How do other HSers handle general drift of society? (long, sorry)

[Happy2BaMom]

I've run into a challenging situation with my local library system that has set off a river of underground emotions closely related to my decision to HS...ultimately, I'm looking for feedback for how other HSers handle themselves & their families & maintain their sanity when the way most of us HSers choose to live is further & further away from the "mainstream".

 

The specific situation: we recently moved to an area where the library system has installed computers in the children's dept of every library. The computers are loaded with literacy software (read: games). I have taken my kids to the library religiously since the oldest (now 6) was able to look at picture books. They - & I - have long loved these excursions, curling up on winter afternoons for an hour in a quiet library to read & explore books. However, since moving here, they immediately gravitate to the computer to play or watch the Dora the Explorer & Clifford "literacy" games. I set a rule for them to pick three books before going to the computer, but they tend to rush through it. Anyone who knows kids knows that they are drawn like a moth to light to a computer with games. Books can't compete when they are in direct competition with ongoing computer gains. I feel such sadness in my heart for what we've lost.

 

I wrote a letter to the library board & did get a call from one of the head librarians. She thanked me for my "thoughtful letter" and said I raised some good points that they would take into consideration for placement of the computers. She also said, however, that the software was selected because they are finding that it is successful in with all the children who come from low-literacy homes (both in bringing them to the library & in teaching them literacy skills). I told her I understood where they were coming from but that I will no longer bring my kids to the library since it was no longer a place where my children can discover a love of books (at least until things change).

 

The "river of emotions" I referred to is all of my frustration over trying to raise my children to be HEALTHY human beings (in every sense of that word) in this world. I just finished reading two books on teaching financial skills to children, because our society no longer offers any support for people learning to live within their means and spend wisely. I cook at home because we so rarely find food out that is healthy, tastes good, and won't encourage obesity. I homeschool because the type of in-depth and comprehensive education I want for my children is not offered in the public schools. I want my children to develop minds capable of understanding complexity of thought & depth of meaning and believe that great works of literature can contribute to this. I now find I cannot count on my local library to support me in this quest. I take my children to church so they can sing Christmas songs & sort through moral questions (among other reasons - we are Christian), since there is no where else they can do this. Everywhere I turn I find a TV or computer screen to occupy my children - the gym daycare, the dentist office, the grocery store. (As a side note, my kids get 60 - 90 minutes of screen time a day at home, so they are not exactly deprived.)

 

I wonder about the society they will grow up in. Will there be any leaders capable of depth of thought? How can there be when the entire generation has been raised on Clifford, Dora, & Scooby Doo books? Why when I try to talk to people about this do they think I am a Luddite (that's assuming they know what one is)?

 

I used to feel that I was part of America, one of the mainstream, more religious than many but perfectly capable of interacting with all others in a natural way. More and more, I feel isolated & more than a little exhausted at constantly having to battle the direction of what now seems to be the mainstream. Things that people rarely did in college when I went are now being done regularly by middle-schoolers on their lunch hours.

 

I guess I am worried about raising children who still 'fit in' & who still feel they can interact with others when the general drift of society seems to be getting farther and farther away from what is healthy . We have plenty of local support - co-ops, Boy Scouts, etc. but the bigger picture looks scary right now.

 

Sorry, I recognize that I am very emotional right now & so am "dumping" without a lot of direction. How do others handle these emotions? How do you talk with your kids & raise them so that they are intact inside but capable of being competent in a world where "anything goes"? (and a whole lot more is 'going' these days than even five years ago, sigh)

 

Any insights on this ramble will be greatly appreciated.

 

:confused:

[Snickerdoodle]

Hon, I hear you loud and clear and I sympathize. We just moved back to the USA after being abroad and all what you describe hit very suddenly and very hard. It's quite shocking.

[Ria]

I'm sorry you are feeling so emotional, but I'm not sure I really understand what has upset you. I guess I'm confused as to why you gave your kids permission to play on the library computers in the first place, given your feelings about them. We have computers at our library, too, but it never once occurred to me to allow my kids to play on them...that's not why we go to the library.

 

:confused:

 

Ria

Edited December 3, 2008 by Ria

[Tracey in TX]

DH is a techno-geek, so we discuss this often. I feel that our society is changing quicker now than ever before. In the future this period will probably be paralleled to the decades in which consumption of electricity was in the home, cars replacing horses, and tvs/phones becoming commonplace to the masses. Each time a major new lifestyle item become available to the middle/lower income families parents were concerned about the future and the demise of morality. I believe that children should be computer literate in order to have a place in modern day society. (Obviously with 60-90 minutes of daily screen time, this isn't an issue. :))

 

I understand your frustration with the computers. It's a much quicker enjoyment than beginning new book. There is a place for both in the library. It would be a shame to punish your kids by not returning to their library because computers are available. The alternative is much more expensive!

 

Let us know what you decide to do. No matter what you do, vent away!

[Tammy]

You can always just go by the library and pickup some books to take home. I never really liked hanging out in the library....mainly because there were too many 'sick' kids in there....and I didn't want them passing along their colds to my children. I used their online system....check out a bunch of books....and drove by and picked them all up to take home. I don't think you will miss much by not 'attending' the library.....from what you said.

[kalanamak]

Everywhere I turn I find a TV or computer screen to occupy my children - the gym daycare, the dentist office, the grocery store.

 

 

(We have plenty of local support - co-ops, Boy Scouts, /quote]

 

I agree and understand. I periodically plow past the big screens at Costco and chant to kiddo "Television is the closest living approximation to death known to man" (a quote from a S. Dobyns poem).

 

Have hope, though. My folks raised me in the bible belt, and I grew up completely ignorant of the fact any modern human believed in a deity. I didn't know it until I was 12 and someone told me. I thought people when to church to dress up, see their friends, and sing. So....home life is very important.

 

As to good food, I can find it, but it isn't fast-food cheap. That is the rub.

 

If you have support, be pleased. As a secular HS, I am not up for any of the local co-ops.

[PamJH]

Our problem isn't computers, it's not being able to visit the library between 2:30 and 6 p.m. That's when the nearby middle school students take the place over. Parents around here use the library as a babysitting service and the place is loud, loud, loud. The librarians try hard to contain the noise, but they don't always succeed.

 

A question: Why do you let your kids use the computers if you dislike them so much?

 

Computers and classical education aren't mutually exclusive. We can educate our children deeply and thoughtfully without eschewing technology altogether. However, if your kids are very young, I would limit their computer time to perhaps 20 minutes per day.

 

I agree that you shouldn't discount your library completely because of computers. Many people who use library computers don't have access to one otherwise. That's why I'm glad my library has a lot of them.

 

Good luck, whatever you decide to do and please keep us posted. Perhaps your library will reconfigure their computer areas based on your input.

[gardening momma]

What if, in lieu of some of the TV time at home, allow them that time on the computers at the library, and then they read more at home instead of reading at the library?

[G5052]

I'm a part-time community college professor teaching computer science and web development, so I appreciate your concerns as I have always homeschooled my children as well. I always say though that teaching college students keeps me homeschooling. A student once told me, "I failed your class because technology keeps distracting me." Are they truly that powerless? My children are being raised to view technology as a tool, not entertainment. That's the difference. And frankly I don't care if they're different. They're learning to be leaders, not followers.

[buddhabelly]

I think this is too young for "60 to 90 minutes of screen time" at home. JMHO, of course! And I agree with the other posters about picking up the books by yourself (or put them on "hold" and have another adult pick them up). My son no longer likes to read at the library since the computer games have entered the picture. :glare: It used to be such a nice place to do school on a rainy day. We still do sometimes, but the computers are noisy and it is not as pleasant.

 

Be well,

 

Julie

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I know exactly what you mean, and this kind of thinking will eat you up if you let it. I speak from experience. I spent several years looking around me, saying, "Hey! This is not the world I wanted for my kids! What is wrong with everyone!!!"

 

What has worked for me:

 

Drop the expectations. Yes, families should be sound, schools should be institutes of learning, libraries should be peaceful, quiet halls filled with excellent books, churches should be sober-minded and saintly, billboards should be nonexistent and televisions should be nowhere.

 

Not gonna happen. Not in our lifetime. We are here, now. Why? I don't know. But all the wistfulness in the world is not going to beam us to Ma Ingalls' front parlor where the children are studying diligently and sewing their seams. We're here now, and we simply must accept it.

 

Beyond acceptance, I find that service helps. Not the idea that we are going to share our wonderful, educated and dignified selves with the world in the hopes of elevating it! No, that would be very wrong LOL and feeding into the prideful and self-pitying feeling that we're trying to address.

 

Real service, where we get as dirty and tired as we can in attempts to share and give. Jesus said we'd always have the poor with us. There you go: one thing that will never change! The poor are always with us!

 

As we serve, we quit focusing on ourselves. We spend less time on our differences and impossible desires. We're solving problems. We're meeting good people who have NOTHING in common with us other than a desire to help our fellow man. That's a healthy situation. The other healthy thing is that we are constantly reminded what is REAL. Food, clothing, shelter, mothers, babies, sick and elderly folk, people needing help and hope....that stuff is real. My good manners and morals and my excellent homeschool are terrific but they are not the stuff of eternity. The things in our society that irk me are just temporal, too.

 

Above all, don't let your kids hear you despair about imaginary "good old days." They need to see all the good that there is to see, right now. This is their childhood. It isn't the childhood you hoped to give them, but they can't help that. Don't teach them to always be wishing for some time or place that is better than where they are.

 

:grouphug:

[astrid]

I want my children to develop minds capable of understanding complexity of thought & depth of meaning and believe that great works of literature can contribute to this. I now find I cannot count on my local library to support me in this quest.

:confused:

 

Maybe I"m missing something, but I don't follow this statement. Just because the library has computers with literacy software installed, they are not supportive of the development of complex thinking in children?

 

I see that as a very broad statement.

 

astrid (JMHO)

[swellmomma]

I'm sorry you are feeling so emotional, but I'm not sure I really understand what has upset you. I guess I'm confused as to why you gave your kids permission to play on the library computers in the first place, given your feelings about them. We have computers at our library, too, but it never once occurred to me to allow my kids to play on them...that's not why we go to the library.

 

:confused:

 

Ria

 

That's us too. Our computer has many many computers but I don't let the kids play on them. When they ask I just say that is not what we are here for and the subject is dropped.

[KarenNC]

What if, in lieu of some of the TV time at home, allow them that time on the computers at the library, and then they read more at home instead of reading at the library?

 

This is pretty much how we handle it. I'm definitely in the self-described Luddite camp (and have even known what it was for years:D). My cell phone doesn't do anything but send and receive phone calls (at least as far as I know), we don't have cable or antenna TV (not through a philosophical objection, just through lack of using it--we do have Netflix), and my 8 yo child, according to her, is the only person on the planet without a DS or a gaming system of some kind (including Wii, xbox, etc)---a situation that's not going to change anytime in the foreseeable future:). I despise instant messaging, online chat and wouldn't know how to text or "twitter" if my life depended on it. We take books or audiobooks in the car, not dvds. She does have Webkinz, her own computer (without internet access--our old one) and a fairly generous amount of screen time during the week.

 

We frequent two different libraries, one with kids' computers and one without. When we go to the one with the computers, sometimes we have time for her to play on them, sometimes not, and sometimes even if we have time, she doesn't get to do so. For us, it's a matter of teaching moderation rather than avoidance or all or nothing. Now there are indeed some things that are deserving of total avoidance, but most things can be taught to be enjoyed in moderation and with wiser choices, which is part of what we consider to be a healthy response.

 

As to being raised on Scooby Doo and Dora, well, I have to admit that I spent a *lot* of time in my childhood with Speed Racer, Ultraman, Shazam, Batman, bad Japanese monster movies and books that many would consider total "twaddle"---if you ask my husband I still do :D, but it's fun twaddle. There's no telling how many hours a week I spent in front of the television as a child. I still managed to graduate college, have a reasonably successful career for a number of years, be capable of (at least what I believe to be) reasoned complex discussions on many topics, pretty well read, etc.;)

 

I do monitor most of the things that she reads or watches or gets (no Bratz or Spongebob, for instance) but I am loosening up on some things because I remember what it was like to be totally out of touch with what the other kids were experiencing. A lot has had to do with her growing maturity over the last year or so (she's 8.5) and seeing that she has been able to handle gradually increasing amounts of freedom of choice without becoming obsessive. She's getting a refurbed ipod for Yule, for instance, because she's shown she can handle the small hand-me-down mp3 player she's had this past year.

 

The electronics and 24/7 media bombardment is unlikely to go away, any more than the technological changes that occurred in my childhood and young adulthood did (am I the only one old enough to remember when PCs were considered a fad? or when we went to the library to look up info in the encyclopedia rather than on the internet?). I see my job as helping guide my daughter in making good choices about the ways in which she interacts with these things, which is admittedly going to be a challenge given my attitude toward them ;). Luckily my husband is more tech-aware and we have friends who can help us along the way.

[Jean in Newcastle]

In our own home I have arranged our schedule, our priorities and our entertainments to fit our values - educational, moral and spiritual. We're not totally consistent, BTW, though we do try to be. When we go out, I will either talk about what we will participate in and what we won't, and I will follow that up with a lot of distraction for the kids so they don't feel deprived all the time. As far as books and the library go: we have a love a book evidenced by the 10 full bookshelves of books in our house. When we go to the library I do allow them to do the games sometimes. Other times, before we even go to the library, I will declare our library visit a "computer free" time. The kids have no problems with that if they know what to expect before we get there.

[Catherine]

I struggle with some of the same frustrations, and seek solace in the places you describe. But the most important part for me is the reminder that I am just like everyone else.

[LBC]

I know exactly what you mean, and this kind of thinking will eat you up if you let it. I speak from experience. I spent several years looking around me, saying, "Hey! This is not the world I wanted for my kids! What is wrong with everyone!!!"

 

What has worked for me:

 

Drop the expectations. Yes, families should be sound, schools should be institutes of learning, libraries should be peaceful, quiet halls filled with excellent books, churches should be sober-minded and saintly, billboards should be nonexistent and televisions should be nowhere.

 

Not gonna happen. Not in our lifetime. We are here, now. Why? I don't know. But all the wistfulness in the world is not going to beam us to Ma Ingalls' front parlor where the children are studying diligently and sewing their seams. We're here now, and we simply must accept it.

 

Beyond acceptance, I find that service helps. Not the idea that we are going to share our wonderful, educated and dignified selves with the world in the hopes of elevating it! No, that would be very wrong LOL and feeding into the prideful and self-pitying feeling that we're trying to address.

 

Real service, where we get as dirty and tired as we can in attempts to share and give. Jesus said we'd always have the poor with us. There you go: one thing that will never change! The poor are always with us!

 

As we serve, we quit focusing on ourselves. We spend less time on our differences and impossible desires. We're solving problems. We're meeting good people who have NOTHING in common with us other than a desire to help our fellow man. That's a healthy situation. The other healthy thing is that we are constantly reminded what is REAL. Food, clothing, shelter, mothers, babies, sick and elderly folk, people needing help and hope....that stuff is real. My good manners and morals and my excellent homeschool are terrific but they are not the stuff of eternity. The things in our society that irk me are just temporal, too.

 

Above all, don't let your kids hear you despair about imaginary "good old days." They need to see all the good that there is to see, right now. This is their childhood. It isn't the childhood you hoped to give them, but they can't help that. Don't teach them to always be wishing for some time or place that is better than where they are.

 

:grouphug:

:iagree:

I remember believing that I could somehow control the environment that my dc were exposed to when they were young. As they got older I was able to let go of some of those expectations. As Christians, this world is not our home. It's never going to feel quite like home. There will always be things we wish were different. We're encouraged to set our minds on things above, not on the things that are on earth (Col. 3:1). Hang in there. You're a good mom, who just wants the best for her children. You will give them so much by homeschooling, and by God's grace, you will learn how to be okay with the things that are beyond your control.

 

Lori

[Erica in PA]

I'm sorry you are feeling so emotional, but I'm not sure I really understand what has upset you. I guess I'm confused as to why you gave your kids permission to play on the library computers in the first place, given your feelings about them. We have computers at our library, too, but it never once occurred to me to allow my kids to play on them...that's not why we go to the library.

 

:confused:

 

Ria

 

 

That's what I was thinking too. I have never allowed my kids to play on the library's computers, and it hasn't been a problem.

[1bassoon]

I know exactly what you mean, and this kind of thinking will eat you up if you let it. I speak from experience. I spent several years looking around me, saying, "Hey! This is not the world I wanted for my kids! What is wrong with everyone!!!"

 

What has worked for me:

 

Drop the expectations. Yes, families should be sound, schools should be institutes of learning, libraries should be peaceful, quiet halls filled with excellent books, churches should be sober-minded and saintly, billboards should be nonexistent and televisions should be nowhere.

 

Not gonna happen. Not in our lifetime. We are here, now. Why? I don't know. But all the wistfulness in the world is not going to beam us to Ma Ingalls' front parlor where the children are studying diligently and sewing their seams. We're here now, and we simply must accept it.

 

Beyond acceptance, I find that service helps. Not the idea that we are going to share our wonderful, educated and dignified selves with the world in the hopes of elevating it! No, that would be very wrong LOL and feeding into the prideful and self-pitying feeling that we're trying to address.

 

Real service, where we get as dirty and tired as we can in attempts to share and give. Jesus said we'd always have the poor with us. There you go: one thing that will never change! The poor are always with us!

 

As we serve, we quit focusing on ourselves. We spend less time on our differences and impossible desires. We're solving problems. We're meeting good people who have NOTHING in common with us other than a desire to help our fellow man. That's a healthy situation. The other healthy thing is that we are constantly reminded what is REAL. Food, clothing, shelter, mothers, babies, sick and elderly folk, people needing help and hope....that stuff is real. My good manners and morals and my excellent homeschool are terrific but they are not the stuff of eternity. The things in our society that irk me are just temporal, too.

 

Above all, don't let your kids hear you despair about imaginary "good old days." They need to see all the good that there is to see, right now. This is their childhood. It isn't the childhood you hoped to give them, but they can't help that. Don't teach them to always be wishing for some time or place that is better than where they are.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

This is perfect. I'm saving it to reread when I need inspiration.

 

Thanks, Amy!

[Happy2BaMom]

Hi all -

 

I really appreciate all of the input & have mostly pulled myself out of the pity puddle into which I had so willingly thrown myself.

 

Just to address the multiple questions of why I let my kids play on the computers...if you saw the set-up, you would understand better I think. There are three computers that are set up at children's eye level with childs' chairs around them. The games are constantly "up" - e.g. there is no log-in or password, not to mention that there are always at least three children around them playing the games. Yes, my 6-year-old is old enough to "follow the rules" (but right there I've lost a good part of the fun of going to the library - it is just now one more place where mom gets to set & enforce rules), but I catch him sneaking glances all the time since the computer is in plain sight no matter where we are in the children's section.

 

As for my just-turned-3-year-old, she doesn't get the "rules" and constantly fights to get to the computer. It eventually turns into a screaming tantrum from which I have to carry her out from the library kicking and wailing. Perhaps other people have marvelously behaved young 3-year-olds but mine isn't one of them.

 

So it isn't just as simple (at least at the ages they are at) to "just say no".

[cathmom]

I hope they rearrange the computers. That setup does sound bad. The children's computers at my library are off against the far wall and not immediately visible.

 

I just wanted to reassure you that children can love computer games/TV/cartoons and also still love reading books.

 

You could also go the forbidden fruit route! I have a collection of German children's book that I read to my twins. They were expensive and I didn't want to have to go searching for them when I wanted to read them, so I put them up on a high shelf and only I can get them down. So now the twins act like I'm getting down candy or something when I get the books out. They run around going "Buch! Buch!" And if I tried to not read to them before nap, they would run over and point to the books.

[Nestof3]

I really do understand what you're saying, and I empathize with you in many ways.

 

Just so you know, I've never let my kids use the library computers b/c that's not why we're there. They're also covered with more germs than the books! (LOL)

 

Seriously, just say no to the computers there. My boys use computers at home, and I'm, fine with that. It's actually a good skill to have, and I can limit their time on them. Sometimes my 9 year old just likes to type stories or copy pages from a favorite chapter book. He also really likes Roller Coaster and Zoo Tycoon which are quite educational, IMO. Ben prefers silly arcade games, but he is still actually learning about search engines and such.

 

They still love the library for the books, audio books and videos. We have a great time when we go, but we never hang out and read there b/c it's just not like home.

 

As for the rest of your post, yes, we do avoid certain things that seem totally useless. A little mindless fun is tolerable here, but most of one's day is to be spent on profitable things. My boys still gravtitate to creative outlets.

[Happy2BaMom]

I appreciate the attempts to help me solve my issue with the library, but the over-arching issue is larger than that...it really boils down to how other hsers are handling (or not) the changes in our society that seem to be pulling further and further from many of our lifestyles and, more importantly, how you handle them with your kids.

 

For example, my 12-year-old niece, who is also homeschooled, just received a very thorough description of how to perform oral sex on a boy, a description she innocently provoked by asking a more street-savvy same-age friend what she should do if he invited her over. My pediatrician told me at my daughter's 3-yr-old check-up that he now recommends giving the HPV vaccine to EVERY girl...at nine years of age. In a poll of high schoolers in our region two years ago, the vast majority of them could neither tell what the Holocaust was nor name the CENTURY it occurred in. I volunteered at a health fair for children a year ago and could not believe the blood pressures, weights & health issues these kids were showing up with.

 

Yes, I know this is not the ideal world I would like, but it sure is a **** of a long way from the world I grew up in just 40 short (seemingly) years ago & some days I do not feel equipped to be able to reason my children through it successfully. It is not a matter of wanting the good old days as it is wanting to know how other people coach their own children through reconciling what healthy choices are & how to consistently make those choices when so much around them points to "why bother"? Even my 12-year-old niece said to her mother "well, everyone at the school is doing it & they all seem just fine".

 

I'm assuming most people deal with it directly through discussions with their children, but since my oldest is six, I'm just starting to grapple with how to do that & right now I'm feeling just a little bit emotional (obviously) over how to have the best chance of doing it successfully when so few other people seem to even think it is a problem.

 

Thank you all for listening. I promise this will be the last rant!

[cathmom]

I see what you are saying now. Honestly, I do not get why sex is so glamourized by the world at large with all the problems/diseases that can come from it. You don't even have to go into whether or not it's sinful outside of marriage! A couple of issues ago in the Reader's Digest there was an article about a man who had throat cancer, which they have found comes from a virus that is spread through oral sex.

 

I agree that the world has changed quite a bit from the time when I was a child, and I am only 37. I guess the way I handle it is by homeschooling and helping them to develop their interests so they have a focus for their adult lives. It's much easier to avoid crap when you are in college or out in the world as an adult.

[Kris]

I appreciate the attempts to help me solve my issue with the library, but the over-arching issue is larger than that...

 

I just wanted to throw in here that our library has time limits on computer use, recently reduced to thirty minutes. That helped. :D

 

t really boils down to how other hsers are handling (or not) the changes in our society that seem to be pulling further and further from many of our lifestyles and, more importantly, how you handle them with your kids.

 

Well, I don't think it's just homeschoolers who are struggling with these issues and I'd also venture to say that your parents probably had the same lament 40 years ago -- I know mine did. It's not that there were no problems to deal with when we were growing up, they were just different.

 

Were there no "bad kids" behind the gym smoking? Doing drugs? No teenagers getting pregnant? No runaways? Juvenile Hall was empty? No bullies? My parents didn't like what I listened to on the radio -- and I didn't like what they were listening to. And the noise that's coming out of The Kid's room? What *IS* that?!

 

I think parents are dealing with it today just like they've dealt with it since civilization began -- by trying to teach their kids what their core values are and hoping that it "sticks."

[newbie]

I'm a part-time community college professor teaching computer science and web development, so I appreciate your concerns as I have always homeschooled my children as well. I always say though that teaching college students keeps me homeschooling. A student once told me, "I failed your class because technology keeps distracting me." Are they truly that powerless? My children are being raised to view technology as a tool, not entertainment. That's the difference. And frankly I don't care if they're different. They're learning to be leaders, not followers.

Very well put, these are tools that we all need to learn. I wouldnt let them use the library computers, they can use the ones at home. An hr. is more than enough time per day.

 

Unfortunately these kids have to be raised w/computers. If not at home they will be hit head on in college. It is amazing the amount of work they will expect and the skills they will have to know.

 

PS have a large access to computers and they are starting them earlier and earlier.

 

This is what they have to live w/so I think the key is to guide them on the path how to use the tool and not abuse it, just like anything.

[WTMCassandra]

I feel your pain. Really.

 

We try to make our home a haven that fits with our values, and we take measures to protect our children when we deem it necessary.

 

I could type a long post, but I'm exhausted at the moment. If you want to PM me, I would be glad to give you more specifics.

[JennifersLost]

I see now what you're saying about the computer set-up; that really sounds annoying. The computers at our library are off in a separate space -the three kids' book rooms just have tables and chairs and age-appropriate toys for the little ones.

 

I guess I would suggest that you go for a quick trip to the library, pull out twenty to thirty books really fast and take them home again!

 

As for the rest of it; we're completely secular and I struggle with the same issues, but I agree with one of the other posters - there was a lot of crud going on when I was a kid, too. By seventh grade I had close friends smoking pot. I knew kids that went to jail. I knew kids that did coke. I knew kids that had sex. It was tragic then and it's tragic now.

 

All you can do is focus on your kids. Love them, watch over them, give them chances to be self-confident, talk to them about your values. Let them know about the world without being sucked under by the world. The world has always been messy and crude; that's why beauty and grace has such a hold on us when it appears.

 

You're not alone, and for all the kids who aren't being "raised right", there are plenty who are. Every generation thinks the world is about to end. But somehow it doesn't....

[hose]

I know exactly what you mean, and this kind of thinking will eat you up if you let it. I speak from experience. I spent several years looking around me, saying, "Hey! This is not the world I wanted for my kids! What is wrong with everyone!!!"

 

What has worked for me:

 

Drop the expectations. Yes, families should be sound, schools should be institutes of learning, libraries should be peaceful, quiet halls filled with excellent books, churches should be sober-minded and saintly, billboards should be nonexistent and televisions should be nowhere.

 

Not gonna happen. Not in our lifetime. We are here, now. Why? I don't know. But all the wistfulness in the world is not going to beam us to Ma Ingalls' front parlor where the children are studying diligently and sewing their seams. We're here now, and we simply must accept it.

 

Beyond acceptance, I find that service helps. Not the idea that we are going to share our wonderful, educated and dignified selves with the world in the hopes of elevating it! No, that would be very wrong LOL and feeding into the prideful and self-pitying feeling that we're trying to address.

 

Real service, where we get as dirty and tired as we can in attempts to share and give. Jesus said we'd always have the poor with us. There you go: one thing that will never change! The poor are always with us!

 

As we serve, we quit focusing on ourselves. We spend less time on our differences and impossible desires. We're solving problems. We're meeting good people who have NOTHING in common with us other than a desire to help our fellow man. That's a healthy situation. The other healthy thing is that we are constantly reminded what is REAL. Food, clothing, shelter, mothers, babies, sick and elderly folk, people needing help and hope....that stuff is real. My good manners and morals and my excellent homeschool are terrific but they are not the stuff of eternity. The things in our society that irk me are just temporal, too.

 

Above all, don't let your kids hear you despair about imaginary "good old days." They need to see all the good that there is to see, right now. This is their childhood. It isn't the childhood you hoped to give them, but they can't help that. Don't teach them to always be wishing for some time or place that is better than where they are.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

[katilac]

I appreciate the attempts to help me solve my issue with the library, but the over-arching issue is larger than that...it really boils down to how other hsers are handling (or not) the changes in our society that seem to be pulling further and further from many of our lifestyles and, more importantly, how you handle them with your kids.

 

. . . For example, my 12-year-old niece, who is also homeschooled, just received a very thorough description of how to perform oral sex on a boy . . .

 

 

. . . Yes, I know this is not the ideal world I would like, but it sure is a **** of a long way from the world I grew up in just 40 short (seemingly) years ago . . .

 

Thank you all for listening. I promise this will be the last rant!

 

See, I don't think all these things are that far from what we grew up with thirty or forty years ago. A 12-yr-old talking about oral sex (much less performing it!) sounds horrifying to me, as an adult.

 

But if I stroll down memory lane, there was PLENTY of sex talk at that age. Did the students at your school not breathlessly tell the story of how Rod Stewart, or George Michael, or whomever, was gay, FOR SURE, because he was rushed to the emergency room after he swallowed a quart of - - well, they certainly didn't use any of the proper terms, but you get the idea. Fast Times at Ridgemont High, which taught untold thousands of girls how to perform oral sex on a carrot, was a hit over 25 years ago.

 

So, not a COMPLETELY new problem, lol. As far as how we handle it, hs'ing is one huge benefit. Our kids are simply exposed to much less of it, which simplifies life. When they do see things of this nature, or rampant consumerism that we do not agree with, we simply explain that everyone makes choices in life. In our family, we do things THIS way. When you grow up and pay rent, you can do things YOUR way.

 

As far as the library specifically, I would attack the problem in more than one way. There's nothing wrong with trying to minimize temptation - - go to the library during off hours (ours is a ghost town in the morning!) so they don't see other kids playing, ask the staff if it's possible to keep the games minimized until someone is using the computer. They're not likely to rearrange the room; it's a pain with computers.

 

Other than that, I think 3 is plenty old enough to understand "we're going to the library today but we won't be playing on the computers." That will keep them from rushing through selecting their books just to play games.

 

Because you don't have a problem with occasional computer use, maybe plan the occasional trip to the library where you allow playing games. Make it clear that whining or misbehaving on one library trip (for books) means you miss the next library trip (for games).

 

We do skip things where we can't control the environment as much - - for example, we don't go to restaurants that boast of their big screen tvs, because a 70" screen with blaring sound IS rather hard to ignore, lol. But I do expect my kids to be able to ignore a screen the size of a computer monitor, whether it be a computer at the library or a dvd player that another kid has at the dentist.

 

We make it a point to always, always make our feelings known. If the music in a store or restaurant is at a pleasant level and there's no tv, we thank them profusely and tell them we'll be back. And if the opposite, we politely let them know that's why we aren't staying or returning.

 

And it doesn't have to be your last rant on the subject; we love us some good give and take!

[katilac]

Our problem isn't computers, it's not being able to visit the library between 2:30 and 6 p.m. That's when the nearby middle school students take the place over.

 

 

Oh, yeah, I think that's par for the course. Around here, the library is quite crowded from 3 PM to closing time. The majority of the kids there do seem to be doing school work of some type, albeit rather noisily, so I can't really complain. After all, that's the only time they CAN go.

 

We always go well before school lets out. Even if you're adamant about not breaking up your morning school time, you can get in a solid couple of hours before the masses invade. And when we go in the morning, there are very few people there.

[Kris]

Our problem isn't computers, it's not being able to visit the library between 2:30 and 6 p.m. That's when the nearby middle school students take the place over. Parents around here use the library as a babysitting service and the place is loud, loud, loud. The librarians try hard to contain the noise, but they don't always succeed.

 

Now that they're finishing up the remodeling, our library is getting crowded with the PS students after 3:00 p.m., too. Unfortunately, prior to 3:00 p.m., it's the homeschoolers who have taken over the reference room. Yes, they're working -- but while they're doing that, their smaller kids are running all over the place playing and are plenty loud about it. The moms seem to be able to tune it out -- I am not so blessed -- or they're too busy arguing with the "working" ones. I seriously considered, just last week, giving one particularly "frazzled" Mom a wink while pointing to my 6'6" kid and telling her, "No, it doesn't get any better." But I had this inkling she wasn't in the mood for any humor at that point. :D

 

They haven't finished the remodeling of the children's library yet, so I'm thinking (hoping) they'll move back down there when that's finished. Until then, it's pretty difficult to finish a coherent thought, and the librarians are either oblivious or just ignoring it, too.

[happyWImom]

I totally get what you are saying. To me, the more we are around other homeschoolers (not that we are perfect, by any means:tongue_smilie:) and involved in hs groups, etc... we really notice the difference in behavior, especially. The thing is, my kids are also noticing it, which is a great teaching lesson. They don't say "oh, they aren't homeschooled, look at the way they're acting" they don't differentiate-they just notice bad behavior-which I think is great. We don't insulate ourselves, and the kids do go to soccer and dance class, and they aren't with hs kids, and we do a lot of other things, but I guess just the fact that they are primarily with our family-and we are the greatest influence-makes a difference. So even though they are exposed to all of the stuff I wish wasn't out there, it's ok because we are there to say "look at that-that's not ok, is it?".

 

Rambling again, but you see where I'm going with it.:D I also agree so much with the posts talking about service; I think it is so important to stress. "It's not all about me".

 

Okay, the cold medication is getting to me again, but I hope I got my point across.:001_smile:

[StaceyinLA]

At least as far as influences. I can tell you that in our Christian Home School group, my kids have met 17 and 18yo drug-abusers (that served jail time for stealing to buy drugs), alcohol-abusers, a kid who went to jail for statutory rape, sexually active teens and more. Home schooling alone will NOT protect your children. Come on - didn't someone just mention on here about the pastor's kids being some of the worst kids? Christian home schooled kids that are in large groups can get into just as much mischief as any other kids. I know many a teen who has had sex at a church youth camp. We need to stop kidding ourselves into believing that home schooling in and of itself is going to save them from the world.

 

The only way we can truly protect our kids from all influence is to keep them from it. I don't personally choose to do this because I don't think it's preparing them for the world in which they have to live. I do, however, know families that shelter their children and they have WONDERFUL children. They basically live like the Duggars (only they are probably more sheltered because they wouldn't want the exposure to some of the worldly things that the Duggars have had since they've been on tv).

 

If you choose not to live like the Duggars, you have to come to terms with the fact that your kids will, at some point, be exposed to things that will make your stomach churn. However, if you have instilled your values from the start, always had honest communication and discussion with your children, and not tried to pretend that this world didn't exist, but prepared them for the challenges, they WILL BE OKAY!!! They'll make mistakes, just like we did, and they will LEARN from them.

 

It's tough to be a parent. I would love to go back and have my infant, 2yo, 4yo and 6yo and stay that way forever. Parenting teens is harder than I ever imagined. I just can't protect them like I once could. I know they are making mistakes and it is hard to see, but I've instilled all I can and now God is who they have to answer to. Their convictions are not going to be mine - they have to come from the Lord in their own lives and sometimes, in their own time.

 

All we can do is our best...

[Laura K (NC)]

When my kids were younger we'd hang out in the kids' section, and the flashy kids games are on the computers front and center, so no matter what row of bookshelves you happen to be on, the computers call you with their bright lights and happy screens. It's like taking a 15yo boy through Victoria's Secret and telling him to try to keep his eyes down, LOL.

 

So now my oldest is 15 (again, LOL). They've got a teen room now at this same library. It's full of sports mags, gay mags, heavy romance novels that would make me blush, witchcraft technique books, and cheat books for gamers. They hide the occasional edifying material in amongst the trash so you can't avoid going in there. I'd love to be able to let my sons browse, but I'd no sooner let them browse there than I would -- well, Victoria's Secret. There's just no point to it.

 

So I have a library card to the local university and we browse there. Funny, I feel safer for my kids in an adult library than in a kid's library. There are no incentives there to come (except a Starbucks!), no bright colors, no cleavage, no video games. It's just the books because people actually like the books. This isn't going to be an option for parents of younger kids. When my kids were younger, though, the kids' library had a horrible selection of books (too much money spent on computer games, maybe? :mad:). I bit the bullet and just bought shelf after shelf of books, most of them used, but some new, so there would always be something new and exciting to read at home. And I made fresh books an everyday treat during the year, and never bought toys except at Christmas and birthdays. We still have to go to the public library sometimes, but we get what we need and leave.

 

It's tough. And you're not alone. Keep fighting the good fight.

[The Governess]

:grouphug: I feel like you do sometimes. It seems like we have to try hard, and sometimes fight hard, to raise our kids in a way that doesn't encourage laziness, extreme consumerism, poor health, a self-centered worldview - the list goes on and on. The world does seem to be a scarier place now than it was when I was a kid - in several ways.

 

BUT.....at least where I live, there seems to be a revival of the "old-fashioned" way of doing things. I would say well over half (and probably closer to 75%) of the people we know with small children try to avoid TV and the related mass marketing/character merchandise. They are reading books with their kids, buying them natural, creative toys, making them home made baby food, frequenting restaurants that offer healthier food for the kids, taking nature walks, planting gardens, and plan on teaching their kids to sew and knit. There is a strong desire for the kids to be active participants in serving their community and the world. These parents see what kind of people a consumer-centered society creates and they are making deliberate choices to reverse it in their own families. Seeing this happening over and over again has given me a LOT of hope.

 

As for the library issue, is there a book store (used or new) in your community that you could use as an alternative to the library until your 3yo is old enough to understand that the computers are off limits? Book stores in our area offer storytime and there is not a computer screen in sight. I have experienced similar experiences with the library computers with my dd4. It took about a year of telling her we do NOT use the computers at the library, EVER for her to stop asking me about them as soon as we walked in. Now I'm waiting for dd2 to start. :D

[Peela]

I haven't read all the other posts, so this may be redundant, but I found when my kids were little, I went through a stage of grieving as "the world" impinged on my little universe with them where they didn't eat sugar, watched only what I wanted on TV, and I was basically the centre of their universe.

It changes. The world's influence gets stronger- gosh, I remember how depressed I was over the first b'day parties they attended with all that junk food! and mum is no longer the fount of all knowledge- tv and computers are too, and advertising, and what that other kid said.

But it is just the way it is, and trying to control it tooooo much, keeping them in a bubble, is as unhealthy as not limiting and setting healthy boundaries to protect them. There is a balance.

Yes, in an ideal world it would be different...but we can still live OUR truth, our reality, and share that with our kids, but we have to let them go to make their own interface with the world they are growing up in. We can't control it all, can't make the world different.

And probably you are better off looking for the beauty, the love and the wonderfulness that IS out there, every day, than focusing on the negative.

[Soph the vet]

I get what you are asking, OP. I have also considered that my dc will be different in many ways than most of their peers. But we are Christians and we are not supposed to "fit in". The Bible says to be in the world but not of the world. I want my dc to have a solid foundation on truth so they will hopefully reject all the lies out there that come at them. I don't shield them from anything really. Anything that comes up we discuss openly even at their young ages. My hope is that as adults they will not feel the need to fit in or compromise their faith but instead would inspire others to seek truth and live righteously.

 

As for the computer issue, it should be a non-issue. If you don't want them on it, don't let them on it. My dc gravitate toward the screen at the library and I just tell them, nope, that's not why we come to the library.

[angela in ohio]

The leaders you ask about are the children you and I are raising. We have to keep up what we are doing, trusting that God is raising up these children for a purpose. When it all starts to unravel, someone will be needed to lead the way out. Andrew Pudewa has a great talk on this - it has "Leaders" in the title, I think, and I don't know if you can get it from IEW. It would be refreshing for you.

 

I also agree that it's not a homeschool thing. My parents also raised us differently from those around us, although at that time there were fewer competing interests. We were raised with discipline and a respect for education at the start of the trend toward child-centered homes and a fascintion with entertainment.

 

Anyway, my children handle their differences very well, if I can be perfectly honest. A few things that help: (1.) we talk sonstantly about it, (2.) we have created a family "culture" that is enticing to them by spending lots of time with them and finding fun things that are educational and uplifting, (3.) we have authority over them, so even in moments when they don't understand yet, they still know we will do what it best for them, (4.) we think our decisions out and then stick with them, we aren't pulled this way and that by other families or trends in the homeschool community, so our dc learn to make their own decisions.