Can we talk about 5 year olds?

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Oh that's funny. I'd give him the toy first, since ANYONE wants their happy meal toy first (hello) and then when he gets done playing with it and is hungry he can come back and be civilized.

You said immature (or whatever you said) and I took that to mean minor. Once you're into not a minor, this really odd behavior. 

Well I find young 20 somethings to be well young.  Not everyone knows things intuitively or even knows where to go to for help.  Minor vs not minor is not some magic switch.  

[EKS]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Don't set the kid up for lying...

Exactly.  This is easy.  Take away the toy(s) and then give them to the kid(s) when they have done everything they are supposed to do.

[Scarlett]

I just watched one of the Ross Green videos. That was excellent.  I sent it to sitter. 

[SKL]

Goodness.  The fact that they thought picking up rice from the floor was a good idea suggests the sitter is either really immature or ... something worse.

If the sitter is really open to suggestions, I suggest a total reboot.  Try really hard for a positive perspective.  Never demand something unnecessary of this child (I mean who cares when the happy meal toy is opened?).  To build both trust and listening skills, use a game format such as Simon Says, with no imposed "punishments" for failures/mistakes.

As for the yelling, I would try very hard to be out of the house when the parent is on the phone.  Maybe the sitter could ask in advance for the conference call schedule and plan on walking to the library or playground or playing in the yard or basement at those times.

Spend as much time outside and doing physical things as possible.

Consider whether or not napping or "quiet time" (not as a punishment) would benefit this child.  I know she's 5yo, but both of my kids napped at that age.  Not worth a battle, of course, but just a thought.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Goodness.  The fact that they thought picking up rice from the floor was a good idea suggests the sitter is either really immature or ... something worse.

If the sitter is really open to suggestions, I suggest a total reboot.  Try really hard for a positive perspective.  Never demand something unnecessary of this child (I mean who cares when the happy meal toy is opened?).  To build both trust and listening skills, use a game format such as Simon Says, with no imposed "punishments" for failures/mistakes.

As for the yelling, I would try very hard to be out of the house when the parent is on the phone.  Maybe the sitter could ask in advance for the conference call schedule and plan on walking to the library or playground or playing in the yard or basement at those times.

Spend as much time outside and doing physical things as possible.

Consider whether or not napping or "quiet time" (not as a punishment) would benefit this child.  I know she's 5yo, but both of my kids napped at that age.  Not worth a battle, of course, but just a thought.

Parent is not in the house. 
 

I agree they need a Reboot. I think I use the word Reset in my Conversation with the sitter.

[SKL]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Parent is not in the house. 
 

I agree they need a Reboot. I think I use the word Reset in my Conversation with the sitter.

Well then who is on a conference call when the child is yelling?

[Scarlett]

Just now, SKL said:

Well then who is on a conference call when the child is yelling?

The sitters spouse . 

[SKL]

Just now, Scarlett said:

The sitters spouse . 

OK.  Then sitter should get the conference call schedule from spouse.

I'm guessing trying to keep young kids quiet while another adult works is adding extra stress, which is probably being channeled to the kids.  Sitter and spouse need to work on a solution that doesn't compromise the kids.

[SKL]

PS I've totally been there with the work-at-home adult / loud kid thing.  But I had the advantage of being a lot older and hopefully more mature.  🙂

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

OK.  Then sitter should get the conference call schedule from spouse.

I'm guessing trying to keep young kids quiet while another adult works is adding extra stress, which is probably being channeled to the kids.  Sitter and spouse need to work on a solution that doesn't compromise the kids.

I don’t think regular kids mouse is a problem. There is a separate office. I think the screaming meltdown is the problem . Which needs to be solved regardless of the noise problem. 

[PeterPan]

26 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

the Ross Green videos.

That's a good direction. 

When I started with ds (who is much harder than dd), I didn't realize that compliance is considered developmental and requires social thinking. So when my ds doesn't comply, it's partly that he has literally not picked up the clue phone on who is in charge, how the world works, etc. Now my assumption is this 5 yo at least partly has. But maybe they haven't totally.

Also consider approaches like: 

-Praise- You're actually teaching them the social thinking of why they would obey. You're reinforcing desired behaviors, even small ones. Praise will go a long, long way, and you don't even have to mention the negative. You just reinforce positive. Oh I like how you... I so appreciate that you...

-Offering acceptable choices--Would you rather play with the toy first or eat first? As long as you're cool with the choices, you're in charge and the dc is complying. 

-Do it or don't do it.--This is the ultimate power tool to get back in control. If you've inadvertently asked the kid to do something and they're not complying, you back out by saying "Do it or don't do it" which means they're back to complying no matter which they do. Totally messes with their mind, lol. 

-Relationship building--Because complying is a social thinking construct (they care about your feelings and they realize who is in charge and why it helps the family go better or the evening go better if they comply), building relationship gives the pieces for all that. Think doting grandma. Take turns, do what they like to do.

-First/Then--First we'll do your choice, then we'll do mine. In this way she can make *small demands* without it being a big production. She earns the street cred to make the demands by doing the previous step (relationship building, rolling with what the kid wants). It sounds like they've been doing a lot of great things for relationship, but maybe she didn't take the time to *weave in* little teeny tiny demands. They can be stupid small, and in fact they can even be something the dc is ALREADY ABOUT TO DO. Like you see them handing you the ketchup and you ask them to hand you the ketchup. It builds a habit of compliance in little things that can resonate over to bigger things.

-Don't ask things you know will lead to a lie.-The adult already knew the answer so asking put the kid on the spot and made the problem. There are other ways that are less confrontational to get the dc to admit what they did. (use humor, provide choices, keep it light, do it while they're doing something else that will make them feel good like swinging or eating an ice cream cone)

-Learn about the Zones of Regulation.--If this dc has significant challenges, it may help the parents to learn to watch for her signals of how regulated she is to make it more likely that their level of demands fits how ready she is to comply. Something to get them started. Red zone is losing control, green zone is good to go, yellow zone is right in the middle (beginning to lose control). Blue zone is too low. Some work on emotional literacy might help the dc talk about their feelings.

 

[Ellie]

1. None of this has anything to do with being 5yo.

2. The sitter is clueless when it comes to taking care of children.

3.  There's much more going on than the child misbehaving at lunch. I'd have to see/know more before giving advice, other than suggesting that the sitter find another vocation.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think the screaming meltdown is the problem .

Until the dc has self control, you're looking at parent control, teacher control. Has this dc been to K5 yet? When I worked in K5 as an aide, that was the mantra every year from the teacher, that they were starting with teacher control so they could learn self control.

So I wouldn't developmentally expect the 5 yo to have complete self control, but I would expect the adult to be watching the dc's level of regulation (the Zones) to provide the support to help them stay more regulated. That means pre-emptive stuff, where you take a break as soon as you see them going yellow. Yellow can be good, yellow can be bad. Yellow Zone and Red Zone are NOT teachable moments. The goal is to prevent yellow zone and back it down to green zone. 

So the dc had a yellow zone before that red zone meltdown, and the adult missed the signals in order to respond and de-escalate. Hunger can push someone into yellow or red. Anxiety, frustration. Good stuff, like being really excited can push kids yellow. When kids are perplexing, it's that the adults are missing the patterns. Has this dc ever been to school to have emotional literacy education? Could they go to the library and get *books* on emotions and read them together? Timberdoodle has great books and some games too. It could increase their shared language to improve the dc's communication about what she's feeling. 

Any time we go *rational* we are busting out of that anxiety, fright flight thing. It's actually another strategy, to ask someone a totally rational thing. Like the sitter could suddenly start a game of "I'm thinking of a fruit, what is it?" and start describing the fruit. I went to a workshop on challenging behaviors with Jessica Minihan and that was one of her tools. 

https://jessicaminahan.com/ 

[PeterPan]

The irony is I know someone (an adult) who is not the sharpest tack in the box but who is AMAZING with my ds. Sometimes people try too hard, take things personally, to control. There's clearly more subtext we're not getting, but you would have wished that the adult would have been flexible enough to adapt to the needs of the dc.

Maybe the adult should say NO and let the Mom find a more appropriate placement. If this dc is challenging, maybe she'd do better in a higher structure environment with people trained to handle behaviors. Sometimes herd effect helps. Sometimes having more eyes on so the dc gets a referral helps.  

[Clarita]

Don't do what sitter is currently doing. I would suggest Amy McCready If I Have to Tell You One More Time...: The Revolutionary Program That Gets Your Kids To Listen Without Nagging, Reminding, or Yelling. (I would also suggest Chris Voss Art of Negotiation not for kids but gave me an incredible perspective on how to handle my children mid-issue.)

Basically, I look at children/people as needing 2 things feeling like they belong and feeling like they are loved. This child sounds like she's is getting neither bucket filled. I would work on giving her actual contributions to the workings of the family/group. I would also work on giving her positive one-on-one time (meaning not only when she is mis-behaving but when she is behaving).

In terms of lying, don't give her a chance to lie. Tell her what you know to have happened and give consequence, only ask for clarification if you didn't witness what happened. If you witnessed it just say I was there saw it happen, this is your consequence.  

Screaming meltdown boils down to set your boundaries in terms of what they are allowed to do and you to tolerate. Then, child is allowed to have feeling of disappointment and anger toward the punishment or thing they are not getting, however they must deal with those emotions in an appropriate way. Example they can pound a pillow but they can not hit another. When you set up a punishment or consequence, it ends based on something the child does. For example you need to stay in your room until you apologize/stop screaming/stop hitting (with appropriate accommodations i.e. going to the bathroom). When child fights consequence remind them their way out then ask them if they need help completing the task (if it's something like cleaning you can help them but they need to be helping the whole time too.)

Bottom line is you want the child to learn to behave appropriately for society not to make her feel like a worthless horrible person for not keeping her hands off the happy meal toy.

[Clarita]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Then asked , ‘ok, but this child does behave terribly a lot of the time.  What would you do if she started that screaming?’

Specifically for the screaming, if at home have a space where you can tolerate the screaming put her there when she does it and tell her she can leave when she stops screaming and is ready to talk in a calm/soft voice - then leave the space, for the first times that you do this check every 5 mins or so (based on age) to remind them when they can speak at a reasonable volume and behavior you will address them. Before you leave for an outing tell her throwing tantrums are not allowed in public, if it happens we will have to go home. If it happens on the outing drop everything put all the kids in the car and go home; this will be difficult but make it happen surfboard carry the kids if you have to. (Make it dramatic. Do it like you mean business apologize on your way out for leaving your cart full of stuff in the middle of the store.)

[Clarita]

Also, during tantrums try to always address the child using "late-night DJ" voice. Low tone, slow, smoothing like you are putting them to sleep. My son is a champion tantrum-er, can you tell? 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Also, during tantrums try to always address the child using "late-night DJ" voice. Low tone, slow, smoothing like you are putting them to sleep. My son is a champion tantrum-er, can you tell? 

I feel like when my kids have tantrums, what I do basically doesn't matter anymore, lol. The best thing is always to try to avoid the tantrum beforehand... during the tantrum, we're sunk already and the kiddo will just need to calm down somehow. 

[Not_a_Number]

54 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t think regular kids mouse is a problem. There is a separate office. I think the screaming meltdown is the problem . Which needs to be solved regardless of the noise problem. 

I've never had any luck "solving" my kids' screaming meltdowns. They grow out of them, that's all. Otherwise, we do our best to not set them off, but it's impossible to make sure their emotions are never so strong that they melt down. 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t think regular kids mouse is a problem. There is a separate office. I think the screaming meltdown is the problem . Which needs to be solved regardless of the noise problem. 

The screaming is a loss of self-regulation. Sitter needs to help the kid co-regulate because clearly kid does not yet have the ability to handle daily life without meltdowns.

Zones of Regulation is a great tool,  but sitter is not willing or able to do the learning to do the program the main thing she needs to do is switch from viewing a meltdown as kid being bad to meltdowns are a kid who is so dysregulated that they need help. 
 

“Hey, can you use your words and tell me what you are thinking?” 

“Let’s take some deep breaths together.”

”Wow! You are really upset. It doesn’t feel good to be so upset. Do you want a hug/snack/quiet space/to look at a book with me?” 

Sitter needs to learn to read the kid and stop things and help kid reset before she melts down. You leave the park when everyone is still happy. You feed the kid a healthy snack if it’s mid morning and you hear the screechy voice kick in. You have lots of exercise to wear them out. You develop a positive relationship. You have a plan for when a meltdown happens because it’s going to.

It’s pro-active care, not reactionary.

[Xahm]

If I were giving that sitter advice, I would summarize it as:

Think of it not as a punishment/reward situation, but a teaching situation. Your job, besides keeping them physically healthy and safe, is to teach them to want to be good and to help them be good. 

For example, as many have mentioned, part of "helping them be good" is to not let that toy be available if it is not allowed to be played with and to not invite lies when the answer is already known. If I saw a kid open a toy they weren't supposed to have, I'd say "oops, that's for after the meal! Sorry about that. How do your fries/apples taste?"

If a child I was babysitting started screaming from being upset, I'd come over, get on their level and say, in a friendly quiet voice, "Wow, something really isn't working, huh? I'd like to help you with it, but I can't when you are screaming. Let's calm down first and then work it out." I'd offer a glass of water and take the kid outside (assuming weather cooperates and there is a safe place.) Most kids calm down outside and it lets them choose how close or distant to be to their caretaker. I might try playing some favorite music inside or a short music video if I needed to stop screaming and couldn't go outside. Only after the kid is completely calm and has done something else pleasant would I circle back around to the initial problem. I'd find something to praise that they'd just been doing, then point out how much nicer it was when she wasn't screaming, and that she seemed to be having more fun, too. I'd see if she could put into words what the problem was earlier and help her to find those words. Kid might say "I said I was done and should have the toy, but you called me a liar and took my toy and put me in time out." Then I'd say, "Oh, you were done?" "Yes" "I'm really sorry I misunderstood you and accused you of lying. I didn't know you were done because there was still lots of hamburger left. It sounds like in the future, we need to work out what "done" means so that we don't have bad misunderstandings like that in the future. When we eat, it's important to eat enough that you don't get hungry again right away, but fun toys are super distracting, I know! What do you think we should do with the toy next time to make it easier for you to eat more?" Then I'd help the kid come up with a decent solution, even if it isn't my first idea. Like, I would say keep the toy out of sight, but the kid might ask to play with it for five minutes before eating, then set it aside until after food is done.

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

“Hey, can you use your words and tell me what you are thinking?” 

“Let’s take some deep breaths together.”

”Wow! You are really upset. It doesn’t feel good to be so upset. Do you want a hug/snack/quiet space/to look at a book with me?” 

While I agree with you about treating it as the inability to self-regulate, I'll say that my kids don't react well to attempts to calm down together. They really need to spend some time by themselves, especially if the meltdown is about something I control (like, say, I refused to give them ice cream that moment.) However, they will not generally be able to tell me they need time for themselves. 

Not that there's anything wrong to trying it! Just a note that some kids will not react well to this and that this isn't a failure. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

While I agree with you about treating it as the inability to self-regulate, I'll say that my kids don't react well to attempts to calm down together. They really need to spend some time by themselves, especially if the meltdown is about something I control (like, say, I refused to give them ice cream that moment.) However, they will not generally be able to tell me they need time for themselves. 

Not that there's anything wrong to trying it! Just a note that some kids will not react well to this and that this isn't a failure. 

Right, this is the, “Wow! You are really upset you can’t have icecream right now (acknowledge their feelings and wishes); why don’t you head up to your room to calm down for a bit?” (If you want them to do something, or you just ignore the meltdown)

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Right, this is the, “Wow! You are really upset you can’t have icecream right now (acknowledge their feelings and wishes); why don’t you head up to your room to calm down for a bit?” (If you want them to do something, or you just ignore the meltdown)

Yep, that's what we wind up doing, although usually with some resistance to calming down along the way and more pleading for ice cream 😉 . 

DD5 will probably eventually want a hug, although DD8 usually did not when she was of tantrum age. 

Ignoring the meltdown tends not to work around here, because everything will become a meltdown unless they have the chance to become regulated again. DH tends to be impatient about DD5 taking breaks, so I get to watch this in action fairly often 😉. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[LucyStoner]

I am going to take you at your word that the sitter is young and inexperienced and not disturbed.  It says something that the parents want the sitter to spank...to a young person, the arm thing and the rice thing (which sound deranged to savvy, experienced mamas like we have here on WTM!) might be seen as "better than spanking".  I commend the sitter for not spanking and assume that the child is being spanked by their parents when the sitter is not there (who tells their sitter to spank if they don't spank themselves?  No one I can think of).   I remember being very young, working in a daycare and as a sitter (I actually started working in a daycare at age 12!) and I would have ideas about consequences that were developmentally inappropriate because I just didn't know any better. Nothing physical but just dumb ideas that would never work, like getting a kid to write an apology note.  Pretty stupid, but I was basically just a kid myself.    

If the child is intense and being spanked, that's a recipe for the child to learn to lie as much as possible to avoid the spanking.  While it's not the sitter's job to rehab how these people are parenting, it is possible that if the parents see the sitter using more effective approaches with a child who is intense and overwhelming, they will be inspired to do the same.  At the very least, the child will have time with the sitter where she is safe and not being spanked.  

I would recommend that the sitter stop doing *any* punishments that are physical and start trying to think in terms of natural consequences and teaching the child correct behavior.  

I like to catch children when they are doing good things and positively reinforce that.  

I would recommend rules be kept to a minimum so that the ones that are enforced matter.  

Setting up consistent, loving routines.  

If the child is expected to not open the toy before they finish (weird to me but whatever), then the child can be given the toy at the end of the meal.  If I don't want a small child to have something, they just didn't have something.  The toy is about 90% of the fun of a fast food meal for a kid so asking them to focus on the food while the toy is sitting there in reach might just be unrealistic/setting the kid up to fail.  

There are also classes on child development and positive discipline online that are free and low cost.  In my area, there are professional development seminars for childcare workers that she might learn a lot from.  

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by LucyStoner

[HeartString]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I just watched one of the Ross Green videos. That was excellent.  I sent it to sitter. 

I wish I had found them sooner.   It would have saved me so much.  I *was* that young mom with only poor modeling and no skills.  Working and being away from the kids let me outsource it and not deal with it.  Becoming a stay at home mom, these boards and some other blogs really helped.  

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I feel like when my kids have tantrums, what I do basically doesn't matter anymore, lol. The best thing is always to try to avoid the tantrum beforehand... during the tantrum, we're sunk already and the kiddo will just need to calm down somehow. 

Yes, avoiding beforehand is the best solution. I find the late-night DJ voice really helpful though because it can calm my kid and if not at least it calms me to disengage in the power struggle.  It's actually a grown-up technique from Chris Voss during tense negotiations. Because that voice disengages both party from the fight against each other vs. authoritative voice (looking for a fight) or playful voice (dismissive).

[historically accurate]

Would a sensory box work for child? A glitter jar to shake and watch settle, soft stuffed animal to stroke, cotton ball dipped in lavender, a coloring page and an 8 crayon box, rubiks cube, and a balloon partially filled with flour are the cheap things in our "Calm Down Kit". We also have a weighted blanket, thinking putty, and noise cancelling headphones, but those cost a pretty penny. They don't work while in the throes of a tantrum or meltdown, but they can be very helpful to get child back to the baseline to have a short discussion on what went wrong. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by historically accurate

[HeartString]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t think regular kids mouse is a problem. There is a separate office. I think the screaming meltdown is the problem . Which needs to be solved regardless of the noise problem. 

From your description the screaming didn’t start until the babysitter tried to get the child to stand with her arms up like she was in a POW camp. The sitter caused the screaming . Full stop.   The sitter escalated the child into a tantrum.   Learning how not to do that would solve most of the screaming issues.  

[Not_a_Number]

39 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Yes, avoiding beforehand is the best solution. I find the late-night DJ voice really helpful though because it can calm my kid and if not at least it calms me to disengage in the power struggle.  It's actually a grown-up technique from Chris Voss during tense negotiations. Because that voice disengages both party from the fight against each other vs. authoritative voice (looking for a fight) or playful voice (dismissive).

OK, now I'm intrigued... how exactly does it sound? 😄 Video? 😄 

I tend to become bland, soothing, and rational -- unless I'm overwhelmed, in which case I sound frustrated 😛 . Thankfully, tantrums aren't a trigger to me, so I'm mostly not overwhelmed and can manage the super bland approach. (DH, who is actually a calmer person than I am, has more trouble with that.) I've noticed that any emotion in the voice will rile DD5 up, whereas staying super bland at least doesn't escalate. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, historically accurate said:

Would a sensory box work for child? A glitter jar to shake and watch settle, soft stuffed animal to stroke, cotton ball dipped in lavender, a coloring page and an 8 crayon box, rubiks cube, and a balloon partially filled with flour are the cheap things in our "Calm Down Kit". We also have a weighted blanket, thinking putty, and noise cancelling headphones, but those cost a pretty penny. They don't work while in the throes of a tantrum or meltdown, but they can be very helpful to get child back to the baseline to have a short discussion on what went wrong. 

We went through that distinction with my ds of green zone tools (things that can help you wait, things you use when you're pretty regulated to STAY regulated) and then developing yellow zone tools. Yellow zone are a lot harder! Well that and I had this extra parameter that I wanted them small enough to fit in a zipper pouch. I had green and yellow zipper pouches that would fit in a large purse so I could whip them both out and let him identify where he was at and which bag he needed. 

Fwiw, balloons were our top thing for a yellow zone bag. They're small, cheap to replace, come with color therapy and surprise (blow up first, draw a smiley, then deflate), and most importantly they help the dc *regulate their breath*.

But odds are, this sitter is not exactly green zone either, sorry. I know op keeps saying she's an adult and competent, but in this moment she is not demonstrating it. So she's gonna have to use the yellow zone tools HERSELF and keep herself under control.

So there you go, a $1 solution, balloons from Dollar Tree. Then when they've blown them up and are feeling calmer (it may take a young kid several tries or they can blow up a bunch of them), then volley back and forth for a green zone, pairing activity. 

 

[Clarita]

The 2 minute mark. I think this is useful because it's a woman doing it. 

Then just listen to this guy. And listen to the label and mirroring also works wonders.

I think it's more just soothing and sloow. I think rational sometimes sets my son off because that gets him in the "lawyer" mode where he is trying to win the argument and gets frustrated because he isn't winning. 

[SKL]

I will differ from many in that I don't try to revisit the negative situation with the child (after she calms down from a tantrum).  Instead, I try to plan ahead and be more proactive next time a similar situation arises.  This means not just trying, as the adult, to head things off; but reminding the child what the expectations are, before things have a chance to get heated.  If I think back to my own childhood, a lot of my missteps were due to simply forgetting or failing to pay attention.  With that in mind, guiding the child right before X activity is going to be more helpful than expecting her to recall how she got scolded for her mistake on a previous day.

[SKL]

And I do use a low, possibly scary voice when the kids aren't listening well.  It really gets most kids' attention.  I learned this trick in a public speaking course for women - lower voices are taken more seriously.  (Many women just get louder and somewhat shriller when they struggle to get attention, but that has the opposite effect.)

[HeartString]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

And I do use a low, possibly scary voice when the kids aren't listening well.  It really gets most kids' attention.  I learned this trick in a public speaking course for women - lower voices are taken more seriously.  (Many women just get louder and somewhat shriller when they struggle to get attention, but that has the opposite effect.)

I got that idea from  watching Super Nanny. She always recommended getting on the child's level and speaking in a lower voice. I know her methods are not in vogue right now, but that one bit was useful.

[Melissa in Australia]

15 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Ha, I said so much of this yesterday.  This sitter is related to this child and I think a lot of the relatives dislike this child.  So I did focus on the adults changing their mind set.  This child is a baby in my mind!  She is probably lacking in attention and Structure.  

Oh no. That is terrible. A child that relatives hate will end up  a teenager with self worth problems and an adult with bad mental health issues. 

The poor poor child

Edited July 18, 2021 by Melissa in Australia

[Scarlett]

49 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I got that idea from  watching Super Nanny. She always recommended getting on the child's level and speaking in a lower voice. I know her methods are not in vogue right now, but that one bit was useful.

This part kind of bugs me….how the pendulum swings far and wide with regard to child rearing.,,..

[HeartString]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

This part kind of bugs me….how the pendulum swings far and wide with regard to child rearing.,,..

I get that.  I loved Super Nanny when my oldest was little.  I learned a lot.  Her time out method worked perfectly for my younger son.  Now apparently her time out method is seen as separating the child from the parent too much? Or something? Which, I can kind of see, a little bit, because her time out method was a quick failure with my youngest who is anxious and has separation issues despite being a perfect fit for her brother.  But I hate throwing the baby out with the bath water.   Super Nanny style timeouts, along with her emphasis on connection and fun outside of those times are soo much better than spanking or yelling or holding arms up. It probably doesn’t work for all kids, but ugh, I don’t see that as a reason to throw the whole thing out.  

[TravelingChris]

14 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Not all people are against spanking. I realize you are but my point is the parents spank their children they don’t beat them.  I know many see no difference, but I would like to prevent this from being an anti spanking thread, especially since the sitter does not spank.

There is a giant difference from parent doing a spanking and telling a babysitter to do it.  Also, I think it implies that the parent is spanking a lot.  I mean a slap on the hand of a small child trying to reach the stove so they remember that stoves equal hurt is sure different than having spanking be your #1 way of discipline.  And yes, I do know there is a big difference between a spank and a beating.  But spanking as the primary way of discipline is not a good thing, IMO.

[LucyStoner]

My husband has that radio voice.  It *is* remarkably soothing and he is excellent at negotiating/mediating, which now that I think about is likely partly due to his voice. 

He can also make himself sound like the guy in the movie previews.  “In a world…”

 

[Ausmumof3]

I wonder if they would benefit from a book like “Your baby and child” or similar that just covers some basic child development stage stuff.  Or I think there’s an Aussie site called raising kids https://raisingchildren.net.au here which has some helpful information on what behaviour is normal for each age and stage and tools for handling it.  Maybe there’s something similar that’s more US based but otherwise both mum and sitter might benefit from reading something along those lines.

[Scarlett]

7 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

There is a giant difference from parent doing a spanking and telling a babysitter to do it.  Also, I think it implies that the parent is spanking a lot.  I mean a slap on the hand of a small child trying to reach the stove so they remember that stoves equal hurt is sure different than having spanking be your #1 way of discipline.  And yes, I do know there is a big difference between a spank and a beating.  But spanking as the primary way of discipline is not a good thing, IMO.

I completely agree. As does the sitter.  Knowing the situation as I do I don’t think it is a red flag that the mom prefers spanking over the other bizarre punishments. I am using the word sitter but they are family and quite close.  Sitter is against spanking though.

[Halftime Hope]

On 7/17/2021 at 10:27 AM, Scarlett said:

That is not likely to happen. So so much chaos in this family.  

It seems to me like this would be a small and easy thing to try to set in motion. If the sitter asks the grand parents what their routine is, that would be the easiest way to approach it, methinks.  If the grands have no routine, it might be more difficult, but it could highlight the need for one, and the parents could request movement in that direction.  We're not talking about schedule here, just routine. 

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

It seems to me like this would be a small and easy thing to try to set in motion. If the sitter asks the grand parents what their routine is, that would be the easiest way to approach it, methinks.  If the grands have no routine, it might be more difficult, but it could highlight the need for one, and the parents could request movement in that direction.  We're not talking about schedule here, just routine. 

And we are not talking about just 2 sitters.  Changes constantly, people cancel, etc. 

[Not_a_Number]

22 hours ago, Clarita said:

The 2 minute mark. I think this is useful because it's a woman doing it. 

Then just listen to this guy. And listen to the label and mirroring also works wonders.

Ah, OK. I think when I'm not overwhelmed, I definitely do that. When I'm frustrated and feeling overloaded, it's a different story. 

[DawnM]

On 7/17/2021 at 10:58 AM, Scarlett said:

To be fair, I don’t really think the kid is being beaten by her parents.  The mother is not a terrible person, she is just young and ill equipped to handle her life.  Some of the things the mom has been telling sitter leads me to believe she HAS been reading and trying to deal more effectively with the lying.  She told sitter to stop making such a big deal out of lies and to just move on.   

Except that a sitter who isn't getting paid can make a big deal out of whatever she wants.

Yikes.

Do you think any of their parenting warrants a DSS call?

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, DawnM said:

Except that a sitter who isn't getting paid can make a big deal out of whatever she wants.

Yikes.

Do you think any of their parenting warrants a DSS call?

I think my post about that was not very clear.  The mom is trying a different approach about the lying.  She is trying to not make a federal case out of a 5 year old lying....

And no I don't think any of this is DSS worthy.   

[OH_Homeschooler]

On 7/17/2021 at 9:23 AM, Scarlett said:

Right.  I have all kinds of suggestions……don’t watch these kids, tell the mom to quit her job and stay home and take care of her own babies, etc.  but the advise being asked of me is how would you handle this child.?    

Ouch

[Tanaqui]

Given the haphazard childcare situation, Scarlett, I wonder how you expect mom and dad to *feed* those kids if either one of them quits their job to take care of them at home.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

Given the haphazard childcare situation, Scarlett, I wonder how you expect mom and dad to *feed* those kids if either one of them quits their job to take care of them at home.

Her husband makes plenty to feed the kids.  He works for UPS and works 60 hours a week.  I think they have created a mess of a life for  themselves, but IMO it is not being solved by farming out 3 little girls to various friends and relatives while she goes to work full time.