Pen Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, MercyA said: Yes, the children would go to another class or sit with their parents during Sunday School time, I suppose. Short of the leadership promising to take care of sending them to parents or another class, I certainly would not assume that to be the result. They could stay in your SS room forcing you to choose between walking out at that point or ? physically pushing them out ? — either way you could then be accused of harming them by leaving them alone or by wrongfully touching them and excluding them. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjffkj Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 I commend you for trying to hold up to your commitment. My question is, are you willing to walk out of Sunday School on day one when people are not complying with your mask policy? Because if you aren't willing to do that then the only safe option for you is to step down now. If you are willing to do that you need to make that 100% clear that you will leave if that happens, assuming you hear back from your most recent email. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, MercyA said: I will. Still waiting. I've asked or tried to ask at least three times, "Am I going to be allowed to require masks?" and I can't get a straight yes or no. I think you already got a straight answer. They believe that wearing masks is optional. In your personal freedom you can require them. And in other people’s personal freedom they can comply or not. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) For those of us who have lived through spiritual abuse, there are common markers. That's why everyone is saying the exact same thing: *You have got your answer. Wishy-washy non-answers are answers, when they come from people who don't want to take the responsibility to spell something out. *There will be no formal statement of support. *There will be no backup when people don't like it. *When conflict arises, you will be treated as the source of it, and heavy religious terminology will be thrown in your direction -- as a manipulation tactic to make you question your own motives and stand down out of confusion and hurt. *All of this, mostly because the Pastor does not want to make overt statements or displease anyone -- that is, anyone but you, if necessary. If there's a fork in the road where he has to choose between angry congregants and the one with the different stance, he is practically screaming at you to PLEASE read the flashing neon signs: In that moment, it won't be you that he defends. You will be under the bus SO fast. You wouldn't see this unanimity in responses if we hadn't all been through something like it, although none of us have been through it in a life or death pandemic (because we haven't HAD one in 100 years). But only the issues and the names have changed. We know. Please also note from this likeminded response that we also believe your child would not be in the best hands, in this religious environment, if sent to church on her own. We've BTDT with that, too. Edited July 30, 2020 by Lang Syne Boardie 12 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 This certainly does sound like spiritual abuse to these ears @MercyA I expect this church--one you've obviously invested in deeply--is going to turn on you. And it will not be pretty. Stay strong. There are people who deserve you in their lives more than these folks. Bill 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, MercyA said: Okay. I have replied and said that if I am allowed to require masks, I will honor my commitment to teach. I know that is not what you all are encouraging me to do, and I don't disagree with what you are saying. I just believe it is the right thing to do at this time. I don't trust the leadership anymore, that's for sure. It's been an hour and I haven't heard anything back. 🤷♀️ Why would you attend a church where you do not trust the judgement, wisdom, discernment, or character of the pastor? Why would you put your daughter under the leadership of someone you do not trust? What do the scriptures say about putting yourself under leadership of such a person? Edited July 30, 2020 by Ktgrok 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) Quote *When conflict arises, you will be treated as the source of it, Quote PLEASE read the flashing neon signs: In that moment, it won't be you that he defends. You will be under the bus SO fast. Quote Please also note from this likeminded response that we also believe your child would not be in the best hands, in this religious environment, Quoting to emphasize all of these. things could even happen like if a vulnerable member of the church gets very sick, it being blamed on you— for example as a reason because your lack of faith in God to do the protection and turning instead to a belief in worldly masks caused god to foresake the group. Edited July 30, 2020 by Pen 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 Mercy, as someone who has BTDT with church gaslighting, please think about what your hill to die on will be. Think now, in advance, and before more manipulation is applied, about what sort of thing, if any, could make you walk away. Then, write it down, tell your DH or a close friend who will support you, and promise yourself that you will listen to yourself if it comes to it. If things continue to go against your position, I can imagine that there will be a lot of pressure to push that line out a little more and let things go, to forgive...to submit... I was lucky because it wasn’t the church I grew up in and we had few deep relationships. I know it must be unbelievably hard to deal with this kind of thing in a place that’s been home for a long time and includes real family. FWIW, my DH would have stayed in our situation. Maybe men don’t get the same level of disrespect and pandering so often in certain types of churches and so are more willing to see isolated events when we see danger and a pattern? Or maybe my DH is atypical...but I have much firmer boundaries than him in general. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) . Edited July 30, 2020 by MercyA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 25 minutes ago, MercyA said: I know this kind of thing can and does happen, but the reluctance to wear masks is more of a political thing than a faith thing in my church, I think. 🙂 try to hear the general idea that you may find yourself blamed for anything, no matter how unreasonable 🙂 or not.... but lots of us have had btdt experience... idk ... maybe each has to go through it for herself 🤷♀️ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) . Edited August 2, 2020 by MercyA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pen said: 🙂 try to hear the general idea that you may find yourself blamed for anything, no matter how unreasonable 🙂 Oh, I know I'm going to be the bad guy. I have to just not care what people think of me, and do the right thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 Praying for you. You must truly love teaching these kids to endure so much to do so. Just remember, if things go south on Sunday, ask yourself "is this worth fighting for?" If the answer is no, give yourself permission to put up boundaries to the treatment you are receiving and leave. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehon Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) Having read the whole thread I have to say that this situation strongly reminds me of the modern parable about the man on the roof in a flood. Three times he refuses the clear offers of help. When he reaches heaven and asks why God didn’t help, He says that help was sent - three times - and the man didn’t avail himself of it. Mercy, you prayed for clarity and you’ve received it. I don’t think God’s answers get any clearer. Please don’t be the man on the roof. You and your family deserve so much more than this church and the spiritually bereft, nay abusive, leadership. Your church’s leadership will allow you to require masks in your classroom. Your church’s leadership simply won’t back you when you refuse to allow unmasked children in your classroom. Don’t be the man on the roof... Edited July 30, 2020 by brehon Order words something means 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 18 minutes ago, MercyA said: Oh, I know I'm going to be the bad guy. I have to just not care what people think of me, and do the right thing. What do you think is “the right thing”? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 9 minutes ago, Pen said: What do you think is “the right thing”? Honoring my commitment to teach and doing everything possible, in my classroom, to prevent the spread of COVID-19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 I am so sorry this has happened. I am deeply, deeply concerned about the content of that email and the likelihood that it will cause all kinds of misplaced anger to be turned in your direction. Just as it's important to honor your commitment to the church, which you did, so too is it important to honor your commitment to yourself and your family. I hope you take some time over the next few days to decide where your line in the sand is WRT that commitment too, just in case things get ugly. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, MercyA said: Honoring my commitment to teach and doing everything possible, in my classroom, to prevent the spread of COVID-19. If schools are going virtual in your area, due to rising cases, is it the right thing to facilitate sunday school, at all? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 If your pastor and church are putting politics above scripture, is that a healthy place for you and your family? 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 Oh honey. I am so sorry. 47 minutes ago, brehon said: ...Mercy, you prayed for clarity and you’ve received it. .. Your church’s leadership will allow you to require masks in your classroom. Your church’s leadership simply won’t back you when you refuse to allow unmasked children in your classroom. This. That is the space you're in. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 29 minutes ago, MercyA said: Honoring my commitment to teach and doing everything possible, in my classroom, to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It sounds very honorable. Bless you. But the two parts seem opposed. In person Sunday School isn’t “everything possible “ to prevent spread of infection in a pandemic. In 2020, that would look more like Zoom or similar. No in person group gathering Is “doing everything possible” to prevent spread. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 Gently, your first commitment is to your family. Your first God-given ministry is your family. Are you doing right by them in this situation? What are the consequences to your family of this decision? And are you putting this Sunday School commitment above your obligation to your family? Food for thought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 An Indiana website: “The spread of COVID-19 in Indiana is shifting to community transmission, as expected. The best ways to protect yourself are to wash your hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, avoid touching your face with unwashed hands, avoid close contact with people who are sick, stay home when you're sick, cover your cough or sneeze and clean and disinfect frequently touched objects and surfaces.” not just stay home if you have proven cv19, but “Stay Home when you’re sick” (my cellphone randomly adds caps etc.) . Your church congregation isn’t following that. Masks don’t make up for that. Your presence as a teacher, masks or not, contributes to the functioning of an entity that is acting against public health . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 31, 2020 Author Share Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) My husband and I have had our eyes opened very wide, trust me. I hear you all and I don't disagree. [.] Edited August 2, 2020 by MercyA 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 MercyA, do you feel like if you stepped down from this Sunday School position that your daughter would not be welcomed there? Or are you responding to the comments encouraging you to leave? If the latter, I understand. My dh and I have had discussions about our issues with the church and ultimately one reason we stay is because of our teenagers. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, MercyA said: My husband and I have had our eyes opened very wide, trust me. I hear you all and I don't disagree. However. We have an only child. She is homeschooled. The majority of her friends are at this church and she loves it. I prayed from the time she was a little baby for her to have good friends, and she does. They are sweet and kind and fun. She's been friends with one of them for about eight years now. Maintaining those friendships is very important to all of us. Yes. That’s a hard situation. Would they still be her friends outside of church? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Can she continue to attend, without you being involved in teaching, attending, etc? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said: Can she continue to attend, without you being involved in teaching, attending, etc? While I'm sure nobody would say that Mercy's daughter would not be welcomed if Mercy was not attending, I can also understand that that might be very sticky socially in a church like that. I hate the situation that Mercy is in, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same. Church politics can be sooooo toxic. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted July 31, 2020 Author Share Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) . Edited October 20, 2020 by MercyA 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Friendship is significant. Especially for only children. I hope all the warnings will at least help you to not get blindsided by anything that may happen! Let us know how Sunday goes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 19 hours ago, Paige said: FWIW, my DH would have stayed in our situation. Maybe men don’t get the same level of disrespect and pandering so often in certain types of churches and so are more willing to see isolated events when we see danger and a pattern? Or maybe my DH is atypical...but I have much firmer boundaries than him in general. My DH didn't see our situation for what it was until we were gone. I think distance = clarity. He was also in a ministry that wasn't likely to generate much controversy--choir. You show up and sing. We also continued to receive communications for a bit as we didn't make any big announcements that we were leaving or even talk to leadership about it. Some of those communications were odd, and it helped for my DH to see that. Some were things that even people who stayed found odd--I wanted so badly to say, "This is how everything is, you just can't see it in the other contexts." As another poster alluded to , there is so much truth to the idea of leadership not wanting to make people uncomfortable, except you (or the outlier). Our former church started adding so.many.hoops to things in the name of solving a problem that they wouldn't address head on, and it was damaging. We were urged to "take one for the team" when these things happened, but it just never stops. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Yes, it will be interesting how this looks a month from now, six months from now. As others have said, you may be getting some interesting answers from this that you didn't expect. I was feeling iffy about our church around the holidays and into January and February for multiple reasons. Then our church shut down entirely during the at-home orders. I felt thoroughly abandoned at a time when I needed them. They said to worship at home with the the father of the family in charge. Well, no father in my home because I'm a single parent. Now they being loosely-goosey with masks as I noted earlier. There's also a focus on politics that I'm unhappy with and some oddball things I heard in sermons when we started meeting again. I come away from just going to the first meeting every Sunday now with the thought "these are not my people." I dunno. Not sure what is next though because none of the churches in my area are being picky on masks. Some are still only online. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 I am so shocked at some of things being said to you @MercyA. Good grief. So sorry. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Bagels McGruffikin said: I’ve been reading along and holding comment, but please know it’s a tough situation and I know you’re trying to do your best in honoring seemly intractable sides. God sees your heart on this, and theirs too. Big hugs and prayers that the families involved are understanding, too. You see the side of the people who refuse to take basic precautions to stop the spread of a deadly virus in a congregation that includes vulnerable elderly congregants and young children who could live with the repercussions of Covid 19 for the rest of their lives??? Some fine people on both sides Bill 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 I tried to pm you @MercyA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Just now, Bagels McGruffikin said: For your information, you pot stirrer, I was implying to Mercy that her good motives and their selfish motives were both visible to the God we serve. And that I hoped the families she is trying to love will understand this as well. Go away if you’re just going to make baseless unkind comments. No one said or implied any such thing. Look in the mirror before you accuse others. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) Thank you so much for your sweet invitation and suggestion, @kand! Edited August 2, 2020 by MercyA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 @Scarlett, sorry! I have a hard time cleaning out old messages and I'm sure my box is just full. Give me a few minutes to throw something away. 🙂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) Pray for me, please!!! Teaching in one hour. Edited August 2, 2020 by MercyA 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junie Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Praying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintinative Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Thought of you last night and prayed, and will do so again this morning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Praying it goes smoothly! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Thinking of you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjffkj Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 praying 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 I woke up thinking about you this morning, Mercy. Praying everything goes smoothly this morning! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) Thanks for praying, all!! ❤️ Everything went smoothly. I only had two students, both from the same family, and they arrived wearing masks. No drama whatsoever. My classroom is in a tucked away part of the church, so I only saw a few other older students and teachers passing by. The teachers were masked but none of the kids were. I am now eating some Annie's Organic pop tarts. Yay for comfort food. 🙂 Edited October 20, 2020 by MercyA 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Well, some improvement here. I went to the first service, only about 1/2 had masks on the whole time. Then I left as I always do. My son grabbed one of the elders and told him again why I always leave, and why the church should be a safe place for everyone, among other reasons. The elder said that it was making him angry too. The thought of having to handle the funeral of someone who got COVID at church is upsetting to him. So they will come out with a statement soon. We'll see, but at least our concerns as a family were heard. I am nearly 60 with asthma, FWIW. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 33 minutes ago, G5052 said: Well, some improvement here. I went to the first service, only about 1/2 had masks on the whole time. Then I left as I always do. My son grabbed one of the elders and told him again why I always leave, and why the church should be a safe place for everyone, among other reasons. The elder said that it was making him angry too. The thought of having to handle the funeral of someone who got COVID at church is upsetting to him. So they will come out with a statement soon. We'll see, but at least our concerns as a family were heard. I am nearly 60 with asthma, FWIW. If you think it might help, you could share this letter about why my church is requiring masks...it might give that elder some basis to have the conversation with others in the church? On Requiring Face Protectors: Love of Neighbor or Partisan Divide? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Ktgrok said: If you think it might help, you could share this letter about why my church is requiring masks...it might give that elder some basis to have the conversation with others in the church? On Requiring Face Protectors: Love of Neighbor or Partisan Divide? Thank you. I will forward that. He did mention "love thy neighbor" and how masks express care for one another. My younger one came for the first time in weeks and was so anxious that she doesn't want to go back unless they are more serious about it. She also has asthma. I've had discussions before with others in the congregation to no avail, so we'll see. Everyone is masked when I go get my allergy shot. Everyone is masked when I go for PT. Everyone is masked when I do my volunteer work at a local ministry not related to my church. I teach online, but the college I work for is actively talking with the professors about what to do with students who refuse to mask. This far, it looks like they may have the professor tell them to mask or leave the classroom, and if they refuse, they will call security. Medical excuses will go through the disability office and are in a different category, and they are working on what they will do if there is a student in the classroom who needs to lip read. But my church? Not motivated at this point. Can you tell that I'm not optimistic? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted August 2, 2020 Author Share Posted August 2, 2020 7 hours ago, Ktgrok said: If you think it might help, you could share this letter about why my church is requiring masks...it might give that elder some basis to have the conversation with others in the church? On Requiring Face Protectors: Love of Neighbor or Partisan Divide? Love this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.