Virginia public colleges and universities; also, academic ratings of schools

[Innisfree]

I'd be grateful for any insight into what recent students think of any of these schools.

Dd prefers to stay in Virginia to keep costs down. She likes the sound of larger universities, especially Virginia Tech, because of all the programs and opportunities available. She wants classes that challenge her, but not a pressure cooker atmosphere. She does not want a party school, and is saying she won't apply to JMU because she's read it has that reputation. But no one can count on getting into UVA or W&M (she's not sure she wants to go to either, anyway, because pressure), and even though her stats would suggest she could easily get into Tech, nothing about this process is certain...

So any experience with JMU, George Mason, Mary Washington or others would be welcome.

Additionally, any help interpreting academic ratings on sites like Niche would be great. How would you expect the difference between an "A" school and a "B" school to manifest in actual life? How much attention would you pay to that?

What she wants is to have lots of opportunities, classes that challenge her, but not an atmosphere of stress and pressure.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Innisfree

[Sneezyone]

Following.

[RootAnn]

I am not big on rankings bit I do like to have my kid know more than what is in the campus brochures & spiels and delve deeper than a college visit.

Re:  Niche. I'm a bit confused how the ratings for "party scene" are determined. Is an A rockin parties whenever you like or an A that most people don't end up with alcohol poisoning?

And dorms - is the availability of getting the one you like, age/condition, or location?

I wonder if they grade parking. That always seems to be a big contention point. Would that be under Campus or Student Life?

I wouldn't put much stock in the actual letter grade, but the comments on Niche would be helpful, IMO. I find that Reddit is actually a good source for what a campus is like for a student. Follow it for a year to see what students ask about, complain about, and post about. It skews negative bit if you follow a few different colleges who have reddit pages, you get a feel for one subtype of the population.

I don't know anything about social media, but is there a way to follow Instagram accounts for certain programs/departments at each college?

As a parent, I found the crime log & safety reports interesting reading across different campus types/sizes. 

On an academic front, check out research being done by the college, papers presented at conferences, make-up of the groups that are involved in those. If your kid is interested in certain programs, see if a student already in that program will correspond with your kid.

I put more stock in the above interactions than in any type of rankings. (Niche is way out of date for the college my daughter is at, for example. I don't know when they last updated it, but it appears at least 4 years out of date on undergrad population.)

[GoodGrief]

My stepbrother's daughter graduated from JMU last year and has gone on to a masters program in occupational health. Not sure if she partied or not (I'm guessing maybe 🙂 ), but I think her academics were fine.

An ancient anecdote, but I briefly "dated", long-distance, a guy from Virginia Tech after meeting him in another state. Called on his birthday to find he was celebrating his 24th birthday with 24 beers. Definitely partiers there too. I think Va Tech is in an awesome location.

Honestly, I think most schools will have a party scene, but you can always find like-minded people who avoid that.

[Innisfree]

Thank you both. Taking notes.

[Mom0012]

I don’t know how to interpret the niche ratings, but I like reading the school newspapers to get an idea about the feel of the school. They are usually online, but I always look for one whenever we do visits.

I attended George Mason many years ago and it was largely a commuter school. I know they have really built the campus up and have a lot more residential students, but there is still a large population of commuters. 

I visited Mary Washington with my son and William and Mary with my daughter. Both are beautiful campuses. I really like the location of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg. Classes seemed small and when we visited the historic preservation department, the professors we met seemed very involved and helpful. MW also gives automatic scholarships based on test scores (or they did as of a couple of years ago). William & Mary is pretty but is basically in a swamp. It poured the day we were there and we were literally standing in two inch deep water on the sidewalk. When our tour guide said, “Well, it an issue but it is swampland.”, I suddenly knew why I had never really liked W&M, lol! Very serious students though and I know people that absolutely love it. My dd says the main negative she reads about it is the social scene, or lack thereof. My SIL went there and felt it was a bad choice for her because everyone there was a top student and she fell in the middle and was unable to go on to graduate school because she didn’t do well enough. She did make lifelong friends there, though.

Take a look at Christopher Newport maybe? They also give scholarship money to students who participate in the leadership and/or honors program. Usually about $5,000 - $10,000 a year. The campus is very pretty and bright and in a nice location. My ds is there and has been happy. I had never heard of it until a few years ago and then once I started hearing about it, it was nothing but positive reviews. The classes are smallish and discussion based. The academics have been challenging for my ds, but definitely not overwhelming or a pressure cooker. Their honors program allows you to streamline the general education requirements and knock them out quickly so that you can get to the upper level classes earlier. My dd is going to apply for it.

ETA: Some dorms at W&M and UMW are not air conditioned. Same with UVA. My kids both have pretty bad allergy issues so that is something I really pay attention to.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Mom0012

[Farrar]

I feel like some of the stats are the best thing about Niche. You can really easily see what everyone is actually studying at a school, for example. 

I assume the ratings are borderline meaningless.

One you didn't mention... I've heard University of Richmond is homeschool friendly and gives good aid. And speaking of Richmond, I know VCU is second tier, but they do have some good programs.

[Chris in VA]

Ds went to VCU for cinema/film. Dd is at JMU for Music Education. 

I think what you want to study should be the first thing you look at when choosing a college. Dd could have had her pick, but only JMU had the size to have a decent orchestra/music ed program, and it had an excellent reputation in that area as well. VA Tech is gorgeous, prestigious, and a great school--but didn't have a good program in her major. Same with W&M and UVA. VCU was ok, but we hated Richmond and the campus is ugly, downtown and has crappy dorms (although they have been renovated so that may be different now). Agreeing with other posters that you can find partiers ANYwhere. It is a personal choice not to party. We love JMU--the campus is really pretty, it is set in a friendly, mid-sized town (so there are options for shopping and plenty of off-campus housing), the vibe is friendly and she has had excellent professors (but she takes 10 classes, and they are mostly all music or education related at this point). A LOT of people are from the Northern VA area, but that area is racially diverse, and people come from many different places there, so it didn't bother us. There is a great deal of community involvement--2 examples--There is Duke Ukes program (it's something like that name...) where the music ed students hold a day long workshop teach ukelele to city kids, with great joy! And when an apt building housing mainly students burned down last year (student error), the whole community came together, both on campus (they were allowed more time for assignments, offered dorm housing, etc) and in the town (fundraiser started, people donated items, restaurants gave certificates, etc). Everybody cared. It was really amazing. 

We looked at Christopher Newport and I have to disagree a bit with the previous poster--Newport News is NOT a "nice city"--it is awful, in my opinion. The campus itself is gorgeous, with tons of columned, marble-floored buildings, lovely gardening, etc. The music dept was very friendly but they only graduated one viola the year we looked, and that was too small for dd. Students are required to live on campus, which we think, honestly, is partly due to safety concerns. They are also allowed cars Freshman year, again, because the school doesn't want kids milling around "downtown" because it is not a very safe area. My dd's best friend goes there and loves it, so I think it depends, again, on the program. 

 

[Innisfree]

Thanks again, this is all helpful. 

Can anyone else speak to the degree of academic pressure at any of these schools? (Thanks, Mom0012.) I know this is experienced differently by different students, but does it seem more intense at particular schools, or is this really just impossible to measure? Has anyone gotten a sense for it by visiting?

I guess, to get a little more specific: if a student's stats put them above, maybe even well above, the middle range accepted at a given school, would you expect that to mean classes might be too easy? We have that tension where we're looking for "just right", neither too easy not too stressful. High academic ability, but enough pressure is already applied internally. We don't need more. But then there's a current CC class which is really frustrating dd because she knows how to do what they are teaching already, and because she's at that level now, she isn't getting any help with learning more. We don't want that experience repeating itself over and over in college.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Innisfree

[chiguirre]

I know a young man who graduated from UMW two years ago. He enjoyed his time there as a finance major and did an exchange semester in Spain. His parents (dh's cousin and her husband) had prepaid tuition so he needed to stay in VA, but he has ADHD and didn't have the grades and test scores to go to UVA or W&M. His parents were freaking out a bit about his choices but it worked out well in the end and he's now working as a real estate agent which was his goal since it's his parents' business and owns his own home.

My parents live in Williamsburg and my mom worked at W&M as a receptionist for almost 20 years until she retired last year. She loved the location but that's because she loved walking down Duke of Gloucester street at lunch every day to people watch. The campus floods with a very heavy rain, but there are pathways to avoid the worst of it if you know the campus well. What is unique about W&M is that it is smack dab in the middle of a huge tourist area. There are modern buildings further away from the historic area, but campus is right next to the heavily touristed zone. Even the food places tend to cater to tourists more than students. It's very different than being in an area where the school is the largest institution and dominates at least the area right around campus. 

My parents shop in Newport News every week. They're in their 80s (yes, my mom worked all this time) and pretty cautious about where they go. Newport News has a lot of inexpensive housing because it's a huge port and the Navy dominates everything. There are lots of enlisted families in the area. It's not a pretty college town, but the whole area isn't awful, imho. It's just suburban sprawl with relatively down market shopping choices. 

[Chris in VA]

19 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

<snip>

My parents shop in Newport News every week. They're in their 80s (yes, my mom worked all this time) and pretty cautious about where they go. Newport News has a lot of inexpensive housing because it's a huge port and the Navy dominates everything. There are lots of enlisted families in the area. It's not a pretty college town, but the whole area isn't awful, imho. It's just suburban sprawl with relatively down market shopping choices. 

My opinion of Newport News is admittedly biased. Ds spent time there in a really awful, gang-infested rehab with incompetent staff. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Chris in VA

[Mom0012]

3 hours ago, Chris in VA said:

Ds went to VCU for cinema/film. Dd is at JMU for Music Education. 

I think what you want to study should be the first thing you look at when choosing a college. Dd could have had her pick, but only JMU had the size to have a decent orchestra/music ed program, and it had an excellent reputation in that area as well. VA Tech is gorgeous, prestigious, and a great school--but didn't have a good program in her major. Same with W&M and UVA. VCU was ok, but we hated Richmond and the campus is ugly, downtown and has crappy dorms (although they have been renovated so that may be different now). Agreeing with other posters that you can find partiers ANYwhere. It is a personal choice not to party. We love JMU--the campus is really pretty, it is set in a friendly, mid-sized town (so there are options for shopping and plenty of off-campus housing), the vibe is friendly and she has had excellent professors (but she takes 10 classes, and they are mostly all music or education related at this point). A LOT of people are from the Northern VA area, but that area is racially diverse, and people come from many different places there, so it didn't bother us. There is a great deal of community involvement--2 examples--There is Duke Ukes program (it's something like that name...) where the music ed students hold a day long workshop teach ukelele to city kids, with great joy! And when an apt building housing mainly students burned down last year (student error), the whole community came together, both on campus (they were allowed more time for assignments, offered dorm housing, etc) and in the town (fundraiser started, people donated items, restaurants gave certificates, etc). Everybody cared. It was really amazing. 

We looked at Christopher Newport and I have to disagree a bit with the previous poster--Newport News is NOT a "nice city"--it is awful, in my opinion. The campus itself is gorgeous, with tons of columned, marble-floored buildings, lovely gardening, etc. The music dept was very friendly but they only graduated one viola the year we looked, and that was too small for dd. Students are required to live on campus, which we think, honestly, is partly due to safety concerns. They are also allowed cars Freshman year, again, because the school doesn't want kids milling around "downtown" because it is not a very safe area. My dd's best friend goes there and loves it, so I think it depends, again, on the program. 

 

Okay, so I know there are areas of NN that aren’t nice. However, I have never actually seen those areas in all my trips down to CNU and much of the surrounding area is nice. There’s a B&N, a Costco, a Target, a Lidl, and a lot of clean, bright northern-VA type stores about 10 minutes from the campus. There are shops right across from campus that the students go to frequently. There is a 5 mile hiking trail. The Mariner’s Museum is right next to the campus. There is a hospital right near the campus.  When we go, we stay at a Holiday Inn Express, literally less than 5 minutes from the campus and the place is brand new and the people that work there are friendly and nice. I’ve also stayed at the Hampton Inn near the B&N, which is a few minutes farther away.

My ds has seen the rougher area because I think he and my dh got a bit turned around, but he knows not to go in that direction. I honestly wasn’t even thinking about it and it never concerned us or weighed in on our decision to send our ds there. I was just talking to my dd about what a nice area it is when we were deciding where she would apply. Plus, you are very close to the beach and not far from Williamsburg. I completely forgot there even was a bad area.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Mom0012

[LJPPKGFGSC]

Mary Washington is fabulous!  My son attends as a commuter student, and we are so lucky to live nearby.

You can find kids who party, as you would anywhere.  But plenty don't.  There is enough to do on campus.  And with Fredericksburg being a medium-sized town, there are enough things to do off campus if there is something special you enjoy.

UMW is not top ranked, like UVA and Tech, but there is challenge there, you might need to find it for yourself.  There are certainly harder majors, and harder classes within your major if you want to spend time finding them.  They have an honors program.  I don't know too much about it, but my son is enjoying his one honors class a bunch.  Mary Washington is a small enough school that you should be able to form a relationship with the professors in your major.  They will help you to seek out challenges, if your class seems to be review.

Both the dorms and the dining halls at Mary Washington have a bad reputation from the on-campus students.  

[1shortmomto4]

Depending upon the field of study, George Mason may not be what your dd is looking for if she wants a challenge.  They are very big on the Integrated Studies degree and even if you choose a more traditional degree plan, they do their best to sway you or make it very difficult by adding more classes than what are required if you were to take the IS road.  My dd graduated in May (she transferred in after receiving her AA from NOVA) and she met both commuters and residential students-including an RA who shared some very wild stories about activities happening on campus.  Reading the crime logs/reports from the university can help but trust me, they don't report everything that should be reported (my family is in LE so trust me on this) Academically (my dd is an education major - she will earn her Masters in the Spring), most of her IS courses were less than disappointing - check out their course listings and descriptions and you'll quickly get a snapshot about the courses - lots of wellness courses and there are no limits to how many you take.  Social justice courses, and the list goes on.  In her courses required for her field and state license requirements, the course descriptions say one thing but the professors teach completely different content - even at the Masters level.  Thus far, two professors gave her an A- versus an A because they didn't agree with her POV.  They charge a lot of fees - parking and activity - but then charge the student to use/participate in the activity.  They do have robots rolling around the campus delivering food.  And apparently they have great opportunities for internships in DC depending upon your degree field - but not so much in the Education department. 

If you are looking for money to attend school because your child is smart - don't bother.  If your child has no money, qualifies as an independent, and is from a foreign country you most likely get money.  A lot of parents in VA are finding that their kids are qualifying and receiving far better assistance outside of VA versus staying instate.  

[Mom0012]

3 hours ago, Innisfree said:

Thanks again, this is all helpful. 

Can anyone else speak to the degree of academic pressure at any of these schools? (Thanks, Mom0012.) I know this is experienced differently by different students, but does it seem more intense at particular schools, or is this really just impossible to measure? Has anyone gotten a sense for it by visiting?

I guess, to get a little more specific: if a student's stats put them above, maybe even well above, the middle range accepted at a given school, would you expect that to mean classes might be too easy? We have that tension where we're looking for "just right", neither too easy not too stressful. High academic ability, but enough pressure is already applied internally. We don't need more. But then there's a current CC class which is really frustrating dd because she knows how to do what they are teaching already, and because she's at that level now, she isn't getting any help with learning more. We don't want that experience repeating itself over and over in college.

The only one that I’m aware of on your list that I think of as a pressure cooker is W&M. I haven’t investigated UVA enough yet to know, but I don’t think that is as much of an issue there. We are visiting at the beginning of October and my dd will sit in on a class. 

We have had the same concerns about the classes being too light at certain schools but, again, I’m not thinking you will find that to be the case either, My dd will be sitting in on an upper level Latin class at CNU in a couple of weeks to see what she thinks. Part of the draw for her is the honors program which will get her into upper level class more quickly.

I would suggest making visits and sitting in on classes. At every school we go to, dd sits in on an upper level Latin class. She gets a feel for the students and the academics by doing so that she thinks is helpful.

Someone mentioned University of Richmond. It is a private school and expensive but the aid is supposed to be good. Same thing with Washington & Lee. Those are both schools we’ve looked at closely.

ETA: Just remembering a friend of mine said some of the majors at tech were very difficult to do well in. Of course, she attended many years ago and things may have changed, but I would look into it if I were considering it.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Mom0012

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Innisfree said:

I guess, to get a little more specific: if a student's stats put them above, maybe even well above, the middle range accepted at a given school, would you expect that to mean classes might be too easy?  

There are a couple of things I looked at in this situation. 

An honors college or honors program can add challenge. The school should be able to give you solid information on how many honors classes are usually offered and what has specifically been offered the last few semesters. Go for the details, don't let them get away with, oh we have this amazing class and this other amazing class - a school that's offering just a couple of honors courses is very different from one that has more robust choices. 

I also looked at the school's Common Data Set. This will give you lots of information, including a breakdown of ACT scores from 18-23, 24-29, and 30-36. That's still fairly broad but upper quarter is 27 and above, it's helpful to know how many of that quarter are 30 and above. 

 

[Lanny]

OP I haven't read the preceding replies. A couple of comments: Virginia Tech is the university that had many more Freshmen enroll than they had anticipated, for the class of 2023, and that resulted in a severe housing shortage? Probably also in overcrowded classes?

The other school UVa, I have more knowledge about. In CollegeData.com (?) when I was researching it for my DD, they had two (2) lists of high school courses. One was shown as "Required" and the other was shown as "Recommended".  You can imagine which list of qualifications they are getting their Freshmen from and my money is on the "Recommended" list. I had not seen that for other schools my DD was considering or had applied to.

[Nicholas_mom]

Quote

As a parent, I found the crime log & safety reports interesting reading across different campus types/sizes. 

Yes!!  Me, too!

[catz]

9 hours ago, Innisfree said:

I guess, to get a little more specific: if a student's stats put them above, maybe even well above, the middle range accepted at a given school, would you expect that to mean classes might be too easy? We have that tension where we're looking for "just right", neither too easy not too stressful. High academic ability, but enough pressure is already applied internally. We don't need more. But then there's a current CC class which is really frustrating dd because she knows how to do what they are teaching already, and because she's at that level now, she isn't getting any help with learning more. We don't want that experience repeating itself over and over in college.

Ok - I do have a few thoughts on this.  My kid just launched to college this fall.  He is high stat/high ability and applied to a wide range of schools.  He did end up at a school where he is above the 75% stat wise.  We visited like 20 schools.  He applied to 10 or 11 I think.  

When you are talking about large public universities (my kid is at one), I think you have to consider a few things

• The average income of a student's family is lower, and in some cases MUCH lower than private schools at a large private university.  Especially those that are reasonably generous with need based aid (especially for residents).  The average incomes of the schools my kid applied to swung by more than 80K per year.  There is a direct correlation to high income to high standardized test scores.  Higher income kids have better access both to educational environments that are focused on this type of achievement AND the financial ability to prep and prepare and for those types of tests AND tend to have very supportive families.  I think it can be intereresting to look at that when you compare test scores of schools.  NYT has it out on the net for just about any school  Google "College name average family income" and it's typically one of the first links to come up.
• There are many many students at these schools.  So the average ACT scores at my son's public U were 27-32.  There are 40,000 students there.  That means there are 10K students that are high stat walking around.   That's more than many elite schools. There's not one type of student at large public universities.  I think fit is much more important at small schools.  
• A public school will be more willing to give an offbeat lower stat applicant a shot.  If they can't cut it, they will leave.  So graduation stats will look worse between those kids that really aren't ready and kids for who don't really have the financing to get through (and I think more schools are trying to fix this).  But some of those students will rise to the top too.  
• Many of these schools have honors programs available and may get special access to faculty and opportunities.  My kid actually got the most personal attention during the admissions process from a large public. 
• Stats and students can vary widely by program.  At our own state's flagship, the education program's average ACT scores are 23 to 28.  But the science and engineering program's ACT scores are 30-34.  Looking at the whole school's stats may not be necessarily meaningful and not every school publishes individual stats like that.  Like my kid's school comp sci program ranks in the top 15 in the country.  I could speculate most of the kids in that program are higher stat and now that my kid is there taking a comp sci class I'm seeing hand wringing about the rigor of that course work on parent boards.  
• We found as we dug in deeper, we were often more impressed by faculty at a large research university potentially in a larger metro/city than faculty at a smaller, possibly more rural school.  Regardless of stats or ranking of the schools.  
• Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting 20 minute video out about the advantages at being toward the top of your class in college
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UEwbRWFZVc

Anyway, in a nutshell, yes I absolutely think a high stat, high achieving kid can not only be just fine but do great and have amazing opportunities in a large public university.   

Edited September 13, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Hoggirl]

@FuzzyCatz - what a great post!

[Innisfree]

59 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

@FuzzyCatz - what a great post!

Yes! These are great points.

I really do appreciate all the thoughtful posts here.

[Lecka]

I used to live in a rural town with a college..... I would hear about them having recruitment problems because a lot of people are two-income families, and the spouse also needs a job.  

A lot of people need their spouse also able to get a good job, and have to rule out locations.  

[Mom0012]

4 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Ok - I do have a few thoughts on this.  My kid just launched to college this fall.  He is high stat/high ability and applied to a wide range of schools.  He did end up at a school where he is above the 75% stat wise.  We visited like 20 schools.  He applied to 10 or 11 I think.  

When you are talking about large public universities (my kid is at one), I think you have to consider a few things

• The average income of a student's family is lower, and in some cases MUCH lower than private schools at a large private university.  Especially those that are reasonably generous with need based aid (especially for residents).  The average incomes of the schools my kid applied to swung by more than 80K per year.  There is a direct correlation to high income to high standardized test scores.  Higher income kids have better access both to educational environments that are focused on this type of achievement AND the financial ability to prep and prepare and for those types of tests AND tend to have very supportive families.  I think it can be intereresting to look at that when you compare test scores of schools.  NYT has it out on the net for just about any school  Google "College name average family income" and it's typically one of the first links to come up.
• There are many many students at these schools.  So the average ACT scores at my son's public U were 27-32.  There are 40,000 students there.  That means there are 10K students that are high stat walking around.   That's more than many elite schools. There's not one type of student at large public universities.  I think fit is much more important at small schools.  
• A public school will be more willing to give an offbeat lower stat applicant a shot.  If they can't cut it, they will leave.  So graduation stats will look worse between those kids that really aren't ready and kids for who don't really have the financing to get through (and I think more schools are trying to fix this).  But some of those students will rise to the top too.  
• Many of these schools have honors programs available and may get special access to faculty and opportunities.  My kid actually got the most personal attention during the admissions process from a large public. 
• Stats and students can vary widely by program.  At our own state's flagship, the education program's average ACT scores are 23 to 28.  But the science and engineering program's ACT scores are 30-34.  Looking at the whole school's stats may not be necessarily meaningful and not every school publishes individual stats like that.  Like my kid's school comp sci program ranks in the top 15 in the country.  I could speculate most of the kids in that program are higher stat and now that my kid is there taking a comp sci class I'm seeing hand wringing about the rigor of that course work on parent boards.  
• We found as we dug in deeper, we were often more impressed by faculty at a large research university potentially in a larger metro/city than faculty at a smaller, possibly more rural school.  Regardless of stats or ranking of the schools.  
• Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting 20 minute video out about the advantages at being toward the top of your class in college
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UEwbRWFZVc

Anyway, in a nutshell, yes I absolutely think a high stat, high achieving kid can not only be just fine but do great and have amazing opportunities in a large public university.   

This is great !

[Lanny]

Follow-on to my previous comments in this thread: There is a possibility of very substantial need-based aid at UVa if one qualifies for that. They require, as I recall, the CSS Profile, in addition to the FAFSA form.

That is not common for a Public university and especially not for a Public university that is highly ranked as UVa is. 

[G5052]

I don't know that you're going to really be able to measure the difficulty in a reasonable way. When I look back at graduate school, most of the classes I had were insanely difficult. We're talking about 20-30 hours a week or more of homework a week all semester just for one class. That was at a large state college. Then I had one outlier that was like 3-5 hours a week, and the professor decided to stop lecturing six weeks before the end. We finished our projects (easy), and that was that. So I wouldn't judge one community college class that was easy and say that it's a problem. I had a few freshman-level classes myself that were easy, but it only got harder as I went.

We did the 2+2 with an "upper middle" four-year. Mine are indeed in the top 10% of their classes and are working their tails off in general. One is an accounting major and one is an English major, and both have a lot of homework. The accounting major runs about 40 hours a week of homework or more, but I don't see that as anything bad. That's how that major is. The other one reads a lot and has 2-3 writing assignments a week which take a lot of time. IMHO that's how upper-level classes are.

[Guest]

My parents are on faculty at JMU, and I grew up there. 

JMU is a huge school, both in numbers and size. Part of that is the way the campus has grown-basically, every time the city builds a new building farther out, the university takes over the old one, so it has ended up spreading out. Many services are mirrored on both sides of campus for that reason. 

It's always been a sports focused school to some degree, and it definitely has the "bleeds purple and gold" feel now. The football stadium is in the center of campus. It has also always had a substantial Greek culture. One thing that frustrated me on the tour is how much focus there was on sports, and that there was no mention of the marching band (one of the top in the country). 

Having said that, it is also a substantial undergraduate research school. JMU is one of the few schools that regularly bring multiple undergraduate researchers to major conferences in both my parents' discipline and in DD's. They are one of the few schools that actually have funded research for more than a handful of undergraduates. They host multiple REUs each year. Part of that is just plain serendipity-back in the late 1970's, when JMU moved from being Madison College, they hired a lot of young faculty, usually those doing post-docs or right out of their PhD's, many with families. And because Harrisonburg was a good place to raise a family, instead of these early career folks spending a few years at JMU and moving on to research Us, they brought their research with them, wrote grants, and built their labs and research programs from scratch-using undergrads because at the time, there WERE no grad students except maybe in Education and business. When those folks made it to the level to be hiring junior faculty, they picked those who also wanted to be at a teaching/research college with a focus on undergrad research. There is a substantial portion of students on campus who are there for that reason, and could care less about the football team and parties. There is definitely a niche and community there for a high stat kid.  JMU is also a major music school, and gets a lot of kids who want that, either as a major or minor, and again, the fine arts college has a different feel and a kid who is involved there could basically ignore the sports/party stuff unless they decide to be part of the Marching Royal Dukes-and MRD is it's own community that just happens to perform on the football field (and unironically considers the football team their warm up act). 

My brother went to Mary Washington, back when it was 90% women, and loved it there. It's a great school for a humanities focused kid. 

 

 

[Innisfree]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

My parents are on faculty at JMU, and I grew up there. 

JMU is a huge school, both in numbers and size. Part of that is the way the campus has grown-basically, every time the city builds a new building farther out, the university takes over the old one, so it has ended up spreading out. Many services are mirrored on both sides of campus for that reason. 

It's always been a sports focused school to some degree, and it definitely has the "bleeds purple and gold" feel now. The football stadium is in the center of campus. It has also always had a substantial Greek culture. One thing that frustrated me on the tour is how much focus there was on sports, and that there was no mention of the marching band (one of the top in the country). 

Having said that, it is also a substantial undergraduate research school. JMU is one of the few schools that regularly bring multiple undergraduate researchers to major conferences in both my parents' discipline and in DD's. They are one of the few schools that actually have funded research for more than a handful of undergraduates. They host multiple REUs each year. Part of that is just plain serendipity-back in the late 1970's, when JMU moved from being Madison College, they hired a lot of young faculty, usually those doing post-docs or right out of their PhD's, many with families. And because Harrisonburg was a good place to raise a family, instead of these early career folks spending a few years at JMU and moving on to research Us, they brought their research with them, wrote grants, and built their labs and research programs from scratch-using undergrads because at the time, there WERE no grad students except maybe in Education and business. When those folks made it to the level to be hiring junior faculty, they picked those who also wanted to be at a teaching/research college with a focus on undergrad research. There is a substantial portion of students on campus who are there for that reason, and could care less about the football team and parties. There is definitely a niche and community there for a high stat kid.  JMU is also a major music school, and gets a lot of kids who want that, either as a major or minor, and again, the fine arts college has a different feel and a kid who is involved there could basically ignore the sports/party stuff unless they decide to be part of the Marching Royal Dukes-and MRD is it's own community that just happens to perform on the football field (and unironically considers the football team their warm up act). 

My brother went to Mary Washington, back when it was 90% women, and loved it there. It's a great school for a humanities focused kid. 

 

 

Thanks so much for this. I think dd will be interested in the research opportunities and the insight into the school.

[ThisIsTheDay]

On 9/12/2019 at 5:03 PM, Innisfree said:

So any experience with JMU, George Mason, Mary Washington or others would be welcome.

...

What she wants is to have lots of opportunities, classes that challenge her, but not an atmosphere of stress and pressure.

 

My daughter graduated from George Mason two years ago. She was in the Honors Program.  (More below.)

On 9/13/2019 at 6:09 AM, Innisfree said:

Can anyone else speak to the degree of academic pressure at any of these schools? (Thanks, Mom0012.) I know this is experienced differently by different students, but does it seem more intense at particular schools, or is this really just impossible to measure? Has anyone gotten a sense for it by visiting?

I guess, to get a little more specific: if a student's stats put them above, maybe even well above, the middle range accepted at a given school, would you expect that to mean classes might be too easy? We have that tension where we're looking for "just right", neither too easy not too stressful. High academic ability, but enough pressure is already applied internally. We don't need more. But then there's a current CC class which is really frustrating dd because she knows how to do what they are teaching already, and because she's at that level now, she isn't getting any help with learning more. We don't want that experience repeating itself over and over in college.

 

My dd did not feel academic pressure at Mason, she's just not that kind of person. I don't think there's a connection between student stats and class difficulty. For example, the difficulty of an American Lit class is going to be based more on the professor rather than the school. In a same level class, you could expect to find the same range of difficulty at the Virginia Community College System, William & Mary, and a lower level VA public university. Some professors are going to be easy, some will be more challenging. There are a lot of variables. If your dd is worried about taking classes where she already may know the material, she can email the professor ahead of time and ask for a syllabus. My kids have always used RateMyProfessor to get ideas about what the class will be like. It's usually been spot on, but you need to read between the lines and decide if the instructor will be a good fit for *you* based on the reviews.

Dd found loads of opportunities, mostly based on her major, at Mason. It was not her first choice initially, but she ended up loving the school. She had a lot of flexibility in her classes, peer review mentorship, fellowship program, for example.  Mason didn't seem to be a big party school, most of the students seemed to leave for the weekends.

My ds went the CC route and then transferred to VCU. He's made a great transition; however, considering that Mason and VCU are about the same size, I've been surprised by the lack of opportunities for his major. He needs to work harder at making things happen for himself (a good challenge, but it'd be nice if he had options laid out by the school).

We are so fortunate to live in Virginia where there are so many great options!

On 9/13/2019 at 11:07 AM, Lanny said:

OP I haven't read the preceding replies. A couple of comments: Virginia Tech is the university that had many more Freshmen enroll than they had anticipated, for the class of 2023, and that resulted in a severe housing shortage? Probably also in overcrowded classes?

The other school UVa, I have more knowledge about. In CollegeData.com (?) when I was researching it for my DD, they had two (2) lists of high school courses. One was shown as "Required" and the other was shown as "Recommended".  You can imagine which list of qualifications they are getting their Freshmen from and my money is on the "Recommended" list. I had not seen that for other schools my DD was considering or had applied to.

 

This is not the first time Tech has "over enrolled." I find it hard to believe it's an accident--1,000 extra freshman? It's always good to be in the news for positive stories though. I call it a big fat PR stunt!

 

 

[lewelma]

On 9/13/2019 at 10:09 PM, Innisfree said:

Can anyone else speak to the degree of academic pressure at any of these schools? (Thanks, Mom0012.) I know this is experienced differently by different students, but does it seem more intense at particular schools, or is this really just impossible to measure? Has anyone gotten a sense for it by visiting?

I can't speak to the schools you are considering, but we were very concerned about academic pressure and competitive culture when my older was applying.  We visited the schools with the sole purpose to find out as best we could what it was like to be a student there - was there a collaborative cultured, was it cut-throat, was there heavy partying, were kids interested in balance, was there a one-up-man-ship thing going on? etc. When we organized our tours, we made sure we could meet with 1) at least 2 students at the school (one of which would be in ds's majors), 2) a professor in his department, 3) admissions person, 4) academic adviser/curriculum administrator in ds's major. We learned a LOT from these chats, and looked for reoccurring themes.  We also name dropped at other schools where else ds was applying and often got a bit more of a scoop from professors concerning their competition.  What we found was that ds's current school had had a big run of suicides about 5 years ago which really woke the school up to mental health and the importance of developing a culture of collaboration and caring. We heard it from everyone, and more importantly heard how they were specifically tackling this - through shared mental health course requirements that were focusing on helping your friends, through academic advisers discouraging the higher course loads as a way of impressing your friends, by encouraging working together on all assignments but then writing them up yourself for the grade, etc. So it was actually the school's earlier failure that led to changes making it less pressured academically than all the others that ds was considering, even though it was equally rigorous. Culture is a tricky thing to try to figure out, and it took us a ton of time an effort from very far away to make sure ds was in the right environment for him. So I would suggest you just keep asking asking asking, and come up with a list of more specific questions than about 'academic pressure' - the devil is in the details. 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I have two nieces who are JMU grads, for one of them it was her first choice school.  They both loved it and have profited from the education. I learned that there is not enough housing to have students live on campus all four years. Also, their parents observed that JMU is sinking lots of money into campus improvements, building projects, renovations, better food and living spaces, new classrooms, increased student services, etc. This is different from many campuses that are downsizing, cutting programs, slow to renovate, etc.

Do look at some of the Virginia private schools if they appeal to your students.  I think a few have attempted to bring their prices more in line with state tuition levels. 

Also, from what I hear from my college kids (both in VA schools), UVA isn't a pressure cooker-it's a party school, at least that is their reputation.  If you are considering what is a pressure cooker at a large university, I think you have to dig deeper into the individual departments. A place can be challenging and competitive in one department but not in another.

[G5052]

Over the weekend, I asked mine about their college's Reddit, and they both said they found it useful. Of course there's a lot of discussion about dorms, food, and transportation because those are essentials that students talk about. They both disagreed with some of what was said and found other parts that were helpful. It's a given that mostly people complain. My younger one said she appreciated discussions about safety on campus and some of the food discussions, but my two young adults disagree on food and actually eat at two different cafeterias.

One has a more nurturing department, and one has good professors but is more competitive. But they are both happy and have benefited from having a lot of options in their majors.

It's a bit maddening to come along side with them in these hard decisions but a joy to see them come into their own. You'll get it! 

[HollyDay]

I'm biased as Mary Washington is my alma mater.  It is a beautiful campus and a great size.  I've obviously not attended in a while but I do keep in touch with what is going on in the area.  Most of the classes are a decent size.  The professors had time for the students and there seem to be lots of opportunities.  The area is so close to DC and Richmond, that guest speakers, internships, etc. are fairly easy to find.  Depending upon the major, it has excellent resource.  Their history, political science, historic preservation, and international affairs departments have much to draw from simply due to the location of the campus.

I have relatives and friends whose dc have attended JMU.  They speak well of it. It is bigger than UMW and does have more of a reputation as a party type school.  Unlike UMW, it has a football team and all the prep rally stuff that goes along with that.  Nothing wrong with that of course, just a different atmosphere.  In fact, a few relatives chose JMU because they wanted the sports atmosphere. I think it is what you make of it.  If you can chose your roommate or get matched with a roommate with similar styles, then the party atmosphere might not be much of an impact.  But, if you don't want to to party and you get a roommate who does and has a boyfriend and his friends over quite a bit, then that will be an issue.

I took classes at George Mason and ended up working there for a time.  My impression was that it is more a commuter college.  I was invited to more parties there than I ever was while I lived at UMW. 

I also took classes at UVA.  I thought it was a great place.  Very friendly.  I was a commuter student and only took a summer class so I can't speak to the atmosphere during the regular terms. 

I have relatives who attended Va Tech.  They spoke of the party, football atmosphere, sports, greek life, etc.  They said the winters were bleak and trying due to the bitter cold weather. 

There are other schools, Randolf Macon, Longwood,  Regents, ODU

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 9/15/2019 at 1:32 AM, ThisIsTheDay said:

This is not the first time Tech has "over enrolled." I find it hard to believe it's an accident--1,000 extra freshman? It's always good to be in the news for positive stories though. I call it a big fat PR stunt!

 

 

 

I think the president at Virginia Tech definitely has a goal of making the school larger (even over the frustration of the current student body).  But I also think that the high yield was a surprise for them this year. I played around with the numbers when the large freshman class was announced. There had been a couple years of lower yield, and then this class was a higher yield year, but still within the norms for the past 5-7 years.  When you are dealing with a large school, a couple percentage points difference can have a big effect.

I don't think most colleges welcome news of being over-capacity. It's one thing to be very popular. It's something else to have to house students in converted lounges and hotels.