My church's response to COVID

[MercyA]

Thank you all so much. Love you. ❤️

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by MercyA

[SoCal_Bear]

My heart hurts for you because I see the same issues dividing many churches and Christian homeschooling groups. It's painful to see this divide. It grieves me because I think about how it is harming our witness as the Christian community in the world because their behavior is seen as hostile and unloving.

For me, I appreciated this article from Gospel Coaltion which laid out a compelling Scripture based argument why we ought to mask even if we don't like it. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/4-reasons-wear-mask/

I am praying for you.

[klmama]

I think you can simply say that you aren't comfortable attending when everyone isn't masked, because of your concern for the health of those in your community.   

[LJPPKGFGSC]

We need an emoji for HUGS.  That's all I've got.  My heart hurts for you.  I would not attend church, or teach a Sunday school class in those conditions.

 

 

[JustEm]

sorry.  In your position, I would simply say, "It is the law that we wear masks and Scripture teaches us that we are to obey the law.  Since many in our parish are unwilling to follow the law I can not support the church's decision to allow it. And then not speak about it more.

[maggie18]

What about putting others first and loving our neighbor? Why is that being ignored by your church-both the pastor and the congregation? I could not attend any church that didn't care about others. 

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, maggie18 said:

What about putting others first and loving our neighbor? Why is that being ignored by your church-both the pastor and the congregation? I could not attend any church that didn't care about others. 

My husband thinks it's because it's too inconvenient for them. I think it's because they still think COVID is no more dangerous than the flu. We both think politics has a lot to do with it. 

[Junie]

(((Mercy)))

I think I would tell them that I'm not ready to come back yet.  That will give you some more time to decide on a more long-term answer.

[maggie18]

I don't understand why we are even arguing about masks?? Some of the Christian fundamentalists want to police what girls and women wear and freak out if a woman is wearing a tank top, or pants, (vs a dress) but at the same time, they think it is infringing on their rights to wear a mask? 

Edited July 26, 2020 by maggie18

[iamonlyone]

Mercy, our church is very similar to yours. I have not attended in person. We are also in leadership positions (worship team, small group leaders). I don't like how this is causing an "us" and "them" mentality. We might need to find a new church, but it would be a hard change.

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, klmama said:

I think you can simply say that you aren't comfortable attending when everyone isn't masked, because of your concern for the health of those in your community.   

This. I was just going to suggest pretty much the same thing.

If you want more detail: "Research has shown that masks are effective in reducing transmission. The virus may not make everybody sick, but for some people, it can be very serious, even fatal. I can not in good conscience support ignoring the law that is intended to protect the vulnerable in our community."

Edited July 26, 2020 by regentrude

[ktgrok]

10 minutes ago, maggie18 said:

What about putting others first and loving our neighbor? Why is that being ignored by your church-both the pastor and the congregation? I could not attend any church that didn't care about others. 

Right. 

You have a serious problem here. You have people who are in the position of guiding and protecting their flock completely falling down on the job. The pastor is the shepherd, right? A shepherd guides and protects. That's his WHOLE JOB. And your pastor is guiding the flock in a scripturally tenuous direction since he is saying it is okay to break the law, AND he is failing to protect them. He's letting people be put at risk, on his watch, and doing NOTHING to prevent it. How can you trust him to guide and protect your children?

Also, any church that believes we all have our own facts, well that's enough of a lack of critical thinking that I'd be totally unable to trust their ability to understand and explain scripture or theology. If you can't understand the very simple thought that covering your mouth and catching the cooties helps prevent illness, I doubt your capacity to understand complex theological concepts. 

If this is political, that means he can be led astray by propaganda, and has been, and that would also be a reason i couldn't trust him or the church. 

Not to mention, I'd bet that church would have no problem enforcing what people wear or don't wear if your daughter showed up on Sunday in a bikini. So the idea that it is about personal choice is hogwash. 

As for your daughter - I'd be thinking how many kids grow up and leave the church and cite "hypocrisy"? If she's seeing this kind of thing, there is a real risk it will shake her faith. I mean, what IS Christianity, if not about sacrifice for others, and loving one's neighbor? What's left?

What you describe is something...but it's not Christian. 

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

I would examine this pastor's stance on "modest" woman's clothing and mostly what is his position on pro-life and abortion even in the case of rape and incest ? I've literally seen mask opposers claim the pro-choice "My body, my choice" slogan all the while being allegedly pro-life.Height of hypocrisy.

But I am more concerned about though is the spiritual aspect most especially of your daughter. Your pastor is a spiritual mentor even if he is not directly involved and he influences people and church policy, so do you really want him to be a faith mentor of your child ? Walk away from the church if you have to preserve your relationship with God especially your child's as this confuses and poisons the well so to speak. That is what we had to do. I am sorry again.

This. 

[ktgrok]

Yes, any church that preaches a woman should be willing to bear the "inconvenience" of 9 months of pregnancy, single motherhood, perhaps poverty, etc to save a single life, but thinks men shouldn't have to bear the "inconvenience" of wearing a mask for an hour at church during a pandemic to save perhaps many lives is not preaching Christianity, but patriarchy. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Ktgrok

[J-rap]

Ugh.  I feel for you.  Just today, a good friend of mine whose faith I've always respected posted something like this on Facebook:

"We’ve all seen the mask arguments. Many see the masks as a selfless way to help contribute to the slowing of the COVID spread. People like myself see strong evidence that the motives are not all about trying to "keep us safe". Others don't really have an opinion and just go along with whatever they are told.

The growing division in our country is at a rate never seen before and I believe this is the primary goal of the globalists. For when we are divided we cannot unify against evil agendas that they are trying to insert into our country. What happens in the United States will ultimately dictate what happens in the rest of the world and they know this.  Sow confusion. Keep people divided. That’s the strategy”.  

 

What in the world??  What are they even talking about??  And so many people seemed to agree with it.  (It was also all linked to God and faith as the underlying motivation for the post.)  I wonder if that kind of attitude is more prevalent in some churches than we know?

 

I just appreciate our church so, so much.  This morning's sermon was about trusting the experts.  The pastor talked about why he trusts that Christ was/is real, and also why he trusts Fauci.    🙂  Other churches are meeting now in our state, but our church will not meet in person until probably next year.  Because, you know, the church wants to keep people safe.  It's a loving, considerate gesture.

 

I actually don't believe, as Christians, we are always required to obey our government.  We're called first to obey God.   If we can, we'll obey both!  But God comes first.  However, God's bottom-line request of us is that we love God, and love our neighbor (not just our Christian neighbor, not just our church community, but everyone), with a type of unselfish love.  Not a love that necessarily comes easily for us, but one that might actually require us to sacrifice something.   It seems so simple, and I don't know how churches miss this.  Isn't that the heart of Christ's entire message?

 

Anyway, I suppose you can either give them a vague answer and say:  "I'm not ready to come back yet."   Or if you don't mind ruffling some feathers, you can say:  "I'm sorry, but I do believe that one of God's most important commandments is to love our neighbor, even in ways that are uncomfortable for us.  We have elderly people in our church congregation, and people who might bring the virus home to other high-risk people.  Unless masks are required or the virus goes away or a vaccine is found, my prayers and soul-searching have left me feeling that I need to refrain from church activities for now."

 

 

 

[J-rap]

6 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Oh, I am so sorry :-(. What a hard situation for you with a community you previously felt at home at. 

I would not teach there right now. I do not think helping an entity which is showing such callous disregard for the vulnerable is a particularly important thing to do, and moreover, I wouldn't expose yourself, since they seem to be prime for an outbreak. 

As for what to tell them, I do not think it matters very much. You should probably just gently tell them that you are concerned about exposure and that is why you are staying home. You are probably more likely to make an impression if you do not seem like you are trying to change anyone's mind. 

Many hugs to you. I'm so sorry your church is not coming through for you. 

You summed that up so nicely!

[Guest]

Wow, Mercy. I am so, so sorry. I personally would not capitulate. This is an absolute hard no for me. 

One time, I was feeling quite tortured because I wanted to give up a leadership position but I felt the responsibility of the thing very keenly. A wise friend told me, “Look, God can raise up another to take your place. You don’t have to personally solve every problem in the world.” It was such a load off my mind! 

I would say the same to you. You don’t have to teach the class and you don’t have to give some long explanation of why not. 

Recently, I bought a tee shirt that says, “Love thy neighbor” on it because I think that sums up so many of the issues we have in society right now. If we loved our neighbor, black lives would matter. If we loved our neighbor, we wouldn’t argue about masks. 

And I just *can’t* with literally anybody who says something like, “well, we may lose a few, but...” NOPE! Didn’t The Good Shepherd leave the 99 to go look for the one? All are precious in his sight, right? 

I’m sorry. It will be uncomfortable but I think it’s necessary to go and I’m very happy that your dh is in agreement...that would be worse if he disagreed! 

[Pen]

For your daughter’s (and everyone else’s) sake, I would find a new church congregation. 

 

What your husband described seeing this morning to me sounds only better than sharing poisoned koolaid insofar as the fatality rate of the virus is much lower than a 100% fatal poison.  It’s perhaps more like Russian Roulette. 

You have learned something important about the church. It is very sad.  

Nonetheless

 

Walk away. 

[J-rap]

I wanted to add....  I'd try to not respond out of anger.  (I don't mean to imply that you would -- I'm certain you wouldn't!  But I might, so I would need to work on my heart a bit before responding.)  It sounds like you really love that church otherwise.  People are the way they are because of their own backgrounds, brains, etc.  Probably most people there are really trying to be decent people.  I try to keep bringing myself around to that in my daily life.  It helps me respond out of love and not anger.

[DoraBora]

It is wrong for followers of Christ to disobey the law when that law doesn't contradict God's laws.  Most Christians -- including, it would seem, your current pastor -- don't seem to realize this.  I guess they haven't read the Bible.  Or they're not thinking straight.  

Regardless, I wouldn't stay.  I understand your concern about your daughter, but in the long run, seeing her parents choose to obey the law as commanded by God is more important for her than seeing her friends at church.  Obedience often involves sacrifice.  (I don't say this lightly.  Dh and I decided to leave a church because of its pastor and staff openly disobeying the Lord in "small" ways.  Our kids were in middle and high school.  It was hard, but I'm glad we did it.)

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by DoraBora

[cintinative]

47 minutes ago, calbear said:

My heart hurts for you because I see the same issues dividing many churches and Christian homeschooling groups. It's painful to see this divide. It grieves me because I think about how it is harming our witness as the Christian community in the world because their behavior is seen as hostile and unloving.

 

So much this. I have been SO grieved. 

[Ausmumof3]

I don’t have good advice just wanted to say we are having some division and hurt feelings about complying with our very easy covid restrictions here as well.  One of my friends was saying “it’s really just people having to deal with a lot of change all at once and not coping”. Which kind of helped.  However I think for your situation regentrudes wordings is kind of perfect.  The right balance of saying what needs to be said without being too hurtful.

[maggie18]

2 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I wanted to add....  I'd try to not respond out of anger.  (I don't mean to imply that you would -- I'm certain you wouldn't!  But I might, so I would need to work on my heart a bit before responding.)  It sounds like you really love that church otherwise.  People are the way they are because of their own backgrounds, brains, etc.  Probably most people there are really trying to be decent people.  I try to keep bringing myself around to that in my daily life.  It helps me respond out of love and not anger.

Why would it be wrong to be angry?

[cintinative]

7 minutes ago, maggie18 said:

Why would it be wrong to be angry?

 

There is certainly a place for righteous anger, but I tend to think of that as "anger under control."  Self-control, patience, kindness, and gentleness are fruits of the Spirit.  So I guess it comes down to what @J-rap meant, and I think she/he meant to respond in submission to the Spirit and full of His fruit, and not in a way that seems to be unbridled anger. 

Romans 12: 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Proverbs 15:1  A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Proverbs 15:2  The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly.

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, regentrude said:

This. I was just going to suggest pretty much the same thing.

If you want more detail: "Research has shown that masks are effective in reducing transmission. The virus may not make everybody sick, but for some people, it can be very serious, even fatal. I can not in good conscience support ignoring the law that is intended to protect the vulnerable in our community."

Thank you for this wording-I have been getting parents questioning why I am expecting masks for my students inside the classroom when the school district is not requiring them. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by dmmetler

[cintinative]

OP, I am truly sorry. As others have noted, I have seen division among Christians and I am so grieved by it. In many ways, I just don't understand it. 

I would not feel obligated to teach Sunday School under those conditions.  If you are going to feel unsafe every week (which would be justified IMO), that is going to adversely affect you in ways beyond potential COVID exposure.  

I will send up prayers for you. This is such a hard, hard situation, but our Lord will not abandon you in it. 

[Terabith]

I'm currently wearing a tshirt that says, "Bad Theology Kills."  

In this era, literally.  

[maggie18]

Also that verse quoted above  (Romans 12:19) makes it clear  that it's okay for God to be angry, and not just angry, but wrathful and vengeful. If we are supposed to be like God, and strive to have the character of God, and He sets the example for us on how to behave and treat people,  then it sounds like it is even okay for his followers to take revenge. It is as if God is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do" in that verse. 

I'm just pointing out  what the Bible actually says. Why does God get a pass? He doesn't sound very kind.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by maggie18

[matrips]

I’m sorry.  That’s hard when a huge support system like your church doesn’t feel like it is behind you.  

I would offer to teach virtually, but just repeat that you’re not comfortable in person.  Or if you are okay as long as there are masks, then just keep repeating that is your comfort level.  Everyone has their own risk tolerance, for their own reasons.  

Me- I’m a chicken.  We stay home, and if we have to go out, we mask.  But I am also a homebody and an introvert and that is my comfort zone.

just keep praying for guidance and wisdom, for everyone involved.  

[J-rap]

38 minutes ago, maggie18 said:

Why would it be wrong to be angry?

Good question...  I don't think anger is wrong.  But I think even anger has to be rooted in love.  I guess that's what I was trying to say.

[J-rap]

27 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

There is certainly a place for righteous anger, but I tend to think of that as "anger under control."  Self-control, patience, kindness, and gentleness are fruits of the Spirit.  So I guess it comes down to what @J-rap meant, and I think she/he meant to respond in submission to the Spirit and full of His fruit, and not in a way that seems to be unbridled anger. 

Romans 12: 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Proverbs 15:1  A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Proverbs 15:2  The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly.

Yes, thank you.  (And "she" is correct.  :))  

[ktgrok]

21 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I'm currently wearing a tshirt that says, "Bad Theology Kills."  

In this era, literally.  

Ok, off to google. I need that shirt, or at least a bumper sticker. 

5 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Good question...  I don't think anger is wrong.  But I think even anger has to be rooted in love.  I guess that's what I was trying to say.

Yes, good point. Angry at the situation, not hatred of the people. 

 

[ktgrok]

The more I think about how he is clearly not understanding the scripture about upholding the law unless it goes against God's will, the more I wonder what OTHER scripture is he messing up or not understanding?

[Frances]

1 hour ago, calbear said:

My heart hurts for you because I see the same issues dividing many churches and Christian homeschooling groups. It's painful to see this divide. It grieves me because I think about how it is harming our witness as the Christian community in the world because their behavior is seen as hostile and unloving.
 

As someone who is no longer a Christian, I want you to know that at least for me, seeing the divide is very encouraging and I have a great deal of respect for Christians who are putting others before themselves and trying to do the right thing. I’m hopeful that in the long run, more will follow the example of people like Mercy and truly live by what they profess to believe. I’m sure it’s not news to you that long before this, many saw some Christians in less than a positive light, especially with the toxic mix of religion and politics that is now the norm in the US. While I truly don’t like to see the hurt it is causing some, they should be hopeful that their pain and suffering might bring about some much needed change. They are the shining examples of Christianity the world needs to see during these trying times.

.

 

 

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok, off to google. I need that shirt, or at least a bumper sticker. 

Yes, good point. Angry at the situation, not hatred of the people. 

 

https://queerlybeloved.shop/products/bad-theology-kills-tee

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

https://queerlybeloved.shop/products/bad-theology-kills-tee

Oh my goodness! Love their stuff! And the kids JUST studied the fruits of the spirit today in virtual sunday school, so I clicked on the fruit of the spirit shirt and snorted so loud my husband turned around. Too funny. 

I'm going to order the God is love is love shirt, and the bad theology kills sticker I think - how do the shirts fit? Men's sizing I assume?

 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

Oh my goodness! Love their stuff! And the kids JUST studied the fruits of the spirit today in virtual sunday school, so I clicked on the fruit of the spirit shirt and snorted so loud my husband turned around. Too funny. 

I'm going to order the God is love is love shirt, and the bad theology kills sticker I think - how do the shirts fit? Men's sizing I assume?

 

Men’s sizing.  True to size.  (Also check our Christian Left.  And...let me look.  I have an entire wardrobe of Christian tshirts like this.)

[MercyA]

28 minutes ago, maggie18 said:

Also that verse quoted above  (Romans 12:19) makes it clear  that it's okay for God to be angry, and not just angry, but wrathful and vengeful. If we are supposed to be like God, and strive to have the character of God, and He sets the example for us on how to behave and treat people,  then it sounds like it is even okay for his followers to take revenge. It is as if God is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do" in that verse. 

I'm just pointing out  what the Bible actually says. Why does God get a pass? He doesn't sound very kind.

We don't have all the rights God has. He can and does, at times, take life. It is not for us to do that, or to exact revenge. 

That said, I think there is a place for righteous anger. As Scripture says, "Be angry and sin not." I am angry when the vulnerable are not protected, and I have every right to be. But for me to respond with an angry rather than a gentle tone would only hurt my chances of influencing anyone. I have done that too many times in my life already. 😞 

[PeterPan]

I would be much more concerned about the attitude of the leaders. They clearly have issues with authority and want to be authorities without being under authority. That's worth leaving over because that won't be blessed. But the people, yeah a lot of attitudes are coming out. I assumed our church would be complying with the mandates, since they had said they would. However I showed up for the 2nd week and people (adults) were in a back room hanging with no masks. I walk in with mine, sudden silence. They know.

So people are doing what the leadership allows. It's a mess.

[PeterPan]

I don't see how you can teach SS under those terms. You can't change policy or add requirements.

[cintinative]

32 minutes ago, maggie18 said:

Also that verse quoted above  (Romans 12:19) makes it clear  that it's okay for God to be angry, and not just angry, but wrathful and vengeful. If we are supposed to be like God, and strive to have the character of God, and He sets the example for us on how to behave and treat people,  then it sounds like it is even okay for his followers to take revenge. It is as if God is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do" in that verse. 

I'm just pointing out  what the Bible actually says. Why does God get a pass? He doesn't sound very kind.

 

 

 

I think that this is a whole other thread, if you want to start one. 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Men’s sizing.  True to size.  (Also check our Christian Left.  And...let me look.  I have an entire wardrobe of Christian tshirts like this.)

Ok, how did I not know there was a store on T-spring for the Christian left????? Drooling...

[PeterPan]

It completely mystifies me why people do not care what message this is sending their kids. I vehemently dislike masks, but the rule is the rule, the law is the law. You don't just sneak around saying it's fine if you get away with it.

[MercyA]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't see how you can teach SS under those terms. You can't change policy or add requirements.

Kids will be masked in my classroom, the end. If they don't like it, they can find someone else to teach in my place. 😉 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

Kids will be masked in my classroom, the end. If they don't like it, they can find someone else to teach in my place. 😉 

You can't mask someone's dc if the parent doesn't want it. 

[MercyA]

Speaking of t-shirts! I've not been a particular fan of Life Is Good in the past, just because I am not at all outdoorsy. 🙂 BUT! I love some of their current selections:

More Science, Less Fiction

Kindness Is Everything

Love Your Neighbor (heart with a mask)

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

You can't mask someone's dc if the parent doesn't want it. 

True. My plan is to send them to their parents if they refuse to wear a mask in my classroom. I won't willingly be part of people violating the law and putting others at risk.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Speaking of t-shirts! I've not been a particular fan of Life Is Good in the past, just because I am not at all outdoorsy. 🙂 BUT! I love some of their current selections:

More Science, Less Fiction

Kindness Is Everything

Love Your Neighbor (heart with a mask)

Thank you! DH LOVES these shirts - so soft, and maybe a few new ones would be appreciated. 

[maggie18]

6 minutes ago, MercyA said:

True. My plan is to send them to their parents if they refuse to wear a mask in my classroom. I won't willingly be part of people violating the law and putting others at risk.

It sounds like you have made up your mind to teach (and perhaps, to stay?)

[MercyA]

On 7/26/2020 at 8:21 PM, maggie18 said:

It sounds like you have made up your mind to teach (and perhaps, to stay?)

To teach. I don't feel like I can in good conscience give less than a week's notice. 

I will not be attending worship.

Edited July 30, 2020 by MercyA