thanks for the help!

[hs03842]

Thank you to everyone for sharing your perspectives along with challenging viewpoints and encouragements as I navigate a new neighborhood during covid.  It has given me a lot of food for thought, and I appreciate you!

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by JoyKM

[GoodGrief3]

Can you give an example of the behavior?

I do think it's a hard time to meet new people right now. People are nervous about contact with others in general, and especially others whose habits they don't know.

[hjffkj]

what type of cliquish behavior are they doing?  we moved into a neighborhood with tons of kids that all play together. But of course there are some friendships that are stronger than others and we have to respect that sometimes when neighbor kid 1 and neighbor kid 2 are outside together it doesn't mean that they always want neighbor kids 3, ,4 and 5 joining in. I wouldn't call that type of behavior cliquish though.

[hs03842]

It's more among the parents.  A certain group of moms congregate in one particular driveway and hang out/do chalk, whatever.  I've walked my kids down there and hung out a few times assuming that, because they are "front yard people," they want to/are willing to meet others (this is how I would feel but I guess not everyone is like that...live and learn).  Overall I thought that things had been going well.  My girls hit it off with a few of the kids, and the moms seemed normal.

Well, yesterday they decided to hire a Santa for pictures with Santa, then install him in the front driveway.  We only discovered it when we drove past the house on our way home from visiting grandma.  It was very obviously a coordinated, planned effort, and they arrived all dressed up for pictures/a front yard party.  Kind of like throwing a block party but not inviting one or two houses, those houses being people who have made an effort to be outside and know the neighbors.  Now, our family doesn't believe in Santa. (These people don't know that.)  Our kids have never believed that he is anything other than a fun Christmas character, and we don't have a pictures-with-Santa tradition.    This is not something they would really get to be honest.  However, if we had been casually hanging out in the front yard during this event they would have wanted to go over there to hang out and have fun and may have been turned away.  To top it off, a couple of the moms had been walking home from it past our house as we got out of the car, and they avoided eye contact and were kind of dodgy about it which was weird.  Today I went out to the mailbox near the driveway and, while I would normally have a chat with people during that, nothing.  This is rather lame behavior for women in their late 20s/early 30s.  I have come to not expect this sort of thing and am now dealing with it from people I live near.  😒  [To note:  I grew up with all brothers and am absolutely deficient in female drama and code speak.  This issue has plagued me my whole life but has also been great.]

From my perspective--yeah, it stings to have have been left out of something like that/not even told.  We are the only family with small children on the street that seem to have not been given the memo which makes me feel a little worse (and wonder if homeschooling is a part of it as we are the only homeschoolers on the street...).  But, in reality, normal me would be like, "I don't need this crap," and have already met other friends in other contexts.  This is a bit rough for me because my kids have come to rely on playing with kids whose parents quite obviously don't want us around.  So...what does someone do?  I'd like to just make a bunch of friends at a co-op or something and not really pay attention to the Jr. High on the street, but I'm afraid that my kids will be constantly pressuring me to go outside/be sad about not being able to play with these conveniently present neighborhood street kids. 

So.  What would you do?  How would you expand your kids' social life in this circumstance?  What do you do when neighborhood kids/people aren't a good fit? 

[Shoeless]

I think I would not read much into this, in light of the pandemic. These are not normal times and many, many, many people are proceeding with extra caution regarding whom they spend time with.

How long have you lived in this neighborhood? A few weeks or months?  They may need more time to know you before they want to invite your for holiday events. 

Have you invited them to come hang out?  

It sounds like their kids still play with your kids? If so, then just...let the kids play and find your own friends apart from your kids. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by MissLemon

[Katy]

Ignore it entirely.  When the pandemic is over then work on getting to know others.  In the mean time it doesn't matter.  Many times with cliquish behavior it's about status.  When someone is dismissive, implying you are a lower status and you react, you reinforce you are lower.  When you don't respond you're implying you're superior without being as obnoxious as saying so. People who have strong boundaries don't need the approval of other people, and by ignoring it you're displaying strong boundaries. That will improve your status.

There may be something else going on, some minor slight or something to do with the pandemic, or maybe your child told another child your family doesn't believe in Santa. Whatever it is, it will likely pass with time.

 

[katilac]

I wouldn't hold it against the neighbor kids 🤷‍♂️. 

The kids are there and they will play with your kids. Handy. I wouldn't think about it further than that - you may not have fun family get-togethers, but the kids can still play. 

 

[hjffkj]

I'm sorry that happened. under those circumstances I wouldn't immediately believe they don't want your family around entirely, just not for this particular thing.  Maybe it was arranged and paid for by all of them but they felt they didn't know you enough to do an event involving money.  Maybe it was an afterthought. Maybe they could only have so many people because of covid.  You just don't know so don't jump to extreme conclusions off of one event.

Can I ask you why you didn't have a chat with people on your way to the mailbox?  Did you say hi and they ignored or did you not say anything because you felt it was on them to say hi after what happened?  Maybe they felt embarrassed about a misunderstanding and didn't say hi because of that?  I'm just suggesting multiple scenarios.

If that happened to me I wouldn't think too much of it.  There are times that I don't want every single neighbor kid over.  We have a pool and it is often  a major hangout for neighbor kids in the neighborhood.  But sometimes my kids only want one or two of the kids over or sometimes I want the kids less likely to cause an issue over.  All the other kids know because they can hear the fun and they see the neighbor kids walking home wet and with towels.  Those decisions aren't a reflection on my dislike of the families. Just a reflection on sometimes see like to manage who is over.  

This happens with neighbors across the street too.  They have two girls who only play out front.  Sometimes my kids play with them but other times they are playing with another neighbor kid and don't invite ours over.  That is ok. No one is hurt because it is ok to not always want to hang out with everyone

[wintermom]

It's a very tough time to be in a new neighbourhood trying to navigate through new acquaintances. I think you are pretty darn lucky to have any people outside willing to play with others to be honest. That is not happening at all in my area because of covid. People don't hang out and play outside of family groups, that I've noticed.

In normal circumstances, it takes time to get to know others and it's hard to be patient when you are the one on the outside trying to become part of a group. Don't give up. Be thankful for what you can do right now and know that things will get better with time. 

All the best!

[Happy2BaMom]

Well, I've dealt with this type of issue a few times (unfortunately), due to semi-frequent DH job moves during one stretch of life. I have a slightly different perspective.

My summary (based on *my* experience, I ain't sayin' this is true for everyone): the situation(s) never really improved over time, e.g. if we were outsiders from the start, we never really were allowed inside. Sometimes I would rationalize it...."we're new, we can't expect to be instantly accepted, let's give it time and keep showing up and help out where we can, reach out when we can, etc etc etc". And I'd work, and wait and eventually think - finally! - that we were starting to be accepted...and then something like the Santa thing would arise and I would realize (painfully) that, no, we were still not really part of the group, at least not in the way(s) I wanted or hoped to be. 

I'm convinced now that it's a group (& personality) dynamic thing. Mom groups are analogous to dating. Some just aren't that into any outsiders. They don't want to change the group dynamics. They're comfortable. They are not really concerned about your (or your kids') experience, not because they're mean, but because they don't really believe you to be part of their group. They may even slightly resent that you've moved in and are trying to upset the apple cart.

Eventually I quit trying to form deeper bonds with groups that just weren't that into me/us, and went and found my own groups. So. Much. Easier.

And I know you are hamstrung right now due to the pandemic. But, even with that, I'd research like crazy to identify groups you can join as soon as safe/comfortable, and I know that may be a few to even some months away. But use the time to get ready, because you will need those outside contacts if things don't change. (I'm not a fan of Dr Phil, but I do love his adage, "the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior".)

Just make do where you are at. Accept that sometimes you're kids will have playmates and sometimes not (which may be easy for you, but, if your kids are hungry like mine were, they are probably the ones wanting more interaction from the neighbors than what's being offered). It's not easy, I know.

And I hope it does change for you, and that you & the kids end up being fully accepted and welcomed and you look back on this as just a rough start. But I recommend that you don't put energy into trying to change the dynamics if you're the only one interested in changing them.

HTH.

 

 

 

[Xahm]

Are you completely sure they don't know about your Santa stance? If that happened to me (we just have Santa as a fun game that done people like to play), I'd suspect one of my kids said something to another kid while playing, and that led to a difficult conversation later. That would explain both not being invited and people feeling very awkward. When is filtered through two separate kids, no one knows whether you are extremely anti Santa, just not into it, or something else.

If that's not it, I'd try to make friends with neighbors one mom/couple/family at a time. There might be cliques, but that doesn't mean no one will be friends with you.

[HS Mom in NC]

What means of communicating do you expect them to use for planned events? If it's knocking on your door, is it possible you weren't home the time(s) they tried?

Is it possible whoever was coordinating intended to invite you but it slipped through the cracks or there was confusion among those coordinating as to who was supposed to contact you and everyone thought it was someone else's job?

I agree that out of caution your kids might have said something about not doing Santa and it got back to the parents who assumed you would be offended if your kids were invited.  My older kids were not invited to an annual Harry Potter party for a few years because we attended a Baptist church at the time.  We were the only family at the church who did let our kids read Harry Potter-the other parents were horrified.  So I can see why they weren't invited for some time.  When my kids started discussing Harry Potter with the hostess' kids, they were put on the invitation list with the hostess explaining she avoided inviting us out of trying not to offend us. She'd been burned before by extending an invitation and was scolded for even suggesting the recipients might do Harry Potter. I assured her there were no hard feelings, I understood her motivation and sympathized with her position. 

Have you invited the other moms to your house either individually or as a group?  If not, why? 

I ask all these questions as someone who moved 2.5  years ago and knocked on the neighbors doors introducing myself and my daughter after a week of waiting for the adult neighbors to knock on mine and introduce themselves. There are 42 houses in my neighborhood. About 1/4 people were home when I happened to knock. The neighbor kids knocked on the door inviting daughter out, but not the parents didn't contact me.   Then I coordinated the first neighborhood block party by putting a survey and my contact info on a flier and knocked on doors.   I personally invited those who answered and left the flier in mailboxes of those that didn't. About 12 families showed up.

After meeting people at the block party, I invited a few families to our house to get to know our family better. Then I helped a neighbor coordinate a second block party because she asked me to. I set up a neighborhood FB page and put a note in every mailbox letting people know about it.  Then I wrote with fat chalk on the street where we all enter and exit the neighborhood with the name of the neighborhood FB page asking people to join.  We have about 2 dozen families involved in the FB page. I wave and talk to people passing by on the street, even if we haven't met.   I take flowers to families that move in and give them the name of the neighborhood FB page. 

ETA: All that is on hold due to COVID around here besides kids playing outside together.  I'm not saying do these things now during a pandemic, I'm saying make a serious effort to hit it from all the angles instead of waiting for someone else to make your neighborhood social life happen.  And no, I'm not an extrovert.  I behaved contrary to my nature because it was necessary to get what I wanted.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[hs03842]

Thanks everyone.  Lots of good points here.   Right now we are moving in to a self quarantining phase so that we can visit with some elderly relatives for Christmas.  I've told the kids that they aren't going to get to play outside with kids right now.  They've been through this two times before during a potential exposure (negative) and a weird bug we got (just to make sure).  After that it will be much harder to keep them inside.  I have no idea how a Santa discussion may have gone amongst the kids.  😂  We don't hate on Santa, they just don't believe he is real.   We tie it to St. Nicolas and an example of generosity to copy--in essence we are "Santa" when we are generous during the holiday season.  I've told them many times not to talk about that with other kids because a lot of kids believe in Santa, but who knows.  Kids talk.  I'm always out there while they play, and they don't really seem to be merely chatting much.  It's mainly tag, hide and seek, stuff like that.  

I've been aware through reflection that just because I live near these people it doesn't mean that they are good friend material.  These are people I have allowed into our lives due to 1) convenience and 2) a general value we have of reaching out to neighbors/being neighborly.  We make a specific effort to meet people, though it does occasionally take time at the scope that we like to do.  I do not believe in waiting for others to come to me--I need to go to them.  In the past I have been able to make rounds multiple times until we have connections established.  We have lived here almost seven months.  This neighborhood has way, way more young families than where we have lived in the past which has shaken up my typical approach more than I thought it would.  Now that we've settled I am hoping to take Christmas/holiday treats to 36 houses along with a Christmas card to either greet people we know or meet people we haven't gotten to yet (mainly older neighbors who I really like knowing).   Typically we have had older neighbors or other more receptive neighbors who have been more friendly.  This neighborhood isn't bad, but that doesn't mean friend material lives here.  

Anyways I'm sure it's a newbie thing to question if this sort of stuff comes from being a homeschool family.  We are totally open to continuing to reach out in a neighborly fashion, but at this point I've dropped some hopes of having good friendships with that particular group as a group.  I'm more concerned long term with having to be out there more than I want to so that the kids can play.  Finding companionship for the kids without having to drive all over the place is kind of priceless at this point.  I guess that's a silver lining in itself.

 

[katilac]

14 minutes ago, Xahm said:

Are you completely sure they don't know about your Santa stance? If that happened to me (we just have Santa as a fun game that done people like to play), I'd suspect one of my kids said something to another kid while playing, and that led to a difficult conversation later. That would explain both not being invited and people feeling very awkward. When is filtered through two separate kids, no one knows whether you are extremely anti Santa, just not into it, or something else.

Yes, and OP, your kid may have worded it much stronger than what your actual Santa stance is. Kids say some straaaange things, in strange ways, sometimes. 

We had the no Harry Potter neighbors who were obviously not invited to my kids' Harry Potter party. Unrelated to HP, but very related to kids saying things you would never expect them to say: one of their kids was playing at our house and pointed to a religious emblem, loudly saying, "We hate (religious emblem)." 

While her family followed a different faith tradition, I know very well that 'hating X'  was not a part of it and not what they taught her. They would have been horrified to know she had said that! And it was absolutely not a kid you would have expected it from. So, while you may think there's no possible way your kids said something extremely negative about believing in Santa, it's definitely possible that they did. Naturally they would not have invited them, and,, like Xahm said, it could have added caused the awkward behavior after it. 

Basically, I wouldn't be sweating it too much based on what you've said. It sounds like it was mainly this one thing, and I wouldn't write things off based on one thing. There could have easily been a misunderstanding. 

[katilac]

13 minutes ago, JoyKM said:

We don't hate on Santa, they just don't believe he is real.     

I've told them many times not to talk about that with other kids because a lot of kids believe in Santa, but who knows.  Kids talk.  I'm always out there while they play, and they don't really seem to be merely chatting much.  It's mainly tag, hide and seek, stuff like that.  

 

My family did do Santa, and let me assure you: the non-Santa kids always talk about it. Always. It's like, "tag, you're it, and Santa Claus isn't real!" 😂

[Farrar]

That's super awkward. Like, I agree with everyone else that on a practical level you should try to show grace that maybe there was something weird about pandemic decisions or maybe they actually knew you didn't "do" Santa, but let's be real... they were weird to you about it. It was weird.

I think the big thing is to remind yourself of two things over and over...

They were weird and rude and that's on THEM, not you. Holding a neighborhood kid specific event outside in front with all the neighborhood kids clearly planned and invited except one family whose gaze you refuse to meet during and after is weird and rude even if they think you don't do Santa or are too new to the 'hood to trust with the Santa who has Covid exposure fears or whatever else might have led them to reasonably think their behavior was okay. That's on them. Like, they revealed that they're weird in a bad way to you. That's not about you - that's about them. They are the ones who decided to do it that way.

They are terrible friend material, as you say. You have other friends. These are your neighbors. You need cordial relations with them and should just treat them normally and friendly and like you would any neighbors, but you now know that unless things change dramatically, they're people that you need to be nice to but not really have any expectations of. Like, next time they do something odd and rude like that you can chuckle and say, oh, those neighbors, they're just being themselves. And if they surprise you by not being weird, hey, aren't lowered expectations great! And if, over time, you all realize that you misunderstood each other and do become friends, what a great surprise. But in the meantime, no expectations from them.

 

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

My family did do Santa, and let me assure you: the non-Santa kids always talk about it. Always. It's like, "tag, you're it, and Santa Claus isn't real!" 😂

Um, let me assure you that my kids did not. They were little freaks about obeying rules when they were small. I told them not to and they didn't. Now, they were unusual in their self-control as little kids so I do think most kids don't have those boundaries. But really, some kids are outliers.

Adding that we had a much bigger problem with them unable to keep their mouths shut about not believing in God. But I never told them that was off limits.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Farrar

[hs03842]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

That's super awkward. Like, I agree with everyone else that on a practical level you should try to show grace that maybe there was something weird about pandemic decisions or maybe they actually knew you didn't "do" Santa, but let's be real... they were weird to you about it. It was weird.

I think the big thing is to remind yourself of two things over and over...

They were weird and rude and that's on THEM, not you. Holding a neighborhood kid specific event outside in front with all the neighborhood kids clearly planned and invited except one family whose gaze you refuse to meet during and after is weird and rude even if they think you don't do Santa or are too new to the 'hood to trust with the Santa who has Covid exposure fears or whatever else might have led them to reasonably think their behavior was okay. That's on them. Like, they revealed that they're weird in a bad way to you. That's not about you - that's about them. They are the ones who decided to do it that way.

They are terrible friend material, as you say. You have other friends. These are your neighbors. You need cordial relations with them and should just treat them normally and friendly and like you would any neighbors, but you now know that unless things change dramatically, they're people that you need to be nice to but not really have any expectations of. Like, next time they do something odd and rude like that you can chuckle and say, oh, those neighbors, they're just being themselves. And if they surprise you by not being weird, hey, aren't lowered expectations great! And if, over time, you all realize that you misunderstood each other and do become friends, what a great surprise. But in the meantime, no expectations from them.

 

Honestly this perfectly sums up my thoughts. I have thought that it was on them and that, on some level, they should feel bad because, personally, it's the rudest thing I've ever seen done in a neighborhood.  I mean--right out in their front yard?  Wow.  It did lower my expectations of them, and quite swiftly and dramatically.  I have been a bit sad about it because I do tend to like being friendly with neighbors.  

Now it's more of a "hmmm...are my kids going to want to go out with these people now?  Because I don't want to.  But there are no other kids."  😕

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, JoyKM said:

Honestly this perfectly sums up my thoughts. I have thought that it was on them and that, on some level, they should feel bad because, personally, it's the rudest thing I've ever seen done in a neighborhood.  I mean--right out in their front yard?  Wow.  It did lower my expectations of them, and quite swiftly and dramatically.  I have been a bit sad about it because I do tend to like being friendly with neighbors.  

Now it's more of a "hmmm...are my kids going to want to go out with these people now?  Because I don't want to.  But there are no other kids."  😕

I would bite your tongue about their weirdness and exclusion around the kids. Just zip it and vent to your friends or your dh as needed if they pull this sort of thing again. I would continue to encourage the kids to appropriately make friends with the kids unless anything changes to make you think they're a bad influence or something. I think you can still be "friendly" even if you're not going to be "friends" any time soon. I know this is hard to do in practice, but I would say your goal now is to keep making friendly overtures in a general way on behalf of the kids on neighborhood harmony, but to do it with zero emotional investment. 

And when the pandemic ends, there will be more opportunities for your kids and you to find new friends in the area. And maybe the neighbors will relax too and show that the pandemic was just making them this way. You never know. But it will be a nice surprise if they do because you're (hopefully) going to have no emotional investment in whether they come around or not. You're just going to keep being kind and pretending they're not as rude as they were.

Seriously, when people tell stories on this board like this, most of the time I'm thinking... be understanding, you might be jumping to conclusions... but here it's like, maybe they did have a reason to exclude you or forgot about the new folks or something - in fact, they probably did because most people aren't just malicious for no reason, but not to also pretend you weren't standing right there as they walked past or explain themselves when you saw them. Like, come on.

[Spryte]

I agree with Farrar.  Completely. It was weird and rude.  

I also think that you don’t need to let this bother you, too much.  Be cautiously friendly, if you want, but low expectations. I think it’s perfectly fine that you have a quarantine coming up, it makes for less interaction. You need a break.

We’ve lived in our neighborhood for 5.5 years.  I worked hard to be “that house” where all the kids play, because I wanted to keep an eye on things.  We would have 11 - 20 kids in our yard almost every day, pre-pandemic.  I fed them all, got to know them all, and still I can count on one hand the number of parents who walked over and introduced themselves.  Mostly, I got to know the kids, and usually walked home with them at least once to give my number to their parents.  But that’s it.  The parents simply did not reciprocate, for the most part. I did a lot of inviting them over - parents, I mean - and about six of them were receptive to regular interactions.  Two became fairly close friends. But mostly - we’re just neighbors.  Waving and stuff.  Our family had a rule about inviting all kids when we had a party (thus the infamous Cupcake Wars party with 35 kids in our basement, decorating cupcakes, heaven help me), but the other families didn’t.  

I can’t begin to guess why they did a party in the front yard and didn’t invite everyone.  Weird and rude, that sums it up.

If it makes you feel better, we’ve had two sets of neighbors move in since Covid, and it’s just been hard to get to know them.  So it’s really a strange time, I think.

Welcome to homeschooling!  Wish you lived in our neighborhood!

[Tanaqui]

49 minutes ago, katilac said:

My family did do Santa, and let me assure you: the non-Santa kids always talk about it. Always. It's like, "tag, you're it, and Santa Claus isn't real!" 😂

 

Hm. In my experience, adults can't shut up about Santa, even when it's clear the kid isn't interested in the subject, and that often filters down to adjacent kids, and sooner or later even the most patient child is going to snap.

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Um, let me assure you that my kids did not. They were little freaks about obeying rules when they were small. I told them not to and they didn't. Now, they were unusual in their self-control as little kids so I do think most kids don't have those boundaries. But really, some kids are outliers.

Same. We just said, "Other families like to pretend about Santa. It is the parents' job to tell them that Santa is not real. It is not your job to tell them. Don't do it." The end. No problems. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by MercyA

[katilac]

43 minutes ago, Spryte said:

 I can’t begin to guess why they did a party in the front yard and didn’t invite everyone.  Weird and rude, that sums it up.

 

Now I'm wondering if this is just a neighborhood thing, because people in my neighborhood have front yard parties and  get-togethers all the time, and nobody thinks anything of it.  A lot of people have more open space in the front yard than the back, so more room for a canopy or certain outdoor games or bouncy houses for the kids. 

[katilac]

Editing because Mercy was nice and edited her OP, and danged if she's gonna be nicer than me 😄

Edited December 8, 2020 by katilac

[MercyA]

Thanks, @katilac, from saving me from the ire of tomorrow's Hivers. 🙂 

Edited December 8, 2020 by MercyA

[katilac]

Just now, MercyA said:

Darn it, what are you doing up so late? I edited that out and hoped no one would see it. 😉 

I STAYED UP LATE JUST TO CATCH YOU OUT, BWA HA HA!! 

[Shoeless]

Dang it, I was hoping to avoid the Great Santa Debate this year. Why will this rotten holiday tradition never die? 😞 

[MercyA]

 

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

Dang it, I was hoping to avoid the Great Santa Debate this year. Why will this rotten holiday tradition never die? 😞 

I TRIED TO DELETE IT! 

☺️

[katilac]

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

Dang it, I was hoping to avoid the Great Santa Debate this year. Why will this rotten holiday tradition never die? 😞 

Because sometimes we get tired of debating cupcakes and shopping carts, and we like to be seasonal. 

[hjffkj]

I think it is a bit extreme to say this whole group of neighbors isn't friendship material off of one incident.  

[Tanaqui]

9 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Dang it, I was hoping to avoid the Great Santa Debate this year. Why will this rotten holiday tradition never die? 😞 

IT IS THE BEST TRADITION AND I WILL GO TO MY GRAVE DEFENDING IT.

But seriously, I don't actually care if you all do Real Santa with your kids or Santa Is Pretend or No Santa or even Santa Is Evil - I just want adults to take a hint and not try to cajole Santa Talk out of a kid who doesn't want to do it or has already said they don't believe. I don't go up to other people's kids and talk about how nice it is to pretend Santa is real, do I?

[Tanaqui]

4 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

I think it is a bit extreme to say this whole group of neighbors isn't friendship material off of one incident.  

Agreed. In a way, that's a sort of the sort of behavior we're all condemning.

Sure, it's a few weird incidents... but so often in my life I've had people utterly misunderstand my behavior or intentions, and think I was being rude or standoffish or mean when I wasn't. (Or, occasionally, that I was being nice when really I was so not.) I'd try to wait until I had a little more evidence before I considered this a pattern.

[Shoeless]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

IT IS THE BEST TRADITION AND I WILL GO TO MY GRAVE DEFENDING IT.

But seriously, I don't actually care if you all do Real Santa with your kids or Santa Is Pretend or No Santa or even Santa Is Evil - I just want adults to take a hint and not try to cajole Santa Talk out of a kid who doesn't want to do it or has already said they don't believe. I don't go up to other people's kids and talk about how nice it is to pretend Santa is real, do I?

I don't really care what anyone else does, either. I just hate the squabbling that someone is/is not a better parent because they do/do not participate in the Santa tradition.  

Festivus is my favorite tradition. I wish more people got behind that one. 

[IfIOnly]

2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I don't really care what anyone else does, either. I just hate the squabbling that someone is/is not a better parent because they do/do not participate in the Santa tradition.  

Festivus is my favorite tradition. I wish more people got behind that one. 

Just read up on it on Wiki, and this is genius! LOL. We don't celebrate religiously or do Santa or commercialism and kind of march to the beat of our own drum during most holidays. Will be doing a little more research. Thanks! 😘

[Tanaqui]

15 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I don't really care what anyone else does, either. I just hate the squabbling that someone is/is not a better parent because they do/do not participate in the Santa tradition.  

Festivus is my favorite tradition. I wish more people got behind that one. 

You know what it is? Santa is something you do (or don't) when your kids are small, and parents can be so obnoxiously rigid and self-righteous when their kids are little. I know I sure was, and I wasn't nearly as bad as some people! It's like something happens and we all become strident adolescents for a while.

And then things which shouldn't be such a big deal loom ENORMOUS.

[Tanaqui]

(If anybody takes offense to that comment, well, you're the exception.)

[MercyA]

34 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

It's like something happens and we all become strident adolescents for a while.

Oh, man, I had a list a mile long of things my kid wasn't going to do. 

And now she does, like, almost all of them. (Not Santa. But she's too old for that anyway. 😉)

ETA: Sorry for the bunny trail, @JoyKM. 🐇 (<-----not the Easter Bunny.)

Edited December 8, 2020 by MercyA

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't understand why you are tying this to homeschooling?  It doesn't seem like anyone has brought up homeschooling in a negative light.  It just seems like a neighborhood dynamics thing to me. 

I also don't understand why you are writing off friendship due to one incident.  Not all friendships will be besties.  Not all friendships will revolve around the same activities.  I would assume that in a non-Covid year that these parents would not hire a Santa for the front yard but would go down to the mall or wherever Santa visits/portraits are done and it wouldn't have come up in the neighborhood.  It might have been awkward for them if they realized that they had contracted for X number of photos and that wouldn't accommodate your children.  They should have still waved or said hi but not everyone is socially adept. 

If you are planning on giving cards etc. to neighbors then go ahead and do it even if those people might not reciprocate.  We took goodies around for years.  Many people seemed to appreciate it but didn't really reciprocate in kind.  But we weren't keeping score so it was ok. 

Also - neighbor kid friendships seemed to go in cycles to some extent.  Different groups of kids got along at different activities and at different stages of development. 

[Shoeless]

29 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

You know what it is? Santa is something you do (or don't) when your kids are small, and parents can be so obnoxiously rigid and self-righteous when their kids are little. I know I sure was, and I wasn't nearly as bad as some people! It's like something happens and we all become strident adolescents for a while.

And then things which shouldn't be such a big deal loom ENORMOUS.

Oh definitely. There are so many things I was obnoxious about when kiddo was a wee one. I had a lot of BIG OPINIONS. I still have a lot of BIG OPINIONS, but I'm mostly too tired to debate anyone about them. 

[RootAnn]

8 hours ago, JoyKM said:

1)  Have you/do you experience cliquish behavior from neighbors?  How did you discover that they were like this?

2)  How do you work around cliquish people while maintaining an overall positive rapport with them?  This particular type of person I'm dealing with would be best kept feeling at least neutral towards our family as a neighbor even if we don't pursue friendship--which is looking like a no going forward.

3)  How are your children impacted by this, or what do you tell them to keep them from going out to play so much?  The worst thing I've realized about these people is the potential that they have to hurt my children's feelings with their or their children's behavior.

1) Parents loudly announce to their kids that it is time to go in when certain other children are seen outside even if their kids just got out there. You overhear the parents telling the kids, "You know you aren't allowed over there" as they shoo their kids in the front door. [Note: wasn't my kids this happened to & this was pre-Covid]

2) Polite but distant. Wave, smile, low level chit-chat. 

3) I have not been able to keep my kids from getting hurt by unkind kids or rude parents. We talk about it & try to move on. I am sure these events have impacted my kids negatively but I don't know how I would have seen these particular instances coming or prevented them beforehand. 

We no longer have kids my children's ages in the immediate area. The other families all moved (except for one family whose house is now for sale but their kid is now in college). We have young families here now & the cycle has continued with new people. I can see the drama from the outside. It is hard to watch the snobs & hear the neighbor kids asking their mom why the other neighbors don't like them.

I wish you luck. In my experience, only time changes things & that is because the kids grow up or the families move, or both.

[GoodGrief3]

Based on the example you gave, I think it’s too soon to assume the neighborhood is cliquish. I agree that it is very possible your kids shared your viewpoint on Santa. People may just need time to warm up too. 
 

That said, if the neighborhood proves that it’s not a source of friendships, I’d certainly look elsewhere once life is more normal again. Our neighborhood is not social at all, and all my kids’ friendships were from activities. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by GoodGrief3

[QueenCat]

I'd wonder if Santa had a limit on how many could gather for an activity that he was being paid for... it's a possibility.

[TechWife]

Can you look for other avenues to make friends within the neighborhood? I am in a neighborhood book club that formed after the pandemic began. We meet once a month on Zoom.

Also, is there a neighborhood activities committee? If not, can you form one? Ours plans activities for the kids and for the whole neighborhood. Things the activities committee has done during the pandemic are:

• bunny foot prints on everyone's sidewalk at Easter
• hosting food trucks w/order ahead, pickup only
• neighborhood scavenger hunts that can be completed as a family, but you see others out and about, then share results on the neighborhood facebook page - it's helped people get to know each other
• coordinating the above mentioned book club (there are three clubs based on time of day/day of week that people can meet)
• End of school year parade of cars for high school students
• Halloween decorating contest
• Christmas decorating contest
• promoting charity collection efforts - I am hosting a porch drop off toy drive for our children's hospital. It's publicized on our neighborhood facebook page & I've met a lot of people through emails and messaging. I'm hoping it can help us form closer friendships when we are able to resume normal activities

I have some less than friendly neighbors, too. They have held a few casual outdoor gatherings and excluded me and it's weird to walk by them. I understand.

[HS Mom in NC]

Also, you said you've been there almost 7 months.  So you moved in during the pandemic.  I would advise anyone to remember that the likelihood of people altering their social behavior outside their already established interactions is extremely high.  No one should make any assumptions about their new neighborhood's social norms during a pandemic, especially considering how politicized the pandemic is.  I imagine some people don't want to be accused of being sheeple (following recommendations) or science deniers (not following recommendations) by the other camp based on their behaviors.  Why risk getting sucked into an argument at worst or an unwanted label at best with the new wild card neighbor who might strongly disapprove of whatever you're doing, like inviting them to a large gathering? 

And after 20 year of homeschooling, I would say it's fairly common newbie psychology to immediately label uncomfortable social interactions as, "Because we're homeschoolers" when it's almost never the case.  By newbie I mean newbies who aren't philosophical homeschoolers to begin with.  My anecdotal experience is people who started in institutional school settings then moved to homeschooling were already far more group-approval oriented, so they're hypersensitive the possibility someone won't approve of their outside the norm choices.  Philosophical homeschoolers are usually people who are far less group-approval oriented and comfortable with being perceived as outside the norm, so it usually doesn't cross their minds that someone's behavior is based on some sort of prejudice against homeschoolers.

[HS Mom in NC]

Oh, I almost forgot.  For those of you who think your kids wouldn't trash talk the Santa game because you explained to your kids that it's not nice to interfere with fun games other people play at Christmas, even though we don't play them, you're probably wrong. I would've said the same thing about my kids until Joanne (Yes, that Joanne you all know and love from TWTM boards from years ago) told me my oldest had been a little twerp to her oldest by telling him that it's wrong to do Santa.  No, oldest didn't hear that from me or my husband, we were very careful to reiterate every year that it's not wrong, we just don't do it and we should never ruin it by saying anything negative about Santa. And yes, she was generally a very complaint kid. Since then I have heard from others that this happens with frequency and they're on the fence about saying anything to the parents of the offending child, usually opting not to. Joanne is a great friend who will address things as they come up and I have always appreciated that about her.

I do think there's a backlash element to it because of annoying adults (usually elderly) who can't talk to kids about anything other than Santa during the holidays.  They also can't take a hint when the kid or the kid's parent tries to redirect the conversation about other elements of Christmas to avoid the topic all together instead of getting into a "Santa doesn't come to our house" conversation.  I don't think that's all of it, sometimes kids just like to be right or in the know about something that the adults know but most of the other kids don't know. It can make them feel more adult or special.

[hs03842]

Thanks for everyone's input!  I'm feeling better about this today and have a better idea of what direction to go.  My husband is an introvert with social anxiety, so I have not discussed this with him.  His answer is always, "Why do you care about this!  Just ignore them indefinitely and stay inside!"  😂  Thanks to you all I have been able to come up with a solution without bothering him or even any of my other family members.  I'm going to act like nothing happened, treat them politely, and move on.  There are other neighbors to meet who do not have children playing in the street--older, empty nesters, teens, etc.--and, honestly, I'd rather find a few families that don't let their kids do that to invite to our house for play dates in the backyard eventually.  I do need to remember that people aren't always genuine and that some people don't always have kind intentions without letting it ruin everything for me.  Overall that sort of stuff has had a very small role in my life, so I can be thankful for that!  Sorry for bringing up Santa...I was just mentioning it to say that the event itself wouldn't have been necessarily our style but that it would have been nice to be included especially as new people.  

7 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don't understand why you are tying this to homeschooling?  It doesn't seem like anyone has brought up homeschooling in a negative light.  It just seems like a neighborhood dynamics thing to me.

I'm chalking it up to a newbie reaction, though I have experienced a different, defensive reaction from a lot of people (not just these neighbors) in telling them we are homeschooling this year.  Typically it's other mothers of school aged children who are not homeschooling.  My long term friends and family have been supportive or are/were homeschooling, too.  It hasn't been terribly mean, and I have made a point of validating the choices of others, but there is an edge there that I didn't know about until I was the homeschool mom.  It wasn't enough to write people off, just a new thing to me.  Having been in their shoes, I guess I know why some may react like that at first meeting (see below).

14 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

  My anecdotal experience is people who started in institutional school settings then moved to homeschooling were already far more group-approval oriented, so they're hypersensitive the possibility someone won't approve of their outside the norm choices.  Philosophical homeschoolers are usually people who are far less group-approval oriented and comfortable with being perceived as outside the norm, so it usually doesn't cross their minds that someone's behavior is based on some sort of prejudice against homeschoolers.

This may be part of it, though there are a lot of people willing to do their own thing while using the public school (ahem...not doing Santa for instance 😅.  And you should see how we dress...😂).  In my experience it really wasn't uncommon for a public/private school parent to get heavily criticized by -some- homeschool families (typically at church) about how bad parents are for using school outside the home, and, at least for me, I always assumed that a homeschool parent I was speaking to was thinking those things about me when I talked to them.  It was very specific to that interaction.   It's like you start off below zero in the interaction and really can't recover.  Being on the other side of that now is helpful for me--it's nice to see that it can feel the same way from the other side.  I have to remember that people can feel tacitly judged by a homeschool family simply because they assume that the person is thinking poorly of them without anyone being specifically negative to them in that moment.  This isn't perhaps the best way to approach people, but it may be built on past experiences.  If a family makes you feel judged just by being there--without even saying or doing anything to you, merely making a different choice--then it can be easier to just not want them to be around.  That dynamic I am familiar with since it was pervasive at my home church growing up.  So it's not that "they don't like/approve of us because we are homeschoolers," it's "these people feel uncomfortable around us since we are homeschoolers."  Kind of a different thing. Overall it has been helpful to see this, and it gives me a general sense of compassion for moms in both boats.  My mind jumped to that in this case because I really can't think of another reason they would act this way beyond being uncomfortable around us.  But oh well.  Moving on.

 

[wintermom]

I can't imagine the challenges of being in a new area, new to homeschooling, having young children and trying to make connections during this crazy covid situation. Any one of those factors are tough, but you have to try and navigate them all at once. 

I really hope that you can find a nice, friendly family that you connect well with, to help make this transition time a pleasant experience. All the best!

[TravelingChris]

9 hours ago, hjffkj said:

I think it is a bit extreme to say this whole group of neighbors isn't friendship material off of one incident.  

Yes, because while I think the house it was at aren't your friends, often the other people wouldn't know that you weren't invited.

[KungFuPanda]

11 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I ask all these questions as someone who moved 2.5  years ago and knocked on the neighbors doors introducing myself and my daughter after a week of waiting for the adult neighbors to knock on mine and introduce themselves. There are 42 houses in my neighborhood. About 1/4 people were home when I happened to knock. The neighbor kids knocked on the door inviting daughter out, but not the parents didn't contact me.   Then I coordinated the first neighborhood block party by putting a survey and my contact info on a flier and knocked on doors.   I personally invited those who answered and left the flier in mailboxes of those that didn't. About 12 families showed up.
 

I applaud the general DIY energy, but nobody should be putting flyers in mailboxes. It’s illegal. I’m just mentioning it in case someone wants to copy your mostly great ideas. 

[importswim]

22 hours ago, JoyKM said:

It's more among the parents.  A certain group of moms congregate in one particular driveway and hang out/do chalk, whatever.  I've walked my kids down there and hung out a few times assuming that, because they are "front yard people," they want to/are willing to meet others (this is how I would feel but I guess not everyone is like that...live and learn).  Overall I thought that things had been going well.  My girls hit it off with a few of the kids, and the moms seemed normal.

Well, yesterday they decided to hire a Santa for pictures with Santa, then install him in the front driveway.  We only discovered it when we drove past the house on our way home from visiting grandma.  It was very obviously a coordinated, planned effort,(maybe, but that doesn't mean it was coordinated/planned to exclude you- assumption) and they arrived all dressed up for pictures/a front yard party.  Kind of like throwing a block party but not inviting one or two houses, those houses being people who have made an effort to be outside and know the neighbors.  Now, our family doesn't believe in Santa. (These people don't know that.)  Our kids have never believed that he is anything other than a fun Christmas character, and we don't have a pictures-with-Santa tradition.    This is not something they would really get to be honest.  However, if we had been casually hanging out in the front yard during this event they would have wanted to go over there to hang out and have fun and may have been turned away (But they weren't so you're imagining this response -assumption) .  To top it off, a couple of the moms had been walking home from it past our house as we got out of the car, and they avoided eye contact and were kind of dodgy about it which was weird (did you talk to them? What did they say?)  Today I went out to the mailbox near the driveway and, while I would normally have a chat with people during that, nothing (did you try or were you waiting for them to talk to you?).  This is rather lame behavior for women in their late 20s/early 30s.  I have come to not expect this sort of thing and am now dealing with it from people I live near.  😒  [To note:  I grew up with all brothers and am absolutely deficient in female drama and code speak.  This issue has plagued me my whole life but has also been great.]

From my perspective--yeah, it stings to have have been left out of something like that/not even told (I highly doubt it was a purposeful exclusion).  We are the only family with small children on the street that seem to have not been given the memo (Seem to be...but you don't know - assumption) which makes me feel a little worse (and wonder if homeschooling is a part of it as we are the only homeschoolers on the street...).  But, in reality, normal me would be like, "I don't need this crap," and have already met other friends in other contexts.  This is a bit rough for me because my kids have come to rely on playing with kids whose parents quite obviously don't want us around.  So...what does someone do?  I'd like to just make a bunch of friends at a co-op or something and not really pay attention to the Jr. High on the street, but I'm afraid that my kids will be constantly pressuring me to go outside/be sad about not being able to play with these conveniently present neighborhood street kids. (They're junior high because you've been putting motives on them that you don't know are true? From this one instance?)

So.  What would you do?  How would you expand your kids' social life in this circumstance?  What do you do when neighborhood kids/people aren't a good fit? 

Respectfully, you are waaaaaaaaay overthinking this one situation and making assumptions about people's motives when you have no idea about what they were. I get it because my first thought often is assumptions about people's motives but then I have to talk myself down and realize that what I'm thinking happened may not be what actually happened. 

Would it have been thoughtful of them to invite you over for the Santa thing? Sure, but there are so many things that could have happened to prevent this that don't involve you. Don't automatically assume that it's because they don't like you and definitely don't cut them off and count them as cliquish and not a good fit because of this one experience.

Gently, you've said this has plagued you your whole life. Do you read into a lot of situations assuming the worst? I used to do that but have learned that my feelings and first thoughts aren't always trustworthy of being true.

I hope that you are able to find some peace AND some friendships at your new place!