Assumptions about gender

[Terabith]

My oldest kid is non-binary.  When I refer to them, I am always very careful to use they/ them pronouns and terms like, "my kid" or "my child."  Their name is Lyrium or Lyr (pronounced like King Lear).  I find it interesting that every single time other people respond with he/ him or "your son."  

[TheReader]

One of my children has recently told me they are non-binary, but they haven't declared yet as to whether they strictly prefer they/them or are still okay with he/him; it's an adjustment for me for sure to start thinking of them as not my son. I explained, and they were understanding of, the fact that, "Look, kid, I love you and accept you and support you and nothing will ever change that, but for x # of yrs I've been the mom of 3 boys, so it may take me a minute to catch up to this new information, and it doesn't mean I don't love you or accept this, it just means my brain is old and having trouble keeping up."  

Interestingly, their screen name is Lyronis, which I only mention because of the similarity of your child's name (which now I'm so curious if that is your child's given name on their birth certificate or the name they've chosen for themselves, and now makes me wonder if there's a connection; when we all signed our patio last summer, my child signed "Lyronis or Lyron" rather than their given name and the similarity to Lyrium/Lyr is striking). 

They have started shaving their legs and I just want to die because here I am wishing I could skip that, but there they are choosing to do it; it kind of cracks me up. Ah, kids. 

I do think adults tend to, and always will for a while until our kids are the "adults," assume gender; it's just ingrained. I don't think it's malicious or ill intentioned, in most cases, it's just our brains catching up. Not until recently did I ever even encounter this concept of asking someone what their preferred pronouns are, and particularly if someone presents fairly strongly one way or the other, then the "obvious" pronoun just comes out. Or if it's people who know your child and are adjusting; it can take some time. Keep repeating/correcting as needed.  (in our family it's more complicated b/c the child hasn't shared yet with dh that they identify this way; I've told them to let me know when they are ready to share and I will help with that conversation). 

[TheReader]

*although mine pronounces their Lyr like the instrument, not like King Lear. 

[Tiberia]

I would say most people I know are unaware of they/them as pronouns of choice. Most of my people are confused when "they" is used as singular because we've had grammar rules drilled into our heads. The only people I know who have awareness are those who have non-binary kids/friends, or people in college (where it is becoming standard to state your preferred pronouns). 

I would try to not take it personally, but just gently educate as you go. I think you did this in your post above. 😀

Edited August 11, 2021 by Tiberia

[Ethel Mertz]

Yes, we’re dealing with the same thing in our house. Our kid changes pronouns on a weekly basis. Kid also hasn’t figured out sexual orientation. Kid heads off to college next week.

[Terabith]

10 minutes ago, TheReader said:

One of my children has recently told me they are non-binary, but they haven't declared yet as to whether they strictly prefer they/them or are still okay with he/him; it's an adjustment for me for sure to start thinking of them as not my son. I explained, and they were understanding of, the fact that, "Look, kid, I love you and accept you and support you and nothing will ever change that, but for x # of yrs I've been the mom of 3 boys, so it may take me a minute to catch up to this new information, and it doesn't mean I don't love you or accept this, it just means my brain is old and having trouble keeping up."  

Interestingly, their screen name is Lyronis, which I only mention because of the similarity of your child's name (which now I'm so curious if that is your child's given name on their birth certificate or the name they've chosen for themselves, and now makes me wonder if there's a connection; when we all signed our patio last summer, my child signed "Lyronis or Lyron" rather than their given name and the similarity to Lyrium/Lyr is striking). 

They have started shaving their legs and I just want to die because here I am wishing I could skip that, but there they are choosing to do it; it kind of cracks me up. Ah, kids. 

I do think adults tend to, and always will for a while until our kids are the "adults," assume gender; it's just ingrained. I don't think it's malicious or ill intentioned, in most cases, it's just our brains catching up. Not until recently did I ever even encounter this concept of asking someone what their preferred pronouns are, and particularly if someone presents fairly strongly one way or the other, then the "obvious" pronoun just comes out. Or if it's people who know your child and are adjusting; it can take some time. Keep repeating/correcting as needed.  (in our family it's more complicated b/c the child hasn't shared yet with dh that they identify this way; I've told them to let me know when they are ready to share and I will help with that conversation). 

My kid has been out for almost two years now.  Lyr/ Lyrium was not the name we gave them at birth, but we did a legal name change.  They chose it.  I'll admit; it's been hella hard.  I am so incredibly sad about losing the name that I had named them.  It hurts so darn much.  But, studies are pretty clear on parental acceptance and names/ pronouns.  And I figure, if they change their mind, they can change their name back.  It's just time and a bit of money.  

What's hard for me is the fact that they want top surgery.  

I totally understand people making assumptions when they are interacting with my kid.  Frankly, they still present pretty feminine.  I just find it interesting that the assumption when there is no physical appearance to base anything on is always male.  

I'm here for anyone going through this who wants to talk about it.  

[Carrie12345]

20 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My oldest kid is non-binary.  When I refer to them, I am always very careful to use they/ them pronouns and terms like, "my kid" or "my child."  Their name is Lyrium or Lyr (pronounced like King Lear).  I find it interesting that every single time other people respond with he/ him or "your son."  

I feel like my brain recognizes the use of they/them a million times better than my dang mouth does.

But I’m fairly cautious about assuming when it comes to names, regardless of anything else. My whole life I’ve had lots of same name, different gender people around me, including having a kid with an all-genders name.

[Danae]

Are you saying you’re surprised that people assume male from the name?  Because Llyr is a historically masculine name.  They probably assume it’s a variant spelling.

[TheReader]

8 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My kid has been out for almost two years now.  Lyr/ Lyrium was not the name we gave them at birth, but we did a legal name change.  They chose it.  I'll admit; it's been hella hard.  I am so incredibly sad about losing the name that I had named them.  It hurts so darn much.  But, studies are pretty clear on parental acceptance and names/ pronouns.  And I figure, if they change their mind, they can change their name back.  It's just time and a bit of money.  

What's hard for me is the fact that they want top surgery.  

I totally understand people making assumptions when they are interacting with my kid.  Frankly, they still present pretty feminine.  I just find it interesting that the assumption when there is no physical appearance to base anything on is always male.  

I'm here for anyone going through this who wants to talk about it.  

re: assuming male, I wonder if that's partly due to media, literature, etc., with "he/him" always being the default used in writing? Never is the default "she/her" and it's so ingrained in us when we don't know the gender, default male. Why on earth is that?  (rhetorical; who knows)

My child hasn't asked about surgery or anything like that yet. That would be hard. For sure. I can't imagine. I do hope they will be comfortable enough to be out even with their dad, though; it saddens me they aren't.  And I am sure losing the name would be difficult, too; so far my child seems content with using their other name as their D&D, online persona, and sticking to the name we gave them in person. But that could be a side effect of not being out to dad yet. I don't know how I'll process that if/when they decide to ditch the name we gave them. 

(((hugs))) It's definitely a lot. 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, TheReader said:

re: assuming male, I wonder if that's partly due to media, literature, etc., with "he/him" always being the default used in writing? Never is the default "she/her" and it's so ingrained in us when we don't know the gender, default male. Why on earth is that?  (rhetorical; who knows)

My child hasn't asked about surgery or anything like that yet. That would be hard. For sure. I can't imagine. I do hope they will be comfortable enough to be out even with their dad, though; it saddens me they aren't.  And I am sure losing the name would be difficult, too; so far my child seems content with using their other name as their D&D, online persona, and sticking to the name we gave them in person. But that could be a side effect of not being out to dad yet. I don't know how I'll process that if/when they decide to ditch the name we gave them. 

(((hugs))) It's definitely a lot. 

A lot of times when I'm on the phone, I haven't even used their name.  It's just "my kid" and they/ them.  I mostly just find it interesting that male is always the assumption, even when there are no clues or indications of that.  

[JustEm]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

A lot of times when I'm on the phone, I haven't even used their name.  It's just "my kid" and they/ them.  I mostly just find it interesting that male is always the assumption, even when there are no clues or indications of that.  

that is fascinating.  Are the conversations about things that might be generally associated with males.  For ex, all my children do martial arts. One child in particular is a huge fan of MMA fighting. When talking about it I've had people ask if dh and I are comfortable with 'him' fighting.  Well the child interested in fighting isn't a him but I understand because of society why they would assume that.  I just correct them and move on.

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

that is fascinating.  Are the conversations about things that might be generally associated with males.  For ex, all my children do martial arts. One child in particular is a huge fan of MMA fighting. When talking about it I've had people ask if dh and I are comfortable with 'him' fighting.  Well the child interested in fighting isn't a him but I understand because of society why they would assume that.  I just correct them and move on.

No, they've been things like calling the pediatrician's office to see about getting (another) copy of vaccines to send to the school or setting up driver's ed.  So, pretty gender neutral topics.  

[Junie]

It might just be as simple as using the masculine pronoun when gender is unknown.  This has been acceptable in formal writing for centuries, so I think it might be the way our brains default.

[OH_Homeschooler]

 

Quote

I just find it interesting that the assumption when there is no physical appearance to base anything on is always male.  

When I was getting my degree in social psychology, I remember learning that the default assumption when you say "person" is a white male. I do not have a cite for this and it was a long time ago. It just stuck with me.

Edited August 11, 2021 by OH_Homeschooler
I quoted the wrong thing

[JustEm]

1 minute ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

When I was getting my degree in social psychology, I remember learning that the default assumption when you say "person" is a white male. I do not have a cite for this and it was a long time ago. It just stuck with me.

 Interesting

4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

No, they've been things like calling the pediatrician's office to see about getting (another) copy of vaccines to send to the school or setting up driver's ed.  So, pretty gender neutral topics.  

But in those circumstances they would have the child's name right? Because your child's name is known as a masculine name so I would assume that is why they would refer to them as him. If it is prior to you giving them the name for them to look the info up then it is likely just an autopilot response. Still fascinating.

[Kanin]

I find myself defaulting to "he" things, like saying, "Hey guys!" when it's a mixed group. I never say "Hey ladies!" because it annoys me when other people say it. There are other examples that I can't bring to mind right now. I dislike defaulting to "he" but I catch myself doing it 😞

[Terabith]

17 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 Interesting

But in those circumstances they would have the child's name right? Because your child's name is known as a masculine name so I would assume that is why they would refer to them as him. If it is prior to you giving them the name for them to look the info up then it is likely just an autopilot response. Still fascinating.

Pediatrician's office has child's name (which, I've never heard of anyone with the name Lyrium before, so I guess I don't have a masculine assumption with it?).  Driver's ed did not yet have name.  I have had other encounters where no name had been given.  But yes, it's mostly the fact that the assumption, when there is no context (name or physical appearance and references to "my child"), the default is always male.  

[Arcadia]

38 minutes ago, Terabith said:

A lot of times when I'm on the phone, I haven't even used their name.  It's just "my kid" and they/ them.  I mostly just find it interesting that male is always the assumption, even when there are no clues or indications of that.  

I think that may be due to societal norms in Asia for my generation. We were told by our elders that its safer to mistake a female for a male, than vice versa. 
I looked like a boy as a kid and often gets called boy. When I was in engineering school, people would answer my emails and chat assuming I am a male because my school account starts with ENG for engineering school. 

[KSera]

I find the hardest things the ones where we just don’t have a good gender neutral word. there’s the whole having to say my kid/my child instead of my son/my daughter, which is okay in some circumstances, but in others it feels inappropriately infantilizing to refer to my adult kid that way. But then we recently realized we don’t have a term for aunt and uncle that’s non-gendered, and they will need one. I admit it makes me a bit sad that this particular kid defaults to male for any of those things that don’t have a neutral. So, they decided they could just be uncle. It has been the case in general that male seems to be their assumed neutral, like the default. Maybe it’s just that non-binary kids tend to go with whatever is the opposite of their birth sex when in that situation. like the leg shaving thing. And I don’t know why it is that top surgery is so common among female non-binary people, since again, it seems to assume the male chest as the neutral, default. I wish that weren’t the case, as there’s no reason to think the male standard is the one everything else should be based on (yes, I realize someone could go there with Adam and Eve as their explanation, but that doesn’t work for me as a current explanation for it. Male is not the default human form. 

[Not_a_Number]

19 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I find myself defaulting to "he" things, like saying, "Hey guys!" when it's a mixed group. I never say "Hey ladies!" because it annoys me when other people say it. There are other examples that I can't bring to mind right now. I dislike defaulting to "he" but I catch myself doing it 😞

I've seen the argument that "Hey, guys!" is actually gender neutral. The word "guys" is actually filling in an important grammatical role -- the plural "you" pronoun. English doesn't have that, unlike many languages (think 'vous' in French), and languages kind of need them. That's why many regions have their own ways to say that... like y'all in Texas 🙂 . 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've seen the argument that "Hey, guys!" is actually gender neutral. The word "guys" is actually filling in an important grammatical role -- the plural "you" pronoun. English doesn't have that, unlike many languages (think 'vous' in French), and languages kind of need them. That's why many regions have their own ways to say that... like y'all in Texas 🙂 . 

“Guys” in that context is definitely neutral where I am. I use “you guys” or “hi, guys” or whatever even for a group that I know is only women.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

“Guys” in that context is definitely neutral where I am. I use “you guys” or “hi, guys” or whatever even for a group that I know is only women.

Yes, same in NYC and anywhere I've been in the Northeast. Also in the Bay Area, last I checked. 

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I find the hardest things the ones where we just don’t have a good gender neutral word. there’s the whole having to say my kid/my child instead of my son/my daughter, which is okay in some circumstances, but in others it feels inappropriately infantilizing to refer to my adult kid that way. But then we recently realized we don’t have a term for aunt and uncle that’s non-gendered, and they will need one. I admit it makes me a bit sad that this particular kid defaults to male for any of those things that don’t have a neutral. So, they decided they could just be uncle. It has been the case in general that male seems to be their assumed neutral, like the default. Maybe it’s just that non-binary kids tend to go with whatever is the opposite of their birth sex when in that situation. like the leg shaving thing. And I don’t know why it is that top surgery is so common among female non-binary people, since again, it seems to assume the male chest as the neutral, default. I wish that weren’t the case, as there’s no reason to think the male standard is the one everything else should be based on (yes, I realize someone could go there with Adam and Eve as their explanation, but that doesn’t work for me as a current explanation for it. Male is not the default human form. 

Yeah, it really is challenging.  My understanding is that nibling is the gender neutral term for niece/ nephew.  My trans parent group says that Pibling is the term for aunt/ uncle, but I would have a hard time using that as a replacement for "Auntie Jess," for instance. 

I kind of get the top surgery thing for my kid.  They have major dysphoria that is specifically br*st related.  I think that's the primary driver for all of this.  I have actually wondered if it is specifically body dysphoria rather than gender dysphoria, and I feel like the pendulum has swung from too much gate keeping when my friends from college were transitioning to not enough gate keeping now.  I've decided that 1) we don't take any steps on surgery until they talk to a therapist who actually specializes in gender issues.  We are on a waiting list.  And 2) I have decided that I will not make any surgery related phone calls.  I've done all the heavy lifting on the name change, even though it's been incredibly hard for me.  Surgery couldn't possibly occur until next summer, and I think they need to make the phone calls to facilitate it.  My kid is very top heavy....a DD on a slender frame, so binders and sports bras don't really help all that much, plus they have major sensory issues.  (I am also very intrigued by the correlation between ASD spectrum and gender issues.  My oldest does not have an ASD diagnosis, and in their younger years I would never ever have suspected it, but their sister does, and the older they get, the more I wonder if it's possible that oldest might be on the spectrum as well.)  

It was odd for us, because growing up, this child was heavy duty pink/ purple, frilly dresses, ballet, playing with Barbies and makeup and fingernail polish.  Just pretty stereotypically feminine, which surprised me as a young mother who assumed nurture had a lot to do with such things and I am...not stereotypically female.  Mostly in the sense that I'm lazy and have no interest in a lot of things that are typically stereotyped as female.  I had a strong identity as mother, but gender had never seemed particularly important or relevant to me.  It all seemed sudden and dramatic.  And even now, kid has a fairly gender neutral haircut, but still really likes makeup and fingernail polish and pretty dresses, but the dysphoria and anxiety about boobs gets in the way.  

I agree about "guys" being a pretty gender neutral term, although I'm trying to replace it more with terms like "folks" and "peeps" in my conversation.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Move here?

Every form here (doctors, school, etc.) has preferred pronouns questions. People often byline their info with preferred pronouns. They/them is super easy for people to use here; I hear zir/ze/zim much less frequently but it pops up occasionally.

I have two friends with adult kids in transition, one is having top surgery this month after a couple of years in binders. 
 

The only people who don’t seem to pick up on pronouns here are either over 60 or purposefully being obtuse.
 

 

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

A lot of times when I'm on the phone, I haven't even used their name.  It's just "my kid" and they/ them.  I mostly just find it interesting that male is always the assumption, even when there are no clues or indications of that.  

I’ve noticed most people respond that way in your posts, too. I always wonder how you feel about it, but didn’t figure it was polite to ask. 

[KSera]

57 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, it really is challenging.  My understanding is that nibling is the gender neutral term for niece/ nephew.  My trans parent group says that Pibling is the term for aunt/ uncle, but I would have a hard time using that as a replacement for "Auntie Jess," for instance. 

I kind of get the top surgery thing for my kid.  They have major dysphoria that is specifically br*st related.  I think that's the primary driver for all of this.  I have actually wondered if it is specifically body dysphoria rather than gender dysphoria, and I feel like the pendulum has swung from too much gate keeping when my friends from college were transitioning to not enough gate keeping now.  I've decided that 1) we don't take any steps on surgery until they talk to a therapist who actually specializes in gender issues.  We are on a waiting list.  And 2) I have decided that I will not make any surgery related phone calls.  I've done all the heavy lifting on the name change, even though it's been incredibly hard for me.  Surgery couldn't possibly occur until next summer, and I think they need to make the phone calls to facilitate it.  My kid is very top heavy....a DD on a slender frame, so binders and sports bras don't really help all that much, plus they have major sensory issues.  (I am also very intrigued by the correlation between ASD spectrum and gender issues.  My oldest does not have an ASD diagnosis, and in their younger years I would never ever have suspected it, but their sister does, and the older they get, the more I wonder if it's possible that oldest might be on the spectrum as well.)  

 

Yeah, the nibling thing just isn't happening here. None of us (nb kid included) like that term at all, and this is the first I've heard pibling, and that is even worse to me for some reason 😳. If people want new words, can't they pick some better ones that that?

We have the same chest bdd thing as instigating factor, and exactly the same scenario with the ASD. Sibling has ASD, and never thought about it for oldest, but the older they get, the more on the spectrum they seem. Sensory issues have been an issue since childhood, though. FWIW, if I had to choose between my kid wearing a binder for life or having the surgery, I would definitely pick the surgery, because binders are really damaging to the body. It's one of the things that bothers me about the fact that they are given away as freebies at events to trans kids, and that their are charities celebrated for mailing them in unmarked packages to kids, etc. They cause harm and I don't think they should be sent to kids like they are a positive, healthy thing. (I just realized it's kind of ironic I'm saying binders are damaging to the body when surgery clearly is as well, and surgery is removing function at the same time, but I'm saying in an omniscient world where I knew my kid was going to bind the rest of their life and never want to use their breasts for anything at all. Top surgery actually has lots of collateral damage in addition to losing the ability to breastfeed, as far as losing any erogenous sensation and potential for losing all sensation in that area entirely.) Obviously, none of this is any part of my decision for my adult child.

12 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Move here?

Every form here (doctors, school, etc.) has preferred pronouns questions. People often byline their info with preferred pronouns. They/them is super easy for people to use here; I hear zir/ze/zim much less frequently but it pops up occasionally.

I have two friends with adult kids in transition, one is having top surgery this month after a couple of years in binders. 
 

The only people who don’t seem to pick up on pronouns here are either over 60 or purposefully being obtuse.
 

 

This is the way here as well. I don't actually agree that not picking up on they/them is only in people over 60 or people being purposefully obtuse. We end up with confusion here frequently, where we don't know if just one kid or multiple of them are being referred to. It's a real thing and we haven't found a way around it other than using kid's name in place of pronoun in those cases. Without enough context, it can be quite ambigous at times.

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've seen the argument that "Hey, guys!" is actually gender neutral. The word "guys" is actually filling in an important grammatical role -- the plural "you" pronoun. English doesn't have that, unlike many languages (think 'vous' in French), and languages kind of need them. That's why many regions have their own ways to say that... like y'all in Texas 🙂 . 

Maybe I'll just say "folks"! 🙂 

[Terabith]

19 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I’ve noticed most people respond that way in your posts, too. I always wonder how you feel about it, but didn’t figure it was polite to ask. 

I am fine with asking.  I always appreciate it when people use they/ them, but I know a lot of people here remember my child as my daughter, too, so I am not upset when they use she/ her pronouns.  I don't get upset about he/ him pronouns either.  It's more that I find it interesting from a linguistic and sociological assumption.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yeah, the nibling thing just isn't happening here. None of us (nb kid included) like that term at all, and this is the first I've heard pibling, and that is even worse to me for some reason 😳. If people want new words, can't they pick some better ones that that?

 

Nibling makes me think of, well, nibbling. Pibling sounds like some unholy mishmash of "sibling" and "puberty." Ugh. 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Nibling makes me think of, well, nibbling.

Exactly.

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yeah, the nibling thing just isn't happening here. None of us (nb kid included) like that term at all, and this is the first I've heard pibling, and that is even worse to me for some reason 😳. If people want new words, can't they pick some better ones that that?

We have the same chest bdd thing as instigating factor, and exactly the same scenario with the ASD. Sibling has ASD, and never thought about it for oldest, but the older they get, the more on the spectrum they seem. Sensory issues have been an issue since childhood, though. FWIW, if I had to choose between my kid wearing a binder for life or having the surgery, I would definitely pick the surgery, because binders are really damaging to the body. It's one of the things that bothers me about the fact that they are given away as freebies at events to trans kids, and that their are charities celebrated for mailing them in unmarked packages to kids, etc. They cause harm and I don't think they should be sent to kids like they are a positive, healthy thing. (I just realized it's kind of ironic I'm saying binders are damaging to the body when surgery clearly is as well, and surgery is removing function at the same time, but I'm saying in an omniscient world where I knew my kid was going to bind the rest of their life and never want to use their breasts for anything at all. Top surgery actually has lots of collateral damage in addition to losing the ability to breastfeed, as far as losing any erogenous sensation and potential for losing all sensation in that area entirely.) Obviously, none of this is any part of my decision for my adult child.

This is the way here as well. I don't actually agree that not picking up on they/them is only in people over 60 or people being purposefully obtuse. We end up with confusion here frequently, where we don't know if just one kid or multiple of them are being referred to. It's a real thing and we haven't found a way around it other than using kid's name in place of pronoun in those cases. Without enough context, it can be quite ambigous at times.

I agree.  I do not like the term nibling or pibling myself at all.  It sounds stupid and infantilizing somehow.  

I know I come at top surgery from a different place than most people, because I was a K cup for most of my life.  Super duper large br*sts often do not have much sensation, and that was the case for me.  I had reduction surgery because of actual, physical damage that was occurring.  You can see on x-rays the damage that heavy boobs caused to my vertebrae.  I had 11 pounds of br*st tissue removed, and I'm still a DD, but of course, removing that removed function.  I had resisted reduction surgery until I was pretty sure I was done having kids because nursing was so important to me.  Doctors started pressuring me to have the surgery done when I was 12, so I knew early on that nursing was important.  My oldest currently has no desire to have children, although I hope that changes as they get older.  I do not really expect it to, though.  My youngest doesn't like small children.  My oldest has long expressed a desire to remain childless because of climate change and worries about what sort of world having kids would bring them into.  Anyway, as someone who did have function removed, I don't have the same aversion to it as others might.  I was okay with binder use for short term periods, but I agree, they are concerning for long term usage.  My worry about surgery is that it is so permanent.  I don't exactly feel like this is a phase, but I do feel like their brain has not fully developed, and they haven't maintained the identity through changes in social environments.  I'd really prefer them to wait at least a few more years, but I also do not want them living with continual distress if it can be easily avoided.  It's just a dilemma.  

[prairiewindmomma]

I think I was referring to people who have been told the preferred pronoun (either directly or indirectly) continuing to use the gender assumed at birth pronoun.

[Lecka]

My son called someone “Captain Jess” last year.  This was a non-binary person who helped with stage crew at the high school.

It’s easy enough!

Apparently there was some drama with another teacher wanting use of an honorific but not a good term to use.  

We moved last summer, and went from a high school where we never heard of this, to one where it is on the common side.  So we are still new to it for sure!

 

Edit: I think there is still a lot of unknowns, and I am hearing 3rd hand about preferences — so I feel free to cut myself a lot of slack.  

Edited August 11, 2021 by Lecka

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My worry about surgery is that it is so permanent.  I don't exactly feel like this is a phase, but I do feel like their brain has not fully developed, and they haven't maintained the identity through changes in social environments.  I'd really prefer them to wait at least a few more years, but I also do not want them living with continual distress if it can be easily avoided.  It's just a dilemma.  

I think waiting is very wise. This isn't a locked in stone thing, and kids can feel certain they will always feel a certain way about something (wanting kids, for example) and later have it turn out quite different. I think your decision to not do any of the lifting for this part of things makes very good sense. I think for a permanent decision as big as this, someone should be able to show the maturity to be able to take care of arrangements themself. It was actually something that produced maturity in my kid, as they always had me take care of anything like this for them, but this was motivating enough that they did things they had never done before (phone calls, talking to insurance company, appointments, etc. Unfortunately, it really didn't result in improved mental health, even though they are happy with it. They are actually functioning worse than they were before surgery.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, Kanin said:

I find myself defaulting to "he" things, like saying, "Hey guys!" when it's a mixed group. I never say "Hey ladies!" because it annoys me when other people say it. There are other examples that I can't bring to mind right now. I dislike defaulting to "he" but I catch myself doing it 😞

Where I come from (big city in the Southwest US), "Hey, guys" has been gender neutral for at least 3 decades, probably 4 or more.

[Dmmetler]

36 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Nibling makes me think of, well, nibbling. Pibling sounds like some unholy mishmash of "sibling" and "puberty." Ugh. 

Nibling reminds me of corn-niblets, I guess. Pibling sounds like an Addams Family name in a spin-off. I can't take it seriously.  In some ways it's easier with my nephew who, until about a year ago, was my niece, because we could just swap terms and be fine, but it's harder with the NB kids in the mix. 

 

I've used Y'all for years-I'm in the South, so it's accepted here. Of course, I'm also likely to use "Honey", when talking to a student, especially in the days when I had 800 of them, and had a lot of names to learn, and at least here, that's basically gender neutral, too. 

 

 

[Farrar]

People are so stuck on their initial assumptions that it's really, really hard to get them past it, even without throwing nonbinary into the mix. Like, when my kid was little and people thought he was a girl, I'd be standing there saying, HE is a boy, actually. And they'd literally go, uh-huh, she blah blah blah. And I'd be like Actually HE is male. And they'd just keep talking. Not out of some statement on gender or whatever, but because people do not listen and get really stuck.

[goldenecho]

4 hours ago, Terabith said:

My oldest kid is non-binary.  When I refer to them, I am always very careful to use they/ them pronouns and terms like, "my kid" or "my child."  Their name is Lyrium or Lyr (pronounced like King Lear).  I find it interesting that every single time other people respond with he/ him or "your son."  

It's not to offend, it's just that we've had English teachers drill it into us that that's bad grammar...and it used to be.  

I really wish we had come up with a different pronoun than "they" because it still bugs me to call a singular person "they"...it just feels wrong.   If I see it used and I don't know the context I usually assume it's someone who learned English as a 2nd language, and my inclination is to be helpful and correct it.  My first through is not "non-gender specific pronoun."  Maybe some day it will start to feel normal but this is all still very new. 

(I really wish the movement for inclusion had gone with something like "ey" in stead, even if it did sound a little like a Cockney accent...something not plural.   Cause our grammar is already so confusing and this will not help make it easier).

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by goldenecho

[bibiche]

4 hours ago, TheReader said:

*although mine pronounces their Lyr like the instrument, not like King Lear. 

What?! I thought the instrument *was* pronounced like Lear. Awkward!

[Tanaqui]

No, the instrument rhymes with "liar". As seen in this quote: http://www.discworldquotes.tumblr.com/post/100452529538/thats-a-harp-hes-playing-nobby-said-one-of

[Drama Llama]

8 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

No, the instrument rhymes with "liar". As seen in this quote: http://www.discworldquotes.tumblr.com/post/100452529538/thats-a-harp-hes-playing-nobby-said-one-of

Isn't the instrument actually pronounced the same as "liar" and rhymes with "fire"?  

 

[Tanaqui]

I direct you now to this quote: https://simpsonswiki.com/wiki/Lady

Marge Simpson asks how he came up with so many rhyming words. Ergo, soundalikes are also rhymes. Are you gonna argue with Marge Simpson?

[TheReader]

1 hour ago, bibiche said:

What?! I thought the instrument *was* pronounced like Lear. Awkward!

Well, you had me second guessing myself, and then I scrolled down, so hopefully I'm not wrong. 

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

No, the instrument rhymes with "liar". As seen in this quote: http://www.discworldquotes.tumblr.com/post/100452529538/thats-a-harp-hes-playing-nobby-said-one-of

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Isn't the instrument actually pronounced the same as "liar" and rhymes with "fire"?  

 

And also, isn't this the same thing that Tanaqui said? Because now I'm confused again.....in my head, "liar", "lyre",  and "fire" all sound alike/rhyme. Is that not the case.....? 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by TheReader

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, TheReader said:

And also, isn't this the same thing that Tanaqui said? Because now I'm confused again.....in my head, "liar", "lyre",  and "fire" all sound alike/rhyme. Is that not the case.....? 

 

So, the definition of rhyme in my mind is that the words have different onsets and the same rimes.  That is that the pronunciation of the part of the word before the accented vowel is different, and the part from the accented vowel to the end of the word is pronounced the same.

Whereas, two words where both the onset and the rime are the same would be homophones.  Like I wouldn't say that new and knew were rhymes, because they sound exactly the same. Same with red and read or two and too and dye and die.   Liar and lyre sound exactly the same to me.  

Having said that, when I look at definitions, it just said the ends are the same, so maybe the onset part is just in my head and Marge Simpson is right. 

[TheReader]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, the definition of rhyme in my mind is that the words have different onsets and the same rimes.  That is that the pronunciation of the part of the word before the accented vowel is different, and the part from the accented vowel to the end of the word is pronounced the same.

Whereas, two words where both the onset and the rime are the same would be homophones.  Like I wouldn't say that new and knew were rhymes, because they sound exactly the same. Same with red and read or two and too and dye and die.   Liar and lyre sound exactly the same to me.  

Having said that, when I look at definitions, it just said the ends are the same, so maybe the onset part is just in my head and Marge Simpson is right. 

Oh, that makes sense. 

Maybe homophones are a subset of rhymes? Kind of like squares and rectangles.....? A square is a rectangle, a rectangle is not a square; a homophone is also a rhyme, a rhyme is not necessarily a homophone.  Maybe??? 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, TheReader said:

Oh, that makes sense. 

Maybe homophones are a subset of rhymes? Kind of like squares and rectangles.....? A square is a rectangle, a rectangle is not a square; a homophone is also a rhyme, a rhyme is not necessarily a homophone.  Maybe??? 

Could be. 

[Tanaqui]

I was being a little facetious, I know that words that are pronounced identically don't rhyme - or, at least, most people wouldn't seriously consider that they do except for a joke or if they really, really, REALLY were out of options for a poem!

Dragging this onto the topic, OP, it may make sense to say explicitly "My child, Lyr, who uses the pronouns they/them and is nonbinary" before people have a chance to get this idea that Lyr is your son. Of course, that's a mouthful and sounds a bit... it sounds like a lot of a lot, y'know?

[Drama Llama]

I see this too, and I think it's interesting.

I use a lot of gender neutral language when I'm talking about my own children or students on social media.  So, for example, if I'm in an special education group on facebook, looking for suggestions for apps to accommodate a specific combination of disabilities, I might switch the child's gender, or use they/them in hopes of making it less likely that the child is identifiable.  Or if I'm looking for a suggestion for a local restaurant, (preCovid) I might post on a neighborhood forum "my kid wants to try Burmese food, any good local recommendations?" because his gender is irrelevant.

But it's always interesting to me what assumptions people will make about gender in their responses.  If I post about my kid who likes to cook, the assumption is always female.  If I post about legos or woodworking, it's always male.  Those assumptions make me a little sad, but they don't surprise me.  What's more interesting to me is that when I recently went looking for information about local soccer and lacrosse, and kept forgetting that in this case gender did matter, I got a lot of links to camps and teams and programs that were just for girls, and none for boys till I clarified.  I don't know what to make of it.  Maybe just coincidence and the first reply were the mothers of a girls and people assumed based on that that we were talking about a girl?  

[saraha]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

Unfortunately, it really didn't result in improved mental health, even though they are happy with it. They are actually functioning worse than they were before surgery.

i am so sorry about that
I am so worried about this. I keep talking to my kids about how God made all of us with our unique likes, talents, interests and that it is our job to figure out how we fit into the world the way God designed it in the body God gave us as that will help to ensure we are in his will. There is so much room in the world for people to present to the world anyway they want, and that we are ultimately more happy when we learn to be comfortable with who we are (whether we are biologically female presenting as male etc). I am so afraid they will make a permanent change only to find out they went through that and are still uncomfortable because it wasn’t their body all along that was the problem.

Edited August 11, 2021 by saraha

[Excelsior! Academy]

9 hours ago, Terabith said:

My oldest kid is non-binary.  When I refer to them, I am always very careful to use they/ them pronouns and terms like, "my kid" or "my child."  Their name is Lyrium or Lyr (pronounced like King Lear).  I find it interesting that every single time other people respond with he/ him or "your son."  

Disclaimer:  I have not read the entire thread, but I wonder if it's because of tradition.  Traditionally if one did not know the gender of a person one would refer to masculine pronouns. Example: Mankind, etc.

9 hours ago, Tiberia said:

I would say most people I know are unaware of they/them as pronouns of choice. Most of my people are confused when "they" is used as singular because we've had grammar rules drilled into our heads. The only people I know who have awareness are those who have non-binary kids/friends, or people in college (where it is becoming standard to state your preferred pronouns). 

***snip****

Editing, mine.  Yes!  Using they for a singular person is a new concept.