don’t, they should expect comments and handle them with grace. 
 

Again, I don’t know anything about the Smith family or their show or anything else. The more I’m reading in this thread, the more I’m thinking that there are specific factors about them and the way they conduct their lives that predispose people to probably feel the way they do on this particular issue.

You should probably watch a couple episodes of Red Table Talk. You may walk away with an entirely new perspective on the Smiths. 😉 

I’m so sorry if I came across as though I thought hair loss was no big deal — I think it must be devastating and extremely difficult to deal with. My question has been about how someone like Jada Smith, who is constantly in the public eye, can deal with negative comments if they are emotionally upsetting for her.

I didn’t mean that she should have to wear a wig or a head covering — I was just thinking that it might make her life easier if she gets upset when she feels that people are staring at her head, or if she gets upset when someone makes a comment. Personally, I think she looks better without hair than she did with it, but now that I know she has alopecia, it makes me sad to know that she can’t grow it back. I had just thought she cut her hair very short as a dramatic fashion statement, because she has had some pretty wild hairstyles in the past.

[Melissa Louise]

Hair loss, especially but not only for women, is a tough thing to deal with. 

Joking about it can be tasteless and even hurtful.  That's a long way from what I'm seeing described (not on this thread) as a 'verbal assault'.

I'm disgusted by the whole thing, including the bystanders, and I think it's been illustrative of a kind of cultural rot in those big money making industries. Makes me never want to go to the cinema again, tbh. I don't want to support an industry that parties with a man who behaves like WS, after that behaviour has just played out in front of their own eyes. 

 

 

[SoCal_Bear]

He did finally really apologized publicly, but I imagine the PR machine had a lot to do with this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CbqmaY1p7Pz/?hl=en

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I think she looks amazing!

But if she was hurt by Chris Rock’s joke, maybe she’s not really “owning” that look. If she was, there would have been no reason for Will Smith to attack Chris Rock.

That’s why I’m asking what else she can do, because there are always going to be mean people out there, and a hairless woman is usually going to be noticed, so if my suggestion that she cover her head or wear a wig to avoid unwanted attention is a terrible and ableist idea, what should she do? 

I really want to know. I would like to be more informed about this if I’m really being offensive.

I don’t think there’s a good solution. Wigs are uncomfortable, scarves draw more attention than a shaved head. Some conditions are just noticeable by nature and that’s why socially we consider it unacceptable to joke about illness or disability. The person dealing with the condition has enough to worry about so we expect society to follow polite rules and not put more on the person. If he genuinely didn’t know, then fair enough it was an unfortunate mistake and hopefully he’ll be more careful in future. If he did know he crossed that line.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I completely disagree.  I think we've come a long way from the time people could get away with fat jokes, especially those that clearly call out a specific obese individual who is sitting right there. 

What people do if they feel like they can't take it is they stay home.  Which is every kind of wrong.

I disagree. We recently had as our leader someone who mocked disabled people, decorated veterans, war heroes, all sorts of women, etc. etc. A not insignificant chunk of our population applauded it and a bigger group accepted it as a means to an end.

People can just ignore celebrities of all types if they don’t care or aren’t interested, like me, and never have to listen to a single comedian ever. But our elected officials can’t be ignored. Their actions and behavior effects all of us. So no, I don’t agree we have come a long way. Perhaps we previously had made progress, but the toxic combo of social media, siloed click bait media, and the ends justify the means morality has taken us to a place I’m not sure we as a society will ever recover from. Being rude, crude, arrogant, disrespectful, making fun of people, and continually lying clearly pays great dividends. That is the message we have loudly and clearly sent our young people.

 

[popmom]

This thread wasn’t what I was expecting. And it didn’t even occur to me until 3/4 through that I should have an opinion on this. I have trichotillomania. I’ve pulled out my eyelashes and eyebrows since elementary school, so I basically have none left. My eyes were completely bald all throughout school. I have been mercilessly questioned, made fun of. I have felt all the shame that can be felt—especially since my narc mother scapegoated me because of it. So home wasn’t even safe. Why don’t I feel more sympathetic to Jada? I just don’t at all. 
 

Honestly, I was expecting this thread to be about race. I have an acquaintance/friend from years ago who adopted 2 black sons after she married. She and her husband are white. She posted today…”White friends, let’s sit the WS/CR conversation out.” This is a woman who led my girls’ small group in our San Antonio church years ago, and she knows us well. One of my daughters (who happens to lean very liberal fwiw) pushed back saying she didn’t think this was about race or politics, and this woman unfriended/blocked all of us. So that’s the unfortunate lens I’m viewing this through today. My daughters lost a connection with a mentor they had been close to. Such a strange turn of events. It just left me very perplexed and not sure how to think about the situation.

Edited March 29, 2022 by popmom

[SKL]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

This thread wasn’t what I was expecting. And it didn’t even occur to me until 3/4 through that I should have an opinion on this. I have trichotillomania. I’ve pulled out my eyelashes and eyebrows since elementary school, so I basically have none left. My eyes were completely bald all throughout school. I have been mercilessly questioned, made fun of. I have felt all the shame that can be felt—especially since my narc mother scapegoated me because of it. So home wasn’t even safe. Why don’t I feel more sympathetic to Jada? I just don’t at all. 
 

Honestly, I was expecting this thread to be about race. I have an acquaintance/friend from years ago who adopted 2 black sons after she married. She and her husband are white. She posted today…”White friends, let’s sit the WS/CR conversation out.” This is a woman who led my girls’ small group in our San Antonio church years ago, and she knows us well. One of my daughters (who happens to lean very liberal fwiw) pushed back saying she didn’t think this was about race or politics, and this woman unfriended/blocked all of us. So that’s the unfortunate lens I’m viewing this through today. My daughters lost a connection with a mentor they had been close to. Such a strange turn of events. It just left me very perplexed and not sure how to think about the situation.

Yeah I wouldn't have thought it was about race either.  The only race reference I saw was in a long quote above that someone copied from somewhere else.

[DawnM]

I am sorry, I don't have time to read through the thread, so if this has been posted, I apologize for saying it again.

I just found out about this whole hullabaloo last night and have been watching the recap and listening to various opinions on it.

And then there is this clip on Will Smith making jokes publicly about a bald guy and even when the guy gets upset Will keeps going and says, "It's a joke!"

https://www.newsweek.com/will-smith-cracks-bald-joke-video-resurfaced-after-chris-rock-slap-1692716

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I hadn’t considered it a race thing before, and maybe I am viewing it through the wrong lens. This is written by Ally Henny, a Black writer and speaker who talks about culture and race.  You can see it on her Facebook page and the comments are really interesting especially since I am white and most of the commentators are Black(and strongly in defense of WS). I neither agree or disagree personally, but I am open to learning.  So maybe there is a race element I had not considered.   
As I said, I am open to learning.

——

What a lot of y’all are absolutely **failing** to understand about the Will Smith situation is that Chris Rock could’ve **easily** gotten hit and/or cussed out by any member of Jada’s family, any one of her close, Black friends, or even by Jada herself. 

A lot of y’all are looking at this from the perspective of whiteness. Y’all are using whiteness framed cultural norms, gender roles, and gender performance expectations to analyze this situation and it falls ten miles short. 

Will slapping Chris Rock wasn’t a husband running to rescue a damsel in distress. Jada isn’t some poor defenseless shrinking violet that her big bold husband rushed in on his trusty steed to defend. This isn’t “both men” showing toxic masculinity. 

Y’all out here forgetting, or not realizing, that most Black families are actually matriarchal and that literally *anyone* will take up for the women in their family including, but not limited to, other women. Like Chris Rock better be thankful it wasn’t Gammy (Jada mama) who ran up on him. 

Additionally, the way that *I* was socialized is that you don’t let people disrespect your family in front of you. Will might’ve laughed at first for a variety of reasons. But I can guarantee that he sensed something in Jada that made him act. I’ve been with my companion for twenty years, and I can *tell* his feelings sometimes better than he can. You’re with somebody that long and you know when something is bothering them. 

Maybe Will *was* acting out of a toxically masculine impulse, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be that. There’s room for nuance here. 

Furthermore, I am tired of seeing women and femmes of whiteness talk about Will Smith through their lenses of patriarchy and toxic masculinity. I don’t know how, but a lot of y’all have managed to somehow make this about yourselves when it ain’t. Y’all want to cast Jada in woman of pallor terms that don’t work here. 

We had a whole week of misogynoir playing in Black women’s faces and everybody saying “protect Black women” and “no one is more disrespected than Black women, poor black women.” Everybody wants to lament and fake boo-hoo about Black women being mistreated, but then when somebody makes an attempt to protect a Black woman the moment she was disrespected suddenly he didn’t do it right. 

Black women *always* have to take up for ourselves. I cannot tell you the number of times I have been disrespected to my face and nobody but me saw fit to say something. It hurts to always have to be your own defender and champion all the time. I have been in so many situations where I wished someone would speak up on my behalf instead of me having to assume all the risk and weight of standing up for myself. 

If Jada had stood up for herself cussed Chris Rock out, some of y’all would’ve called Will weak for just sitting there. 

Finally, I’m also tired of all of the “violence isn’t the answer” takes. What Chris Rock said was violent. His words were violent on multiple levels: ableism, misogynoir, and playing in front of Dwight Mahn like that. That lil slap was the least violent part of the incident.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Katy]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

I am sorry, I don't have time to read through the thread, so if this has been posted, I apologize for saying it again.

I just found out about this whole hullabaloo last night and have been watching the recap and listening to various opinions on it.

And then there is this clip on Will Smith making jokes publicly about a bald guy and even when the guy gets upset Will keeps going and says, "It's a joke!"

https://www.newsweek.com/will-smith-cracks-bald-joke-video-resurfaced-after-chris-rock-slap-1692716

IDK if Will making a joke in 1991 is the same as CR doing it today. 

[Katy]

6 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I hadn’t considered it a race thing before, and maybe I am viewing it through the wrong lens. This is written by Ally Henny, a Black writer and speaker who talks about culture and race.  You can see it on her Facebook page and the comments are really interesting especially since I am white and most of the commentators are Black(and strongly in defense of WS). I neither agree or disagree personally, but I am open to learning.  So maybe there is a race element I had not considered.   
As I said, I am open to learning.

——

What a lot of y’all are absolutely **failing** to understand about the Will Smith situation is that Chris Rock could’ve **easily** gotten hit and/or cussed out by any member of Jada’s family, any one of her close, Black friends, or even by Jada herself. 

A lot of y’all are looking at this from the perspective of whiteness. Y’all are using whiteness framed cultural norms, gender roles, and gender performance expectations to analyze this situation and it falls ten miles short. 

Will slapping Chris Rock wasn’t a husband running to rescue a damsel in distress. Jada isn’t some poor defenseless shrinking violet that her big bold husband rushed in on his trusty steed to defend. This isn’t “both men” showing toxic masculinity. 

Y’all out here forgetting, or not realizing, that most Black families are actually matriarchal and that literally *anyone* will take up for the women in their family including, but not limited to, other women. Like Chris Rock better be thankful it wasn’t Gammy (Jada mama) who ran up on him. 

Additionally, the way that *I* was socialized is that you don’t let people disrespect your family in front of you. Will might’ve laughed at first for a variety of reasons. But I can guarantee that he sensed something in Jada that made him act. I’ve been with my companion for twenty years, and I can *tell* his feelings sometimes better than he can. You’re with somebody that long and you know when something is bothering them. 

Maybe Will *was* acting out of a toxically masculine impulse, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be that. There’s room for nuance here. 

Furthermore, I am tired of seeing women and femmes of whiteness talk about Will Smith through their lenses of patriarchy and toxic masculinity. I don’t know how, but a lot of y’all have managed to somehow make this about yourselves when it ain’t. Y’all want to cast Jada in woman of pallor terms that don’t work here. 

We had a whole week of misogynoir playing in Black women’s faces and everybody saying “protect Black women” and “no one is more disrespected than Black women, poor black women.” Everybody wants to lament and fake boo-hoo about Black women being mistreated, but then when somebody makes an attempt to protect a Black woman the moment she was disrespected suddenly he didn’t do it right. 

Black women *always* have to take up for ourselves. I cannot tell you the number of times I have been disrespected to my face and nobody but me saw fit to say something. It hurts to always have to be your own defender and champion all the time. I have been in so many situations where I wished someone would speak up on my behalf instead of me having to assume all the risk and weight of standing up for myself. 

If Jada had stood up for herself cussed Chris Rock out, some of y’all would’ve called Will weak for just sitting there. 

Finally, I’m also tired of all of the “violence isn’t the answer” takes. What Chris Rock said was violent. His words were violent on multiple levels: ableism, misogynoir, and playing in front of Dwight Mahn like that. That lil slap was the least violent part of the incident.

Thanks.  Very interesting perspective.

[Melissa Louise]

11 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I hadn’t considered it a race thing before, and maybe I am viewing it through the wrong lens. This is written by Ally Henny, a Black writer and speaker who talks about culture and race.  You can see it on her Facebook page and the comments are really interesting especially since I am white and most of the commentators are Black(and strongly in defense of WS). I neither agree or disagree personally, but I am open to learning.  So maybe there is a race element I had not considered.   
As I said, I am open to learning.

——

What a lot of y’all are absolutely **failing** to understand about the Will Smith situation is that Chris Rock could’ve **easily** gotten hit and/or cussed out by any member of Jada’s family, any one of her close, Black friends, or even by Jada herself. 

A lot of y’all are looking at this from the perspective of whiteness. Y’all are using whiteness framed cultural norms, gender roles, and gender performance expectations to analyze this situation and it falls ten miles short. 

Will slapping Chris Rock wasn’t a husband running to rescue a damsel in distress. Jada isn’t some poor defenseless shrinking violet that her big bold husband rushed in on his trusty steed to defend. This isn’t “both men” showing toxic masculinity. 

Y’all out here forgetting, or not realizing, that most Black families are actually matriarchal and that literally *anyone* will take up for the women in their family including, but not limited to, other women. Like Chris Rock better be thankful it wasn’t Gammy (Jada mama) who ran up on him. 

Additionally, the way that *I* was socialized is that you don’t let people disrespect your family in front of you. Will might’ve laughed at first for a variety of reasons. But I can guarantee that he sensed something in Jada that made him act. I’ve been with my companion for twenty years, and I can *tell* his feelings sometimes better than he can. You’re with somebody that long and you know when something is bothering them. 

Maybe Will *was* acting out of a toxically masculine impulse, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be that. There’s room for nuance here. 

Furthermore, I am tired of seeing women and femmes of whiteness talk about Will Smith through their lenses of patriarchy and toxic masculinity. I don’t know how, but a lot of y’all have managed to somehow make this about yourselves when it ain’t. Y’all want to cast Jada in woman of pallor terms that don’t work here. 

We had a whole week of misogynoir playing in Black women’s faces and everybody saying “protect Black women” and “no one is more disrespected than Black women, poor black women.” Everybody wants to lament and fake boo-hoo about Black women being mistreated, but then when somebody makes an attempt to protect a Black woman the moment she was disrespected suddenly he didn’t do it right. 

Black women *always* have to take up for ourselves. I cannot tell you the number of times I have been disrespected to my face and nobody but me saw fit to say something. It hurts to always have to be your own defender and champion all the time. I have been in so many situations where I wished someone would speak up on my behalf instead of me having to assume all the risk and weight of standing up for myself. 

If Jada had stood up for herself cussed Chris Rock out, some of y’all would’ve called Will weak for just sitting there. 

Finally, I’m also tired of all of the “violence isn’t the answer” takes. What Chris Rock said was violent. His words were violent on multiple levels: ableism, misogynoir, and playing in front of Dwight Mahn like that. That lil slap was the least violent part of the incident.

 

I linked an article by a Black woman from a Black publication with an entirely Not This perspective earlier in the thread. 

Here it is again. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/andscape.com/features/will-smiths-slap-at-the-oscars-wasnt-protecting-anyone-certainly-not-his-wife/amp/

In my opinion, Soraya McDonald nails it. 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

I linked an article by a Black woman from a Black publication with an entirely Not This perspective earlier in the thread. 

Here it is again. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/andscape.com/features/will-smiths-slap-at-the-oscars-wasnt-protecting-anyone-certainly-not-his-wife/amp/

 

I read that too and I read the head of the NAACP’s statement against it.  But a lot of my Black friends are resharing Ms. Henny’s posf and others in agreement, and I don’t want to just automatically dismiss their voices because I might view it differently.  I appreciate that no race is a monolith and people are going to have wildly different views, but if there’s a racial aspect I haven’t considered, I’d like to at least think about it and learn what I can.  I mean, it really doesn’t matter what a middle aged mom in the middle of rural New York thinks about some Hollywood celebrity, but if people I love and care about have a different lens because of their race and have come to different conclusions about the incident, I want to be able to listen and learn too. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Melissa Louise]

 

 

3 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I read that too and I read the head of the NAACP’s statement against it.  But a lot of my Black friends are resharing Ms. Henny’s posf and others in agreement, and I don’t want to just automatically dismiss their voices because I might view it differently.  I appreciate that no race is a monolith and people are going to have wildly different views, but if there’s a racial aspect I haven’t considered, I’d like to at least think about it and learn what I can.

Maybe you could share McDonald's view with your friends in the spirit of discussion, that "violence committed in the name of defending women's honor is rooted in sexism. It's ugly, it's coarse, and it does nothing to serve the people in whose name it is committed.'

 

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

 

Maybe you could share McDonald's view with your friends in the spirit of discussion, that "violence committed in the name of defending women's honor is rooted in sexism. It's ugly, it's coarse, and it does nothing to serve the people in whose name it is committed.'

 

 

I have some friends that I’ve actually said something similar to and had a great discussion(because it does, to me, feel rooted in sexism).  I also have a couple other friends who are telling their white friends to be quiet and listen, and I respect that.

This probably is irrelevant, but listening to diverse voices, even when I disagree, is something I’m trying to get better at.  A few weeks ago I spoke at an Emergency Medical Services conference.  Like many organizations, EMS has traditionally been men only and women have only begun really making inroads in the last 15 years.  I was sitting at a table with just men having lunch and the discussion turned to misogyny in the fire and EMS world.  They assured me that it’s gone, because there are(very few) women fire chiefs of large fire departments and many women paramedics now. 
I was the lone woman, and no one wanted to hear my voice.  No one wanted to hear the sexism and misogyny I experience at work daily, from patients(especially older women, surprisingly, complain a lot when an all female crew shows up. I had one lady demand we call the fire department to carry her out because she didn’t believe we could do it), from management and supervisors. Sure, it’s subtle, but it’s still there.  But I was drowned out by men patting themselves on the back for eradicating misogyny and sexism in the fire service, when the lone woman is there trying to say no, you just don’t see it or experience it because what’s normal for you is sexist to me. Since then, I’ve tried to be much more careful about actually listening to people, even when I completely disagree.  Like I said, it’s probably irrelevant, but that experience made me much more careful to just listen.

[MrsMommy]

Why is this form of comedy that mocks others expected, accepted, and even encouraged? Removing the particular incident, I don't understand why society is still tolerating that as a comedy form...it seems very junior high to me, and if you can't make people laugh with making fun of someone else, maybe you're just not that funny.

[Sneezyone]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I hadn’t considered it a race thing before, and maybe I am viewing it through the wrong lens. This is written by Ally Henny, a Black writer and speaker who talks about culture and race.  You can see it on her Facebook page and the comments are really interesting especially since I am white and most of the commentators are Black(and strongly in defense of WS). I neither agree or disagree personally, but I am open to learning.  So maybe there is a race element I had not considered.   
As I said, I am open to learning.

——

What a lot of y’all are absolutely **failing** to understand about the Will Smith situation is that Chris Rock could’ve **easily** gotten hit and/or cussed out by any member of Jada’s family, any one of her close, Black friends, or even by Jada herself. 

A lot of y’all are looking at this from the perspective of whiteness. Y’all are using whiteness framed cultural norms, gender roles, and gender performance expectations to analyze this situation and it falls ten miles short. 

Will slapping Chris Rock wasn’t a husband running to rescue a damsel in distress. Jada isn’t some poor defenseless shrinking violet that her big bold husband rushed in on his trusty steed to defend. This isn’t “both men” showing toxic masculinity. 

Y’all out here forgetting, or not realizing, that most Black families are actually matriarchal and that literally *anyone* will take up for the women in their family including, but not limited to, other women. Like Chris Rock better be thankful it wasn’t Gammy (Jada mama) who ran up on him. 

Additionally, the way that *I* was socialized is that you don’t let people disrespect your family in front of you. Will might’ve laughed at first for a variety of reasons. But I can guarantee that he sensed something in Jada that made him act. I’ve been with my companion for twenty years, and I can *tell* his feelings sometimes better than he can. You’re with somebody that long and you know when something is bothering them. 

Maybe Will *was* acting out of a toxically masculine impulse, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be that. There’s room for nuance here. 

Furthermore, I am tired of seeing women and femmes of whiteness talk about Will Smith through their lenses of patriarchy and toxic masculinity. I don’t know how, but a lot of y’all have managed to somehow make this about yourselves when it ain’t. Y’all want to cast Jada in woman of pallor terms that don’t work here. 

We had a whole week of misogynoir playing in Black women’s faces and everybody saying “protect Black women” and “no one is more disrespected than Black women, poor black women.” Everybody wants to lament and fake boo-hoo about Black women being mistreated, but then when somebody makes an attempt to protect a Black woman the moment she was disrespected suddenly he didn’t do it right. 

Black women *always* have to take up for ourselves. I cannot tell you the number of times I have been disrespected to my face and nobody but me saw fit to say something. It hurts to always have to be your own defender and champion all the time. I have been in so many situations where I wished someone would speak up on my behalf instead of me having to assume all the risk and weight of standing up for myself. 

If Jada had stood up for herself cussed Chris Rock out, some of y’all would’ve called Will weak for just sitting there. 

Finally, I’m also tired of all of the “violence isn’t the answer” takes. What Chris Rock said was violent. His words were violent on multiple levels: ableism, misogynoir, and playing in front of Dwight Mahn like that. That lil slap was the least violent part of the incident.

I know many people who share this view. I’d say my feed leans 20% in this direction where the broader discussion runs about 40-50% in this direction. I don’t share it. The ‘socialization’ this individual describes is toxic too, rooted in a time where family honor/name was the only thing you could own.

Rock’s words weren’t, objectively, threatening or violent by any stretch. And, no, I wouldn’t be calling Smith weak for sitting there. I’d expect, at a professional event, him to handle his business like a professional not like some thug in the club. It’s not a sign of strength to, unprovoked, strike a smaller man who’s doing his job. Where was the concern for Rock’s kids and family? I don’t believe for a second Smith would run up on someone his own size like that.

I don’t want that kind of protection as a black woman, reject that kind of socialization for my son/daughter, and (unpopular opinion alert) think that ‘hood’ mentality is a major hurdle for people who want to advance personally and professionally.

ETA: A lot of people don’t realize that the particular brand of dysfunction this family is dealing with is rooted in the push/pull between street and mainstream culture. Jada is ratchet. She grew up in the streets, sold drugs, was SUPER tight with Tupac Shakur (well before he got famous). They attended high school together. Will Smith is not that and never has been. Their issues, separate and together, are all mixed up in that push/pull. You can see it in those coming to Smith’s defense (Tiffany Haddish) and those that are not (Stephen A. Smith). Street rules aren’t compatible with mainstream culture. Anyone remember the closing episodes of the Wire? The Smiths aren’t in Kansas anymore.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

Saw this posted on Facebook, and I agree...

I also think that the summary of this event is someone said something hurtful, someone lost their temper - which is understandable but still not okay. Then they apologized. 

Kareem Abdul Jabar wrote this op-Ed and I think it’s spot on:

When Will Smith stormed onto the Oscar stage to strike Chris Rock for making a joke about his wife’s short hair, he did a lot more damage than just to Rock’s face. With a single petulant blow, he advocated violence, diminished women, insulted the entertainment industry, and perpetuated stereotypes about the Black community.

That’s a lot to unpack. Let’s start with the facts: Rock made a reference to Smith’s wife, Jada Pinkett Smith, as looking like Demi Moore in GI Jane, in which Moore had shaved her head. Jada Pinkett Smith suffers from alopecia, which causes hair loss. Ok, I can see where the Smiths might not have found that joke funny. But Hollywood awards shows are traditionally a venue where much worse things have been said about celebrities as a means of downplaying the fact that it’s basically a gathering of multimillionaires giving each other awards to boost business so they can make even more money.

The Smiths could have reacted by politely laughing along with the joke or by glowering angrily at Rock. Instead, Smith felt the need to get up in front of his industry peers and millions of people around the world, hit another man, then return to his seat to bellow: “Keep my wife's name out of your fucking mouth.” Twice.

Some have romanticized Smith’s actions as that of a loving husband defending his wife. Comedian Tiffany Haddish, who starred in the movie Girls Trip with Pinkett Smith, praised Smith’s actions: “[F]or me, it was the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen because it made me believe that there are still men out there that love and care about their women, their wives.”

Actually, it was the opposite. Smith’s slap was also a slap to women. If Rock had physically attacked Pinkett Smith, Smith’s intervention would have been welcome. Or if he’d remained in his seat and yelled his post-slap threat, that would have been unnecessary, but understandable. But by hitting Rock, he announced that his wife was incapable of defending herself—against words. From everything I’d seen of Pinkett Smith over the years, she’s a very capable, tough, smart woman who can single-handedly take on a lame joke at the Academy Awards show.

This patronizing, paternal attitude infantilizes women and reduces them to helpless damsels needing a Big Strong Man to defend their honor least they swoon from the vapors. If he was really doing it for his wife, and not his own need to prove himself, he might have thought about the negative attention this brought on them, much harsher than the benign joke. That would have been truly defending and respecting her. This “women need men to defend them” is the same justification currently being proclaimed by conservatives passing laws to restrict abortion and the LGBTQ+ community.

Worse than the slap was Smith’s tearful, self-serving acceptance speech in which he rambled on about all the women in the movie King Richard that he’s protected. Those who protect don’t brag about it in front of 15 million people. They just do it and shut up. You don’t do it as a movie promotion claiming how you’re like the character you just won an award portraying. But, of course, the speech was about justifying his violence. Apparently, so many people need Smith’s protection that occasionally it gets too much and someone needs to be smacked.

What is the legacy of Smith’s violence? He’s brought back the Toxic Bro ideal of embracing Kobra Kai teachings of “might makes right” and “talk is for losers.” Let’s not forget that this macho John Wayne philosophy was expressed in two movies in which Wayne spanked grown women to teach them a lesson. Young boys—especially Black boys—watching their movie idol not just hit another man over a joke, but then justify it as him being a superhero-like protector, are now much more prone to follow in his childish footsteps. Perhaps the saddest confirmation of this is the tweet from Smith’s child Jaden: “And That’s How We Do It.”

That's How We Do It

The Black community also takes a direct hit from Smith. One of the main talking points from those supporting the systemic racism in America is characterizing Blacks as more prone to violence and less able to control their emotions. Smith just gave comfort to the enemy by providing them with the perfect optics they were dreaming of. Many will be reinvigorated to continue their campaign to marginalize African Americans and others through voter suppression campaign.

As for the damage to show business, Smith’s violence is an implied threat to all comedians who now have to worry that an edgy or insulting joke might be met with violence. Good thing Don Rickles, Bill Burr, or Ricky Gervais weren’t there. As comedian Kathy Griffin tweeted: “Now we all have to worry about who wants to be the next Will Smith in comedy clubs and theaters.”

The one bright note is that Chris Rock, clearly stunned, managed to handle the moment with grace and maturity. If only Smith’s acceptance speech had shown similar grace and maturity—and included, instead of self-aggrandizing excuses, a heartfelt apology to Rock.

I met Will Smith when I appeared on Fresh Prince of Bel-Air 28 years ago. And I’ve been to his house. I like him. He’s charming, sincere, and funny. I’m also a big fan of his movies. He’s an accomplished and dedicated actor who deserves the professional accolades he’s received. But it will be difficult to watch the next movie without remembering this sad performance.

I don’t want to see him punished or ostracized because of this one, albeit a big one, mistake. I just want this to be a cautionary tale for others not to romanticize or glorify bad behavior. And I want Smith to be the man who really protects others—by admitting the harm he’s done to others.

44

 

 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Saw this posted on Facebook, and I agree...

I also think that the summary of this event is someone said something hurtful, someone lost their temper - which is understandable but still not okay. Then they apologized. 

Kareem Abdul Jabar wrote this op-Ed and I think it’s spot on:

When Will Smith stormed onto the Oscar stage to strike Chris Rock for making a joke about his wife’s short hair, he did a lot more damage than just to Rock’s face. With a single petulant blow, he advocated violence, diminished women, insulted the entertainment industry, and perpetuated stereotypes about the Black community.

That’s a lot to unpack. Let’s start with the facts: Rock made a reference to Smith’s wife, Jada Pinkett Smith, as looking like Demi Moore in GI Jane, in which Moore had shaved her head. Jada Pinkett Smith suffers from alopecia, which causes hair loss. Ok, I can see where the Smiths might not have found that joke funny. But Hollywood awards shows are traditionally a venue where much worse things have been said about celebrities as a means of downplaying the fact that it’s basically a gathering of multimillionaires giving each other awards to boost business so they can make even more money.

The Smiths could have reacted by politely laughing along with the joke or by glowering angrily at Rock. Instead, Smith felt the need to get up in front of his industry peers and millions of people around the world, hit another man, then return to his seat to bellow: “Keep my wife's name out of your fucking mouth.” Twice.

Some have romanticized Smith’s actions as that of a loving husband defending his wife. Comedian Tiffany Haddish, who starred in the movie Girls Trip with Pinkett Smith, praised Smith’s actions: “[F]or me, it was the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen because it made me believe that there are still men out there that love and care about their women, their wives.”

Actually, it was the opposite. Smith’s slap was also a slap to women. If Rock had physically attacked Pinkett Smith, Smith’s intervention would have been welcome. Or if he’d remained in his seat and yelled his post-slap threat, that would have been unnecessary, but understandable. But by hitting Rock, he announced that his wife was incapable of defending herself—against words. From everything I’d seen of Pinkett Smith over the years, she’s a very capable, tough, smart woman who can single-handedly take on a lame joke at the Academy Awards show.

This patronizing, paternal attitude infantilizes women and reduces them to helpless damsels needing a Big Strong Man to defend their honor least they swoon from the vapors. If he was really doing it for his wife, and not his own need to prove himself, he might have thought about the negative attention this brought on them, much harsher than the benign joke. That would have been truly defending and respecting her. This “women need men to defend them” is the same justification currently being proclaimed by conservatives passing laws to restrict abortion and the LGBTQ+ community.

Worse than the slap was Smith’s tearful, self-serving acceptance speech in which he rambled on about all the women in the movie King Richard that he’s protected. Those who protect don’t brag about it in front of 15 million people. They just do it and shut up. You don’t do it as a movie promotion claiming how you’re like the character you just won an award portraying. But, of course, the speech was about justifying his violence. Apparently, so many people need Smith’s protection that occasionally it gets too much and someone needs to be smacked.

What is the legacy of Smith’s violence? He’s brought back the Toxic Bro ideal of embracing Kobra Kai teachings of “might makes right” and “talk is for losers.” Let’s not forget that this macho John Wayne philosophy was expressed in two movies in which Wayne spanked grown women to teach them a lesson. Young boys—especially Black boys—watching their movie idol not just hit another man over a joke, but then justify it as him being a superhero-like protector, are now much more prone to follow in his childish footsteps. Perhaps the saddest confirmation of this is the tweet from Smith’s child Jaden: “And That’s How We Do It.”

That's How We Do It

The Black community also takes a direct hit from Smith. One of the main talking points from those supporting the systemic racism in America is characterizing Blacks as more prone to violence and less able to control their emotions. Smith just gave comfort to the enemy by providing them with the perfect optics they were dreaming of. Many will be reinvigorated to continue their campaign to marginalize African Americans and others through voter suppression campaign.

As for the damage to show business, Smith’s violence is an implied threat to all comedians who now have to worry that an edgy or insulting joke might be met with violence. Good thing Don Rickles, Bill Burr, or Ricky Gervais weren’t there. As comedian Kathy Griffin tweeted: “Now we all have to worry about who wants to be the next Will Smith in comedy clubs and theaters.”

The one bright note is that Chris Rock, clearly stunned, managed to handle the moment with grace and maturity. If only Smith’s acceptance speech had shown similar grace and maturity—and included, instead of self-aggrandizing excuses, a heartfelt apology to Rock.

I met Will Smith when I appeared on Fresh Prince of Bel-Air 28 years ago. And I’ve been to his house. I like him. He’s charming, sincere, and funny. I’m also a big fan of his movies. He’s an accomplished and dedicated actor who deserves the professional accolades he’s received. But it will be difficult to watch the next movie without remembering this sad performance.

I don’t want to see him punished or ostracized because of this one, albeit a big one, mistake. I just want this to be a cautionary tale for others not to romanticize or glorify bad behavior. And I want Smith to be the man who really protects others—by admitting the harm he’s done to others.

 

 

44

 

 

ALL OF THIS. Their son’s twitter response was something my friends and I discussed yesterday. The family needs serious help.

[SKL]

27 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

With a single petulant blow, he advocated violence, diminished women, insulted the entertainment industry, and perpetuated stereotypes about the Black community.

 

Hollywood does this all day, every day, and does little else IMO.

The Oscars are the highest awards for doing this all day, every day, for money.

Edited March 29, 2022 by SKL

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, MrsMommy said:

Why is this form of comedy that mocks others expected, accepted, and even encouraged? Removing the particular incident, I don't understand why society is still tolerating that as a comedy form...it seems very junior high to me, and if you can't make people laugh with making fun of someone else, maybe you're just not that funny.

This is why we did a DEEP dive with comedy in 8th grade ELA. Aside from physical/slapstick comedy where you’re literally getting laughs by physically hurting self/others, it’s rooted in verbally exploiting stereotypes, absurdity, farce, error and cruelty for laughs. That’s the genre. It’s been that way since ancient times. It’s escapist, macabre, and makes people feel better about their own troubles in comparison, etc.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Sneezyone

[thewellerman]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

ETA: A lot of people don’t realize that the particular brand of dysfunction this family is dealing with is rooted in the push/pull between street and mainstream culture. Jada is ratchet. She grew up in the streets, sold drugs, was SUPER tight with Tupac Shakur (well before he got famous). They attended high school together. Will Smith is not that and never has been. Their issues, separate and together, are all mixed up in that push/pull. You can see it in those coming to Smith’s defense (Tiffany Haddish) and those that are not (Stephen A. Smith). Street rules aren’t compatible with mainstream culture. Anyone remember the closing episodes of the Wire? The Smiths aren’t in Kansas anymore.

Would you mind elaborating on this, please? I would like to have a better understanding and find there is a lot to wade through.  Any resources you want throw my way would be really appreciated, too.  I guess I should clarify and say I mean that I am seeking more about street vs mainstream culture, not necessarily about the Smith family and this current situation. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, thewellerman said:

Would you mind elaborating on this, please? I would like to have a better understanding and find there is a lot to wade through.  Any resources you want throw my way would be really appreciated, too.  I guess I should clarify and say I mean that I am seeking more about street vs mainstream culture, not necessarily about the Smith family and this current situation. 

So, I'm not sure that I can link you to a comprehensive source without wading through scholarly databases on a college campus. Sometimes you'll see it derisively described as respectability politics but it's more than that. It's leaving behind the behaviors that help you survive in a physically dog-eat-dog type environment for the ones that help you survive in a mentally dog-eat-dog environment. Sometimes it's described in terms of code switching. It's a really loaded and nuanced discussion that happens more internally than with any external entities or outlets (if that makes sense). Kareem's essay did a good job of laying out how that kind of push/pull works in practice (like, I see you're frustrated but this isn't how we handle things here...in this place). I'll see what I can find. 

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

So, I'm not sure that I can link you to a comprehensive source without wading through scholarly databases on a college campus. Sometimes you'll see it derisively described as respectability politics but it's more than that. It's leaving behind the behaviors that help you survive in a physically dog-eat-dog type environment for the ones that help you survive in a mentally dog-eat-dog environment. Sometimes it's described in terms of code switching. It's a really loaded and nuanced discussion that happens more internally than with any external entities or outlets (if that makes sense). Kareem's essay did a good job of laying out how that kind of push/pull works in practice (like, I see you're frustrated but this isn't how we handle things here...in this place). I'll see what I can find. 

What I'm finding interesting is the reference to culture, and my own realization that even though I'm one generation removed from a physical, solve it with your fists culture - as in an uncle who was arrested for assault with a sword fish, another who was beaten down for gambling debts, another who was forced to join the army to avoid jail, my own father who was very big tough guy and more than once got into shoving matches in front of me...that isn't the SAME physical, solve it with violence culture you are talking about. That I may know about redneck/backwoods/western watching violence is an acceptable way to solve things culture, but that doesn't mean that the rules of engagement are the same in OTHER cultures. 

Part of why this was so jarring to me wasn't the violence itself, it was the deviation from my own cultural expectation of "rules of engagement". 

I'm realizing that maybe those rules are not universal, and that's coloring my view. Still doesn't make the violence okay, not at all, but colors my emotional reaction to the situation. 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

What I'm finding interesting is the reference to culture, and my own realization that even though I'm one generation removed from a physical, solve it with your fists culture - as in an uncle who was arrested for assault with a sword fish, another who was beaten down for gambling debts, another who was forced to join the army to avoid jail, my own father who was very big tough guy and more than once got into shoving matches in front of me...that isn't the SAME physical, solve it with violence culture you are talking about. That I may know about redneck/backwoods/western watching violence is an acceptable way to solve things culture, but that doesn't mean that the rules of engagement are the same in OTHER cultures. 

Part of why this was so jarring to me wasn't the violence itself, it was the deviation from my own cultural expectation of "rules of engagement". 

I'm realizing that maybe those rules are not universal, and that's coloring my view. Still doesn't make the violence okay, not at all, but colors my emotional reaction to the situation. 

Oh, for sure. There's definitely a different set of rules of engagement and there are serious prohibitions about going after spouses, girlfriends and mothers in unacceptable ways. The culture is, largely, matriarchal for historical reasons (even in my house). I get all of that. And yet, I don't think this remark rose to that level, nor do I think the ENVIRONMENT lent itself to the application of those rules.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Sneezyone

[thewellerman]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

So, I'm not sure that I can link you to a comprehensive source without wading through scholarly databases on a college campus. Sometimes you'll see it derisively described as respectability politics but it's more than that. It's leaving behind the behaviors that help you survive in a physically dog-eat-dog type environment for the ones that help you survive in a mentally dog-eat-dog environment. Sometimes it's described in terms of code switching. It's a really loaded and nuanced discussion that happens more internally than with any external entities or outlets (if that makes sense). Kareem's essay did a good job of laying out how that kind of push/pull works in practice (like, I see you're frustrated but this isn't how we handle things here...in this place). I'll see what I can find. 

Thank you!  I am desperately trying to teach my children to see deeper, but I find it is hard because it is such an individual thing.  The feeling and responses to varying situations are processed through the totality of the speaker's experiences, many of which my children cannot begin to imagine.  We have extensively learned about the culture of the deep south, and how so much of that still influences thoughts and behaviors today.  Street culture is the next thing on my list to study with them, but I am much less confident because my knowledge comes mainly from distant exposures and impressions, or other people's reactions to those situations.  I find sorting through the hurt to the big picture difficult, and I want to be sure I am giving them as an objective look as possible.

Sorry for the detour OP.  In context of this conversation about Will Smith's actions, I do think it is incredibly relevant.  Sometimes it is really hard to answer WHY someone would do something so shocking, and we seek to make excuses or explanations, and then try to extrapolate rightness or wrongness from that understanding. I think both things can sit side by side.  Will Smith shouldn't have smacked him, but the only way to really address the real issue is by looking at how it happened.  The conversation can be like an onion, with questions like if CR knew she had a medical condition, should people joke like that, who is responsible for protecting their own feelings, etc etc, all being layers.  All of these things are really distractions from the root cause, and really understanding the motivations of both men in the moment.  Without the whole picture, it is easy to make rules and sweeping judgements that are only band-aids and consolation punishments, designed to assuage anger and guilt from an unfortunate circumstance. 

[bibiche]

27 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 - as in an uncle who was arrested for assault with a sword fish, …

Excuse the intrusion, but is this a typo? Because if it isn’t I would be so grateful if you would elaborate. 

[happi duck]

4 minutes ago, bibiche said:

Excuse the intrusion, but is this a typo? Because if it isn’t I would be so grateful if you would elaborate. 

Florida man? 🙂

[SKL]

Right now I just need to know if the swordfish was dead.

[ikslo]

 

[ktgrok]

41 minutes ago, bibiche said:

Excuse the intrusion, but is this a typo? Because if it isn’t I would be so grateful if you would elaborate. 

Not a typo 🙂

My grandfather managed/owned a seafood market (not sure if managed or owned actually) and my Dad was a commercial fisherman, and my uncles worked at the fish market and would hang out there. Back room had homemade mango wine fermenting 🙂

Anyway, the brothers were um...wild. My grandfather was not a disciplinarian, my grandmother had 5 boys in 3 years (two sets of twins with a singleton in between) and was overwhelmed, and they grew up wild. Like, hard to believe all still alive, wild. Had a pet monkey and 22 snakes in the suburbs wild. 

as they aged, stayed wild, added in substances, and at one point one uncle got in a fight while hanging out at the fish market and brandished (not sure if he actually made contact) a sword fish that was handy. 

My mom insisted on moving several hours away from all of the uncles when she and my dad got married, as that was NOT the lifestyle she was accustomed too, and my dad kept getting dragged into....situations like this. 

37 minutes ago, happi duck said:

Florida man? 🙂

Yup, the sterotype is real. I'm one generation removed. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, thewellerman said:

Thank you!  I am desperately trying to teach my children to see deeper, but I find it is hard because it is such an individual thing.  The feeling and responses to varying situations are processed through the totality of the speaker's experiences, many of which my children cannot begin to imagine.  We have extensively learned about the culture of the deep south, and how so much of that still influences thoughts and behaviors today.  Street culture is the next thing on my list to study with them, but I am much less confident because my knowledge comes mainly from distant exposures and impressions, or other people's reactions to those situations.  I find sorting through the hurt to the big picture difficult, and I want to be sure I am giving them as an objective look as possible.

Sorry for the detour OP.  In context of this conversation about Will Smith's actions, I do think it is incredibly relevant.  Sometimes it is really hard to answer WHY someone would do something so shocking, and we seek to make excuses or explanations, and then try to extrapolate rightness or wrongness from that understanding. I think both things can sit side by side.  Will Smith shouldn't have smacked him, but the only way to really address the real issue is by looking at how it happened.  The conversation can be like an onion, with questions like if CR knew she had a medical condition, should people joke like that, who is responsible for protecting their own feelings, etc etc, all being layers.  All of these things are really distractions from the root cause, and really understanding the motivations of both men in the moment.  Without the whole picture, it is easy to make rules and sweeping judgements that are only band-aids and consolation punishments, designed to assuage anger and guilt from an unfortunate circumstance. 

What I'm looking for, a deep dive into respectability politics and advancement opportunity issues is escaping me but this (I do not know the author) seems like a good basic primer. https://www.verywellmind.com/playing-the-game-of-respectability-politics-5215862. I found this too: https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/the-rise-of-respectability-politics Believe it or not, you might have a lot better sense of the ethics of the street by watching a series like The Wire over reading hot takes on this issue. It humanizes all of the people over time in a way that a single essay cannot.

A significant challenge is that a lot of the hot takes, as with Cosby/R. Kelly/M. Jackson use them as avatars for larger issues. I have plenty of issues with the culture at large WRT its treatment of minorities but these VERY wealthy people aren't good proxies.

24 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Not a typo 🙂

My grandfather managed/owned a seafood market (not sure if managed or owned actually) and my Dad was a commercial fisherman, and my uncles worked at the fish market and would hang out there. Back room had homemade mango wine fermenting 🙂

Anyway, the brothers were um...wild. My grandfather was not a disciplinarian, my grandmother had 5 boys in 3 years (two sets of twins with a singleton in between) and was overwhelmed, and they grew up wild. Like, hard to believe all still alive, wild. Had a pet monkey and 22 snakes in the suburbs wild. 

as they aged, stayed wild, added in substances, and at one point one uncle got in a fight while hanging out at the fish market and brandished (not sure if he actually made contact) a sword fish that was handy. 

My mom insisted on moving several hours away from all of the uncles when she and my dad got married, as that was NOT the lifestyle she was accustomed too, and my dad kept getting dragged into....situations like this. 

Yup, the sterotype is real. I'm one generation removed. 

I laugh because my uncles are the same. Like, you can't make this stuff up same. It's a wonder they all survived to adulthood.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Jean in Newcastle]

@SneezyoneCould you explain the "be a river to my people" reference in Smith's speech?  I do understand that it's a metaphoric reference and I understand that rivers can be "rivers of life" in some contexts but am not sure exactly how it's being used in this instance. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

@SneezyoneCould you explain the "be a river to my people" reference in Smith's speech?  I do understand that it's a metaphoric reference and I understand that rivers can be "rivers of life" in some contexts but am not sure exactly how it's being used in this instance. 

No, frankly, I can't. He spoke only for himself in that moment and I thought the whole speech was disingenuous bullshit. He just slapped a man on national TV. There's a long history of celebs using the culture as a defense against bad behavior (see my previous references to R. Kelly, Bill Cosby, M. Jackson, etc.). It's gross and indefensible, IMO.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

56 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I laugh because my uncles are the same. Like, you can't make this stuff up same. It's a wonder they all survived to adulthood.

We joke that maybe there were more kids we don’t know about that didn’t make it. I mean, the monkey died from eating paint - that so could have been one of the brothers! 

[MercyA]

IDK. To me it felt like vigilante justice. Wrong but still satisfying. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, MercyA said:

IDK. To me it felt like vigilante justice. Wrong but still satisfying. 

There's nothing satisfying about watching another successful, grown-ass black man be physically assaulted on national TV to assuage someone else's bruised ego.

[JustEm]

56 minutes ago, MercyA said:

 

Nm

Edited March 29, 2022 by hjffkj