thelancet - stigmatizing unvaccinated is not justified

[Melissa in Australia]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

If you're vaccinated, then what is the problem? I honestly don't get it. Vaccination plus lets us stay open and keep working. 

The problem is that people ARE getting discriminated against, just as the article that this thread is about was saying. People were claiming that it was all nonsense. I am tryi g to explain to people who were scoffing that this is the reality in some parts of the world right at this moment. 

It is not my personal problem. But is deeply concerning and I find it quite frankly shocking that discrimination like this is allowed here in Australia 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

2 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

The problem is that people ARE getting discriminated against, just as the article that this thread is about was saying. People were claiming that it was all nonsense. I am tryi g to explain to people who were scoffing that this is the reality in some parts of the world right at this moment. 

It is not my personal problem. But is deeply concerning and I find it quite frankly shocking that discrimination like this is allowed here in Australia 

I'm sorry this is so upsetting for you Melissa.

I'm not seeing discrimination where I am up here in QLD, but maybe my perspective on what discrimination looks like is different?

The way I see it is that the whole world is in a situation that is unprecedented. The measures to control, combat and overcome this need to be extreme. 

I see mandatory vaccination as a public health measure that assists all of us to move forward as safely as possible.

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

The problem is that people ARE getting discriminated against, just as the article that this thread is about was saying. People were claiming that it was all nonsense. I am tryi g to explain to people who were scoffing that this is the reality in some parts of the world right at this moment. 

It is not my personal problem. But is deeply concerning and I find it quite frankly shocking that discrimination like this is allowed here in Australia 

Well, I think there is a strong case to safeguard against this in terms of health care and provision, 'cos that's a slippery slope. 

Unvaxed children can't be excluded from school, either, so that's good (for them - not so much for the other kids or teachers). 

What do you think should happen instead of a mandate? Vaccinated people are less likely to infect me at work - what alternatives can you see that still protects worker health but doesn't involve a mandate?

Daily testing? Unreliable + expensive. I'm open to hearing other ideas...

[fraidycat]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

This makes perfect sense. I make something similar because I had it at the American Indian museum food court. It’s bison chili over fried bread with generous toppings. Taco meat has so many similar spices that it must be a delicious variation. 

I haven’t made chicken paprikash in a long time. It’s one of those dishes I forget about them wonder why I don’t make it more often. My recipe is a little involved so I’ll save it for a freezing day. 

2020 or 2019?  I remember March 11, 2019 as the last day we did a normal, mask-free group activity. We were in rehearsals for a show at a convention the next week that was canceled. 😔

I know if feels like forever, but the shutdown happened in March 2020. The virus emerged in fall of 2019 in China, but life for us was normal until 2020.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

That wuhan thread started in 2019. We’ve been doing this for OVER two years now. It’s crazy-making. 

While they now think covid was in the US in 2019, I thought the lockdowns didn’t start until late February of 2020. So I’m guessing the poster did mean what she said about last being in a restaurant in March of 2020. March of 2019 would have been almost a full year before lockdowns started in most places in the US and well before the pandemic started.

Just noticed that @fraidycatand I must have been posting at the same time.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Frances

[AbcdeDooDah]

3 hours ago, MrsMommy said:

Chicken paprikash and homemade spaetzle...comfort food at its finest!

Omg, I wish my Hungarian dad was here to make his for me. I have his handwritten recipe, but it’s not the same when I make it. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

I do think there’s something to be said for knowing you have symptoms. Masked or barely noticeable symptoms can contribute to the spread. 

[Frances]

42 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

The problem is that people ARE getting discriminated against, just as the article that this thread is about was saying. People were claiming that it was all nonsense. I am tryi g to explain to people who were scoffing that this is the reality in some parts of the world right at this moment. 

It is not my personal problem. But is deeply concerning and I find it quite frankly shocking that discrimination like this is allowed here in Australia 

Trying to equate discrimination based on race or religion with discrimination based on vaccine status (when there is no medical counter indication) is what is nonsense. Do children in Australia have to be vaccinated (not for covid, but for other diseases) to attend public school? Unfortunately my state allows an exemption for just about any reason because they allow a broad philosophical exemption. But there are states in the US that only allow them for medical reasons, including some conservative states. And I don’t think people see that as discrimination.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Frances

[Pam in CT]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

Probably sausage and rice with salad. It’s one of my lazy meals. Box rice. I cooked properly last night though - Italian turkey meatloaf and it came out so good.

Evidently we were separated at birth. Also sausage & rice with salad here tonight, also a go-to lazy meal.  Last night I cooked properly, although using up leftovers in the process -- chicken pot pie with sweet potato, carrots, peas and just a teeny tiny dollop of brandy, mmmmm. 

[Melissa Louise]

17 minutes ago, Frances said:

Trying to equate discrimination based on race or religion with discrimination based on vaccine status (when there is no medical counter indication) is what is nonsense. Do children in Australia have to be vaccinated (not for covid, but for other diseases) to attend public school? Unfortunately my state allows an exemption for just about any reason because they allow a broad philosophical exemption. But there are states in the US that only allow them for medical reasons, including some conservative states. And I don’t think people see that as discrimination.

No, unvaccinated children can attend school...I think. They can't attend preschool, though, and their families don't receive Child Benefit. 

Medical contraindications are accepted. But it needs to get signed off by a specialist, and there's a limited range of contraindications. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Allowing people to reap the natural consequences for their choices during a pandemic, by not allowing them free access to areas where the public congregate, is not discrimination.  It is wisdom. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

maybe my perspective on what discrimination looks like is different?

The way I see it is that the whole world is in a situation that is unprecedented. The measures to control, combat and overcome this need to be extreme. 

I see mandatory vaccination as a public health measure that assists all of us to move forward as safely as possible.

QFT

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, cbollin said:

It was started in January 2020.    so almost two years...  but it all blends together. close enough. right?

in other conversation...

originally plans for supper involved outdoor grilling.  but the rain didn't stop. so we don't know  yet.  tomato soup and grilled cheese sounds good tonight.

Ok. That makes sense. I thought it started before the new year. 

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's not true that you can't work if unvaccinated. Not every industry has mandates. If it's been mandated, workers have a period of time to get vaccinated or look for alternative employment. I have two extended family members who are anti vax and both employed. 

After what I saw in Melbourne this week - Trump flags and literal gallows on the street - I'm not feeling inclined to give benefit of the doubt. 

 

it is absolutely true in victoria, unless you can work from home or have a medical exemption. I know more than a few who have lost their jobs, and more than a few leaving the state.

come on re the gallows. You know very well that people use hyperbolic symbolic imagery at protests, it's hardly an 'only on the right' thing. eg, check out any extinction rebellion protest. The outrage reporting is so disingenuous.

fyi - Dh is single vaxxed (waiting on his next appointment - rural areas didn't have many appointments in time!) and was turned away at bunnings yesterday - even with his trade card. So, great. 

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

While they now think covid was in the US in 2019, I thought the lockdowns didn’t start until late February of 2020. So I’m guessing the poster did mean what she said about last being in a restaurant in March of 2020. March of 2019 would have been almost a full year before lockdowns started in most places in the US and well before the pandemic started.

Just noticed that @fraidycatand I must have been posting at the same time.

Yeah, sorry. I can’t count. Some days it seems even longer than it has been. I’m about to make some professional decisions about whether or not to participate in an annual dance convention that’s been drastically effected by Covid for the THIRD time. The only silver lining is that I’ve had my lesson plans done for a few years now. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, LMD said:

it is absolutely true in victoria, unless you can work from home or have a medical exemption. I know more than a few who have lost their jobs, and more than a few leaving the state.

come on re the gallows. You know very well that people use hyperbolic symbolic imagery at protests, it's hardly an 'only on the right' thing. eg, check out any extinction rebellion protest. The outrage reporting is so disingenuous.

fyi - Dh is single vaxxed (waiting on his next appointment - rural areas didn't have many appointments in time!) and was turned away at bunnings yesterday - even with his trade card. So, great. 

Yes, I apologised for being misinformed. 

It wasn't just the gallows - there was misinfo all over those protests.  Stuff about Satanic abuse etc. I've got family members who are on about blood of Jesus or something. 

Idk. I would like to have a safe working place. I'm not sure how that is compatible without co-workers being vaccinated. 

I think ppl are just trying to shift discrimination back to where it's comfortable - onto those with disabilities and vulnerabilities. We work too. 

Can you husband order from Bunnings online and click and collect till he has his second Vax? 

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Well, I think there is a strong case to safeguard against this in terms of health care and provision, 'cos that's a slippery slope. 

Unvaxed children can't be excluded from school, either, so that's good (for them - not so much for the other kids or teachers). 

What do you think should happen instead of a mandate? Vaccinated people are less likely to infect me at work - what alternatives can you see that still protects worker health but doesn't involve a mandate?

Daily testing? Unreliable + expensive. I'm open to hearing other ideas...

we are already at just about 90% fully vaxxed for 12+!

what measures do you think are reasonable to force the last 6ish%? How far would you be willing to go? How many human rights charter breaches are okay to round up those last few %?

[LMD]

7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, I apologised for being misinformed. 

It wasn't just the gallows - there was misinfo all over those protests.  Stuff about Satanic abuse etc. I've got family members who are on about blood of Jesus or something. 

Idk. I would like to have a safe working place. I'm not sure how that is compatible without co-workers being vaccinated. 

I think ppl are just trying to shift discrimination back to where it's comfortable - onto those with disabilities and vulnerabilities. We work too. 

Can you husband order from Bunnings online and click and collect till he has his second Vax? 

yeah, of course there's crazies mixed in. But it's so disingenuous to think that all hundreds of thousands of the protesters are fringe, violent crazy people - especially when the protests were so peaceful!

I can of course empathise with wanting a safe working environment, but do you also want updates on how long between your co-worker's boosters? Do you ask about their other vaccine statuses or risk factors? Or do you just hope they act like good rational people? I get that covid is scarier, but at 90something% double vaxxed I think the fear and blame and othering for unvaxxed people is in danger of getting out of proportion.

eta re bunnings. It's the principle of it, he tried to do what he was supposed to do but it's all a shit show. He could legally be working at bunnings yesterday but not shopping 😑

Edited November 22, 2021 by LMD

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

we are already at just about 90% fully vaxxed for 12+!

what measures do you think are reasonable to force the last 6ish%? How far would you be willing to go? How many human rights charter breaches are okay to round up those last few %?

I'm pretty good with employment mandates. If a job can be done from home, it should be offered to the unvaxed person. 

There's a strong public health interest behind mandates and it's a matter of balancing rights. 

I think that the last 6% should have medical care, education, and access to housing, and other essential goods. Access to all government services. 

I think business should retain home delivery/click and collect systems so non-essentials can still be purchased.

Mostly, it would just be good if the 6%  (minus the tiny number of ppl who can't be vaccinated) would get vaccinated. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, LMD said:

yeah, of course there's crazies mixed in. But it's so disingenuous to think that all hundreds of thousands of the protesters are fringe, violent crazy people - especially when the protests were so peaceful!

I can of course empathise with wanting a safe working environment, but do you also want updates on how long between your co-worker's boosters? Do you ask about their other vaccine statuses or risk factors? Or do you just hope they act like good rational people? I get that covid is scarier, but at 90something% double vaxxed I think the fear and blame and othering for unvaxxed people is in danger of getting out of proportion.

eta re bunnings. It's the principle of it, he tried to do what he was supposed to do but it's all a shit show. He could legally be working at bunnings yesterday but not shopping 😑

I don't have to ask yet, because it's mandated. 

Yes, I would ask about boosters if they are not mandated. 

Mind you, this is all theoretical. I'm on LWOP because kids arent vaccinated, and there are clusters in schools. 

I'm not complaining about it - we all have to take responsibility for our health - but that kind of goes for those who choose not to be vaccinated as well. 

 

 

[Terabith]

I think there is a real difference in "discriminating against people who have refused outright to get vaccinated despite ample opportunity" and "discrimination of people who have health issues that make vaccination problematic or who simply haven't been able to get appointments yet."  I would like there to be flexibility, but I also think protecting the public is important.  

[Melissa Louise]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I think there is a real difference in "discriminating against people who have refused outright to get vaccinated despite ample opportunity" and "discrimination of people who have health issues that make vaccination problematic or who simply haven't been able to get appointments yet."  I would like there to be flexibility, but I also think protecting the public is important.  

Yes, our roll out was a stroll out and people who are still waiting for a second Vax appt are really disadvantaged here ATM.

[Catwoman]

51 minutes ago, LMD said:

we are already at just about 90% fully vaxxed for 12+!

what measures do you think are reasonable to force the last 6ish%? How far would you be willing to go? How many human rights charter breaches are okay to round up those last few %?

I can only dream of living in a country where over 90% of the people are vaccinated. 😞 

[Ausmumof3]

I was having the conversation with someone on the weekend who is in the situation of vaccinate or lose her job now.  I do feel pretty sorry for her because if you genuinely think you’re in a situation where you either put poison in yourself or starve you do feel pretty victimised.  I’m mostly angry at the people spreading information not those just trying to make sense of stuff.  Thankfully she had a nurse friend who took the time and effort to talk her through most of her concerns and she was feeling more hopeful.  I don’t have good answers but I hate what this is doing to people.

[EKS]

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I do feel pretty sorry for her because if you genuinely think you’re in a situation where you either put poison in yourself or starve you do feel pretty victimised.

Yes, because if you actually get covid it isn't like getting poison in yourself at all.

That and the fact that the success of vaccination relies on folks actually putting the greater good over their own selfish motives.

WTF is wrong this this world?

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I was having the conversation with someone on the weekend who is in the situation of vaccinate or lose her job now.  I do feel pretty sorry for her because if you genuinely think you’re in a situation where you either put poison in yourself or starve you do feel pretty victimised.  I’m mostly angry at the people spreading information not those just trying to make sense of stuff.  Thankfully she had a nurse friend who took the time and effort to talk her through most of her concerns and she was feeling more hopeful.  I don’t have good answers but I hate what this is doing to people.

Our extended family can't gather together on the first anniversary of a death because one part of the extended family thinks God will heal them if they get Covid. I mean, it must be nice to have that faith!*

The vaxed siblings are upset that they can't all gather as a family at this time. One sibling feels like she's lost her living sister to a cult, and this has compounded her bereavement. 

Another elderly family member has been talked into not getting her second dose by her anti vax grandson. 

It's just causing so much pain in families, and then more pain to come if any of them do get sick. 

*They won't mask either, unfortunately. Even though God isn't protecting the family heathens. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

Yes, because if you actually get covid it isn't like getting poison in yourself at all.

That and the fact that the success of vaccination relies on folks actually putting the greater good over their own selfish motives.

WTF is wrong this this world?

I think there is some heavy duty brainwashing going on for people like my relatives - from their church or from the net. 

[mathnerd]

Just now, EKS said:

Yes, because if you actually get covid it isn't like getting poison in yourself at all.

That and the fact that the success of vaccination relies on folks actually putting the greater good over their own selfish motives.

WTF is wrong this this world?

Thank you for saying this!

If one actually did get Covid and they took any pharmaceutical drug for it - Ivermectin, monoclonal AB, steroids, any number of IV's including antibiotics, pneumonia medication, remedisvir etc etc - those are the things that seem poisonous to the body from my POV ... not to mention taking another bunch of drugs for years if it turns out to be long covid ...

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, LMD said:

it is absolutely true in victoria, unless you can work from home or have a medical exemption. I know more than a few who have lost their jobs, and more than a few leaving the state.

come on re the gallows. You know very well that people use hyperbolic symbolic imagery at protests, it's hardly an 'only on the right' thing. eg, check out any extinction rebellion protest. The outrage reporting is so disingenuous.

fyi - Dh is single vaxxed (waiting on his next appointment - rural areas didn't have many appointments in time!) and was turned away at bunnings yesterday - even with his trade card. So, great. 

One of my sons lost his job in October because he couldn't get an appointment in time as rural areas didn't have enough vaccinations because Melbourne was  given priority. There was no orderly timeline, just a few days notice for his industry. He is now vaxed and has another job at less than 1/4 of the wage. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

One of my sons lost his job in October because he couldn't get an appointment in time as rural areas didn't have enough vaccinations because Melbourne was  given priority. There was no orderly timeline, just a few days notice for his industry. He is now vaxed and has another job at less than 1/4 of the wage. 

That's terrible, and it's a problem that can be very firmly placed at Morrison's door. The roll out was extremely poor. 

[Melissa in Australia]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I think there is a real difference in "discriminating against people who have refused outright to get vaccinated despite ample opportunity" and "discrimination of people who have health issues that make vaccination problematic or who simply haven't been able to get appointments yet."  I would like there to be flexibility, but I also think protecting the public is important.  

Would you think over 90% vaxed enough

There is no flexibility here at all. None

My neighbour is not vaxed, terrified to as his brother died of a heart attack  12 hours after getting vaccinated.  A week ago he could go shopping in a hardware shop. Now we have hit 90% vaccination rate unvacvinated are no longer permitted to do anything other than food shopping and the government said that will be for the whole of next year, all the way until 2023

Even though I  personally do not like my neighbour, I think he is being discriminated against 

[Terabith]

11 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

One of my sons lost his job in October because he couldn't get an appointment in time as rural areas didn't have enough vaccinations because Melbourne was  given priority. There was no orderly timeline, just a few days notice for his industry. He is now vaxed and has another job at less than 1/4 of the wage. 

That is crazy and wrong, and I am deeply sorry.  

As far as 90% being enough.....maybe?  With Delta, honestly, it probably is not.  Your son absolutely should not have been fired for not being ABLE to get a vaccine when there weren't appointments.  Neighbor who is worried based on timing of brother's heart attack, I can understand his worry, but it's probably not a rational correlation.  

[Melissa in Australia]

14 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

That's terrible, and it's a problem that can be very firmly placed at Morrison's door. The roll out was extremely poor. 

No it is a problem that can be traced right to Dan's feet. He is the one making stupid announcements that have huge impacts every few days. He is the one that  has completly lost touch with reality and makes calls without looking at rural areas to see what is actually going on. He is the one trying to sneak through parliament new powers for himself. 

It like living through a nightmare here in Victoria atm

Edited November 22, 2021 by Melissa in Australia
Spelling

[Ausmumof3]

16 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Would you think over 90% vaxed enough

There is no flexibility here at all. None

My neighbour is not vaxed, terrified to as his brother died of a heart attack  12 hours after getting vaccinated.  A week ago he could go shopping in a hardware shop. Now we have hit 90% vaccination rate unvacvinated are no longer permitted to do anything other than food shopping and the government said that will be for the whole of next year, all the way until 2023

Even though I  personally do not like my neighbour, I think he is being discriminated against 

90pc of total population would be ok but kids are still excluded unfortunately.  Netherlands with and almost 90pc vax rate (86 I think) just posted a 72pc increase in cases in the past week.  Unfortunately a significant percentage of people are now hitting four to five months post when we will see significant waning immunity and that’s going to impact on spread rates.  Vics spread rate just went back over 1 again so cases are climbing.  It sucks so much.  I’m not someone who is very pro vaccine mandates at all.  I suspect vaccination is not going to solve this without other measures.  But I’m also not sure what else we can do at this point because the virus has been let it and it’s so darn stubborn.  

[Ausmumof3]

Austria have just mandated vaccines for the whole country no exceptions if I understand correctly after being forced back into lockdown by overwhelmed hospitals etc.  in some ways I wonder if that would have been better.  Giving people an illusion of choice while actually making it impossible for them to live probably makes people unhappier overall.  

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Melissa in Australia said:

No it is a problem that can be traced right to Dan's feet. He is the one making stupid announcements that have huge impacts every few days. He is the one that  has completly lost touch with reality and makes calls without looking at rural areas to see what is actually going on. He is the one trying to sneak through parliament new powers for himself. 

It like living through a nightmare here in Victoria atm

A-fricken-men

Vic is a Kafkaesque place right now.

[Laura Corin]

6 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

90pc of total population would be ok but kids are still excluded unfortunately.  Netherlands with and almost 90pc vax rate (86 I think) just posted a 72pc increase in cases in the past week.  

Yes. Scotland is at 88.2 percent of adults double jabbed and 31 percent of adults boostered.  Hospitalisation and death is falling but our 7 day case rate per 100,000 is still 384.

[YaelAldrich]

21 hours ago, Selkie said:

We're having leftovers from last night - tacos with crispy tofu, chickpeas, rice, spinach, mushrooms, shredded red cabbage, guacamole, and cashew queso. I'm looking forward to it because they were totally delicious.

I need a recipe or inspiration for this please!!!

[Bootsie]

14 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Austria have just mandated vaccines for the whole country no exceptions if I understand correctly after being forced back into lockdown by overwhelmed hospitals etc.  in some ways I wonder if that would have been better.  Giving people an illusion of choice while actually making it impossible for them to live probably makes people unhappier overall.  

DD is in Austria.  She says that it is not clear what the "vaccine will be required" means or how it will be implemented.  One of her neighbors is undergoing cancer treatment and has been advised to not be vaccinated; so I doubt that there will be no exceptions.  

Edited November 22, 2021 by Bootsie

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

DD is in Austria.  She says that it is not clear what the "vaccine will be required" means or how it will be implemented.  One of her neighbors is undergoing cancer treatment and has been advised to not be vaccinated; so I doubt that there will be no exceptions.  

Probably will be sign off by a doctor or similar for medical reasons.  I wonder if they will do religious reasons.