wuhan - coronavirus

[bookbard]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

Two that stood out to me were the one showing that masking made more difference in transmission in buildings than doubling outdoor air ventilation

Yes, that is really interesting. While I think the increased ventilation thing is huge, I worry that it's overstated - what I mean is, that it's seen by some as 'the answer'. It's one of the things that will help, along with masking, vaccinations, isolating people who are sick etc. If someone sneezes right next to you, the air isn't going to be purified fast enough to stop transmission. 

[Katy]

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

This thread was a great rundown of recent scientific papers around covid.  Including the fact that masking may reduce severity of covid, even if it doesn't 100% prevent it; and that schools and children are a driver of covid spread.

 

Thank you.  I think I just decided we're continuing to homeschool next year, even after the littles get vaccinated. Thank you so much.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

Yes, that is really interesting. While I think the increased ventilation thing is huge, I worry that it's overstated - what I mean is, that it's seen by some as 'the answer'. It's one of the things that will help, along with masking, vaccinations, isolating people who are sick etc. If someone sneezes right next to you, the air isn't going to be purified fast enough to stop transmission. 

I agree, but I am glad to know there are things we can do that the anti-vax and anti-mask crowd might finally deign to do. 

[bookbard]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

I agree, but I am glad to know there are things we can do that the anti-vax and anti-mask crowd might finally deign to do. 

I'm really hoping they invent something (maybe that UV thing?) that doesn't rely on human behaviour change, because I do think that relying on it is unrealistic. 

[bookbard]

Here's an article about the nasal spray thing - there's about 8 different ones being trialled. Not simple, but could be highly effective.

Nose Spray Vaccines Could Quash COVID Virus Variants - Scientific American

[Ting Tang]

 

10 hours ago, bookbard said:

Here's an article about the nasal spray thing - there's about 8 different ones being trialled. Not simple, but could be highly effective.

Nose Spray Vaccines Could Quash COVID Virus Variants - Scientific American

I will click...  I will click.... Later.  I am honestly just so frustrated.  I've been hearing about various things for a long time, and I feel like they will never come to fruition.  It sure would be nice to have something in addition to our masks or our sensibility to just stay home.  😞

 

[Mom_to3]

I think I am living in a nightmare! It looks like there may be no vaccines for the US next fall except for those at the very highest risk. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/09/us-will-limit-covid-vaccines-to-high-risk-people-this-fall-if-congress-doesnt-approve-more-funding.html

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

There's no talk here (AU) of future vaccines. Immunocompromised and elderly have accessed a 4th vaccine, and that seems to be it. We're in the middle of a federal election campaign and Covid is not even on the radar, despite us having the highest infection rates in the world! 

Winter will be without an up to date vaccine for most of us, and there's no plan for the future. 

As vaccine efficacy wanes, individual masking choices are about the only protection remaining. 

[kbutton]

19 minutes ago, Mom_to3 said:

I think I am living in a nightmare! It looks like there may be no vaccines for the US next fall except for those at the very highest risk. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/09/us-will-limit-covid-vaccines-to-high-risk-people-this-fall-if-congress-doesnt-approve-more-funding.html

That's insane. 

[Innisfree]

1 hour ago, Mom_to3 said:

I think I am living in a nightmare! It looks like there may be no vaccines for the US next fall except for those at the very highest risk. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/09/us-will-limit-covid-vaccines-to-high-risk-people-this-fall-if-congress-doesnt-approve-more-funding.html

 

 

 

At some point the ordinary funding which supports other vaccines should kick in, shouldn’t it? I’m not clear on why this is still different, though it’s probably obvious to anyone with a better understanding of the system. Surely it’s in insurance companies’ best interest to fund vaccines, just like for flu or polio or whatever. Is the difference that these new vaccines are still being developed?

 I could get a fourth dose now, based on age. I’ve been watching case numbers start to increase, but thinking I would wait until it looked like we were heading for a wave before I went for the next shot, anticipating that would be in the next month or two. If no more shots are coming in the fall, I may wait until then. 

[Kassia]

33 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

 

 I could get a fourth dose now, based on age. I’ve been watching case numbers start to increase, but thinking I would wait until it looked like we were heading for a wave before I went for the next shot, anticipating that would be in the next month or two. If no more shots are coming in the fall, I may wait until then. 

I'm struggling with the timing too.  We rarely go anywhere so we're at low risk but dd is flying home from college in a few weeks and then my other adult kids are coming home in about a month all from different locations with lots of exposure.  DH and I really wanted to wait until fall but now I'm worried that we'll get infected from one of the kids when they come home.

Can't believe we are still dealing with this.  😞 

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

I think I am living in a nightmare! It looks like there may be no vaccines for the US next fall except for those at the very highest risk. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/09/us-will-limit-covid-vaccines-to-high-risk-people-this-fall-if-congress-doesnt-approve-more-funding.html

 

 

 

Well, I better get my booster as soon as I can (I had JJ first, so I am eligible for another.)  This I do not understand.  There are plenty of people who didn't want the original dose, and there are even more who didn't want boosters.  Hopefully they come through for those of us who do.

[Mom_to3]

Hope of funding going down the drains...Biden calls to uncouple funding from Ukraine funding (another 33 billion...and we can't manage a measly 10 billion - which really should be much higher - for public health). Ukraine funding is urgent (and really, I do get that it is). Funding a continued covid response is ... apparently not. Of course, considering the talk and behavior by the admin that the pandemic is behind us, it's perhaps not surprising.

 

[Ting Tang]

54 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I'm struggling with the timing too.  We rarely go anywhere so we're at low risk but dd is flying home from college in a few weeks and then my other adult kids are coming home in about a month all from different locations with lots of exposure.  DH and I really wanted to wait until fall but now I'm worried that we'll get infected from one of the kids when they come home.

Can't believe we are still dealing with this.  😞 

It's too bad they can't isolate and test.  If you are high risk, maybe that is worth considering?   I know this is all a hassle.  My uncle has to do that everytime he goes somewhere for business because my aunt has MS.

[Laura Corin]

I'm assuming that vax from now on in the UK will be free for those who normally get a flu jab - high risk and over 65 - and available privately for a fee for others.

[Happy2BaMom]

10 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

Hope of funding going down the drains...Biden calls to uncouple funding from Ukraine funding (another 33 billion...and we can't manage a measly 10 billion - which really should be much higher - for public health). Ukraine funding is urgent (and really, I do get that it is). Funding a continued covid response is ... apparently not. Of course, considering the talk and behavior by the admin that the pandemic is behind us, it's perhaps not surprising.

 

Huh? He has repeatedly lobbied Covid funding from Congress and been denied. He was told by several GOP Congressional members that tying the Ukranian aid request to the Covid funding request would result in delay and possibly denial of that funding. He has warned that the US has had to stop critical Covid efforts and the consequences of the lack of funding. The WH pandemic response doctor, Dr. Ja, was on ABC on Sunday, discussing the pandemic and the need for a continuation of funding. Not sure how any of that qualifies as acting like the pandemic is behind us, esp when compared to what the other side is doing.

Besides being one-sided, your post is really pretty political.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Happy2BaMom

[Happy2BaMom]

13 hours ago, kbutton said:

That's insane. 

It's just a continuation of the fundamentalism that's sweeping America. Vaccines = bad. Media = bad. Public education = bad. Doctors = biased & untrustworthy. Fetus > woman 100% of the time = good.

[Dmmetler]

15 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

I think I am living in a nightmare! It looks like there may be no vaccines for the US next fall except for those at the very highest risk. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/09/us-will-limit-covid-vaccines-to-high-risk-people-this-fall-if-congress-doesnt-approve-more-funding.html

 

 

 

Hopefully private insurance will step up for those who have it, which will reserve public funded shots for the uninsured.

[Mom_to3]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

Hopefully private insurance will step up for those who have it, which will reserve public funded shots for the uninsured.

The argument that I have seen against that is that it is countries negotiating and buying from the manufacturers for vaccines and treatments...It is not clear to me why our government is not approaching it that way since it is clear that they can't reach a compromise on funding.

 

[Longtime Lurker]

16 hours ago, Kassia said:

Can't believe we are still dealing with this.  😞 

This is exactly what I keep thinking 😞

[kbutton]

Long covid

https://fortune.com/2022/05/08/surviving-pandemic-half-the-battle-long-covid-growing-public-health-crisis-could-affect-a-billion-in-just-a-few-years

Quote

Over three years, then, the chance of coming down with long COVID is 14%. If 14% of the world’s population, nearly 8 billion, comes down with long COVID—the math isn’t pretty, Chakravarty says.

“If the whole world was vaccinated tomorrow and we spent just three years ‘learning to live with COVID’ under the current [U.S. public health] strategy, we could have well over a billion people living with long COVID.”

 

[Ausmumof3]

School has been back one week and cases are back up to 4200 again today. SA Health just opened six long covid clinics. I guess I should feel positive that there’s a plan to fix us once they’ve finished infecting us?

Hard not to give in to a sense of frustration.

Even with triple vax long covid rates are around 9pc.

[bookbard]

4 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

. I guess I should feel positive that there’s a plan to fix us once they’ve finished infecting us?

Yes, the irony of it all . . . I still get people saying to me, 'oh is there still covid/is there covid here?' There's been such a media push of 'it's all over'.

Had my homeschool interview today and it went really well (and was super quick, 10m zoom meeting - had spoken to her on the phone before, and she'd already read thru my documents). So I think the official ok should be coming in the next two weeks which is good. She said they'd been inundated with families wanting to homeschool after the chaos of last term.

[KSera]

On 4/30/2022 at 2:54 AM, bookbard said:

Thank you, that thread was fascinating - and mindboggling. If what he says is correct, they didn't even test the liver for covid. How utterly bizarre. And the Israeli cases ignored along with the 40-something cases in India from the earlier covid wave, which were actually called 'covid induced hepatitis' . . . 

@Ausmumof3 I've continued following this hepatitis outbreak in kids and it continues to grow but also be elusive as to cause. It appears to me they really can't say anything one way or another about a link to covid, because they are only testing if the kids are actively positive for covid, and hepatitis from MIS-C, for example, occurs usually more than a month after having had covid. So the fact that they don't currently have covid doesn't tell us anything. It seems to me that the potential link to adenovirus could be investigated in part by doing some current sampling of equivalent populations not ill with this hepatitis and see if the rate positive for adenovirus is any different in the kids with hepatitis vs those without. So far, it appears they've only tested the sick kids, which doesn't tell much, since a positive for adenovirus is a pretty common finding in kids. They need to know if it's higher in these particular kids, or not.

All that said, MAN the conspiracy theory wackos are wacko these days when it comes to covid or other illness stuff. I was reading a couple new papers about this hepatits outbreak and then one click led to another and I inadvertently ended up in in conspiracy theory land on Twitter 😱, and it was truly frightening to see the level of delusion and complete lack of logic. There are ALL these people out there that are smugly self satisfied that they knew and predicted that the covid vaccine was going to cause something like this, and now they've been proven right. DESPITE THE FACT NONE OF THESE KIDS HAVE BEEN VACCINATED BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO YOUNG! When anyone points this out to them, they say it's because of "vaccine shedding" from their parents. When someone points out these are not live vaccines, they say they don't believe that and they're pretty sure they put live virus in there as well. And then everyone circles back around to how clearly the vaccine is the only explanation for these (unvaccinated) kids to be having hepatitis. It's really disturbing there are so many people who have lost touch with reality to this degree.

[prairiewindmomma]

Back in 2009, during a peak influenza year, there was also a huge regional outbreak of EV68 (an enterovirus).  It was associated with severe respiratory illness, and in my little neck of the woods, it affected the ped population. There were the rare and occasional kids who would end up with acute flaccid myelitis, which causes a kind of polio like paralysis. There were similar shenanigans with a lot of conspiracy theory wackos, delusion, lack of logic, false conclusions, and so on.  I think it was from a combination of fear, and a need to blame others so that that fear wouldn't touch them and theirs. 

Eventually they figured out what exactly was going on through testing, and as influenza season waned so did the regional outbreak, but there's been some degree of crazy going on for a long, long time (way before 2009 iykwim). 

[Corraleno]

Excerpt from an article in Science on the new Omicron variants BA.4, BA.5, and BA.2.12.1:

All three new variants have mutations that alter a key amino acid called L452, which may help explain their ability to dodge immunity. L452 is part of the receptor-binding domain, the part of the spike protein that locks onto cells, enabling infection. The domain is also a key target for protective antibodies.

The Delta variant that caused devastating surges around the world in 2021 had mutations in L452 as well, so many scientists have been watching this hot spot carefully, including immunologist Yunlong Richard Cao of Peking University. On 11 April, Cao says, he and his colleagues noticed a pattern: New Omicron sublineages from New York, Belgium, France, and South Africa all had changes in L452. “The independent appearance of four different mutations at the same site? That’s not normal,” Cao says. The researchers suspected it was the virus’ response to the high levels of immunity generated by the huge Omicron waves.

They immediately started to make copies of the spike protein based on the new sequences and test how well different antibodies could block those proteins, preventing them from binding to cells. They used sera from 156 vaccinated and boosted subjects, including some who had recovered from either BA.1 or severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), the coronavirus disease that caused a deadly global outbreak almost 2 decades ago. Like the South African team, they found that blood from patients who had been infected with BA.1 had only weak ability to neutralize BA.4 and BA.5; the same was true for BA.2.12.1. ...

...  Linfa Wang, a bat coronavirus researcher at the Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore ... notes ... that Omicron’s knack for immune escape is dramatic. Based on its immunological profile, it  “should be called SARS-3,” he says—an entirely distinct virus.

https://www.science.org/content/article/new-versions-omicron-are-masters-immune-evasion

 

[bookbard]

5 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Based on its immunological profile, it  “should be called SARS-3,” he says—an entirely distinct virus.

Whoa. That's - huge.

I saw that WHO is now investigating links between the hepatitis outbreak and Covid. A researcher has pointed out that areas with highest Covid numbers have highest hepatitis numbers. 

I also saw that the new thing to worry about is the link between Covid and aplastic anemia (bone marrow failure).

My other sister's family has now been hit with Covid via the school, at the worst possible time for upcoming specialist appts/hospitalisation and surgery appts. If they all got it at once at least they'd have a window of time, but I worry it'll take weeks to go through them. 

My neighbour's family had a bad run of Covid a few months back via the school, and now one of them has been put on a range of medications due to blood pressure and cholesterol issues. I have since read that Covid can really muck around with those two things. 

 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

My other sister's family has now been hit with Covid via the school, at the worst possible time for upcoming specialist appts/hospitalisation and surgery appts. If they all got it at once at least they'd have a window of time, but I worry it'll take weeks to go through them. 

Mine is not in school, but this is my worst fear right now. We have an upcoming major surgery that was moved up by the surgical team--we had planned a lot more padding into the schedule for cocooning beforehand. We're super careful, but we were strategically re-arranging appointments that we knew might offer exposure via other people being stupid (our orthodontist, for example!). 

[Ausmumof3]

On 5/12/2022 at 3:18 AM, KSera said:

@Ausmumof3 I've continued following this hepatitis outbreak in kids and it continues to grow but also be elusive as to cause. It appears to me they really can't say anything one way or another about a link to covid, because they are only testing if the kids are actively positive for covid, and hepatitis from MIS-C, for example, occurs usually more than a month after having had covid. So the fact that they don't currently have covid doesn't tell us anything. It seems to me that the potential link to adenovirus could be investigated in part by doing some current sampling of equivalent populations not ill with this hepatitis and see if the rate positive for adenovirus is any different in the kids with hepatitis vs those without. So far, it appears they've only tested the sick kids, which doesn't tell much, since a positive for adenovirus is a pretty common finding in kids. They need to know if it's higher in these particular kids, or not.

All that said, MAN the conspiracy theory wackos are wacko these days when it comes to covid or other illness stuff. I was reading a couple new papers about this hepatits outbreak and then one click led to another and I inadvertently ended up in in conspiracy theory land on Twitter 😱, and it was truly frightening to see the level of delusion and complete lack of logic. There are ALL these people out there that are smugly self satisfied that they knew and predicted that the covid vaccine was going to cause something like this, and now they've been proven right. DESPITE THE FACT NONE OF THESE KIDS HAVE BEEN VACCINATED BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO YOUNG! When anyone points this out to them, they say it's because of "vaccine shedding" from their parents. When someone points out these are not live vaccines, they say they don't believe that and they're pretty sure they put live virus in there as well. And then everyone circles back around to how clearly the vaccine is the only explanation for these (unvaccinated) kids to be having hepatitis. It's really disturbing there are so many people who have lost touch with reality to this degree.

Yeah I have been following it as well. Apparently a researcher in Japan now thinks it as well. 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/05/12/national/science-health/japanese-researcher-omicron-hepatitis-children/

I have noticed a lot more crazy on Twitter the last week or two - not sure if people are being unblocked since Elon bought in? Or maybe just coming back because they now support the company direction. But there’s more bad and less good information for sure.

Edited to add

the covid followed by adenovirus theory seems the scariest in many ways because it implies some kind of immune system deficit. Does that mean that other mild common childhood illnesses are going to start becoming more severe or having weird complications post covid as well? 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

the covid followed by adenovirus theory seems the scariest in many ways because it implies some kind of immune system deficit. Does that mean that other mild common childhood illnesses are going to start becoming more severe or having weird complications post covid as well? 

Now that's a theory I hadn't gone down the trail on yet. That's what happens with measles, though. Ugh, that would definitely be a bad outcome if covid infection is wiping out existing immune memory. Hopefully not, but that is a plausible thing.

I continue to see so much crazy on this with people who are SO smug because this "proves" to them the vaccine is the problem, again with no regard to the fact that almost none of these kids are vaccinated! But never a thought to covid itself potentially being implicated in any way. It's completely nonsensical, yet they think they're the smart ones. So bizarre.

[Ausmumof3]

26 minutes ago, KSera said:

Now that's a theory I hadn't gone down the trail on yet. That's what happens with measles, though. Ugh, that would definitely be a bad outcome if covid infection is wiping out existing immune memory. Hopefully not, but that is a plausible thing.

I continue to see so much crazy on this with people who are SO smug because this "proves" to them the vaccine is the problem, again with no regard to the fact that almost none of these kids are vaccinated! But never a thought to covid itself potentially being implicated in any way. It's completely nonsensical, yet they think they're the smart ones. So bizarre.

Yeah so weird. And when they realise the kids weren’t vaccinated they try to blame it on vaccine through the breastmilk (even though many of the kids are out of the age to have been breastfed after covid vaccination in the parents) or somehow the vaccine is shedding from the parents. I guess you see what you want to see.

Some of the zero covid people believe it messes up the immune system long term I think which is the worry. And the treatment for viral hepatitis versus immune mediated (? Not sure if I have that quite right) is basically opposite - treatment to wipe out a virus versus treatment to regulate the immune system - so it’s supercritical this gets figured out ASAP. 

[BeachGal]

What they are finding in the children with hepatitis is a particular adenovirus in more than 50% of the cases in the US and about 70% in the UK. Both countries have been trying to fully sequence the adenovirus and of the few they could, it was adenovirus 41. That particular adenovirus can cause autoimmune hepatitis but has only occurred before in immunocompromised children.

As of yet, they have not found the adenovirus in the biopsied livers, only blood, but there are some theories why that might be. Possibly, the liver is clearing the virus quickly but gets damaged in the process. This is only one of the theories. There are others.

At this point, nothing is known 100% but they are attempting to figure it out as quickly and accurately as possible.

[Ausmumof3]

27 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

What they are finding in the children with hepatitis is a particular adenovirus in more than 50% of the cases in the US and about 70% in the UK. Both countries have been trying to fully sequence the adenovirus and of the few they could, it was adenovirus 41. That particular adenovirus can cause autoimmune hepatitis but has only occurred before in immunocompromised children.

As of yet, they have not found the adenovirus in the biopsied livers, only blood, but there are some theories why that might be. Possibly, the liver is clearing the virus quickly but gets damaged in the process. This is only one of the theories. There are others.

At this point, nothing is known 100% but they are attempting to figure it out as quickly and accurately as possible.

But apparently the background rates for adenovirus are really high anyway and I haven’t seen a comparison. Adenovirus persists in a lot of  people so the fact they found it doesn’t really indicate that much. 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But apparently the background rates for adenovirus are really high anyway and I haven’t seen a comparison. Adenovirus persists in a lot of  people so the fact they found it doesn’t really indicate that much. 

Exactly. It may be related or it may turn out to be spurious. I’m really hoping someone is working on getting the current background rate in kids in a matched sample. That seems very doable and really important. 

[bookbard]

So I was chatting to an elderly woman today who has been in hospital with symptoms like a stroke, with a blood clot etc, but they couldn't work out what was going on. I asked if she'd had covid - yes, she'd tested positive on a RAT beforehand. But none of the medical staff even asked her about it, and she had no idea covid could be causing her blot clots and brain fog. She's going to bring it up with her doctor. 

[Ausmumof3]

edited

Edited May 13, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[popmom]

On 5/12/2022 at 11:29 PM, bookbard said:

So I was chatting to an elderly woman today who has been in hospital with symptoms like a stroke, with a blood clot etc, but they couldn't work out what was going on. I asked if she'd had covid - yes, she'd tested positive on a RAT beforehand. But none of the medical staff even asked her about it, and she had no idea covid could be causing her blot clots and brain fog. She's going to bring it up with her doctor. 

 

On 5/13/2022 at 12:25 AM, Ausmumof3 said:

 

I had an appointment with a cardiologist recently, and this came up because of my “thick” blood (long story). I asked about it because I had Omicron in January. He said they saw a lot of this (clots, heart issues) with the Delta variant but nothing to speak of since then. I don’t know what to think about that. I mean…I want that to be true. And I do believe my own specific issues have been going on since before the pandemic—not directly related to COVID. Your anecdotal reports are concerning but not surprising.

Edited May 14, 2022 by popmom
Deleted for privacy

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, popmom said:

 

I had an appointment with a cardiologist recently, and this came up because of my “thick” blood (long story). I asked about it because I had Omicron in January. He said they saw a lot of this (clots, heart issues) with the Delta variant but nothing to speak of since then. I don’t know what to think about that. I mean…I want that to be true. And I do believe my own specific issues have been going on since before the pandemic—not directly related to COVID. Your anecdotal reports are concerning but not surprising.

Yes, time period could have been right for a later Delta infection here. I also think vax reduces the risk of any long covid type stuff to some degree and rates are definitely higher. Do you mind removing your quote sorry? 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[BeachGal]

8 hours ago, KSera said:

Exactly. It may be related or it may turn out to be spurious. I’m really hoping someone is working on getting the current background rate in kids in a matched sample. That seems very doable and really important. 

Yes, I mentioned in my post that they aren’t positively sure what is causing these cases of hepatitis. They do have some clues and ideas, though. Pediatricians, liver specialists and health officials in the US and other countries are sharing what they are finding.

This is the most recent CDC statement:

https://www.cdc.gov/ncird/investigation/hepatitis-unknown-cause/overview-what-to-know.html

[BeachGal]

9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

But apparently the background rates for adenovirus are really high anyway and I haven’t seen a comparison. Adenovirus persists in a lot of  people so the fact they found it doesn’t really indicate that much. 

I am not trying to be argumentative, but the CDC does think adenovirus 41 might possibly indicate something because it can cause hepatitis in immunocompromised children. At this point, it’s considered a possible cause that they are investigating. It could turn out to be something else or a combination as well.
 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7118e1.htm

Adenovirus type 41 is primarily spread via the fecal-oral route and predominantly affects the gut. It is a common cause of pediatric acute gastroenteritis typically with diarrhea, vomiting and fever, often accompanied by respiratory symptoms (1). Adenovirus is recognized as a cause of hepatitis among immunocompromised children (2). It might be an underrecognized contributor to liver injury among healthy children (3); however, the magnitude of this relationship remains under investigation.

This cluster, along with recently identified possible cases in Europe (4–6), suggests that adenovirus should be considered in the differential diagnosis of acute hepatitis of unknown etiology among children. Clinicians and laboratorians should be aware of possible differences in adenovirus test sensitivity for different specimen types; tests using whole blood might be more sensitive than those using plasma. CDC is monitoring the situation closely to understand the possible cause of illness and identify potential efforts to prevent or mitigate illness. Enhanced surveillance is underway in coordination with jurisdictional public health partners. Clinicians are encouraged to report possible cases of pediatric hepatitis with unknown etiology occurring on or after October 1, 2021, to public health authorities for further investigation.

[Matryoshka]

10 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

I am not trying to be argumentative, but the CDC does think adenovirus 41 might possibly indicate something because it can cause hepatitis in immunocompromised children. At this point, it’s considered a possible cause that they are investigating. It could turn out to be something else or a combination as well.
 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7118e1.htm

Adenovirus type 41 is primarily spread via the fecal-oral route and predominantly affects the gut. It is a common cause of pediatric acute gastroenteritis typically with diarrhea, vomiting and fever, often accompanied by respiratory symptoms (1). Adenovirus is recognized as a cause of hepatitis among immunocompromised children (2). It might be an underrecognized contributor to liver injury among healthy children (3); however, the magnitude of this relationship remains under investigation.

This cluster, along with recently identified possible cases in Europe (4–6), suggests that adenovirus should be considered in the differential diagnosis of acute hepatitis of unknown etiology among children. Clinicians and laboratorians should be aware of possible differences in adenovirus test sensitivity for different specimen types; tests using whole blood might be more sensitive than those using plasma. CDC is monitoring the situation closely to understand the possible cause of illness and identify potential efforts to prevent or mitigate illness. Enhanced surveillance is underway in coordination with jurisdictional public health partners. Clinicians are encouraged to report possible cases of pediatric hepatitis with unknown etiology occurring on or after October 1, 2021, to public health authorities for further investigation.

Actually, while some kinds of adenovirus have been known to cause hepatitis in rare cases, adenovirus 41, the one they've found in (some, not all of) these kids, is not one of them.   It would have to be a worldwide simultaneous outbreak with no other symptoms we've detected, causing a side effect never seen with this particular adenovirus before.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease-outbreak-news/item/2022-DON376

"While adenovirus is currently one hypothesis as the underlying cause, it does not fully explain the severity of the clinical picture. Infection with adenovirus type 41, the implicated adenovirus type, has not previously been linked to such a clinical presentation."

Hm, I wonder if there's could be some other worldwide outbreak going on that is already known to cause MIS-C in kids....?  Occam's razor and all...  

Edited May 13, 2022 by Matryoshka

[BeachGal]

34 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Hm, I wonder if there's could be some other worldwide outbreak going on that is already known to cause MIS-C in kids....?  Occam's razor and all...  

Sure, Covid could be contributing somehow but they have not been able to find evidence of a prior infection in some of these children getting transplantations. One theory is that some kids were exposed to Covid but didn’t seroconvert and then something else came along and led to the hepatitis.
 

I have not seen anything suggesting that the sole and primary cause is Covid, though. I’d be interested in reading about it if the sources are trustworthy.

[KSera]

32 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Sure, Covid could be contributing somehow but they have not been able to find evidence of a prior infection in some of these children getting transplantations. One theory is that some kids were exposed to Covid but didn’t seroconvert and then something else came along and led to the hepatitis.
 

I have not seen anything suggesting that the sole and primary cause is Covid, though. I’d be interested in reading about it if the sources are trustworthy.

Have you seen any studies looking for antibodies rather than current infection? It seems most of what I have read is only looking at whether the kids have a current infection and other researchers are calling for antibody status to be looked into, but I haven’t seen that having happened yet. There actually were a sizeble number that were Covid positive, but not to the degree that were adenovirus positive. Adenovirus persists in the blood so much longer though, and in most cases they found very low viral loads of adenovirus (frequently too low to even sequence) where as it would typically be expected to see massive viral loads in order to have that kind of organ damage. If it’s adenovirus, this is definitely a new presentation. Just from population level serology, the chances that few of the kids had a past Covid infection is exceedingly low. I hope they will start getting something more definitive nailed down soon. 

[BeachGal]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

Actually, while some kinds of adenovirus have been known to cause hepatitis in rare cases, adenovirus 41, the one they've found in (some, not all of) these kids, is not one of them.   It would have to be a worldwide simultaneous outbreak with no other symptoms we've detected, causing a side effect never seen with this particular adenovirus before.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease-outbreak-news/item/2022-DON376

"While adenovirus is currently one hypothesis as the underlying cause, it does not fully explain the severity of the clinical picture. Infection with adenovirus type 41, the implicated adenovirus type, has not previously been linked to such a clinical presentation."

I stand corrected about adenovirus 41 not being linked to prior cases but they are now finding it in these cases and think it could be contributing in some way.

It would not have to be a worldwide, simultaneous outbreak if only certain cofactors combined with the adenovirus cause. It is probably somewhat complicated and not a single cause.

I know TWiV discussed this recently and I'm going to see what they have to say.

[BeachGal]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Have you seen any studies looking for antibodies rather than current infection? It seems most of what I have read is only looking at whether the kids have a current infection and other researchers are calling for antibody status to be looked into, but I haven’t seen that having happened yet. There actually were a sizeble number that were Covid positive, but not to the degree that were adenovirus positive. Adenovirus persists in the blood so much longer though, and in most cases they found very low viral loads of adenovirus (frequently too low to even sequence) where as it would typically be expected to see massive viral loads in order to have that kind of organ damage. If it’s adenovirus, this is definitely a new presentation. Just from population level serology, the chances that few of the kids had a past Covid infection is exceedingly low. I hope they will start getting something more definitive nailed down soon. 

I can't say for sure about antibodies but I thought I read something about T cells. Can't recall for sure.

I do not follow use Twitter but I have read that the UKHSA has put up information about the hepatitis cases there. The guy who handles hepatitis data in the UK sometimes posts information on the Covid19 Reddit board and he posted about these cases recently. Not a lot but he did mention that the UKHSA Twitter has more about this and iirc, I think he linked it. It was a few days ago if you want to check it out. You'd have to scroll down a bit.

I wouldn't be surprised if Covid is somehow involved but it might be complicated. One pediatrician -- and this is just one of his theories -- thinks these children might have been exposed to Covid and did or didn't seroconvert, which might have injured their immune system. Then they were exposed to an enteric adenovirus and their livers couldn't handle the adenovirus infections. There could be a genetic component that makes some children more vulnerable.

At this point, the CDC and other agencies seem to be trying to be as transparent as possible even if the information is not yet certain.

[KSera]

Virologists and infectious disease docs on Twitter have been a really good source of information about this. Just in case you aren’t aware, you don’t have to have an account there to read; I don’t have one either. there’s a bunch of new stuff this morning. I might start a new thread later, but here’s one with some updated data out of Europe from Helen Branswell:

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by KSera
Egregious typo

[kbutton]

9 hours ago, popmom said:

He said they saw a lot of this (clots, heart issues) with the Delta variant but nothing to speak of since then. 

We know someone with Omicron that had a pretty substantial PE. DH says that it seems like when there are fewer really sick people with pneumonia, there are also fewer clots, but he doesn't feel confident in asserting any conclusion.

Pneumonia from pretty much any cause is a risk factor for PE, so it might be tied more to severity than to which variant. 

[BeachGal]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

Virologists and infectious disease docs on Twitter have been a really good source of information about this. Just in case you aren’t aware, you don’t have to have an account there to read; I don’t have one either. there’s a bunch of new stuff this morning. I might start a new thread later, but here’s one with some updated data out of Europe from Helen Branswell:

 

My problem is often time. I go to the Covid-19 board to read the debates and discussions. That’s probably on Twitter, too.

A new thread here would be a good way to easily find new information. 👍🏼

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, BeachGal said:

Sure, Covid could be contributing somehow but they have not been able to find evidence of a prior infection in some of these children getting transplantations. One theory is that some kids were exposed to Covid but didn’t seroconvert and then something else came along and led to the hepatitis.
 

I have not seen anything suggesting that the sole and primary cause is Covid, though. I’d be interested in reading about it if the sources are trustworthy.

They haven’t done serology so they don’t know.

they know many don’t have current covid infection not whether they have had a previous one. Given that there’s some concept that covid damages the immune system in some people, it seems plausible to me that it could be that these kids are now responding to this virus in a way that previously immune compromised kids have.

 

[Ausmumof3]

BA4 and BA5 have just been upgraded to variants of concern by the European CDC according to BNO.