What do non-[alcohol] drinkers do to survive middle school years?

[SKL]

I was thinking about stuff that is going down at my kids' school, and it occurred to me that an adult beverage might be the go-to solution for many moms.  😛

I assume it's all typical stuff.  A girl who has some issues - ADHD, highly impulsive, way too "touchy," friends are wanting more distance ... she just got her first cell phone.  She is way over-doing the texts, very in your face, deciding so-and-so likes her, over-sharing, getting upset when people don't act as she expects ... some kids blocked her, some started talking behind her back.  My kids are in the middle of both sides of it, and I'm trying to be the smart parent giving advice they can actually apply without making things worse.  Ha!

I still say that 8th grade was the worst year of my life, by far.  I was hoping my kids' 8th grade year would be less horrible.  Ugh.

I don't know what I want here ... but if you have any wisdom or alternatives to alcohol (since I don't drink it), I'm all ears.

[TheReader]

So, I was drinking wine to cope. A glass a night. And then on weekends, two glasses a night. And then one night I drank a whole bottle and got insanely sick, and scared myself to death. So now I'm not drinking anymore. At all. 

So instead I drink hot tea. Or take a hot bath. Or clean. Or sew. Or watch mind-numbing TV while the rest of the family does other stuff (my DH and boys play video games together, so I give them permission to do that, and I watch ER reruns on Hulu). Or hot chocolate. Or even just an extra glass of chocolate milk. I color in various adult coloring books (grown-up, not "adult"). I read. I call my mom and talk to her. Or my dad. Or a friend. 

DH pulls weeds. 

Anything that might relax you can help, whatever that is. 

[Shoeless]

Meditation and Brene Brown. 

 

[Emba]

Having been a drinker in the past, and a non-drinker now, and having a child in middle school with some serious heavy stuff going on. . .I’ve not ever thought , wow, i need a drink. Because i know from experience that a drink isn’t going to help. I’m actually kind of mystified by “mom’s need wine” sort of memes because I can’t imagine how alcohol would improve things.

What I do: binge watch trashy reality shows (this also does not help,  actually), read novels or listen to audiobooks (not YA fiction or there’s the drama all over again),  cook, sew, go to the library and wander the stacks alone, reveling in relative silence, go shopping (if I go to thrift stores, retail therapy is cheaper), have tea (literal tea, the leaves of  plants soaked in water) with my mom friends who are going through the same things, go for walks alone, and pray. Oh boy do I pray.

Edited September 18, 2019 by emba56

[Frances]

Lots of vigorous exercise almost every day for everyone involved, parents and kids. And I always found that talking while doing other things together worked better than just talking. So talking while in the car or grocery shopping. Best of all was talking while playing ping pong or cooking together.

Middle school years here overlapped with major life/career changes for both myself and my husband, so time for myself was in extremely short supply. So I had to use it wisely and exercise seemed like the best choice. And tons of exercise for our son combined with outside activities where he had real, meaningful leadership roles and great mentors also really helped.

[moonflower]

I post here and read about other people's similar and not-so-similar experiences.

As far as the practical aspect of it, we don't let the kids own smartphones or social media accounts like snapchat, instagram, facebook, etc., and we don't have them either.  My oldest who has just started high school was mad, mad, mad.  ALL of her friends have these things, she is SO UNCOOL, I'm RUINING her LIFE, why can't she just be NORMAL, why is her mother so WEIRD, etc.

But I know 100% I am right on this issue so it doesn't bug me too much.  

I eat a lot of cookies.

[Frances]

Just now, moonflower said:

I post here and read about other people's similar and not-so-similar experiences.

As far as the practical aspect of it, we don't let the kids own smartphones or social media accounts like snapchat, instagram, facebook, etc., and we don't have them either.  My oldest who has just started high school was mad, mad, mad.  ALL of her friends have these things, she is SO UNCOOL, I'm RUINING her LIFE, why can't she just be NORMAL, why is her mother so WEIRD, etc.

But I know 100% I am right on this issue so it doesn't bug me too much.  

I eat a lot of cookies.

I very much admire you for not allowing social media or smartphones. I’m mystified by middle schools or even high schools that allow smartphones anywhere but locked away during school hours. But according to my many neighbors who are involved in public education, the parent here absolutely demand it.

I was fortunate that my son came of age when the social media/always connected craze was just beginning, so it wasn’t really much of an an issue. I certainly don’t envy parents today dealing with that and all of the screen options for younger kids. My husband was raised without TV, so we just continued with that when we got married. And contrary to the experience of some others, my now adult son has never owned a TV and rarely watches anything online.

[moonflower]

We also don't own a TV or streaming video service.  Oh, my kids are deprived.

 

[Annie G]

Middle school wasn’t the worst part of our parenting journey, so I had to develop coping strategies through high school (and sometimes college years). My favorites were caffeine, chocolate, and riding my bike on looong bike trails.  I was in much better shape when my kids were teenagers...these days my stress level is very low so I’m not putting 15 miles a day on my bike!  I have not given up caffeine and chocolate, my waistline isn’t what it was during those stressful years.

[Selkie]

I hate to scare anyone who hasn't been through it yet, but the middle school years were like a relaxing stroll through the park compared to the high school and young adult years. So yeah, it's a good idea to get those coping strategies in place early!😬

[gardenmom5]

yoga - it's very relaxing, and is healthy.

 

chocolate is good too - but not for my hips.

[vonfirmath]

My son is a 7th grader.

A lot of crying. Some yelling. Some escape reading.

 

[MaBelle]

Become an alcoholic drink drinker.

Seriously, I didn't drink when I was a homeschooling mom.  I drink now when I feel like it and when I don't feel like it I don't.

When I was babysitting my grand girls recently my son said "mom, there's some rum in the kitchen" and me "YOU THINK I'M GOING TO DRINK WHILE I'M BABYSITTING"   and my dil "my mom can't babysit UNLESS she's drinking!!"  (which I doubt, I know her mom!)

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by MaBelle

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

I hate to scare anyone who hasn't been through it yet, but the middle school years were like a relaxing stroll through the park compared to the high school and young adult years. So yeah, it's a good idea to get those coping strategies in place early!😬

 

Oh gosh.  Not wanting to hear this today.  It was a rough one.

I don't drink so here are my things

walking the dog

days off

putting the kids in hours of active things everyday

Chocolate    LOTS

Trashy tv, youtube, 

Salty and crunchy snacks. 

Hot slow drinks

Talking to other moms, to realize I am not the only one that is going through it.

crying.

[mommyoffive]

2 hours ago, moonflower said:

I post here and read about other people's similar and not-so-similar experiences.

As far as the practical aspect of it, we don't let the kids own smartphones or social media accounts like snapchat, instagram, facebook, etc., and we don't have them either.  My oldest who has just started high school was mad, mad, mad.  ALL of her friends have these things, she is SO UNCOOL, I'm RUINING her LIFE, why can't she just be NORMAL, why is her mother so WEIRD, etc.

But I know 100% I am right on this issue so it doesn't bug me too much.  

I eat a lot of cookies.

 

Agree with you on that.  Our kids don't have any of it either.  If they get phones sometime for safety it will not be smartphones. 

[LucyStoner]

More or less the same way I got through middle school the first time around:

Staying home and napping as much as possible.  Desserts.

We don’t allow smartphones until high school. That worked fine for our older son.  My nieces have them (obviously not my decision) and it’s a huge mistake.

Edited September 19, 2019 by LucyStoner

[J-rap]

3 hours ago, Frances said:

I very much admire you for not allowing social media or smartphones. I’m mystified by middle schools or even high schools that allow smartphones anywhere but locked away during school hours. But according to my many neighbors who are involved in public education, the parent here absolutely demand it.

I was fortunate that my son came of age when the social media/always connected craze was just beginning, so it wasn’t really much of an an issue. I certainly don’t envy parents today dealing with that and all of the screen options for younger kids. My husband was raised without TV, so we just continued with that when we got married. And contrary to the experience of some others, my now adult son has never owned a TV and rarely watches anything online.

I feel the same way.  My kids were probably the last generation that barely had that stuff even in high school.  I can't imagine how much more difficult it is now.  Also, my dh were I kind of lucky when we moved to our town in the middle of nowhere.  The only TV station that was available for free was public television, and we chose not to get cable.  (Didn't have time, anyway!)  So, that's how our kids were raised.  Of course we all enjoy shows on Netflix now, etc., but it's more a splurge rather than a habit.

[SKL]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's been easy to manage the phones with my own kids, but this other kid's grandma (who's raising the girl) must be really reeling.  She was holding off on buying the girl a phone, but decided to get one for her birthday, to the extreme delight of the kid.  The drama started immediately and has been non-stop, even on the days when Grandma has taken the phone away.  I feel badly for both of them.

One of my kids is good friends with this girl.  She has been trying to get the other kids (also her good friends / sister) to stop the talking behind her back.  (I have also warned my other daughter various times and took her phone away at least twice for her part in this.)  The kids try to rationalize why nothing is their fault bla bla bla.  This is putting everyone in a bitchy mood and spilling over into how they interact at home.  This in turn affects homework, sleep, etc.

I will try harder to get us all physically busy.  Today would have been a good day to go for a run or bike ride, but instead we had a big fuss that ruined the whole evening.  😕

[DesertBlossom]

My oldest 2 are 7th and 8th graders and I am just dipping my toes into this parenting teens thing and I'm terrified. The other day when I picked up Dd from school I asked how her day was, and with a wicked snarl she shot back, "it was just a school day." I had never heard that tone of voice before from this child.

For reals though, can I get some book recs? I need some solid advice about finding the balance between allowing teens to express their emotions because I am their "safe space" and not being steamrolled by selfish, rude little buggers. Minutes after acting like I was ruining her life by asking how her day was, she was asking for me to take her shopping. I think I got whiplash.

[Garga]

Milk duds. Locked bathroom door. IPad. Netflix. All at the same time.  

[Arcadia]

Double shot espresso 

Ice-cream (preferably green tea or red/adzuki beans flavor)

Dark chocolate or Ferrero Rocher

Rearranging furniture

Rock music 

My mom’s “remedy” was to go back to work as a hospital RN. Hospital drama was always more drama than teen drama from me or my brother.

[WendyLady]

Chocolate chip cookies. 

8th and 9th grade were the pit of despair for all 3 of my girls. Things got so much better from there.  For all of us.  Later high school what a delightful skip through the tulips compared to 8th/9th. I can’t imagine going through it with 2 at once.  

My mantra was “if she’s not crying, you’re not trying”. Just kidding! But it did feel like I was the bad guy a lot, and there were lots of tears. Lots of emotions.....  It’s like the “I do it myself” toddler stage only so much worse. Don’t engage! Find a way to cultivate your connection away from home. (Hiking, movies, ice cream, breakfast out, ceramics, anything that gets you out of the war zone and spending time not focused on the issues) 

I hope tomorrow is a better day.

Edited September 19, 2019 by WendyLady

[ktgrok]

12 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, there's a reason there are so many jokes about moms and wine lol.

When my oldest was in the middle school and high school years.......................................I was pregnant much of that time.  So, no alcohol.  But, there were things that were said and done by both of us that, well, just shouldn't have been.  If there's ever a recipe for disaster, it's a pregnant mom, 1.5 yr old baby, and hormonal high school freshman.  

So, that's probably not helpful beyond, just keep on keeping on.

Oh! BTDT! Probably not a lot of us in that club. I had 13 yr old, a 2 yr old, and was pregnant. 

It was not pretty. 

[G5052]

Yes, those were indeed hard years. Lots going on outside of school that made it rough too.

My son actually had a harder time than my daughter. He struggled with how to approach school and keep focused like never before. It lasted about two years, and then everything got better. Once he told me that he lost who he was during that period. I guess that describes it.

My daughter withdrew emotionally, and it was years before I could connect with her consistently.

But yes, it passed. They both graduated from high school and are now commuter college students. They know who they are and manage their time well. No meltdowns other than a few academic frustrations. 

 

[historically accurate]

Yesterday, I sat down to do math with my freshman; I opened the answer book and said, "We need to go over Lesson 11. You got a few wrong." in what I thought was a perfectly normal tone of voice. She literally hissed at me, burst into tears and ran out of the room screaming, "THIS is why I hate doing math with you." It went downhill from there with me finally shouting at her, "Fine, you have Khan & access to Mr. D Math. You can figure it out yourself!"

I went for a walk, finished my novel, and sent her to Tae Kwon Do class with her father. I also ate chocolate chips straight out of the freezer.  

[ktgrok]

Middle schoolers are honestly my least favorite form of people, with 1 yr olds a close second. 

My first husband grew up in a house that was on the major walkway for kids going to the middle school, and when we were first dating I was often over there and would either be driving through that pack of kids or watching them from the house. It was so Lord of the Flies it was terrifying. Refuse to move out of the way of the car, calling each other names, swearing, etc. The high schoolers are so much more polite. 

And I know I was the same way. I never swore as much in my life as I did in middle school. I also wore more makeup then than the rest of my life, used more hair products, and was absolutely miserable in so many ways. My mother says my favorite obnoxious saying was, "I realize that" said with an eye roll. 

When I had a kid hit that age I actually called my mom and apologized. But yeah, they act like jerks because they feel miserable. 

[moonflower]

I remember being miserable in 8th grade especially.  There were many factors, but the one I remember most acutely was that I was very slightly chubby.  For reference, I was 5' 1 1/2" and 116 lb (I remember weigh-in day vividly, obviously), a weight I will never see again, but my "friends" were all sticks.  So this is how insane middle schoolers are: I had read all the Sweet Valley Twins and Sweet Valley High books in about 2nd-5th grade, and the twins in those books, once they are in high school, are some height I don't remember and a size 6.  I was sure this meant that I was not allowed to be larger than a size 6 in order to be cool.  I also had no idea how junior sizing worked, so I thought a 5 was okay but a 7 was too large.  I insisted that my mom buy all of my pants at a size 6 or smaller, and mostly this meant size 5s (as I was in junior styles).  How my mom never said, "hey, let me look at the waist and fit of those before I buy them" is beyond me but she didn't.

Well, I wasn't a 6.  Maybe in some women's brands, but not in the "cool" teen brands, and I sure as heck wasn't a junior's 5.  So my pants were so so so tight around the waist, where my bit of pudge was, that I was miserable all day all the time, and I was sure both that everyone knew they were tight and that they were laughing at me in the halls or after school or something.

Isn't that crazy?  

anyway, I have relayed this story to DD14 many times (and I always always check the fit of her jeans).  I have told her that obviously no one cared what size my pants said in the waistband, or that they were tight, or laughed at me for it.  I've told her that almost everyone spends junior high feeling uncool and socially awkward and pretending they are fine, just like I pretended with the pants situation, and it is all absurd.

Of course she doesn't believe me.  "But Mom, you weren't very cool.  I could be cool if only my family weren't so weird."  etc.

Edited September 19, 2019 by moonflower

[SKL]

You guys are making me feel better (if a little more scared).  🙂

[SKL]

If it were just tears, I think I could handle it better.  At least with tears, there is some softness vs. the rigidness of certain individuals here.

Also, isn't it funny how Person A starts a fight, and then believes with all her heart that she is an attack victim?

I am not too bad at walking away, but I am not the only adult here, and I can't control what other people do.  Also I can't walk away once other adults get involved.  And we are so not on the same page.  Ugh....

[Sneezyone]

14 hours ago, Frances said:

I very much admire you for not allowing social media or smartphones. I’m mystified by middle schools or even high schools that allow smartphones anywhere but locked away during school hours. But according to my many neighbors who are involved in public education, the parent here absolutely demand it.

I was fortunate that my son came of age when the social media/always connected craze was just beginning, so it wasn’t really much of an an issue. I certainly don’t envy parents today dealing with that and all of the screen options for younger kids. My husband was raised without TV, so we just continued with that when we got married. And contrary to the experience of some others, my now adult son has never owned a TV and rarely watches anything online.

 

Kids need the phones to do quick research in class. Many teachers in our district use google classroom to share assignments. The school also pushes updates to students via Remind. And, heaven forbid there should be an incident on campus, kids need to be able to reach their parents...at all times.

The drama was THICK in MS for DD but none so far for DS. 7th grade was the worst year here and things have gotten progressively better each year. DD guards her privacy very carefully online, posting 1-2 selfies a year. She was burned and now avoids it like the plague.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

 

Kids need the phones to do quick research in class, many teachers in our district use google classroom to share assignments, the school also pushes updates to students via Remind. And, heaven forbid there should be an incident on campus, kids need to be able to reach their parents...at all times.

It is true the school asks the kids to use their phones at times.  A few weeks ago, my kid complained that she couldn't do the compass activity because I had too many limits on her iphone during the school day.  Oh well, write me up in the bad mom ledger.

They don't actually need a phone, but I and many other moms provide them for reasons of convenience.  A big one is the ability to contact a parent/caregiver when the timing of a ride home is uncertain.

My kid who challenges me most at home, also sends me loving texts regularly.  It might be sustaining me at times.  😛

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

It is true the school asks the kids to use their phones at times.  A few weeks ago, my kid complained that she couldn't do the compass activity because I had too many limits on her iphone during the school day.  Oh well, write me up in the bad mom ledger.

They don't actually need a phone, but I and many other moms provide them for reasons of convenience.  A big one is the ability to contact a parent/caregiver when the timing of a ride home is uncertain.

My kid who challenges me most at home, also sends me loving texts regularly.  It might be sustaining me at times.  😛

 

Yes, I get random texts at lunch and after school, reminders about game times, etc. In DDs classes, they also use their phones like a ‘buzzer’ when they play review/quiz games in class. I don’t know exactly how this works. Sometimes cheer practice ends early so I get a call about that. There are lots of reasons. I think there’s a certain amount of trial and error involved in having these devices. DD seems to have gotten the worst habits out of her system.

[SKL]

One of my kids is way better than the other with the phone.  Same phone, same mom, same school.  Different kids.

[OH_Homeschooler]

1 hour ago, moonflower said:

I remember being miserable in 8th grade especially.  There were many factors, but the one I remember most acutely was that I was very slightly chubby.  For reference, I was 5' 1 1/2" and 116 lb (I remember weigh-in day vividly, obviously), a weight I will never see again, but my "friends" were all sticks.  So this is how insane middle schoolers are: I had read all the Sweet Valley Twins and Sweet Valley High books in about 2nd-5th grade, and the twins in those books, once they are in high school, are some height I don't remember and a size 6.  I was sure this meant that I was not allowed to be larger than a size 6 in order to be cool.  I also had no idea how junior sizing worked, so I thought a 5 was okay but a 7 was too large.  I insisted that my mom buy all of my pants at a size 6 or smaller, and mostly this meant size 5s (as I was in junior styles).  How my mom never said, "hey, let me look at the waist and fit of those before I buy them" is beyond me but she didn't.

Well, I wasn't a 6.  Maybe in some women's brands, but not in the "cool" teen brands, and I sure as heck wasn't a junior's 5.  So my pants were so so so tight around the waist, where my bit of pudge was, that I was miserable all day all the time, and I was sure both that everyone knew they were tight and that they were laughing at me in the halls or after school or something.

Isn't that crazy?  

 

I remember that damn size 6 too. "They were a perfect size 6." I think some variation of that appeared in every single book.

I believe I read that in recent reprints, the girls are now a "perfect size 4." 

As far as the debate about smartphones, I don't know that smartphones really make middle school worse. It was miserable when I was that age and there were no smartphones then. There were landlines, and kids could be every bit as brutal using them as they can be with smartphones. Or slumber parties, where some girls were only invited so they could be the target of ridicule all night. Or bullies on the bus, where kids were gathered without true adult supervision. But I suppose people are always going to put some blame on the technology du jour. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by OH_Homeschooler

[SKL]

True, bullying didn't require technology when I was in 8th grade, but it consumed my life 24/7 nevertheless.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

As far as the debate about smartphones, I don't know that smartphones really make middle school worse. It was miserable when I was that age and there were no smartphones then. There were landlines, and kids could be every bit as brutal using them as they can be with smartphones. Or slumber parties, where some girls were only invited so they could be the target of ridicule all night. Or bullies on the bus, where kids were gathered without true adult supervision. But I suppose people are always going to put some blame on the technology du jour. 

 

THIS. The devices support good habits and magnify bad ones. They really are an important communication tool in case of emergency too. DD used hers this year (UGH!!!) to Uber to school after missing the bus! I applauded her resourcefulness while also raging at the unnecessary expense and risk.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Sneezyone

[WendyLady]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

If it were just tears, I think I could handle it better.  At least with tears, there is some softness vs. the rigidness of certain individuals here.

Also, isn't it funny how Person A starts a fight, and then believes with all her heart that she is an attack victim?

I am not too bad at walking away, but I am not the only adult here, and I can't control what other people do.  Also I can't walk away once other adults get involved.  And we are so not on the same page.  Ugh....

I started to write it in my earlier post but the words didn't work well.  My second dd was an angry kid.  She was an angry toddler and an angry teen. She seems to have smoothed her ruffled feathers as she's nearing the end of college, but she still has a prickly personality.  When she was little, if she accidentally hurt someone and I would say "say you're sorry" she would yell "I didn't do it on purpose!!!!!"  She was an angry bear in middle school and in to high school.  And especially if she did something she didn't mean to do, she would get mad, storm off and make it seem like she was the victim.  I don't have a real answer to fix it. 

I would encourage her to have a good snack and then spend some time in her room.  I helped her set up her own study area in her own space as she could not handle more family time at night.  Talking to her now, I can see that she seems to need a lot of down time to recharge from dealing with people all the time.  I don't really think she's an introvert, but has that same need to recharge after being out at school or work.  Having space from others, including other adults could be helpful.  Too many voices trying to help dd figure things out would have put her into a terrible place - anger, fighting back, mean words, no resolution...  Somehow finding a way to be on the same page with the other adults to not engage may really help things.  

My dd is a strong personality and I encouraged her to make her own choices where ever I could to help her feel some autonomy.  But I could not push her in a certain direction - that was a recipe for going the complete opposite way...  Having a set of rules that didn't change helped (phone rules, car rules, time to be back home rules, etc) things that were set for all of the kids, not just her.  She also needed lots of forewarning for upcoming family activities.  She is not great with change, and was especially annoyed with family stuff that took her away from her own things.  

Anyway, anger is tougher than tears, you are right.  Though sometimes my angry kid would cry out of frustration, not sadness.... (so softness there!)  Anyway, just commiserating a little, though I'm sure it's not the same situation.  Sorry!!

[SKL]

23 minutes ago, WendyLady said:

I started to write it in my earlier post but the words didn't work well.  My second dd was an angry kid.  She was an angry toddler and an angry teen. She seems to have smoothed her ruffled feathers as she's nearing the end of college, but she still has a prickly personality.  When she was little, if she accidentally hurt someone and I would say "say you're sorry" she would yell "I didn't do it on purpose!!!!!"  She was an angry bear in middle school and in to high school.  And especially if she did something she didn't mean to do, she would get mad, storm off and make it seem like she was the victim.  I don't have a real answer to fix it. 

I would encourage her to have a good snack and then spend some time in her room.  I helped her set up her own study area in her own space as she could not handle more family time at night.  Talking to her now, I can see that she seems to need a lot of down time to recharge from dealing with people all the time.  I don't really think she's an introvert, but has that same need to recharge after being out at school or work.  Having space from others, including other adults could be helpful.  Too many voices trying to help dd figure things out would have put her into a terrible place - anger, fighting back, mean words, no resolution...  Somehow finding a way to be on the same page with the other adults to not engage may really help things.  

My dd is a strong personality and I encouraged her to make her own choices where ever I could to help her feel some autonomy.  But I could not push her in a certain direction - that was a recipe for going the complete opposite way...  Having a set of rules that didn't change helped (phone rules, car rules, time to be back home rules, etc) things that were set for all of the kids, not just her.  She also needed lots of forewarning for upcoming family activities.  She is not great with change, and was especially annoyed with family stuff that took her away from her own things.  

Anyway, anger is tougher than tears, you are right.  Though sometimes my angry kid would cry out of frustration, not sadness.... (so softness there!)  Anyway, just commiserating a little, though I'm sure it's not the same situation.  Sorry!!

It does sound similar.

Without getting into too much personal detail, an adult housemate's personality is an impediment to applying the recommended parenting strategies.  I do believe my kids can learn to deal with her, just like I did; but it requires rational thought, which is sometimes in short supply.

[Momto6inIN]

Prayer, spoonfuls of Nutella, and remembering that even when they push me away and seem like they hate me, what they really want deep down is to be drawn closer and for me to really *see* them and try to connect with them anyway