Can we talk about 5 year olds?

[Scarlett]

Edit to say Sitter is the one asking for advice. 
 

I have a friend who has been watching their friends 3 young daughters.  2, 5 and 6.  The 5 year old gives the sitter a lot of problems.  I was asked for my advise yesterday and while I said no I wouldn’t do that to a lot of the ways they have tried to handle her I also had no real solution.  

It has been a long time since I had a 5 year old.  

The sitter says the child lies constantly.  The example I was given yesterday was  this:  they had happy meals. They  aren’t allowed to open the happy meals toy until they have eaten ( at the table) and washed their hands.  5 year old disobeyed this rule and then lied repeatedly about it.  Punishment was time out in a corner for 5 minutes. She left the corner so then she was made to hold her arm up.  .????  Never heard of this.  Anyway, she then started to scream and wail which can’t happen since there is someone else in the house on the phone working.  
 

Sitter also has used the punishment of putting rice on the floor and having child pick it up and put in a bowl.  ??…  Also never heard of that.  
 

I told the sitter I would not do the arm up and rice thing.  I was asked why? I said because it seems dehumanizing.  I suggested similar tasks that had purpose….keeping her busy and feeling productive but not in the context of punishment.  
 

As for the happy meal incident….I said back up, and rethink how you are thinking of this child.  She is a baby.  Your rule about eating first is great.  But don’t set the toy next to her plate and expect her to resist that.  Remove such obstacles from her.  Don’t think of her as a liar.  Don’t put her in positions where she feels has to lie.  
 

Sitter accepted my thought and advise.  Then asked , ‘ok, but this child does behave terribly a lot of the time.  What would you do if she started that screaming?’   I did not have much to offer except remove her from the situation…..take her for a walk or something.  Sitter felt that was rewarding bad behavior.  

Any ideas?

Edited July 17, 2021 by Scarlett

[Lecka]

Get a new sitter. 
 

Edit:  or for the sitter — maybe she can get a different job or even just work for a different family.  It sounds like a poor set-up if the babysitter has to keep a child from making noise.  
 

Sometimes there is just not a good fit and it’s a reason to make a change.  

Edited July 17, 2021 by Lecka

[regentrude]

Holding up the arm for an extended time is physically abusive. Picking up the rice is a punishment that has absolutely no relation to the behavior it is supposed to correct. It is punitive without teaching the kid anything. I would not let a babysitter discipline my kids in that way.

5 year olds are still little kids. I completely agree that the sitter is setting the kid up for failure. Don't put the toy right there, just keep it out of sight. Don't set the kid up for lying (sitter KNOWS they opened it, so don't create a scenario where kid is tempted to lie.)

If kid were upset and getting loud and that would disturb the person working, I would redirect and take child outside. 

ETA: Either the sitter needs better instructions, or needs to be replaced. I hope these ideas don't come from the parents.

2nd ETA: It is not realistic to expect a sitter to take care of little children inside the house and keep them quiet all day during working time. If noise is an issue, the kids need to spend the majority of time outside.

Edited July 17, 2021 by regentrude

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Lecka said:

Get a new sitter. 
 

Edit:  or for the sitter — maybe she can get a different job or even just work for a different family.  It sounds like a poor set-up if the babysitter has to keep a child from making noise.  

Right.  I have all kinds of suggestions……don’t watch these kids, tell the mom to quit her job and stay home and take care of her own babies, etc.  but the advise being asked of me is how would you handle this child.?    

[HeartString]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I have a friend who has been watching their friends 3 young daughters.  2, 5 and 6.  The 5 year old gives the sitter a lot of problems.  I was asked for my advise yesterday and while I said no I wouldn’t do that to a lot of the ways they have tried to handle her I also had no real solution.  

It has been a long time since I had a 5 year old.  

The sitter says the child lies constantly.  The example I was given yesterday was  this:  they had happy meals. They  aren’t allowed to open the happy meals toy until they have eaten ( at the table) and washed their hands.  5 year old disobeyed this rule and then lied repeatedly about it.  Punishment was time out in a corner for 5 minutes. She left the corner so then she was made to hold her arm up.  .????  Never heard of this.  Anyway, she then started to scream and wail which can’t happen since there is someone else in the house on the phone working.  
 

Sitter also has used the punishment of putting rice on the floor and having child pick it up and put in a bowl.  ??…  Also never heard of that.  
 

I told the sitter I would not do the arm up and rice thing.  I was asked why? I said because it seems dehumanizing.  I suggested similar tasks that had purpose….keeping her busy and feeling productive but not in the context of punishment.  
 

As for the happy meal incident….I said back up, and rethink how you are thinking of this child.  She is a baby.  Your rule about eating first is great.  But don’t set the toy next to her plate and expect her to resist that.  Remove such obstacles from her.  Don’t think of her as a liar.  Don’t put her in positions where she feels has to lie.  
 

Sitter accepted my thought and advise.  Then asked , ‘ok, but this child does behave terribly a lot of the time.  What would you do if she started that screaming?’   I did not have much to offer except remove her from the situation…..take her for a walk or something.  Sitter felt that was rewarding bad behavior.  

Any ideas?

My advice is your friend needs to quit babysitting.  She isn’t good with children and she’s causing damage.  I would 💯 fire a babysitter for that behavior.  Subway is probably hiring and would be a better fit.  
 

The lying about a happy meal toy shows that the sitter has no clue about young children. You don’t ask questions about things you already know the answer to, and you don’t escalate the child.  Of course the child lied, look at the punishment they got!  “Susan, I told you not to open your toy, give it here.  You can have it back once your done eating” would have been fine.  
 

You mention the sitters rules several times, what are the parents rules? Because I always give my child her happy meal toy while she eats.  She gets confused when I change that when we are with other people who do it differently.  Because at 5 the way I do things is her normal.   I’m not hearing anything on your description about the parents rules, or parents thoughts on consequences from a non-family member.  

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Holding up the arm for an extended time is physically abusive. Picking up the rice is a punishment that has absolutely no relation to the behavior it is supposed to correct. It is punitive without teaching the kid anything. I would not let a babysitter discipline my kids in that way.

5 year olds are still little kids. I completely agree that the sitter is setting the kid up for failure. Don't put the toy right there, just keep it out of sight. Don't set the kid up for lying (sitter KNOWS they opened it, so don't create a scenario where kid is tempted to lie.)

If kid were upset and getting loud and that would disturb the person working, I would redirect and take child outside. 

ETA: Either the sitter needs better instructions, or needs to be replaced. I hope these ideas don't come from the parents.

2nd ETA: It is not realistic to expect a sitter to take care of little children inside the house and keep them quiet all day during working time. If noise is an issue, the kids need to spend the majority of time outside.

I don’t think they are suppose to be silent.  But she was SCREAMING. It is an apartment but a large one with an office.  
 

The mom wants the sitter to spank the child.  Sitter won’t do that and I agree with that.  
 

My advise was to redirect, redirect redirect.  

[HeartString]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Right.  I have all kinds of suggestions……don’t watch these kids, tell the mom to quit her job and stay home and take care of her own babies, etc.  but the advise being asked of me is how would you handle this child.?    

Has she ever read a book about child development?  You might recommend some to her, or Ross Greene’s you tube videos on kids doing well if they can.  

[Tanaqui]

I would advise the sitter to stop watching this child and get some lessons, because her methods are inappropriate. And Mom could benefit from them too.

That poor kid.

[fairfarmhand]

Sitter sounds either like a terrible person or someone who has never had good parenting modeled. You were right on in advising her.

The thing is that handling other situations appropriately will head off the melt down/screaming fits. Sitter needs to realize that often meltdowns happen because a child has reached the end of their coping abilities.  

Sitter needs to ask the parent how parent handles the meltdowns. Your suggestion to take the kid for a walk was a good one. 

Also, sitter needs to realize that children lie. And adults don't need to set up the kid for lying. "Did you do bad thing?" is setting them up for lying if you already know they did it. 

And this sounds like a situation that is unfair for everyone. A sitter can't be expected to keep three children quiet enough to allow someone to work from home 100% of the time.

Also...I babysat  other kids a LOT for pay when my kids were little. I had to realize that while I was partnering with the parent, most of the "parenting stuff" was not my thing to handle. So like one of the kids I sat for only drank juice. No milk, no water. And that was a parenting decision. It wasn't my job to assign for him what he should drink. So while I fixed my children milk and water, he got what his parents brought him. It is a mindset shift. Sitter needs to get out of her head that she's "rewarding bad behavior" if she is to distract a child from a potential meltdown. Her job is to care for the kids and keep them safe and engaged. Even if in her mind the kids "get away" with bad behavior. Some of the kids I sat for did have bad manners (I ignored some of that, since it wasn't my job to fix it) Other kids were ready to be potty trained but parents didn't want to mess with it, so I just changed diapers. Some kids were old enough to not need a bottle, but parents kept giving it to them. Not my thing to correct. 

A sitter isn't a parent. 

This sitter doesn't sound like she even likes the 5 year old and that is a terrible situation to be in. Sitter needs to act like an adult and get over herself and start trying to enjoy this kid.

Or quit.  

But with kids this small, redirecting and heading off meltdowns is good babysitting and good parenting. 

 

ETA: Read that parent advised sitter to spank. No way ever am I going to touch someone else's kid like that. No way. That's a terrible idea all around.

Edited July 17, 2021 by fairfarmhand

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, HeartString said:

My advice is your friend needs to quit babysitting.  She isn’t good with children and she’s causing damage.  I would 💯 fire a babysitter for that behavior.  Subway is probably hiring and would be a better fit.  
 

The lying about a happy meal toy shows that the sitter has no clue about young children. You don’t ask questions about things you already know the answer to, and you don’t escalate the child.  Of course the child lied, look at the punishment they got!  “Susan, I told you not to open your toy, give it here.  You can have it back once your done eating” would have been fine.  
 

You mention the sitters rules several times, what are the parents rules? Because I always give my child her happy meal toy while she eats.  She gets confused when I change that when we are with other people who do it differently.  Because at 5 the way I do things is her normal.   I’m not hearing anything on your description about the parents rules, or parents thoughts on consequences from a non-family member.  

It is so hard to explain all of this.  Sitter is doing friend a favor.  Sitter  is not getting paid.  Sitter watches them 2 days a week, grandparents another few days.  Parents are completely chaotic and these kids have no consistency at all.  
 

And you ar correct sitter is young with little experience being in charge of young children.  Thus why I am being asked for advise.  

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Sitter sounds either like a terrible person or someone who has never had good parenting modeled. You were right on in advising her.

The thing is that handling other situations appropriately will head off the melt down/screaming fits. Sitter needs to realize that often meltdowns happen because a child has reached the end of their coping abilities.  

Sitter needs to ask the parent how parent handles the meltdowns. Your suggestion to take the kid for a walk was a good one. 

Also, sitter needs to realize that children lie. And adults don't need to set up the kid for lying. "Did you do bad thing?" is setting them up for lying if you already know they did it. 

And this sounds like a situation that is unfair for everyone. A sitter can't be expected to keep three children quiet enough to allow someone to work from home 100% of the time.

Also...I babysat  other kids a LOT for pay when my kids were little. I had to realize that while I was partnering with the parent, most of the "parenting stuff" was not my thing to handle. So like one of the kids I sat for only drank juice. No milk, no water. And that was a parenting decision. It wasn't my job to assign for him what he should drink. So while I fixed my children milk and water, he got what his parents brought him. It is a mindset shift. Sitter needs to get out of her head that she's "rewarding bad behavior" if she is to distract a child from a potential meltdown. Her job is to care for the kids and keep them safe and engaged. Even if in her mind the kids "get away" with bad behavior. Some of the kids I sat for did have bad manners (I ignored some of that, since it wasn't my job to fix it) Other kids were ready to be potty trained but parents didn't want to mess with it, so I just changed diapers. Some kids were old enough to not need a bottle, but parents kept giving it to them. Not my thing to correct. 

A sitter isn't a parent. 

This sitter doesn't sound like she even likes the 5 year old and that is a terrible situation to be in. Sitter needs to act like an adult and get over herself and start trying to enjoy this kid.

Or quit.  

But with kids this small, redirecting and heading off meltdowns is good babysitting and good parenting. 

 

 

Ha, I said so much of this yesterday.  This sitter is related to this child and I think a lot of the relatives dislike this child.  So I did focus on the adults changing their mind set.  This child is a baby in my mind!  She is probably lacking in attention and Structure.  

[fairfarmhand]

BTW, I had a 5 yo that still threw screaming fits. I SO wish that I had learned about de-escalation and better techniques for managing the situations that led up to the meltdowns. I didn't handle them well most of the time when that child was small and it's one of my big life regrets. To be fair, I had nobody to mentor me on this. I knew no one with a child like mine, and typical parenting advice did not help one bit. But I still regret that I couldn't figure out better ways of handling the big emotions in my kid.

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

The mom wants the sitter to spank the child.  Sitter won’t do that and I agree with that.  
My advise was to redirect, redirect redirect.  

Oh my goodness. I feel for the sitter.

In this situation, I would advise to redirect, take outside, and don't worry about whether you feel this is "rewarding" bad behavior. Sounds like sitter's main job here is to prevent parent from snapping and beating the kid. Sitter should do whatever it takes. It's not sitter's task to parent - they're job is just to make sure kid is safe, fed, and entertained.

Edited July 17, 2021 by regentrude

[Innisfree]

I would give both sitter and parent copies of Ross Greene's The Explosive Child. I might even go through and highlight relevant sections first, because I'm getting the feeling that no one in this scenario has done much reading about child development, and maybe they don't read naturally to analyze and solve problems. Make it easy for them.

Scarlett, I feel for you. This has to be a hard situation to navigate. Thank goodness the babysitter is willing to take advice from you, though.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Innisfree

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Ha, I said so much of this yesterday.  This sitter is related to this child and I think a lot of the relatives dislike this child.  So I did focus on the adults changing their mind set.  This child is a baby in my mind!  She is probably lacking in attention and Structure.  

BINGO! 

My kid needed structure and consistency or we had meltdowns all day long. She really needed to know what to expect. To help this kid, it would be good if all the adults could get on the same page about a general daily routine. 

Also, if sitter can start looking at meltdowns as less a matter of poor character and more of a matter of "a tiny kid being overwhelmed with frustration and emotion and feeling alone and misunderstood" it will help. When a kid gets to that point, they need gentle and attentive adults. This will make the meltdowns end quicker. But the main thing is being fair to the kid by not expecting too much and heading off the meltdowns.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

BTW, I had a 5 yo that still threw screaming fits. I SO wish that I had learned about de-escalation and better techniques for managing the situations that led up to the meltdowns. I didn't handle them well most of the time when that child was small and it's one of my big life regrets. To be fair, I had nobody to mentor me on this. I knew no one with a child like mine, and typical parenting advice did not help one bit. But I still regret that I couldn't figure out better ways of handling the big emotions in my kid.

Thank you!   This has affected me so much I want to go get this child for the weekend!  And I want to go tell the mom and dad to step up and be better parents.  

[prairiewindmomma]

The correct response would have been to, on the drive home, set the expectation. “When we get home, we are going to wash our hands before we eat.” They would have then come home, put the meals on the table and said, “Hey, guys, let’s go wash our hands together so we can eat!!” She would have guided them through the entire experience. 

[Katy]

Everyone else has given excellent advice but I thought I’d add that when we get fast food for our kids we open the boxes to “check” them and I take out the toys & slide them in my purse at the same time. Toys are distributed after eating if I want them to have them. 

[Carrie12345]

I’d scream, too. 

[HeartString]

4 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’d scream, too. 

Seriously!  It’s not realistic to essentially torture this poor child as a punishment and expect them to be quiet during it.  

[HeartString]

24 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It is so hard to explain all of this.  Sitter is doing friend a favor.  Sitter  is not getting paid.  Sitter watches them 2 days a week, grandparents another few days.  Parents are completely chaotic and these kids have no consistency at all.  
 

And you ar correct sitter is young with little experience being in charge of young children.  Thus why I am being asked for advise.  

Such a hard situation.   I hope she’ll take your mentoring and put in some effort to read some books and learn about children.  

[catz]

I haven't read all the responses, but that sitter sounds awful.  If you want a young child to wash their hands and not play, walk them into the bathroom and remove toys.  Preferably with a sing song voice "let's go wash our hands, scrub scrub scrub.  Time to eat, I will hold your toy.  What do you want to do after lunch?".  Her methods are boarderline abusive.  And mom sounds awful too if she thinks regularly hitting a 5 year old is a solution.  

[Scarlett]

18 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Oh my goodness. I feel for the sitter.

In this situation, I would advise to redirect, take outside, and don't worry about whether you feel this is "rewarding" bad behavior. Sounds like sitter's main job here is to prevent parent from snapping and beating the kid. Sitter should do whatever it takes. It's not sitter's task to parent - they're job is just to make sure kid is safe, fed, and entertained.

To be fair, I don’t really think the kid is being beaten by her parents.  The mother is not a terrible person, she is just young and ill equipped to handle her life.  Some of the things the mom has been telling sitter leads me to believe she HAS been reading and trying to deal more effectively with the lying.  She told sitter to stop making such a big deal out of lies and to just move on.   

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I haven't read all the responses, but that sitter sounds awful.  If you want a young child to wash their hands and not play, walk them into the bathroom and remove toys.  Preferably with a sing song voice "let's go wash our hands, scrub scrub scrub.  Time to eat, I will hold your toy.  What do you want to do after lunch?".  Her methods are boarderline abusive.  And mom sounds awful too if she thinks regularly hitting a 5 year old is a solution.  

Sitter isn’t awful.  Sitter is young and overwhelmed.  The kids get a lot of good attention from this sitter….they swim at the pool, they go to the park, they do coloring and crafts, play with the dogs.  They  love these kids…they are family…but they do not know how to handle meltdowns or prevent them.  Which is why they asked for advice.  

[Scarlett]

And I give the sitter points for working to figure out coping mechanisms that do not involve spanking.  

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

To be fair, I don’t really think the kid is being beaten by her parents.  

but the sitter is instructed to hit the kid?

[Scarlett]

So I think what I am getting from y’all is pretty much what I told sitter.  Prevent what you can, redirect meltdowns (I like the comment about being gentle during a meltdown), rethink how they view this child….

[prairiewindmomma]

If I was sitter, I would create a schedule (with drawings also since likely none of them read well) of what the day looks like. I would have a morning walk and an afternoon park time or other field trip (library story time) built in. I would stick to the schedule and work on helping the kids through transitions. I would also pile on the love and praise for good choices.

 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

but the sitter is instructed to hit the kid?

Not all people are against spanking. I realize you are but my point is the parents spank their children they don’t beat them.  I know many see no difference, but I would like to prevent this from being an anti spanking thread, especially since the sitter does not spank.

[historically accurate]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If I was sitter, I would create a schedule (with drawings also since likely none of them read well) of what the day looks like. I would have a morning walk and an afternoon park time or other field trip (library story time) built in. I would stick to the schedule and work on helping the kids through transitions. I would also pile on the love and praise for good choices.

 

Another idea: sitter & grandparents get together and come up with a somewhat consistent schedule for the children. Like, lunch is 11:30 whichever house they're at, naptime 1-2, etc. They don't have to have the same activities (like swimming at sitters' vs movie day at grandmas), but it might help to have consistency on the basics. 

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Not all people are against spanking. I realize you are but my point is the parents spank their children they don’t beat them.  I know many see no difference, but I would like to prevent this from being an anti spanking thread, especially since the sitter does not spank.

My closest friends and I JOKE that we’re allowed to beat each other’s children (all non-spankers ), but actually, genuinely giving permission to spank a child that doesn’t belong to them is a legitimate red flag, IMO. That’s without making a statement on whether parents should be allowed to spank and including that the sitter doesn’t use that permission. 

[Katy]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Not all people are against spanking. I realize you are but my point is the parents spank their children they don’t beat them.  I know many see no difference, but I would like to prevent this from being an anti spanking thread, especially since the sitter does not spank.

To be clear, spanking isn’t considered abuse legally.  Forcing her to hold an arm in the air (which can cause pain for much longer than a swat on the butt) IS abuse, legally speaking.  It’s not going to get kids yanked, but it’s considered abuse.  Whereas spanking isn’t optimal, it is legal. 

[Carrie12345]

Expectations need to change. My kids are much older, and keeping a house quiet during the thick of COVID so dh could work was impossible. Those attempts most definitely CAUSE the bigger distracting behaviors. Kids have a right to be kids in their home. Or take them somewhere else to be kids. 

[fairfarmhand]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

To be fair, I don’t really think the kid is being beaten by her parents.  The mother is not a terrible person, she is just young and ill equipped to handle her life.  Some of the things the mom has been telling sitter leads me to believe she HAS been reading and trying to deal more effectively with the lying.  She told sitter to stop making such a big deal out of lies and to just move on.   

Yes, when all you have ever experienced or been around is not great parenting, you really have no tools to handle the challenges that come up. We can't forget that there are giant pockets of people who have only been around and experienced poor parenting. They know no better. So when a kid throws a fit and all the parent has ever heard or known is to swat them, that's what the parent does. And in some places the idea of using other parenting techniques is looked down upon as "spoiling a child." When all you've heard is that "the other parenting styles" is going to ruin a child, you go with what you know.

How do I know this? Because I was that person.

It took me years to learn other skills and if I hadn't moved from where family was, I probably never would have sought out help. When we ended up in a church that was much more gracious, loving, and understanding of children, I figured out that there was more than one way to do this parenting thing and got the courage to try more effective techniques. 

Also, finding this board gave me tools I needed, resources to try...because what I was doing was not working, I figured I had nothing to lose.

[Not_a_Number]

I have a 5-year-old and I really can't imagine treating her in this way. For one thing, a 5-year-old doesn't have a great understanding of consequences, so unless you manage to thoroughly frighten them (which would be abusive!), a punishment won't change how they behave next time. 

5-year-olds also don't have great control of their emotions. DD5 still throws tantrums a few times a day. We do ask her to calm down on her own in a different room when that happens, which is like a timeout, but it's not a punishment -- it's a chance for her to regulate her brain and body so she can function again. (Neither of my kids are capable to calm down via hugging or other techniques involving other people. They need to be on their own.) 

When DH had to be on the phone, he'd always be in the quietest, most sound-proofed room. Sometimes, that was by necessity a bathroom, since that allowed double doors to be closed. But we absolutely knew that we couldn't count on DD5 being totally quiet. 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Lecka]

Well, she is set up for failure. 

 

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

Another idea: sitter & grandparents get together and come up with a somewhat consistent schedule for the children. Like, lunch is 11:30 whichever house they're at, naptime 1-2, etc. They don't have to have the same activities (like swimming at sitters' vs movie day at grandmas), but it might help to have consistency on the basics. 

That is not likely to happen. So so much chaos in this family.  

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Katy said:

To be clear, spanking isn’t considered abuse legally.  Forcing her to hold an arm in the air (which can cause pain for much longer than a swat on the butt) IS abuse, legally speaking.  It’s not going to get kids yanked, but it’s considered abuse.  Whereas spanking isn’t optimal, it is legal. 

I did not actually know that, so thank you. I don’t think it was long term….but still. 

[pinball]

50 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ha, I said so much of this yesterday.  This sitter is related to this child and I think a lot of the relatives dislike this child.  So I did focus on the adults changing their mind set.  This child is a baby in my mind!  She is probably lacking in attention and Structure.  

This makes me sick. That idea that a 5 year is disliked by a lot of her relatives is awful. The idea that even non-family members know this? Wow...what a toxic horrible situation.

and she is the middle child. Poor little girl. 

Unless the family and extended family does a 180 in mindset and actions, this is a train wreck in the making.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, pinball said:

This makes me sick. That idea that a 5 year is disliked by a lot of her relatives is awful. The idea that even non-family members know this? Wow...what a toxic horrible situation.

and she is the middle child. Poor little girl. 

Unless the family and extended family does a 180 in mindset and actions, this is a train wreck in the making.

I mean, obviously.  Although to be fair I have known a child I did not like.  She is a teenager now and I often wonder what she is like now.

[historically accurate]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

That is not likely to happen. So so much chaos in this family.  

Bummer, I found a known schedule for those early years was very helpful in staving off the HALT (hungry, angry, lonely, tired) moments. - I was hoping since they were relatives it might work. In that case, I recommend Sitter (since she is the one looking for help) come up with a routine for her days. 

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, HeartString said:

My advice is your friend needs to quit babysitting.  She isn’t good with children and she’s causing damage.  I would 💯 fire a babysitter for that behavior.  Subway is probably hiring and would be a better fit.  

Thank you. This sitter sounds like a control freak with mental health problems. I assumed it was the parent asking op for help, not the sitter. 

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Sitter isn’t awful.  Sitter is young and overwhelmed.  The kids get a lot of good attention from this sitter….they swim at the pool, they go to the park, they do coloring and crafts, play with the dogs.  They  love these kids…they are family…but they do not know how to handle meltdowns or prevent them.  Which is why they asked for advice.  

Easy. Stop making demands. 

If you go to the Y and look they have instruction/training pages for how to handle behavior challenges. They aren't allowed to spank and have to keep it totally positive, and they are working with after school kids, daycare, all kinds of situations that can be challenging. And they're bringing in 16/17 yos sometimes to run these camp, gymnastics, etc. programs. That's where I saw the "how to handle behaviors" page. 

Rule #1? Stop making demands. Works for autism, works for anything. She's setting up the behaviors with too many demands. Tell her to conjure her "doting grandma" role and be that. WHO IN THE WORLD CARES if the kid opens his toy early????? I mean seriously, of all the things that promote safety and well being, that is not it! It does NOT MATTER. But she provoked the whole situation by increasing demands when she could have dropped them.

Rule #2? Eliminate NO from her vocabulary. She can practice rewording her instructions/guidance into a positive statement. For instance, she could say "Oh let's do this next!" or "First you choose then I will choose." These are healthy ways people get compliance without provoking confrontation. If she *needs* to say no, the least confrontational way is to say "That's not a choice." 

Rule #3? If she's tempted to punish the child, touch the child, or "discipline" the child, she needs to go take a break. Sometimes kids who aren't ready to comply will get ready with a little more time. Sometimes the adult is making the situation too personal and taking it too personally. She can just say "We need to take a break!" or "We need to think about Jesus" or "Let's go watch Frozen" or whatever. Take a break so you can think more clearly and come back with a better plan.

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

The mom wants the sitter to spank the child.  Sitter won’t do that and I agree with that.

The mom should not be outsourcing parenting of the dc to a minor. It's one thing for two adults (aunts, whatever) to have that agreement together. It's the adult's problem to discipline their dc and no minor should touch another dc like that. Do you let your siblings  spank each other? My kids were 10 years apart, and no way, no way. 

 

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

My advise was to redirect, redirect redirect.  

As usual your advice is spot on. Did you just need to hear that you're not crazy? 

[Scarlett]

10 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Thank you. This sitter sounds like a control freak with mental health problems. I assumed it was the parent asking op for help, not the sitter. 

Nah. Just a young person who doesn’t know how to handle kids.  And this isn’t a paying job nor is one needed.  It is family helping family.   

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Just a young person who doesn’t know how to handle kids.

This is partly modeling. 

Is this family matriarchal? Maybe there's some context we're missing here where these interactions are normal? 

In general, the children would be prewarned, the sitter would keep demands low and roll with things, and the parent would follow through later if the kid wasn't on their ps&qs.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

Easy. Stop making demands. 

If you go to the Y and look they have instruction/training pages for how to handle behavior challenges. They aren't allowed to spank and have to keep it totally positive, and they are working with after school kids, daycare, all kinds of situations that can be challenging. And they're bringing in 16/17 yos sometimes to run these camp, gymnastics, etc. programs. That's where I saw the "how to handle behaviors" page. 

Rule #1? Stop making demands. Works for autism, works for anything. She's setting up the behaviors with too many demands. Tell her to conjure her "doting grandma" role and be that. WHO IN THE WORLD CARES if the kid opens his toy early????? I mean seriously, of all the things that promote safety and well being, that is not it! It does NOT MATTER. But she provoked the whole situation by increasing demands when she could have dropped them.

The issue is getting the toy covered in food and then the toy getting carried around the house.  I would be the same about that.  I always had ds eat at the table and wash up after so he wasn’t transferring food to the rest of the house. So I don’t think that expectation is crazy. What is not realistic is setting a toy next to a 5 year old and saying, don’t touch this until you clean up.  Remove it from temptation. 

Rule #2? Eliminate NO from her vocabulary. She can practice rewording her instructions/guidance into a positive statement. For instance, she could say "Oh let's do this next!" or "First you choose then I will choose." These are healthy ways people get compliance without provoking confrontation. If she *needs* to say no, the least confrontational way is to say "That's not a choice." 

Rule #3? If she's tempted to punish the child, touch the child, or "discipline" the child, she needs to go take a break. Sometimes kids who aren't ready to comply will get ready with a little more time. Sometimes the adult is making the situation too personal and taking it too personally. She can just say "We need to take a break!" or "We need to think about Jesus" or "Let's go watch Frozen" or whatever. Take a break so you can think more clearly and come back with a better plan.

The mom should not be outsourcing parenting of the dc to a minor. It's one thing for two adults (aunts, whatever) to have that agreement together. It's the adult's problem to discipline their dc and no minor should touch another dc like that. Do you let your siblings  spank each other? My kids were 10 years apart, and no way, no way. 
 

The sitter is not a minor….not sure where you got that.  

 

As usual your advice is spot on. Did you just need to hear that you're not crazy? 
 

Lol yes, I absolutely wanted to hear that I gave proper advice….and to see if anyone had any more ideas. 

 

[Murphy101]

I think the sitter needs to get her crap together.

How exactly did the kid open the toy without the sitter being there? Everyone sits down to eat the meal together - all the toys and food and children in sight. 

Her punishments are stupidly unrelated, ineffective, and border on emotional abuse.  It’s obvious she does not like that 5 yr old. She may be a nice enough person who may honestly not realize this, but I guarantee the 5 yr old knows she isn’t wanted or liked there. She has every reason to scream and wail.  Someone needs to point this out to the sitter.

It’s not the kids’ fault that someone is working on the phone from home. I’m sure sometimes the 2 yr old cries - yes? This is just occasional life with young children. I would hope she isn’t punishing the 2 yr old like this too?!

I feel horrible for the poor kid.  I’d have an extremely difficult time being friends with people who treat her that way. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

I think the sitter needs to get her crap together.

How exactly did the kid open the toy without the sitter being there? Everyone sits down to eat the meal together - all the toys and food and children in sight. 

Her punishments are stupidly unrelated, ineffective, and border on emotional abuse.  It’s obvious she does not like that 5 yr old. She may be a nice enough person who may honestly not realize this, but I guarantee the 5 yr old knows she isn’t wanted or liked there. She has every reason to scream and wail.  Someone needs to point this out to the sitter.

It’s not the kids’ fault that someone is working on the phone from home. I’m sure sometimes the 2 yr old cries - yes? This is just occasional life with young children. I would hope she isn’t punishing the 2 yr old like this too?!

I feel horrible for the poor kid.  I’d have an extremely difficult time being friends with people who treat her that way. 

😞. They are all out of their league. At least sitter is asking for help.  And thanked me for my blunt honestly.  

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

The issue is getting the toy covered in food and then the toy getting carried around the house.  I would be the same about that.  I always had ds eat at the table and wash up after so he wasn’t transferring food to the rest of the house. So I don’t think that expectation is crazy. What is not realistic is setting a toy next to a 5 year old and saying, don’t touch this until you clean up.  Remove it from temptation. 

Oh that's funny. I'd give him the toy first, since ANYONE wants their happy meal toy first (hello) and then when he gets done playing with it and is hungry he can come back and be civilized.

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

The sitter is not a minor….not sure where you got that.  

You said immature (or whatever you said) and I took that to mean minor. Once you're into not a minor, this really odd behavior. 

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

😞. They are all out of their league. At least sitter is asking for help.  And thanked me for my blunt honestly.  

Do they think the dc has issues that need to be identified? Kind of an apple and tree thing?

The Red Cross has a babysitting course and no doubt they handle behavior. It used to run around $100. 

Your county probably has some positive parenting courses.