thelancet - stigmatizing unvaccinated is not justified

[Pen]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext?fbclid=IwAR3Pd274AVDeLCGSzpx83wpovokxJmDWJZS52LVmV8OQQcmmRLA8dFrTums
 

 

[HomeAgain]

People who post links without actually saying anything aren't worth having a discussion with.

[MercyA]

The author writes, "Historically, both the USA and Germany have engendered negative experiences by stigmatising parts of the population for their skin colour or religion."

Yeah, being judged because you choose not to get vaccinated during a deadly pandemic is just like being stigmatized for your skin color. Not buying it.

[Moonhawk]

This is a letter published under the Correspondence section, not a study. I was not familiar with their different sections. Hearing something is from "The Lancet" I assumed it would be a scientifically-researched something or other.

I don't think titling this Post "The Lancet - ..." is very transparent or accurately-leading because it implies this is the Lancet's stance (or what the Lancet is known for: a study), when it is really basically a letter to the editor.

From the Lancet's website describing different sections and requirements:

Correspondence
• Letters should be written in response to previous content published in The Lancet Respiratory Medicine
• Letters for publication in the journal online must reach us within 4 weeks of publication of the original item and should be no longer than 400 words
• Letters of general interest, unlinked to items published in the journal, can be up to 400 words long
• Correspondence letters are not usually peer reviewed, but we might invite replies from the authors of the original publication, or pass on letters to these authors

• Only one table or figure is permitted, and there should be no more than five references and five authors
• All accepted letters are edited, and may be shortened in the interest of space. Proofs will be sent out to authors before publication

eta: I'm just trying to give the context i was lacking when first clicking on the link.

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Moonhawk

[Jean in Newcastle]

People are not being stigmatized for not being vaccinated. They are being hospitalized. And some are being buried.   Pointing out the danger they are putting themselves in is not stigmatizing them. 
 

Also there is a big difference between why certain members of the public aren’t getting vaccinated. I have zero issue with people not being vaccinated because it is medically contraindicated. I have huge issues with people who don’t vaccinate because they believe conspiracy theories. I have even bigger issues with people who continue to spread those theories and other misinformation. Those who spread those lies deserve to be ignored at the very least- for the good of our society. 

[Corraleno]

It's hilarious that pretty much everyone who tries to refute the truth that this is a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" cites the case of "Bear Week" in Provincetown as proof — as if a hook-up event for thousands of gay men is totally the same as everyday grocery shopping, working in an office, etc. The guy who wrote the letter linked in the OP also cites an event in which 380 people attended a nightclub where unmasked people were crammed side-by-side dancing and shouting — and the article lumps together those who were fully vaccinated and those who claimed to have had covid and recovered. Still, the article does say that NONE of the participants who caught covid at the event became seriously ill, which makes the opposite point the OP and the letter writer are claiming — the healthcare crisis, with overwhelmed hospitals and burnt out HCWs quitting in droves, absolutely IS caused by the unvaccinated.

[Pawz4me]

When posting a link to an opinion piece I always try very hard to remember to indicate in my comments that it is, in fact, an opinion piece.

It's the honest thing to do.

[HomeAgain]

Since this is a fruitless discussion, what is everyone having for dinner?

Here: ds's welcome home feast is planned and started.  He fell in love with a Chinese 5-Spice short ribs dish that we saw on America's Test Kitchen.  I rewatched it so I could type it up, and that's now his birthday dinner.  It's not his birthday, but he has been away for months, so, here we go!  Also served with it:

rice
pickled radish
vegetable lo mein
steamed dumplings
scallion pancakes

[math teacher]

Probably leftover barbecued brisket.

[Jean in Newcastle]

7 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Since this is a fruitless discussion, what is everyone having for dinner?

Here: ds's welcome home feast is planned and started.  He fell in love with a Chinese 5-Spice short ribs dish that we saw on America's Test Kitchen.  I rewatched it so I could type it up, and that's now his birthday dinner.  It's not his birthday, but he has been away for months, so, here we go!  Also served with it:

rice
pickled radish
vegetable lo mein
steamed dumplings
scallion pancakes

I am going out to dinner with my bestie from high school. I am so glad that our county requires either a Covid vaccination card OR a negative Covid test results (within 72 hours) in order to eat out. We will go to my favorite Vietnamese place where I don’t even have to order. They just bring me the gluten free chicken noodle dish that the chef developed for me 🙂 

[Farrar]

Probably sausage and rice with salad. It’s one of my lazy meals. Box rice. I cooked properly last night though - Italian turkey meatloaf and it came out so good.

[HomeAgain]

13 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I am going out to dinner with my bestie from high school. I am so glad that our county requires either a Covid vaccination card OR a negative Covid test results (within 72 hours) in order to eat out. We will go to my favorite Vietnamese place where I don’t even have to order. They just bring me the gluten free chicken noodle dish that the chef developed for me 🙂 

I wish we had that here!  Ds is so excited for going out to eat after he is fully vaccinated.  He hasn't been in a restaurant since March 4, 2020.

[happi duck]

I'm hoping for takeout!

[Spryte]

26 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Since this is a fruitless discussion, what is everyone having for dinner?

Here: ds's welcome home feast is planned and started.  He fell in love with a Chinese 5-Spice short ribs dish that we saw on America's Test Kitchen.  I rewatched it so I could type it up, and that's now his birthday dinner.  It's not his birthday, but he has been away for months, so, here we go!  Also served with it:

rice
pickled radish
vegetable lo mein
steamed dumplings
scallion pancakes

I think I need a recipe or link. 😁

[Pawz4me]

We're either getting takeout or going out somewhere. I never cook on Sundays, and I'm feeling particularly lazy today.

[Shoeless]

I think I am going to take the easy route and throw some chicken and rice in the instant pot. 

[MrsMommy]

Chicken paprikash and homemade spaetzle...comfort food at its finest!

[Spryte]

Pork chops and sautéed green beans here.

[Harriet Vane]

Golly, everyone is having such lovely things for dinner. I'm under a work deadline. My brain is at its hottest late in the day and on into the night. I love cooking but I cannot stand ripping myself away from the project at that time of day. The result is that often dh cooks when a deadline looms or we have leftovers. I suspect I might pick up Chipotle or something to get us through tonight.

[Sneezyone]

I nominated DS to cook tonight. Taco salad w/Navajo fry bread. It doesn't make sense but tastes so good and doubles as desert too. LOL.

[Selkie]

We're having leftovers from last night - tacos with crispy tofu, chickpeas, rice, spinach, mushrooms, shredded red cabbage, guacamole, and cashew queso. I'm looking forward to it because they were totally delicious.

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

I think I need a recipe or link. 😁

Here goes!  C/P into a document to print.  It's from an old episode of ATK:

Chinese 5-Spice Short Ribs

Preheat oven to 300F

In a dutch oven on the stove, combine:

• 2.5c water
• 1 envelope plain gelatin (or omit if your ribs are on the bone)

Let stand for 5 minutes, then heat.  When the gelatin is dissolved, to the pot add:

• 1/2c cooking sherry
• 1/3c soy sauce
• 2-3 scallion whites
• 2in piece of ginger, sliced in half lengthwise and crushed.
• 4 crushed cloves of garlic
• 2T molasses
• 2T Hoisin sauce (if too salty at the end, scale back to 2t.  We're at odds over this one)
• 1.5t Five-spice
• 1t red pepper flakes

Stir together.  Add:

• 2-3lbs beef short ribs cut into 4in lengths.

Come to a full simmer.  Cover with foil, then the dutch oven lid.  Place in the oven for 2-2.5 hours.

When done:

Remove the beef. 

Strain the liquid through a sieve to return to the pot.  If needed, remove excess fat. 

Reduce the liquid for another 20 minutes, or until thickened.   During this, shred the beef.

Add:

• 1T corn starch in slurry to the liquid

Return the beef, turn off heat.  Serve with rice or noodles.

[fraidycat]

Good question! Ummmm.... I just ate about 8 After Eights, does that count? 😂

Maybe we'll order pizza or something. I don't feel like cooking.

[MEmama]

I was planning to make lasagna, but instead I took a long nap with the kitties and followed it with a 3 mile walk around the neighborhood so now it’s too late. Spaghetti and vegetarian “notballs” it is! 🙂 

[MEmama]

Also I’m loving this thread! 🙂 

[HomeAgain]

50 minutes ago, Selkie said:

We're having leftovers from last night - tacos with crispy tofu, chickpeas, rice, spinach, mushrooms, shredded red cabbage, guacamole, and cashew queso. I'm looking forward to it because they were totally delicious.

Now I want this.  Well, without the queso, but the rest sounds fabulous and right up my alley! I have a chipotle carrots recipe I've been dying to try along with a chimichurri sauce that would go great with that!

[catz]

I am making homemade pizza!  I've learned when I make it to double the crust and throw a couple crusts in the freezer, so I've had my pizza crust dough defrosting overnight.  My husband and I are having thai peanut pizza because I have chicken and tons of carrots (among other veggies)  to use and both those work with that flavor vibe.  ❤️  

[Ali in OR]

Dh will head up to the airport late afternoon-ish to fetch first college kid home for Thanksgiving. He said, " Don't make anything for me--I'll eat on the road," and I answered, "I wasn't planning to!" So maybe I'll take disabled dd through a drive-thru. She likes car trips--that counts as a special trip for her.

We may be permanently converted to outdoor dining, not that we've done much of that. But we had a lovely dinner last weekend during rain showers under a restaurant's attached canopy and a heater. Great food, scattered heaters and fire tables, fresh outdoor air--it was great.

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

I nominated DS to cook tonight. Taco salad w/Navajo fry bread. It doesn't make sense but tastes so good and doubles as desert too. LOL.

This makes perfect sense. I make something similar because I had it at the American Indian museum food court. It’s bison chili over fried bread with generous toppings. Taco meat has so many similar spices that it must be a delicious variation. 

1 hour ago, MrsMommy said:

Chicken paprikash and homemade spaetzle...comfort food at its finest!

I haven’t made chicken paprikash in a long time. It’s one of those dishes I forget about them wonder why I don’t make it more often. My recipe is a little involved so I’ll save it for a freezing day. 

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

I wish we had that here!  Ds is so excited for going out to eat after he is fully vaccinated.  He hasn't been in a restaurant since March 4, 2020.

2020 or 2019?  I remember March 11, 2019 as the last day we did a normal, mask-free group activity. We were in rehearsals for a show at a convention the next week that was canceled. 😔

[Drama Llama]

18 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

Good question! Ummmm.... I just ate about 8 After Eights, does that count? 😂

No, you should eat a few more after 8’s.  It takes a full dozen to make a meal.

[MEmama]

2 minutes ago, Ali in OR said:

Dh will head up to the airport late afternoon-ish to fetch first college kid home for Thanksgiving. He said, " Don't make anything for me--I'll eat on the road," and I answered, "I wasn't planning to!" So maybe I'll take disabled dd through a drive-thru. She likes car trips--that counts as a special trip for her.

We may be permanently converted to outdoor dining, not that we've done much of that. But we had a lovely dinner last weekend during rain showers under a restaurant's attached canopy and a heater. Great food, scattered heaters and fire tables, fresh outdoor air--it was great.

We did that last night— wood fired pizza and excellent beer in the covered area of the beer garden of a local brewpub, surrounded by heaters and twinkly lights. It was 35 degrees but we were cozy and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. 🙂 

[HomeAgain]

Just now, KungFuPanda said:

2020 or 2019?  I remember March 11, 2019 as the last day we did a normal, mask-free group activity. We were in rehearsals for a show at a convention the next week that was canceled. 😔

I........I don't know anymore! 

We took ds to Disneyworld, right as the Wuhan thread here was gearing up. I thought he was 10, because we didn't do the dining plan so we could let him pick child or adult menu based on his hunger.  I had my reservations and felt uneasy about the trip after reading everything here, especially with how easily he gets sick sometimes.  So we stocked up on sanitizers, wipes, etc, but we still took the trip.  I wiped down EVERYTHING, right down to the hotel room every day before he was allowed to touch things.  March 4th was airport day, and we ate our last meal out at a burger/steakhouse before boarding.  The next day, ds came down with his normal, every year bug that knocked him flat on his rear for two weeks.  It took him a week of laying on the sofa and a week of struggling to get his energy and muscle tone back. The day he was able to actually get back on the ice everything shut down.  It wasn't covid, or at least he didn't have antibodies later when we were able to test. 

[KungFuPanda]

9 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I........I don't know anymore! 

We took ds to Disneyworld, right as the Wuhan thread here was gearing up. I thought he was 10, because we didn't do the dining plan so we could let him pick child or adult menu based on his hunger.  I had my reservations and felt uneasy about the trip after reading everything here, especially with how easily he gets sick sometimes.  So we stocked up on sanitizers, wipes, etc, but we still took the trip.  I wiped down EVERYTHING, right down to the hotel room every day before he was allowed to touch things.  March 4th was airport day, and we ate our last meal out at a burger/steakhouse before boarding.  The next day, ds came down with his normal, every year bug that knocked him flat on his rear for two weeks.  It took him a week of laying on the sofa and a week of struggling to get his energy and muscle tone back. The day he was able to actually get back on the ice everything shut down.  It wasn't covid, or at least he didn't have antibodies later when we were able to test. 

That wuhan thread started in 2019. We’ve been doing this for OVER two years now. It’s crazy-making. 

[Melissa in Australia]

So glad you all are not living where unvacvinated not being discriminated against. 

They are most definately are here 

Vaccination Rates are well over 90% double dose from 12 up 

It is absolutely awful. The unvacvinated  are no longer allowed to do anything except food shopping, they are no longer allowed to work in any job. some public toilets are closed to them, not allowed on school grounds,   not allowed into any public buildings people are being strongly encouraged to avoid talking to them, avoid contact with them. There are  covid marshels stationed outside shops checking vaccination status. 

Some areas, like mine have no covid cases at all and vaccination rate is 98% but the new enemy is the very few unvacvinated. Nobody cares about covid at all anymore

 

All of you keep on laughing and talking nonsense. 

Don't bother looking up and seeing what is happening in other parts of the world

Edited November 21, 2021 by Melissa in Australia

[MooCow]

Well, dh and youngest went to Sam's today for me, so we're eating the pumpkin pie I found at the grocer for dinner with the soup that my daughter made and saving the huge pie from Sam's for Thanksgiving.

[Selkie]

26 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

So glad you all are not living where unvacvinated not being discriminated against. 

They are most definately are here 

Vaccination Rates are well over 90% double dose from 12 up 

It is absolutely awful. The unvacvinated  are no longer allowed to do anything except food shopping, they are no longer allowed to work in any job. some public toilets are closed to them, not allowed on school grounds,   not allowed into any public buildings people are being strongly encouraged to avoid talking to them, avoid contact with them. There are  covid marshels stationed outside shops checking vaccination status. 

Some areas, like mine have no covid cases at all and vaccination rate is 98% but the new enemy is the very few unvacvinated. Nobody cares about covid at all anymore

 

All of you keep on laughing and talking nonsense. 

Don't bother looking up and seeing what is happening in other parts of the world

Consider yourself fortunate to live in an area where there is pressure on people to get vaccinated. I'm sure the 98% vaccination rate is the reason there is no Covid there. Where I live, there are many people who have chosen not get vaccinated, and guess what -  Covid is running rampant yet again and the hospitals are full. 

[Melissa in Australia]

5 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Consider yourself fortunate to live in an area where there is pressure on people to get vaccinated. I'm sure the 98% vaccination rate is the reason there is no Covid there. Where I live, there are many people who have chosen not get vaccinated, and guess what -  Covid is running rampant yet again and the hospitals are full. 

There has never been a covid case in my local area. 

I do not consider myself to be fortunate to live in an area that had no reason to discriminate against the very few people who made informed choice to not get vaccinated. 

My state government is right now trying to have laws changed so they can further discriminate the very few unvacvinated, including being able to lock them up, take property, fine businesses that allow them to purchase things astranomical amounts. 

Fully vaccinated people here are extremely concerned about the current situation.  Legal experts are concerned. Things are looking grim

Edited November 21, 2021 by Melissa in Australia

[HomeAgain]

6 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

There has never been a covid case in my local area. 

Why do you think that is?

[Melissa Louise]

40 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

So glad you all are not living where unvacvinated not being discriminated against. 

They are most definately are here 

Vaccination Rates are well over 90% double dose from 12 up 

It is absolutely awful. The unvacvinated  are no longer allowed to do anything except food shopping, they are no longer allowed to work in any job. some public toilets are closed to them, not allowed on school grounds,   not allowed into any public buildings people are being strongly encouraged to avoid talking to them, avoid contact with them. There are  covid marshels stationed outside shops checking vaccination status. 

Some areas, like mine have no covid cases at all and vaccination rate is 98% but the new enemy is the very few unvacvinated. Nobody cares about covid at all anymore

 

All of you keep on laughing and talking nonsense. 

Don't bother looking up and seeing what is happening in other parts of the world

It's not true that you can't work if unvaccinated. Not every industry has mandates. If it's been mandated, workers have a period of time to get vaccinated or look for alternative employment. I have two extended family members who are anti vax and both employed. 

After what I saw in Melbourne this week - Trump flags and literal gallows on the street - I'm not feeling inclined to give benefit of the doubt. 

 

[Selkie]

7 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

There has never been a covid case in my local area. 

Once upon a time, there were no Covid cases where I live, either. Now we're overrun with it because of people who won't get vaccinated.

[Melissa in Australia]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

It's not true that you can't work if unvaccinated. Not every industry has mandates. If it's been mandated, workers have a period of time to get vaccinated or look for alternative employment. I have two extended family members who are anti vax and both employed. 

After what I saw in Melbourne this week - Trump flags and literal gallows on the street - I'm not feeling inclined to give benefit of the doubt. 

 

What job in Victoria can be done without being vaccinated? 

[Melissa in Australia]

7 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Why do you think that is?

Because I live in Australia, cases are very low, Melbourne had the longest lockdown in the entire world. Until a very few months ago we were working on elimination.  

Edited November 21, 2021 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

What job in Victoria can be done without being vaccinated? 

Does Victoria have a state wide mandate for all industries?

Apologies if that's so. My anti vax family members work in NSW. 

Unvaxed friends work from home doing copywriting. Another vaxed friend has trouble insisting on vaxed home help, so that job is still being done unvaxed. Many labour jobs look the other way. 

There's a conversation to be had re work, but not when there are gallows on the streets. When the anti vax movement backs away from threatening to hang politicians, then the conversation can be had. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[Melissa in Australia]

I am pretty sure that there is a state wide mandate for all jobs

[Melissa in Australia]

The protests are not about anti vax but rather the pandemic law changes

there are  professional protesters or whatever they are called going to the protests as well with their radical ideas and one idiot with gallows for a short time. Of course that has become the focus of the media instead of the pandemic legislation changes that the premier was trying to sneak  through parliament. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I am pretty sure that there is a state wide mandate for all jobs

My apologies then. 

I'd suggest getting vaccinated, not because it's a plot to keep you out of heaven ( my whack job relatives) or because it is 100% guaranteed the best thing ever, but because elimination is finished in AU, and you're at more risk from Covid than the vaccine, and because if Covid does come to your area, and it could, I would not like to think of you or your family getting seriously ill or worse. 

[Melissa in Australia]

I never said my vaccination status

Edited November 21, 2021 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Melissa in Australia said:

The protests are not about anti vax but rather the pandemic law changes

there are  professional protesters or whatever they are called going to the protests as well with their radical ideas and one idiot with gallows for a short time. Of course that has become the focus of the media instead of the pandemic legislation changes that the premier was trying to seek through parliament. 

The Venn diagram of anti vaxers and anti pandemic bill protestors is almost a perfect circle. 

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I never said I wasn't 

If you're vaccinated, then what is the problem? I honestly don't get it. Vaccination plus lets us stay open and keep working. 

[cbollin]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

That wuhan thread started in 2019. We’ve been doing this for OVER two years now. It’s crazy-making. 

It was started in January 2020.    so almost two years...  but it all blends together. close enough. right?

in other conversation...

originally plans for supper involved outdoor grilling.  but the rain didn't stop. so we don't know  yet.  tomato soup and grilled cheese sounds good tonight.