Moral luck, intergenerational lack of mobility, genetics, etc. and life outcomes

[SKL]

Like anything, it's a combination.  Mental illness and learning problems are often genetically inherited.  On top of that, some brain damage can be done in the womb if the mom is using substances while pregnant, which compounds the problem for the child.

Money definitely makes a lot of things easier, but we often don't hear about the struggles of rich people's kids because (a) there aren't that many rich people compared to not-rich people and (b) there may be more motivation for rich people to cover these things up.  Though certainly there have been plenty of very public examples.  Just look at Hollywood or the music industry.

The adoption discussion can get interesting.  On one hand, the adopted child has experienced trauma that the bio child has not, which can be an environmental factor in mental health / behavior.  On the other hand, there must be some reason why the adopted child's bio parents weren't in a situation to raise them.  Could be some problems that the adopted child inherited.  It is definitely true that statistically, being adopted increases a child's likelihood to experience certain mental or behavioral issues, but the reasons are complex.  I've also read that adopted kids are more likely than bio kids to be abused (though this was a very old statistic).  Why?  Bonding problems?  More likely to be in the system already?  Or do adoptive parents sometimes have unresolved issues of their own?  And another consideration is that we don't want to give adoption bad press.  Most adoptive families are just as healthy as non-adoptive families.

[BeachGal]

Psychologist Madeline Levine has written about the problems affluent children experience in her book The Price of Privilege.

I grew up on a reservation with significant problems in Montana and also have lived in an affluent suburb of Chicago. In each area, the origins of problems differ but in both, many children are not thriving.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Well, I agree with you in general, but the person I described in the OP happens to have a family member willing/able to pay the retainer for a private attny, my boss. So here’s this one little glimmer of advantage, despite her many disadvantages, but she apparently, so far, has not parleyed that one benefit into elevating herself. 

Often people with issues that lead to substance abuse and legal issues have severe self-worth problems, which really makes reaching out to be lifted up harder. There's also the problem with people who have sunk down coming from a place above, a history of being unable to function in that place above, and therefore being less motivated return to the place above. Staying up requires very different behaviors, frames of reference, thought patterns, and beliefs.

Another issues with my father's family (which I detailed upthread) is not having an opportunity mindset because they're not in an opportunity rich environment.  Dad, one of his brothers, and a sister all took opportunity: the guys with the military and the sister by marrying up a socioeconomic level to a man from a stable background.

Taking advantage of an opportunity requires a person to recognize it as such and accurately weigh the trade offs, especially the familiarity vs. unfamiliarity.  A cousin of mine had what most functional, successful people would consider an obvious opportunity to move to a mid-sized city and have free housing for her family (she's 40 and single, twice divorced, 3 minor aged children by 2 different men, adult child has different father than the minor kids.) She is a CNA which is a minimum wage or just barely over job and also works at a large gas station on the night shift. The father of the 3 children at home is highly gifted in electronics design but a drunk, drug and family abusing adulterer. Why he chose to live in rural ME when there's no tech work there is beyond me, but that was the beginning of the end for him.

She didn't take the offer, even after coming out to see the place.  She wanted her teenager to finish out her school year-in a crappy school with no opportunity. I doubt the thought even crossed her mind that moving earlier to get in-state tuition in the state with the free housing could have huge long-term financial implications for her oldest child at home who academically gifted. Then COVID hit and the housing was no longer available as the owners had to work from home (the housing was next door to their very, very small home) and school kids at home and needed that space to do it.

So cousin stays and keeps getting into relationships with men who are obviously bad choices-low skilled, frequently unemployed, substance abusers, domestic abusers, and usually dating multiple women. She's desperate to be loved by a man.  Her own father she never knew and her step-father was very abusive. Her mother has mental health issues (my father's sister) and is very abusive.

Cousin is far more emotionally wired than analytically wired, which doesn't pay off in most economic and many relationship decisions. She just can't seem to break away from the possibility that the next relationship is The One.  She's like a teenager on FB with drama and partner selection thought processes. She's never witnessed a healthy relationship around her.  She's in a terrible brain-drain environment and doesn't understand it or its implications.  She also doesn't get how unlikely she will be to ever marry again with so many children and at an age range where stable, family-oriented men have already paired up and are not likely to be divorced or widowed.

She doesn't understand how she's in a chaotic environment where the survival and coping skills of the men around her keep them unstable because they have little opportunity develop stable skill sets. She loves her some bad boy biker vibe, which is probably how she imagines her The One man will protect her from the other dangerous men she's dealt with, but the bad boy biker type isn't moving up the socio-economic ladder to a safer and more prosperous place.

She wants stability in a family but that kind of guy leaves very rural Maine to go to college and get employment in larger cities. Those who get highly skilled in a trade tend to leave for places with better economic environments. Those men don't want to raise their children in Nowehere, ME with crappy schools, no job opportunities, higher violence rates, and higher drug usage rates. Divorce, teen, and single parenthood are rampant there.  Marriage rates are falling across the aboard and much more so in that type of socio-economic environment. It's a hard place to get out of if you can't marry up the ladder.

[Clemsondana]

I have some memory of reading, several years ago, that for young males who get involved in the juvenile justice system, the biggest predictor of life outcome was whether they avoided being sent to 'juvie' and whether they had a girlfriend.  In other words, the best thing for them was to not be surrounded by people who would be a bad influence and to have somebody who...was a good friend? expected them to do the right thing? was a source of love?  I don't know which part it is, or a combo of the 3.  Money can be a huge cushion and provide opportunities and might put you in a better position to have good role models, but it doesn't necessarily provide good relationships.

I think nature and nurture and things like ADD tendencies (diagnosed or not), risk-taking/aversion, and personality and birth order/family role all matter, and they combine uniquely.  It seems like we can often look and explain what factors led to a particular outcome, but a different individual, with the exact same situation, might have been more influenced by a different set of factors in the same environment to have a different outcome.  

I also wonder if we underestimate the effect of off-handed comments and other forgettable experiences that can affect our life outlook.  When I was a teen, I went to a camp.  We had an 8 am class, which we, having stayed up late, trudged to.  The guy who taught it was relentlessly upbeat.  One day a student asked how he was so cheery so early, and he said that as part of his job he had to be there at 8 to teach, but whether he did it cheerily and had a good day, or grumpily and had a bad day, was up to him.  The entire interaction was less than a minute, but I remember it 30 years later and it was a big influence on my thinking as teen and young adult, especially during those years when students like to complain about being exhausted and broke.  But, it becomes a circle - having decided not to complain as much as possible, I seemed cheery, and attracted positive interactions rather that complaints, which made for a more positive day, and so on.  It's trivial, really, but I think we build a lot of those cycles into our lives without realizing it, for better or worse.  I could imagine things like work ethic, escapism, or thrill-seeking behavior all being influenced by a mix of what a person decides to do and how much 'like attracts like' is possible in their environment...and also what that looks like.  Does thrill-seeking look like riding a roller coaster or diving off the high-dive, or does it look like committing a petty crime and seeing if you can get away with it?  That's going to be affected by who is around you.  And, in some cases money can buy you a safe way to do it (like an amusement park pass), or a way out (a good lawyer) but other times can just buy you a way to get into more trouble ($ to buy a lot of drugs and avoid people noticing a problem until it's big).  

[Scarlett]

Interesting post @Homeschool Mom in AZ  My mom and I were just discussing some of that recently.  My brother has been married 5 times.  The latest one he just booted out after a few months.  When he was married to his youngest child's mother he told me if he ever got free of her he had made up his mind he would never get married or live with someone again.  Needless to say he has failed on that promise to himself. 

My mom divorced my brother's dad when he (brother) was 3 and I was 8.  She then stayed single for 28 years.  And I mean single, as there was not dating, etc.  It has made all the difference in her life.  Somehow my brother has never seen that correlation.  

 

[Carol in Cal.]

If you want to read about privilege as it relates to drug addiction, here are two suggestions:

”Imperfect Birds” by Anne Lamont (novel)

”A Beautiful Boy” by the father of the aforementioned boy.  Don’t watch the movie, which is annoyingly self-indulgent.  But read the book.

[BeachGal]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

If you want to read about privilege as it relates to drug addiction, here are two suggestions:

”Imperfect Birds” by Anne Lamont (novel)

”A Beautiful Boy” by the father of the aforementioned boy.  Don’t watch the movie, which is annoyingly self-indulgent.  But read the book.

I agree that Beautiful Boy is a good book to read. It is about Nic Sheff’s struggles with addiction written by his father, journalist David Sheff. Both father and son spoke at my children’s high school shortly after one of Nic’s initial attempts to get sober. It was obvious that he was really struggling back then but he is now sober. Nic began drinking at an early age and doing various drugs but after one hit of crystal meth, he became seriously addicted. Crystal meth is a huge problem on the reservations as well. This is an article about my former reservation from about five years ago but the situation hasn't changed much.

https://www.thedickinsonpress.com/news/crime-and-courts/4034703-fueled-drugs-sex-trafficking-reaches-crisis-montana-reservation

[SKL]

13 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

Yes, there's a definite mindset difference, or approach difference. And just a knowledge difference. Looking back on my own upbringing compared to my friends, my parents simply didn't know what advantages I could be given, while friends whose parents were born and raised with better circumstances took those advantages as just a given. 

Also, people tend to attribute their successes to their hard work and smarts, and their failures to bad luck. Luck's role in our successes is usually undervalued.

---

Also with generational trauma, I think what we consider "rising above" or overcoming it is not always what it looks like. DH is working really, really hard not to pass on his trauma to the kids. I mean, there's some passed down that he can't help, but what he is in control of he is adamant won't be given to them. But it is taking a tremendous toll on him to do so, not just mental or emotional but physically as well. And frankly, financially/career-wise. 

So on the outside it may not look like he's successfully moved past it, but really, he's not passing the buck on and doing what's best *for him*, which would be deny the problem exists and act as his parents modeled. 

Behave by Sapolsky and The Body Keeps the Score have been really helpful for him to come to terms with what the fallout may look like for him and why it's happening. When you're doing the right thing and seemingly getting punished for it, it can be a hard pill to swallow.

[Not to say that anyone with bad childhood histories/generational trauma and also outwardly successful is hiding the problem or in denial or taking it out on their kids, just offering a different perspective]

I can see some of this playing out with me.  I was born to two high school drop-outs, one severely dyslexic and the other a victim of childhood abuse (every kind) as well as poverty.  My folks were both intelligent and wanted better for us kids, and while we were very working-class and thrifty, we were never hungry.  My folks bought a [tiny] house around the time their first kid was born, and have been homeowners ever since.  They even sent us to a parochial school, and made sure we were able to go to college (using financial aid).

But I grew up always worrying about money.  I worked hard, did well in school, always had some sort of job (usually more than 1) since I was 13yo.  Went to grad school and came out a CPA, MBA, lawyer.  Still always worked at least 2 jobs, never abused substances, no trouble with the law etc.  Paid off my $85K student loans and paid off my house.  Have been debt free for over 15 years.  Saved up a "nest egg" for my own kids' education.  Also claim relatively good health, keep a reasonably decent house, and people consider me a good parent.

And I am still insecure.  I have a feeling of dread many times every day, literally.  Each time I see an email that reminds me of some work issue etc., every time I get an unscheduled phone call, etc.  It's nuts.

The other day I was driving my kid home, and the topic of her future came up.  I said, "worse comes to worst, know that you can always come home and there'll be a place for you to sleep and food to eat."  She was like, "are you kidding?  Of course I'm not going to need that."  I said, "I'm glad you are a confident person.  I have never felt that confident about my life."

Really not sure how much of my issues are inherited vs. learned.  My [biological] folks had them.  It looks like my [adopted] kid may not.  We'll see how it plays out.

[Interestingly, my kid would have won the self-control test when she was a tot/preschooler.  Over the years, she's turned out to have both learning difficulties and mental health issues (and plenty of sass), but when she wants a thing, boy, she gets it.  Not sure that's always for the best, so we'll see how that plays out too.]

[Rosie_0801]

For those who manage to get into therapy, especially as children, I wonder about the quality. My daughter listens to very little her therapist says, because she experiences it as emotional abuse. 

[Melissa Louise]

34 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

For those who manage to get into therapy, especially as children, I wonder about the quality. My daughter listens to very little her therapist says, because she experiences it as emotional abuse. 

My experience of therapy as a teen was damaging, partly due to quality of care (poor) and partly because it was forced on me. 

As a young adult, I experienced it as useless, because again, the quality was poor, but not as damaging, because there was no compulsion. 

I really did see some really terrible people. If DD isn't listening, I reckon she's just being sensible ( I dunno, but kids I know who go b/c Family Court have similar disdain. )

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

My experience of therapy as a teen was damaging, partly due to quality of care (poor) and partly because it was forced on me. 

As a young adult, I experienced it as useless, because again, the quality was poor, but not as damaging, because there was no compulsion. 

I really did see some really terrible people. If DD isn't listening, I reckon she's just being sensible ( I dunno, but kids I know who go b/c Family Court have similar disdain. )

My son HATED his therapist that I had him seeing when he was about 11.  I felt I had to do something, but trust  me it did not help.  The therapist tried to convince my son to be ok with things he should not be ok with and my son saw right through it.

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

She doesn't understand how she's in a chaotic environment where the survival and coping skills of the men around her keep them unstable because they have little opportunity develop stable skill sets. She loves her some bad boy biker vibe, which is probably how she imagines her The One man will protect her from the other dangerous men she's dealt with, but the bad boy biker type isn't moving up the socio-economic ladder to a safer and more prosperous place.

She wants stability in a family but that kind of guy leaves very rural Maine to go to college and get employment in larger cities. Those who get highly skilled in a trade tend to leave for places with better economic environments. Those men don't want to raise their children in Nowehere, ME with crappy schools, no job opportunities, higher violence rates, and higher drug usage rates. Divorce, teen, and single parenthood are rampant there.  Marriage rates are falling across the aboard and much more so in that type of socio-economic environment. It's a hard place to get out of if you can't marry up the ladder.

Ooooh. That really hit on something.
SIL was raised to have a man take care of her. She’s attracted to hard workers (and I’m not calling gold digger level, just hard work mentality), but hard workers are often attracted to other hard workers of some sort. She doesn’t work hard for employment or on the home front. (Her mother hadn’t for nearly 20 years, either.)
The ones who stick around the longest are the ones with the most problems of their own, but even they seem to tire of the figurative and literal mess. Not always before leaving a child behind.

I’m about a year removed from the details, so maybe that’s changed due to legal motivations. But probably not enough to have done a full 180 after so long.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Scarlett said:

My son HATED his therapist that I had him seeing when he was about 11.  I felt I had to do something, but trust  me it did not help.  The therapist tried to convince my son to be ok with things he should not be ok with and my son saw right through it.

Yeah, it's really hard to find a good fit, and it's a profession that attracts its fair share of cranks. 

I sent DD at 11 too. Hard to get around that element of compulsion with kids. 

What I wish was that all kids received CBT and self-compassion skills over the 12 years of the school curriculum.

At the school where I work, it's almost horrifying how clear it is the kids who will struggle. Neglect + anxiety + poor emotional regulation. Tracks with academic and behaviour outcomes, with individual interventions seeming to make not much of a difference. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

My anecdotal experiences, based on working with vulnerable populations professionally and my own extended family adventures....

I think, generally, you're as good as your circle of 5 closest people.

You can have good experiences as a blue collar/crazy life circumstances family. You can have bad ones.

You can have good experiences as a financially stable/crazy life circumstances family. You can have bad ones.

The correlation I see between those who have been able to leave their drug habits and abusive circumstances behind them have been the networks of the people that they surround themselves with. If they mostly hang with a dysfunctional crowd, it is hard to leave that behind. If they are able to get some stability around themselves---be with people who are trying to make good choices--mental health issues aside, they generally do well.

Mental health issues can blow all of that to hell. Sometimes your brain just doesn't function well--this is especially true in schizophrenia and major depression, imo.  Likewise, if you have a severe trauma background, that tends to stick with you.  Severe trauma can cause organic brain differences. Like, if you side by side two seven year olds and their MRIs, you can match brain imagery to kid given their differing backgrounds. 

[Emba]

I recently read a book, The Other Wes Moore, by Wes Moore, that dealt with some similar issues as are being discussed here. Two boys from generally the same social environment and class, same neighborhood. One ended up successful in life, one ended up in jail for life. It was very interesting, though not as illuminating as one might hope. I wouldn’t say that’s the fault of the author, but that there are no easy answers. I do think social support was one important factor in that case, one thing that really made a difference.

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

My anecdotal experiences, based on working with vulnerable populations professionally and my own extended family adventures....

I think, generally, you're as good as your circle of 5 closest people.

You can have good experiences as a blue collar/crazy life circumstances family. You can have bad ones.

You can have good experiences as a financially stable/crazy life circumstances family. You can have bad ones.

The correlation I see between those who have been able to leave their drug habits and abusive circumstances behind them have been the networks of the people that they surround themselves with. If they mostly hang with a dysfunctional crowd, it is hard to leave that behind. If they are able to get some stability around themselves---be with people who are trying to make good choices--mental health issues aside, they generally do well.

Mental health issues can blow all of that to hell. Sometimes your brain just doesn't function well--this is especially true in schizophrenia and major depression, imo.  Likewise, if you have a severe trauma background, that tends to stick with you.  Severe trauma can cause organic brain differences. Like, if you side by side two seven year olds and their MRIs, you can match brain imagery to kid given their differing backgrounds. 

Very much to the bolded

 

[Rosie_0801]

11 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yeah, it's really hard to find a good fit, and it's a profession that attracts its fair share of cranks. 

To be fair, it's not a therapist's fault they can't cure the incurable. Just don't create more mess, is all I ask. Abuse isn't a cure for abuse.

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

To be fair, it's not a therapist's fault they can't cure the incurable. Just don't create more mess, is all I ask. Abuse isn't a cure for abuse.

It's one of the professions that attracts a high % of people with strong power-orientations. Like teaching, the police and a couple of other areas  It's a reasonable expectation (don't make things worse) but so much of that seems like luck of the draw - getting someone who has actually done the personal work to avoid misusing their position, subtly or otherwise.

[prairiewindmomma]

38 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

What I wish was that all kids received CBT and self-compassion skills over the 12 years of the school curriculum.

 

This is actually something that is partially happening in our school district, only they are starting it in kindergarten. They are teaching everyone self-regulation skills, and are bringing in specialists on dealing with anxiety, depression, and trauma.  The school counselors are dealing with housing and food stability and clothing issues in their student populations as well. The schools have all moved to a trauma-informed model of handling behavioral issues and are seeing huge positive results.

I just sat through the local jr high meeting for fall enrollment. They have massively changed out the electives they have offering just from when oldest left that school last year (2020). They have dropped jr high foreign languages to bring in Adulting 101 classes on personal finances management, basic cooking, etc.  They have changed Advisory period to be all on emotional development and executive functioning training.

I hear an announcement is coming for high school this week. 

I totally wish that all over 12s had CBT here, but they are hiring more counselors and they are putting health clinics into the high schools.  

We have a huge bond/higher property taxes in our district to make it happen, but already graduation rates are up just in the last few years of doing stronger outreach and credit recovery. I very strongly believe that when we invest in education and physical and mental health we pay less in criminal justice costs and generational poverty support overall.  Spend money to save money, iykwim.

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

For those who manage to get into therapy, especially as children, I wonder about the quality. My daughter listens to very little her therapist says, because she experiences it as emotional abuse. 

We went to multiple psychologists before we found one that worked.it took close to 2 years to find the right one 

She is brilliant. So brilliant that I don't think we would have been able to continue parenting twins without her. She has helped us to completly change our parenting style, to help us see that the reason that the boys present  behaviours as they do is caused by the damage that has happened to their brain and not personal. 

She has formed a relationship with the boys and got them to trust her enough to disclose info about their past. 

The other psycologest were absolutely terrable. One we only went to once. She was really out there and wanted to do some pretty physically aggressive banned in some countries treatment

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

If you want to read about privilege as it relates to drug addiction, here are two suggestions:

”Imperfect Birds” by Anne Lamont (novel)

”A Beautiful Boy” by the father of the aforementioned boy.  Don’t watch the movie, which is annoyingly self-indulgent.  But read the book.

I read “A Beautiful Boy” several years ago when I was mulling this same question over in a college class. A classmate recommended it. While it was quite a compelling story, I can’t say it really made these musings clear to me. I can see where certain things were probably not beneficial or the parent(s) ought to have made different choices, but it didn’t really “make perfect sense” to me. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Emba said:

I recently read a book, The Other Wes Moore, by Wes Moore, that dealt with some similar issues as are being discussed here. Two boys from generally the same social environment and class, same neighborhood. One ended up successful in life, one ended up in jail for life. It was very interesting, though not as illuminating as one might hope. I wouldn’t say that’s the fault of the author, but that there are no easy answers. I do think social support was one important factor in that case, one thing that really made a difference.

I loved that book. I agree about social support, but there was also money in the “good” Wes Moore’s case. Neither was rich but the “good Wes Moore’s grandparents were willing to put every penny they could scrape up to send him to the private school. That clearly made a difference. 

[Emba]

19 minutes ago, Quill said:

I loved that book. I agree about social support, but there was also money in the “good” Wes Moore’s case. Neither was rich but the “good Wes Moore’s grandparents were willing to put every penny they could scrape up to send him to the private school. That clearly made a difference. 

Yes, there was a little more money, but I was actually thinking of that as part of the social support, because he had grandparents to go to and ask and who were willing. It’s all interrelated. And they knew people who had gone to the military school, to even know the option existed.

[Teaching3bears]

20 hours ago, Resilient said:

Anecdotal only: there is something to be said for having insight into the way the world works.  

It's not just "having money" that gives you an advantage.  It's knowing how and why to get into what university and having the money to pay for it. I can't put it into exact words, but I have seen it play out in reality.  Take two families with the same amount of money, the same start in life--the family that comes from "older money" will do better than the "newer money" family.  

 

Interesting ...  and if one does not come from older money but wants to give advantages to their kids what should they do to learn what to do?  What exactly is the how and why?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SeaConquest]

There are several factors at play. The genetics of addiction is one. My sister and I can take the same drugs, but I can use them recreationally whereas she will become addicted. People have different receptors and don't all get the same responses to drugs/medications. That is simply the luck of the genetic draw.

Environment is huge. Social determinants of health basically determine how long most of us are going to live. This is backed by tons of research, which is why the government is so focused on correcting these underlying factors. It isn't socialism; it's basic good governance and taking care of the health of your people. https://health.gov/healthypeople/objectives-and-data/social-determinants-health You don't have a lot of control over a lot of these issues on an individual level, especially as a child or if you are poor.

Exposure to trauma. We still have a pretty darn violent society in the United States and the body keeps the score. "One does not have be a combat soldier, or visit a refugee camp in Syria or the Congo to encounter trauma. Trauma happens to us, our friends, our families, and our neighbors. Research by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has shown that one in five Americans was sexually molested as a child; one in four was beaten by a parent to the point of a mark being left on their body; and one in three couples engages in physical violence. A quarter of us grew up with alcoholic relatives, and one out of eight witnessed their mother being beaten or hit." https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/06/20/the-body-keeps-the-score-van-der-kolk/

All of these things coalesce, together with some of the other issues mentioned above, to determine much re life outcomes.

Edited May 20, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Emba said:

Yes, there was a little more money, but I was actually thinking of that as part of the social support, because he had grandparents to go to and ask and who were willing. It’s all interrelated. And they knew people who had gone to the military school, to even know the option existed.

Yes, I agree that is part of social supports, but money is an important factor because it put him around a different group of peers. Those peers were largely people who did have an opening into a better life. All that does influence a person. 

[Guest]

Quote

Exposure to trauma. We still have pretty darn violent society in the United States and the body keeps the score. "One does not have be a combat soldier, or visit a refugee camp in Syria or the Congo to encounter trauma. Trauma happens to us, our friends, our families, and our neighbors. Research by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has shown that one in five Americans was sexually molested as a child; one in four was beaten by a parent to the point of a mark being left on their body; and one in three couples engages in physical violence. A quarter of us grew up with alcoholic relatives, and one out of eight witnessed their mother being beaten or hi

Those statistics cause me to feel great skepticism. One in five are sexually molested as a child? How can that be true? One in three couples is physically violent? How can that be true? And, my parents were big on spankings (or, my mother was), and we were definitely paddled hard enough to leave a mark. While I don’t think it was ideal parenting at all and I didn’t repeat that with my own kids, I think saying it was traumatic is overstating the case. Lots of parents were philosophically pro-spanking but the kids grew up without trauma tied to that. 

With that said, I still agree that society is more violent than it should be. 

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, Quill said:

Those statistics cause me to feel great skepticism. One in five are sexually molested as a child? How can that be true? One in three couples is physically violent? How can that be true? And, my parents were big on spankings (or, my mother was), and we were definitely paddled hard enough to leave a mark. While I don’t think it was ideal parenting at all and I didn’t repeat that with my own kids, I think saying it was traumatic is overstating the case. Lots of parents were philosophically pro-spanking but the kids grew up without trauma tied to that. 

One may end up with trauma based consequences without *feeling* traumatised. 
It is not uncommon for children who've grown up in such an environment to learn to be overly obedient because they've been trained that they are not the sort of person whose boundaries will be respected, for example.

[SeaConquest]

47 minutes ago, Quill said:

Those statistics cause me to feel great skepticism. One in five are sexually molested as a child? How can that be true? One in three couples is physically violent? How can that be true? And, my parents were big on spankings (or, my mother was), and we were definitely paddled hard enough to leave a mark. While I don’t think it was ideal parenting at all and I didn’t repeat that with my own kids, I think saying it was traumatic is overstating the case. Lots of parents were philosophically pro-spanking but the kids grew up without trauma tied to that. 

With that said, I still agree that society is more violent than it should be. 

I think Americans have normalized a great deal of violence that is shocking in many other cultures. Spanking is a very good example. Our insane gun culture is another. This book is very well-regarded, but the author is Dutch, so keep that in mind re what we have internalized as cultural norms. 

[SeaConquest]

54 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

One may end up with trauma based consequences without *feeling* traumatised. 
It is not uncommon for children who've grown up in such an environment to learn to be overly obedient because they've been trained that they are not the sort of person whose boundaries will be respected, for example.

Exactly. My sister and I were both also spanked and hit with a belt. She has borderline, bipolar, and anxiety, and has struggled with addiction. I have bipolar and anxiety. Would those mental illnesses have emerged had we grown up in a less violent household? Perhaps, but there is a ton of research that shows that you can have a genetic predisposition for mental illness and yet, in a more supportive environment, have a lower risk of that illness developing. So, while I don't blame my parents for our illnesses, as they did the best that they could with the limited parenting tools that they were given from their own upbringings, I sure as heck don't hit my kids and am highly attuned to their emotional well-being. When you know better, you do better.

Edited May 20, 2021 by SeaConquest

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Those statistics cause me to feel great skepticism. One in five are sexually molested as a child? How can that be true? One in three couples is physically violent? How can that be true? And, my parents were big on spankings (or, my mother was), and we were definitely paddled hard enough to leave a mark. While I don’t think it was ideal parenting at all and I didn’t repeat that with my own kids, I think saying it was traumatic is overstating the case. Lots of parents were philosophically pro-spanking but the kids grew up without trauma tied to that. 

With that said, I still agree that society is more violent than it should be. 

I have no trouble believing that at least one in five are sexually molested as a child.  Violent couples, I don't know stats, but I know plenty of women who have been beaten by their husbands / boyfriends.  I tend to agree with you that a spanking is not necessarily violence, but there certainly are some kids whose spankings/beatings have been traumatic.

[HeartString]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

I have no trouble believing that at least one in five are sexually molested as a child.  Violent couples, I don't know stats, but I know plenty of women who have been beaten by their husbands / boyfriends.  I tend to agree with you that a spanking is not necessarily violence, but there certainly are some kids whose spankings/beatings have been traumatic.

I have no problem believing these stats. Especially if there are over time.  A couple may not often or frequently be violent, but infrequent violence is still violence and can still cause trauma.  Same with kids.  A parent who spanks or yells might be in a realm of “normal” the vast majority of the time, but occasionally step over the line.   Over an 18 year childhood, I think these numbers play out.  
My personal experience leads me to think all three of those are too low.  

[HS Mom in NC]

5 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

  Severe trauma can cause organic brain differences. Like, if you side by side two seven year olds and their MRIs, you can match brain imagery to kid given their differing backgrounds. 

Yes!  And stressed brains can't retain and process information like calm brains can, so children from high stress households are far more likely to struggle academically.

[LucyStoner]

I don't know.  I've read a lot on this topic and the more I learn, the less I think I know.  

I am one of those who "beat the odds" at least in most respects, though I know childhood trauma has taken a toll on me in different ways.  My childhood was marked by instability, addiction, severe poverty (including being homeless more than once) and other unfortunate things.  

On the scale of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE), I think I score a 7/10.  Anything over a 4 is associated with a plethora of negative outcomes health and life outcome wise.  My mom's ACE score was a 10/10 and I do think it contributed to her premature death.  She died at 55 from cancer.  

Not too long ago I switched counselors and she scored me on a resiliency scale.  The things that upped the resiliency score were things like "my family talked about ways to make our lives better", "I remember a parent playing with me as a child" and "I knew there were adults outside my home who cared about me".  My counselor noted that my score on this was pretty high but I don't remember the scale.  

My sons have an ACE score of 1 (because I would say that they have a parent with mental health challenges in large part due to how I lived as a child.)  I like to think that they will have a decent shot of not sinking back to my roots.  

Evaluating my mother's life (my mom came from a highly dysfunctional family whereas my dad came from a fairly functional family), I think the single biggest thing she did to help me and my brothers have more of a chance than she did was that she married a man with significantly fewer issues than the men that she grew up around- my dad had mental health issues, was an relapsing alcoholic and a flibbertigibbet at holding a consistent job (he spent much of my childhood "going back to school" for yet another major he wouldn't actually finish and use) but he didn't beat (or even hit) anyone, didn't sexually abuse anyone and he didn't commit any crimes, which was much more par for the course in her family.  To my mom, my dad's troubles were still a big net gain over what was the norm in her family.   My grandmother was in and out of prison and my aunts both ended up with men who harmed them over and over again.

Also of note, she converted to a faith that my absolutely obnoxious grandmother hated.  This created more distance between them and eventually led to physical distance that spared me direct experience for more than a short time here and there with my mother's very dysfunctional family.  My mom's faith I think also brought her some healing.  We struggled with a lot but there was a lot of good there too- for instance, my mom taught me to read and made education and church a priority.  Our church often cushioned the hardest parts of poverty, at a couple of different times we lived in houses owned by the church.  Had my dad been someone more like my maternal cousins' dads or my mom had remained living near my grandmother when we were children, I think things would have been much worse.  

I have two siblings.  Both have had it rougher than I have as an adult.  One is very dysfunctional, shitty parent and physically battered his ex-wife and the other has a lot of challenges but prioritizes his kids and has some positive things going in his life.  Not being addicted to anything more than caffeine has probably helped me and my younger sibling. My older brother's life has been marked by significant addictions- gambling, drugs, alcohol.  

I am the only one who graduated from high school or college thus far (my younger brother is starting college at age 38 in the fall) and my marriage has been far more stable and nurturing than theirs have been. I am the only one with a professional level earning ability. I consider myself very fortunate.  

Edited May 20, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

Those statistics cause me to feel great skepticism. One in five are sexually molested as a child? How can that be true? One in three couples is physically violent? How can that be true? And, my parents were big on spankings (or, my mother was), and we were definitely paddled hard enough to leave a mark. While I don’t think it was ideal parenting at all and I didn’t repeat that with my own kids, I think saying it was traumatic is overstating the case. Lots of parents were philosophically pro-spanking but the kids grew up without trauma tied to that. 

With that said, I still agree that society is more violent than it should be. 

Sorry I am quoting myself, but it seemed easier than quoting three posters. 

I still don’t see these stats bearing out. I can imagine there are “pockets” where those stats make total sense. But I guess I just got hit in the face with the Privilege stick, because these stats just don’t seem possible to me. Maybe especially one in three couples are physically violent. Like just...what? So if I’m sitting with my nine friends, statistically three of them have had physical violence in their marriage. That seems crazy-cakes to me.

I have been married for 26 years. We have not always had sunshine and lollipops. There have been a very few instances when I screamed or cussed him out or he has done. Like, less than five total times. But never has it ever gone to pushing, punching, slapping, shutting a door on someone’s arm or etc. (That’s an example from a case in our office.) Never have I thought, gee, my safe, violence-free household is so unusual. 

Actually, I think it would be detrimental for young people to think those stats are accurate because it could minimize beliefs. If you think lots of people do XYZ, it feels easier to do XYZ yourself. 

[Indigo Blue]

8 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

One may end up with trauma based consequences without *feeling* traumatised. 
It is not uncommon for children who've grown up in such an environment to learn to be overly obedient because they've been trained that they are not the sort of person whose boundaries will be respected, for example.

Like.

[1234]

I have no trouble believing those statistics. I feel I’ve had an extremely privileged life but I, myself, was sexually abused at nine and my own mother had a short marriage prior to my dad and her dh beat the crap out of her. I don’t think anyone would guess that about either of us. 

The topic is interesting. Dh comes from a large family and all his siblings are adopted. Four of them have had no trouble in their lives while the other two have been in and out of jail and one has even lost her kids. There was no difference in how they were raised and all were adopted as infants. There was always a lot of familial support offered but there was very little money available for help outside of that.

[HeartString]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Sorry I am quoting myself, but it seemed easier than quoting three posters. 

I still don’t see these stats bearing out. I can imagine there are “pockets” where those stats make total sense. But I guess I just got hit in the face with the Privilege stick, because these stats just don’t seem possible to me. Maybe especially one in three couples are physically violent. Like just...what? So if I’m sitting with my nine friends, statistically three of them have had physical violence in their marriage. That seems crazy-cakes to me.

I have been married for 26 years. We have not always had sunshine and lollipops. There have been a very few instances when I screamed or cussed him out or he has done. Like, less than five total times. But never has it ever gone to pushing, punching, slapping, shutting a door on someone’s arm or etc. (That’s an example from a case in our office.) Never have I thought, gee, my safe, violence-free household is so unusual. 

Actually, I think it would be detrimental for young people to think those stats are accurate because it could minimize beliefs. If you think lots of people do XYZ, it feels easier to do XYZ yourself. 

National statistics are going to be weird like that.  If there are pockets where 100% of women experience partner violence over the course of their lifetime, and pockets where 0 women experience partner violence over the course of their life and those 2 groups are your sample you are at 50%.  

I think too that the age range of who they were surveying to get those would be interesting.  Out of my friend group I can think of no one that I know or would suspect has ever had violence in their own marriage, ever.  But thinking about those same people I know more than one whose parent's marriage had violence.  Not abusive marriages, marriages that were mostly ok but every couple of years or so there was a violent incident. 

I can think of many in my small group of friends who experienced that as children too.  The childhood wasn't filled with abuse.  But every couple of years or so there was a violent incident, adding up to 2 or 3 remembered violent incidents over the course of an 18 year old child hood. There is a lot of over lap with the ones who also experienced violent incidences in the parents marriage.  Mostly its Dads who manage to hold it together for the most part but then explode every year or three.

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Sorry I am quoting myself, but it seemed easier than quoting three posters. 

I still don’t see these stats bearing out. I can imagine there are “pockets” where those stats make total sense. But I guess I just got hit in the face with the Privilege stick, because these stats just don’t seem possible to me. Maybe especially one in three couples are physically violent. Like just...what? So if I’m sitting with my nine friends, statistically three of them have had physical violence in their marriage. That seems crazy-cakes to me.

I have been married for 26 years. We have not always had sunshine and lollipops. There have been a very few instances when I screamed or cussed him out or he has done. Like, less than five total times. But never has it ever gone to pushing, punching, slapping, shutting a door on someone’s arm or etc. (That’s an example from a case in our office.) Never have I thought, gee, my safe, violence-free household is so unusual. 

Actually, I think it would be detrimental for young people to think those stats are accurate because it could minimize beliefs. If you think lots of people do XYZ, it feels easier to do XYZ yourself. 

You’re not a poor religious fundamentalist or an addict.  And neither are your friends.  Talk to a social worker. There are definitely pockets where those numbers are much higher.  Fortunately the numbers decrease with education and money.  Not that violence never happens in marriages with money, but the spouse has more options to escape. 

The second most frequent reason kids who have stayed in our home from foster care was domestic violence against the mother.  In some cases it wasn’t caught until the woman fought back, and in one case killed her husband.  It’s more common than physical & sexual abuse of kids as a reason to enter care.

Like many people I’ve been researching cults in the pandemic. And in the past few weeks IFB.  Yesterday I heard there was a surprising number of registered sex offenders in their clergy. I can’t remember the exact number but it was multiple thousands in a denomination that has something like 5,000-6,000 churches. 

Apparently Michelle Duggar once gave a speech and she was asked if it was appropriate for a husband to beat his wife and she agreed it was appropriate if he wasn’t being submissive. There are still people who are taught it not only is normal, but it’s right.

I disagree that education normalizes anything. Any more than teaching kids to be responsible if they choose to have sex makes them more or less likely to have sex. Kids who are taught nothing still have sex, but far less responsibly.

[egao_gakari]

23 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I think too that the age range of who they were surveying to get those would be interesting.  Out of my friend group I can think of no one that I know or would suspect has ever had violence in their own marriage, ever.  But thinking about those same people I know more than one whose parent's marriage had violence.  Not abusive marriages, marriages that were mostly ok but every couple of years or so there was a violent incident. 

I was going to say something similar about childhood sexual abuse. I don't think I personally know anyone my age who was sexually abused as a child, although I know one who was clearly being groomed for it until her parents found out. But my mom was twice assaulted by men in positions of authority (a teacher and a seminarian) before age 16, and in her 20s was groped in public by strangers on two separate occasions. She also grew up in the city and I grew up in the countryside.

And actually, the people involved don't consider it to be sexual abuse, but among the men I know in my age bracket, there are several whose first sexual experiences were at the 11-13 age range... with babysitters. Girls in the 15-18 age range. I think a researcher might well count that as sexual abuse for the purposes of a study, even if the victims themselves don't recognize it as such.

[Lecka]

I had a conversation with my sister recently.  She is in her 50s and I am in my 40s, but there is a large age gap.

She doesn’t think she knows anyone, anyone at all, who takes a medication like Prozac or any other kind of anxiety or depression or ADHD medication.

None, zero.  She really believes this.

And — maybe it is true.  
 

But it is shocking to me, I have known many, many, many people since I was in college, and one of my high school friends changed her life after being depressed in high school and then trying anti-depressants early in college.  Her parents had been opposed to thinking she was depressed while she was in high school, they thought she was just whiny.  
 

We know a lot of the same people, and I think to a great extent my sister is just not someone that anyone would bring it up with.  It is fairly private but could come up here and there, I think.  
 

Anyway — the domestic violence statistics seem believable to me.  I think in a group of 9 — yeah, it does depend a lot on just what 9 people those are.  I don’t think it is spread out randomly into every possible group of 9 people.  But it is a believable statistic to me.  
 

The sexual abuse seems sadly high, but I have known several adults who were molested, and I knew many girls starting from middle school who got pregnant from guys in their 20s.  That was a pretty normal thing when I was growing up. 
 

There was also child molestation related to one of my kid’s pre-school group of parents and kids.  An older step-brother molested a pre-school boy playing at their house.  The family with the step-brother had a teen step-sister and a little pre-school boy, and the family acted like everyone was making a big deal over nothing and moved across a jurisdictional line to try to make everything go away — and I think that might have worked, I don’t really know.  
 

I definitely don’t seem like the kind of person who would have had something like that happen in my circle.  
 

Edit:  with the pre-school thing, maybe only two parents (including me) knew about it, definitely not everyone knew about it, because we all thought there would be a stigma on the little boy that could follow him.  I was actually pretty good friends with both the moms and our 3 sons were a group of boys that always played together.  Then that mom was close to one other mom.  I don’t think the others knew — a group of probably 8 more families who went to the same pre-school and socialized together for kid activities and gatherings.  

Edited May 20, 2021 by Lecka

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

You’re not a poor religious fundamentalist

True, but that’s where I come from. IMO, my parents had many dysfunctional ways in marriage, stuff I did not want to repeat, but if my dad ever harmed a hair on my moms head, I would be totally amazed. He wasn’t even an administer of spankings, though I do think he believed it was biblically mandated. As far as I know, he never administered any spanking or paddling; my mother did. 

[SKL]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

Sorry I am quoting myself, but it seemed easier than quoting three posters. 

I still don’t see these stats bearing out. I can imagine there are “pockets” where those stats make total sense. But I guess I just got hit in the face with the Privilege stick, because these stats just don’t seem possible to me. Maybe especially one in three couples are physically violent. Like just...what? So if I’m sitting with my nine friends, statistically three of them have had physical violence in their marriage. That seems crazy-cakes to me.

I have been married for 26 years. We have not always had sunshine and lollipops. There have been a very few instances when I screamed or cussed him out or he has done. Like, less than five total times. But never has it ever gone to pushing, punching, slapping, shutting a door on someone’s arm or etc. (That’s an example from a case in our office.) Never have I thought, gee, my safe, violence-free household is so unusual. 

Actually, I think it would be detrimental for young people to think those stats are accurate because it could minimize beliefs. If you think lots of people do XYZ, it feels easier to do XYZ yourself. 

You are unable to believe that you are among the 2/3 of couples that aren't physically violent?  Being in a 2/3 majority doesn't make your violence-free household unusual.

The thing about spousal abuse (or child molestation for that matter) is that most victims are too ashamed or afraid to talk about it, and even if you knew that your friend or sister was being hit, you wouldn't blab to others, especially if she was staying with the hitter.  But when one person opens up, many others have their own stories to share.

[livetoread]

In my groups of friends, I know of two women who hit their husbands. Not routinely afaik, but it was still violent and still utterly unexpected given the face they show to the public. I'm sure most who know them would never believe there was violence in the marriage.

[SKL]

And yes, there are some subcultures (not just religious ones) that believe it's no big deal for a wife to be hit, and in some strange subcultures, at least when my folks were growing up, it was nbd [to the men] for fathers or uncles to mess with their daughters/neices.  I personally know some of the victims.

Thankfully, my dad was not from any such subculture and does not have a violent personality.  My mom's dad was/did.  Some families on my street growing up (both neighborhoods) definitely had spousal abuse, and criminal child abuse in some cases.  I have friends and relatives in my generation who have told me of being hit by spouses/partners; there are probably more who don't tell me.  I would also say that a majority of the kids I grew up with (boys and girls) experienced some form of sexual mistreatment as kids.

If this is decreasing in recent generations, that is great news.  But don't assume that because nobody is telling you or you don't see it, it can't be happening.

[SeaConquest]

Does anyone not remember the #MeToo days on FB? I don't know about you all, but I am Gen X, with a fairly educated expanded friends group overall and the *majority* of my friends posted a #MeToo post. Most of my friends don't talk about about their trauma -- whether marital violence or sexual abuse -- unless it is in the context of being supportive to another friend going through the same issue. If you aren't one of those people, then you likely have no idea re the trauma they've experienced. Likely because I'm pretty open about my own issues, typically nonjudgmental about other people's stuff, and good in a crisis, I have generally been the person that people go to with their problems, so I tend to know a lot about my friends' pasts.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

RE the bolded text - have you watched the Preacher Boys podcasts? I just discovered them on Youtube and it was my first introduction to the IFB although I must have known people who attended these churches but I didn't realize what it was. 

Yes, I just discovered them. They referenced an article from a Texas newspaper that discussed it. It’s stunning.

[regentrude]

Lots of things to consider. Just wanted to comment on the last post and a few who brought up access to education:

While that is an important topic, I  think one should not conflate being functional with being educated.One can be stable and functional while working in a job that doesn't require much education. Many folks with little education were able to lead stable lives without violence and substance abuse. 

When we see a correlation with education, there is also the factor that for persons with underlying issues the education may be unattainable,  and their mental illness/learning disability/substance problem is the *cause* for their educational level, and not vice versa.

Edited May 20, 2021 by regentrude

[Katy]

23 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Lots of things to consider. Just wanted to comment on the last post and a few who brought up access to education:

While that is an important topic, I  think one should not conflate being functional with being educated.One can be stable and functional while working in a job that doesn't require much education. Many folks with little education were able to lead stable lives without violence and substance abuse. 

When we see a correlation with education, there is also the factor that for persons with underlying issues the education may be unattainable,  and their mental illness/learning disability/substance problem is the *cause* for their educational level, and not vice versa.

I think the point about education is it gives you options. You have more ways to escape and more knowledge that it’s possible. That’s power, and power means you’re far less likely to put up with abuse. 

Power imbalances make abuse much more likely. 

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Lots of things to consider. Just wanted to comment on the last post and a few who brought up access to education:

While that is an important topic, I  think one should not conflate being functional with being educated. One can be stable and functional while working in a job that doesn't require much education. Many folks with little education were able to lead stable lives without violence and substance abuse. 

When we see a correlation with education, there is also the factor that for persons with underlying issues the education may be unattainable,  and their mental illness/learning disability/substance problem is the *cause* for their educational level, and not vice versa.

I agree.  The inverse is also true- we see people who are educated but live highly dysfunctional lives or struggle with addiction.  My FIL was a medical doctor.   His marriage and home life was very dysfunctional and he died at 60 from illness related to his alcoholism.  My husband's maternal grandparents were quite stable overall and his only post high school education was training to be a mechanic.   Education helps people in many ways but it's not a cure for addiction nor is it a guarantee of being a functional spouse or parent.  

Edited May 20, 2021 by LucyStoner