My church's response to COVID

[happi duck]

Many (hugs)

 

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

True. My plan is to send them to their parents if they refuse to wear a mask in my classroom. I won't willingly be part of people violating the law and putting others at risk.

If the church is not requiring masks, this is not reasonable. If the church is, then it's obvious.

I don't see making a row with parents and kids whn your beef is with the leadership. 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

To teach for now. I don't feel like I can in good conscience give less than a week's notice. I haven't decided about staying. 

I will not be attending worship.

You could tell the leadership upfront and let them solve the problem they have made by not enforcing the law.

[maggie18]

Maybe you could email the person in charge of Sunday School now, and let them know that you will be requiring masks for all kids in your classroom.  That way it is out in the open now and they have time to find someone else if they are not okay with you requiring this.

[frogger]

MercyA

I just want to say I get it. You have had some basic wise answers given already. To me this can be a time of testing to purify his people.

 

Many people have allowed politics to become their idol. I recently heard the statement, "Where you get your knowledge, is what you have put your trust in."  It was in a discussion about the serpent but it also applies in a more general sense. If we look to the Bible for guidance there would be no division. Love your neighbor, submit to governing authorities, and also Paul becoming like others to not allow them to stumble all reflect a position of more concern for others first. "In humility consider others more important than yourselves."

 

I will say though that SOME actions have different motivations than we realize. My friend recently relayed a statement to me, " We judge ourselves by our motivations and others we judge by their actions." I honestly believe that many who refuse to mask think they are doing the right thing. It sounds ludicrous but they have heard over and over the evils of masking. Sigh.  

On another thread recently I confessed to walking around thinking people were stupid and selfish. It is a battle I always fight. In reality I should be looking at them as sheep without a shepherd but that is my sin to conquer. You seem to be more thoughtful than I. 

I have chosen not to place myself in a position of service because I know that it is likely I will quit going soon. Actually, I quit early due to my own illness but that was my original thought. The first time I attended I warned my kids that we would be the only ones masked and I was close to right. There was one other couple. Most of us couldn't hack it 2 weeks in a row so only my youngest went back the next week and a doctor people respected showed a video on the importance of masking and then some more families joined. Then a mask mandate was issued and so we tried again and about 60% masked. So I really think there are different motives for different people and different things will help them.  If I can keep my calm and be reasonable then I know I have some (just a little influence). Those who are completely brainwashed are a lost cause but there are so many that are just confused. Some try and have bad habits with masks because they aren't used to having to think about them much. 

 

Sorry this is so rambly.

My guess is you cannot force kids to be masked without leadership being in agreement with you. You will not be allowed to exclude kids and kids parents won't mask. I'm sorry. 

[frogger]

17 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You could tell the leadership upfront and let them solve the problem they have made by not enforcing the law.

 

This makes more sense to me.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

While I agree 100% that what they are doing is very, very wrong, I think you are in the wrong, to plan to blindside the families and the church leadership. Surprising them all with an additional requirement just for your classroom will cause an awful lot of drama and be taken very, very badly.

If you are going to enforce a stricter environment in your classroom, you should inform the pastor and the head of the Sunday school -- in time for them to decide whether they'll allow you to do that, and if so, in time to inform the families so they can make their choice.

You can really only control your family. For me, this would mean leaving, and informing them via email today. It is never the end of the world if children don't have a Sunday school class to go to, on any random Sunday - if there's classroom space, someone else (perhaps even one of their parents) could take them for that hour. If that's unacceptable to the pastor or the head of the Sunday school, then they have a week to solve the problem. I don't mind some inconvenience for them, if they are complicit in endangering human lives.

But a hill to die on is a hill where you've got a foothold, and in that church and Sunday school class, you really do not. Your authority in that space is not greater than the pastor's church-wide leadership into anarchy and destruction. The hills you can and should claim are your conscience and the protection and care of your own family -- just get out of there. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Lang Syne Boardie

[MercyA]

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Edited July 27, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

I agree with you all. I strongly believe I should tell the leadership that I will be requiring masks in my classroom and that it is non-negotiable for me. I have no problem doing that, especially since I believe I am fully in the right. 😉 

[.]

Edited July 30, 2020 by MercyA

[Spy Car]

I'm sorry you are going through this @MercyA.

Bill

 

45 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

It completely mystifies me why people do not care what message this is sending their kids. I vehemently dislike masks, but the rule is the rule, the law is the law. You don't just sneak around saying it's fine if you get away with it.

I don’t know what state this is in...in my state masks are required in all public indoor spaces with a fine attached, but masks are not required, only encouraged, during worship services.

[MercyA]

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Edited October 20, 2020 by MercyA

[RootAnn]

I'm sorry you are facing this, MercyA & am sad for the divisiveness (and illness) this issue is causing.

Hugs.

[SanDiegoMom]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

As for your daughter - I'd be thinking how many kids grow up and leave the church and cite "hypocrisy"? If she's seeing this kind of thing, there is a real risk it will shake her faith. I mean, what IS Christianity, if not about sacrifice for others, and loving one's neighbor? What's left?

 

I attended a southern baptist church as a child because my parents were comfortable, had friends, and did not like to make waves. I grew very disillusioned as a teenager with the hypocrisy and left all religion.  I would say it would be much better for your daughter to leave an environment that does not align with your values as a family.  

[Liz CA]

3 hours ago, MercyA said:

My husband thinks it's because it's too inconvenient for them. I think it's because they still think COVID is no more dangerous than the flu. We both think politics has a lot to do with it. 

 

Politics seems to have permeated every facet of life, however, I feel there is a deeper issue that may be a hurdle. Many church leadership staff are struggling how to frame CV19. Some firmly believe that God will protect whom he will protect or allow to contract the virus but come out okay whereas for those who may not, it's God's will.

Yes, there is a lot of contradictory information and I do think the overload of information is worse than fewer facts would be in this case. It comes back to one thing only IMHO: everyone is responsible for their own actions. I would not attend if I was not ready to go among unmasked people and sneezing kiddos. This whole CV19 has way more far reaching consequences than appear on the surface.  I do find the remark "we may lose some..." disturbing. However, it's not the first time I heard this sentiment. A client of mine voiced it similarly recently. The desperation this is causing on a wider level is something many did not anticipate.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Liz CA

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok, how did I not know there was a store on T-spring for the Christian left????? Drooling...

Yep. There’s like 8 shirts I want on here...I’m sending texts to my dd; she will love these. 

[Terabith]

I think if it's the law, you just hand kids masks and play clueless.  "Of COURSE we have to wear masks in my class!  It's the law!"  Just pretend you've never seen anyone maskless anywhere in the church and assume that of course everyone is wearing masks indoors.  

[Pen]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

This. I was just going to suggest pretty much the same thing.

If you want more detail: "Research has shown that masks are effective in reducing transmission. The virus may not make everybody sick, but for some people, it can be very serious, even fatal. I can not in good conscience support ignoring the law that is intended to protect the vulnerable in our community."

 

@MercyA Good wording if you need to say something.

Though I expect you would get an “everyone has their own facts” type reply 

Nonetheless, It should not even have had to be a law imo.  Should have been done in a protection of and Caring for the vulnerable, weak and needy, a Christian Caritas type thing. 

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Kids will be masked in my classroom, the end. If they don't like it, they can find someone else to teach in my place. 😉 

 

What about the parents who arrive with kids or to pick them up? What about kids like the unmasked sneezing that your husband saw.  You can’t physically force a mask on someone. Will you walk out of Sunday School leaving the kid’s unattended?  If that’s your plan you should let them know in writing in advance so that they can have a back up person ready to go. Otherwise you may be caught between a legal problem for leaving children attended versus personally being exposed to unmasked infectious kids for a whole class period. 

At best you will likely be dealing with minimally masked infectious kids. 

Sending kids to parents may or may not work and may be too late if someone is shedding a lot of virus. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Pen

[MercyA]

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Edited July 27, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

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Edited July 30, 2020 by MercyA

[Terabith]

Just now, MercyA said:

This is what my husband wanted. 😉 

That said, if you're in a hotspot and you think it's actually likely kids might be infectious, then I'd probably bow out, even if adults were masking fastidiously.  It's an important extra layer of protection, but kids do stupid things like taking their masks off to sneeze, and that would be alarming if you're somewhere that rates are super high.  

[Ottakee]

2 hours ago, DoraBora said:

It is wrong for followers of Christ to disobey the law when that law doesn't contradict God's laws.  Most Christians -- including, it would seem, your current pastor -- don't seem to realize this.  I guess they haven't read the Bible.  Or they're not thinking straight.  

I would check and make sure that there are not religious services exemptions to the mask mandates.   In Michigan, religious services are encourage to mask but not required.

[Momto6inIN]

Mercy, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. It is completely appropriate for you to feel hurt and upset and maybe even angry. I think your pastor and fellow members are handling it wrong and making poor decisions. I think you were handling it in a Biblical way to make your first step a one on one conversation with your pastor. The next Biblical step would be to bring one or two witnesses to another conversation with him ... are there any at all in the church who might be similar in thinking as you and your DH?

Having said all that, I also think the verses in the Bible about forbearance apply here. Forbearance is required when we truly feel that someone we know and love is wrong about something. I don't think it means we write them off and leave.

[maggie18]

https://www.in.gov/gov/files/Executive Order 20-37 Face Covering Requirement.pdf

See section 4, letter o.

[Acadie]

Mercy, you are a kind and thoughtful person and I wish we attended the same church!

Previous posters have suggested straightforward and openhearted language to use in communicating with other adults and leadership at your church. I wouldn't pretend anything or speak only with children.

It's okay if your communication with the pastor and parents sparks conflict. This may be exactly what your church needs and what you are called to do. 

It's okay if the conflict can't be resolved, and your family decides to step away from the church after that.

Your words and actions may give courage and heart to others who want to comply with health regulations, but don't yet see that as an option in this community. Your words and actions may give courage and heart to parishioners who feel very vulnerable to Covid and unprotected in the community.

Your words and actions are powerful, and although conflict is awkward and painful it is not the worst that can happen. Accepting that there is no conflict-free option, and that conflict may in fact do some good, may help you figure out what feels right for your family and what you love about your church community.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Acadie

[MercyA]

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Edited July 30, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

7 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

Mercy, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. It is completely appropriate for you to feel hurt and upset and maybe even angry. I think your pastor and fellow members are handling it wrong and making poor decisions. I think you were handling it in a Biblical way to make your first step a one on one conversation with your pastor. The next Biblical step would be to bring one or two witnesses to another conversation with him ... are there any at all in the church who might be similar in thinking as you and your DH?

Having said all that, I also think the verses in the Bible about forbearance apply here. Forbearance is required when we truly feel that someone we know and love is wrong about something. I don't think it means we write them off and leave.

Yes, I have thought of this. Thank you. ❤️

There may be one or two others in agreement with us.

[MercyA]

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Edited October 20, 2020 by MercyA

[maggie18]

How old are the kids in your class? That link says that if they are 8 or younger, they don't have to wear a mask.

[MercyA]

20 hours ago, maggie18 said:

How old are the kids in your class? That link says that if they are 8 or younger, they don't have to wear a mask.

[Early elementary.] I wouldn't ask some to mask and allow others not to do so.

Thankfully the county mandate applies to everyone age 3 or older. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

I am writing the email now. Will send it later tonight or first thing in the morning.

Please, please pray, all, that this will be resolved in a way that is best for all. 

Love you all so much. ❤️

[rebcoola]

I'm so sorry!!

I understand your frustrations just a little.  In the beginning my church seemed great they closed before they were mandated and talked about loving thy neighbor etc.  But as things have dragged out some combination of quarantine fatigue and frustration with inconsistency in mandates has changed things.   

When their was a loosening of restrictions they immediately opened outdoor service even though our numbers were bad and they had singing though with masks even though our numbers were 20 times higher than when we voluntarily closed out of an abundance of caution and love.

When the governor bartered with local government and eased a few restrictions in exchange for help from them and a mask mandate.  They immediately moved inside.  Our numbers were terrible at this point and our ICU was 90% full.  Everyone did follow the rules but to me this was not the loving thing to do.  

This week the sermon was that they governor was moving church back outside. We are going to comply for now.  Though everyone should be ready for the  day we won't be able to comply.  A whole bunch that sounded like gearing up for a fight.  Plus a whole bunch on how we need to gather for worship and basically if you wont get deathly ill than you should be at service.  Like their is no other way to gather for worship without at least 50 people.  Nevermind that 1/3 of this church started out as small house churches. Ugh!    Plus I know most have been following rules like wearing masks at the store but they are having backyard gatherings and not wearing masks.

I don't like mandates banning churches from meeting and some areas are definitely getting close to being a constitutional problem.  If casinos and such can be open it's hard to say you have a compelling reason for churches to be closed.  I think churches should be online or small outdoor groups of their own accord because it is the right thing to do.

Edited July 27, 2020 by rebcoola
Spelling

[amyx4]

Maybe your email will create some change. Sometimes, people just resist change because...well....it's change🙄

Someone in our life has gone from, "It's just the flu." to now saying, "When school starts in the fall, teachers should move from class to class so that the students stay in their assigned seats all day."  

[Momto6inIN]

25 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Yes, I have thought of this. Thank you. ❤️

There may be one or two others in agreement with us.

I figured you had, but I know I often need reminding in the heat of emotion ❤

[MercyA]

@Dreamergal, I already make a point of not knowingly contradicting what the children have been told by their parents, be it the existence of Santa Claus or young earth creationism. 🙂 

If I am allowed to continue to teach, I might just add masking to our posted and illustrated list of rules.

We review the rules all the time and I think this would be a good way to communicate my expectations to the kids with making it an issue or contradicting their parents.

Edited July 30, 2020 by MercyA

[Momto6inIN]

20 minutes ago, square_25 said:

The problem is that when we stay where people are doing wrong, we wind up unintentionally complicit in the wrong thing. It's a hard balance. 

I think there's a difference between mistaken-wrong, foolish-wrong, ignorant-wrong, careless-wrong, and selfish-wrong versus intentionally doing something morally wrong. I myself have been mistaken, foolish, ignorant, careless, and selfish at times, and I hope people that love me don't write me off.

[Pen]

51 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I will say the same thing to the kids regardless of whether their parents are there or not.

If they won't put on a mask, they will have to leave the classroom and return to their parents.

Hopefully this will all be avoided if my expectations are communicated to the parents ahead of time.

 

I hope that works well for you.

if so, I’d love to know the language you use that will get compliance when the legal mandate has not.

 

[Pen]

25 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I am writing the email now. Will send it later tonight or first thing in the morning.

Please, please pray, all, that this will be resolved in a way that is best for all. 

Love you all so much. ❤️

 

Praying.

[TravelingChris]

My church is indoors but no singing, social distancing and mandatory face masking.  Our church has also urged people like me who are high risk not to attend.  So neither my husband or I attend.  We watch online.

I will be praying for you, Mercy.

 

I can say that from the three people on facebook that I know were against face masking- one has recently changed her mind and become gungho about face masking.  (And by the way, none of the three people were people who had anything to do with spread of COVID--- no risky behaviior, no parties, no unnecessary visits anywhere, or anything like that)  I am hoping the other two come around too.

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

The more I think about how he is clearly not understanding the scripture about upholding the law unless it goes against God's will, the more I wonder what OTHER scripture is he messing up or not understanding?

Yes, that's what I would think too!

[Terabith]

In my experience, it's easier to get kids to do things like wear a mask if it's presented matter of factly by a respected teacher than it is to get parents to do so, regardless of the legal situation.  Kids are a lot more used to going along with whatever random adult tells them to do.  

[Spy Car]

40 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

I think there's a difference between mistaken-wrong, foolish-wrong, ignorant-wrong, careless-wrong, and selfish-wrong versus intentionally doing something morally wrong. I myself have been mistaken, foolish, ignorant, careless, and selfish at times, and I hope people that love me don't write me off.

Into which category of "wrong" do you place willingly and negligently exposing vulnerable people to a deadly virus?

I don't see how these actions are anything but profoundly wrong on the basis of morality. Not to mention illegal.

Bill

[Pam in CT]

(( MercyA ))

Whatever your decision about continuing with the church and with teaching, your longstanding commitment to privileging life -- which I'm sure your church community is well aware of -- can serve as the language with which you convey it.

 

(Here is the statement that the national conference of my own faith tradition issued just weeks after this all began, guidance that remains in place through today -- explicitly rooted in the supreme value of saving a life -- and aimed to give local leaders a standard that explicitly privileges life even where national and state authorities are less restrictive.

Quote

..The risk of an array of diverse and sometimes conflicting regulations is that our congregants may choose the voice that is most convenient for them to hear or simply act without sufficient caution because the standards are unclear. Amidst that potential confusion, the example set by congregational leadership can not only provide clarity, it can save lives.

That is why we urge you to take the most restrictive steps possible in order to help limit the spread of disease.  Affordable technologies like Zoom and Facebook Live make it possible for congregations to reach into the homes and hearts of their members without being in the same space, and without service leaders being in our Temple buildings. Even where other activity might still be permitted by local authorities, we strongly recommend that congregational leaders observe and endorse a strategy of shelter-in-place...

...We know that circumstances vary from region to region and congregation to congregation, and we know that you as leaders will make the best decisions for your communities. We also understand that the realities of your home situation may reflect your decision-making process. But as diverse as circumstances might be, the overarching Jewish value common to every circumstance is pikuach nefesh, the supreme value of saving a life. We would be remiss if we didn’t express in the strongest possible terms our conviction that whatever the present impact of the virus on your community, the greatest caution will save the greatest number of lives.

)

 

Holding you in the light as you work through these decisions.

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

I agree with you all. I strongly believe I should tell the leadership that I will be requiring masks in my classroom and that it is non-negotiable for me. I have no problem doing that, especially since I believe I am fully in the right. 😉 We have no Sunday School coordinator at the moment, so the pastor has taken on that job. It would just be a matter of emailing him. 

My husband does not think this is a good idea. He thinks I should just hand the kids a mask when they come in, say simply "we'll be wearing masks in our class," and explain "it's the law" if questioned. I think this may blow up.

Here's the deal--the kids' parents are, for the most part, my close friends (and one of them is my sister!). Up until this point, they have loved me teaching their kids. The kids love me. These are not, I don't think, people who are likely to turn on me. 

Still I think it's the right thing to do to be open about it, and it may end up solving my problem entirely. 😞 

I'll speak to my husband about it tonight.

 

55 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

 

Having said all that, I also think the verses in the Bible about forbearance apply here. Forbearance is required when we truly feel that someone we know and love is wrong about something. I don't think it means we write them off and leave.

But when you are talking about someone who is a spiritual leader, who is not leading, or is actively teaching the wrong things, where do you draw the line?

53 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Do not send a child from class. It will be a rejection of the church to that child that will stand out and it is scaring.

Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. I would have been a kid that would have felt very embarrassed and rejected. 

39 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I am writing the email now. Will send it later tonight or first thing in the morning.

Please, please pray, all, that this will be resolved in a way that is best for all. 

Love you all so much. ❤️

I'm glad you are sending it. Praying. 

16 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

I think there's a difference between mistaken-wrong, foolish-wrong, ignorant-wrong, careless-wrong, and selfish-wrong versus intentionally doing something morally wrong. I myself have been mistaken, foolish, ignorant, careless, and selfish at times, and I hope people that love me don't write me off.

And I hope that if you are around someone who is mistaken in a way that could harm you physically, or even cost you your life, you will take yourself out of that situation. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Whether to continue meeting at church, Sunday school, etc. is a grayer area theologically than this thread would seem to indicate.

On the ‘keep going’ side—“Forsake not gathering together”, and “We must obey God rather than men.”

On the ‘don’t meet’ side—“Obey secular authorities” and “Love one another”.

It’s also gray from an American perspective:

”Freedom of religious expression” vs. the State’s role in maintaining public health.  The longer churches are forbidden to meet, and the more restrictions are put on their meetings relative to other gatherings, the more concerning this is.  Also, accepting a lot of restrictions on meeting sets a concerning precedent in some ways.  

On the other hand, meeting but with some precautions seems like a good way to balance the two sides, and that is what I would be inclined to argue to the PTB there.  Self-restricting does not have to be ‘because of local law’.  It can be ‘because it is the most loving thing to do.’

I disagree with your pastors.  It’s not OK to say that we will lose some.  It IS, however, OK to say that as Christians we do not fear death.  But at the same time, Jesus Himself quotes the prohibition on tempting God.  I think that masking and meeting outdoors if possible, or spaced by family groups if not possible are just good, sensible ways of loving our neighbors.  And I also think that people in high risk groups should be encouraged to avoid going, and that the church should provide online services for those folks if at all possible.  Again, this is a good sensible way to love our neighbors.

I had a pastor (not my own) say to me when this all was starting that, well, this only effects the elderly very much.  And my answer to him was, “Elderly means over 60.  That is a LOT of people, and I would miss them a ton if a bunch of them died.”  And honestly, he changed then and there.  He just had not thought of it that way before.  So I can say for sure, sometimes it is worth it to have the discussion.

So, you already did that, good for you!  And it didn’t work, which is very unfortunate.  

So now what?  I agree with others that surprising people with a mask requirement in the classroom, though tempting, is not the best course of action.  Parents need to know how their children will be treated and what the expectations are, up front.  As a bunch of homeschoolers, I’m guessing most of us would be pretty unhappy to have this sprung on our kids without prior notice.

I think it’s reasonable to let the pastor and parents know that you’re going to require this, but I don’t think things are going to go smoothly.  Your pastor sounds kind of weak, and I don’t know that you can hope for consistency from him, even in support that he commits to you.  Some people are like that, and that means you never know what is going to happen.  That would not be OK with me.  If this were me, I think I would record Sunday School classes and email them to the families of all the kids in your class.  And I would not teach on campus.  I would get my husband to argue for recording the church services as well.  (Because I would not want that issue to get mixed up with my other ones, and appear to be ‘the problem person’.). And that’s where I would leave it for now.

 

 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

 But what I also believe is do not let children see differences in theology or politics when it comes to the faith.

How then will they grow up to be critical  thinkers instead of blind followers?

[desertflower]

5 hours ago, maggie18 said:

Also that verse quoted above  (Romans 12:19) makes it clear  that it's okay for God to be angry, and not just angry, but wrathful and vengeful. If we are supposed to be like God, and strive to have the character of God, and He sets the example for us on how to behave and treat people,  then it sounds like it is even okay for his followers to take revenge. It is as if God is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do" in that verse. 

I'm just pointing out  what the Bible actually says. Why does God get a pass? He doesn't sound very kind.

 

 

If it helps to understand the verse, we don't handle things the way God does.  If we take vengeance in our hands, it hurts the other person and ourselves because we act out of anger and not out of love.  We want to hurt when we take vengeance.  When God takes vengeance it is to rectify a situation and not just to hurt somebody.  He has the power to do this without making the situation worse.

[desertflower]

Mercy - my heart goes out to you.  We have a few people in our church who want to meet in person as well.  Fortunately, most of us are taking a safety route.  You are welcome to join us online.  🙂 Our elders have said that it looks like we will be attending services via zoom for another year.  👍

[MercyA]

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Edited July 30, 2020 by MercyA

[MercyA]

Thank you, @desertflower. ❤️