Are there still specific pronouns in your world?

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, JennyD said:

  I do see that students occasionally put their preferred pronouns -- which are nearly always gendered --  in their email signatures.

You probably know this, but I want to add for others:

Including one's pronouns in the email signature, when one is a person whose name and appearance match one's gender identity (and when nobody would have presumed otherwise), is often used as a way to signal awareness of gender identity issues, kind of a code for "I'm an ally". I have heard from non-binary persons that this can be important to them.

Often, students who are non-binary or trans hesitate to make their pronoun public, because that means coming out. That is why, contrary to previous recommendations, faculty are nowadays discouraged to ask for everybody's pronouns in the first class session, so as not to put these students on the spot.

[bolt.]

One interesting suggestion that I read was that people might consider "practicing" by using singular they pronouns for animals. For one thing, you can't make your pet uncomfortable, so it's okay to play with language and feel a bit awkward about it. Your pet won't take offense. For another thing, the gender of pets is completely irrelevant in many situations (aside from breeders) and, often, pets have been spayed or neutered. Being 'fixed' doesn't change their biological sex,  but it does open a sense that we aren't quite so obligated to verbally refer to them by gender in every sentence. Obviously, livestock is a bit different: where sex and fixed-not-fixed status is relevant information in nearly every sentence -- but it can be interesting to take this baby step and see how it feels to just say, "Who's a good dog?" instead of making it about boys and girls all the time.

[katilac]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Sure I would.

Any time more than 2 people are in the same room, this can happen.

"Your sister might like some, did you offer it to her?"

"Your sister can't carry that by herself - please help her."

"This gift is for grandpa - please carry it to him."

 "The aunties are ready to go - don't make them wait for you."

"Your brother is talking; don't interrupt him."

Of course you COULD use all of those sentences, but I honestly don't think you would. They are overly formal and specific for casual speech. I think people are much more likely to simply say: please help your sister, bring this gift to grandpa, don't interrupt. Hmm, I now want to do some eavesdropping informal research. 

2 hours ago, Joker said:

But if any of these people were non binary, you would not be using the descriptors you are using here (sister, aunties, grandpa, brother) so you would already be adjusting your speech. 

"Did you offer (name) any? They might like some."

"(Name) can't carry that alone. Can you help them?"

And so on. 

Good point. 

[maize]

46 minutes ago, katilac said:

Of course you COULD use all of those sentences, but I honestly don't think you would. They are overly formal and specific for casual speech. I think people are much more likely to simply say: please help your sister, bring this gift to grandpa, don't interrupt. Hmm, I now want to do some eavesdropping informal research. 

Good point. 

I use sentences like those in the previous post all the time.

This is R's, please put it in her drawer (when we are folding laundry)

It's N's turn for the toy, please give it to him.

Don't take that doll from H, it belongs to her.

It is time to get out of the boys' room and let them go to sleep.

Has dad seen your painting? You should show it to him.

I wouldn't know how to parent a bunch of kids without using lots of third person pronouns for people who are in the room.

Edited August 12, 2019 by maize

[Chris in VA]

Can I insert a small and admittedly ignorant question? (and awkwardly phrased, for good measure...) Why does gender take precedence over physical sex? Is it the choice aspect? (Is gender a choice?) Perhaps I should start another thread. I'm very sorry if this is offensive in any way. 

[maize]

9 hours ago, Chris in VA said:

Can I insert a small and admittedly ignorant question? (and awkwardly phrased, for good measure...) Why does gender take precedence over physical sex? Is it the choice aspect? (Is gender a choice?) Perhaps I should start another thread. I'm very sorry if this is offensive in any way. 

Gender is a kind of amorphous concept and certainly not everyone thinks self identification is more valid than biological sex. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by maize

[Tanaqui]

Well, that's gonna be a fun conversation that in no way will be derailed!

Sex is (roughly) our parts and/or chromosomes. Most people don't get to see our parts, hardly anybody really knows what their chromosomes are like, and having indeterminate parts or a mixture of some xx and some xy cells is a lot more common than anybody realizes.

Gender identity is how we feel on the inside - which might be male, female, both, neither (I am so oversimplifying here.) Most people either a. feel like the gender that generally matches their body parts (cisgender) or b. don't really care at all and so have never really thought about it and therefore identify as the gender that generally, for our society, matches their body parts (also cisgender, but some people call this "cisgender by default"). A small percentage of the population does not feel that way, and can be distressed by having to live that way. THIS IS NOT A NEW PHENOMENON. Nor is it limited to certain cultures.

Gender presentation is how "men" or "women" act in a society. You can be a cisgender woman and still not particularly follow rigid gender roles for your society - perhaps you always wear pants and you do your own plumbing work and car repair, or whatever. (Or, for cisgender men, perhaps you still like to paint your nails in sparkly colors and you stay at home with the kids and you love to bake.) You can also be transgender and still not fit the rigid gender roles for your preferred gender - for example, one transgender* man I know loves to paint his nails in the aforementioned sparkly colors and collects dolls. He's just a man, despite not having a penis. Doing these things doesn't make him not-a-man.

We generally find that the treatment with the best outcomes for transgender individuals is transition - that is, living as their preferred gender (however that looks for them). Many transgender people also choose hormone therapy. Surgery is somewhat less popular. Transition is associated with a lower risk of depression, anxiety, suicide - all those fun things!

* Typed cisgender too many times and my fingers got confused. My friend is transgender.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Tanaqui

[Frances]

6 hours ago, Pen said:

Yes.   We are in an edge area.  We are in rural Oregon and gender specific pronouns and they/their only for two or more people is the norm locally.

 In Eugene and Portland people specifying what pronouns they prefer and frequent use of they/their to mean one person is getting fairly common, especially among people associated with colleges/universities/young adults. 

I particularly encountered it when I did NaNoWriMo, where at local meetings “what are your pronouns” seems to be the first question people were asking.

I live in a major city in the PNW and have yet to be in a situation, either personal or professional, where anyone has discussed pronoun preferences or used anything except gender specific pronouns or they/their for two or more. I’ve only heard about it happening in academia.

[LMD]

28 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Well, that's gonna be a fun conversation that in no way will be derailed!

Sex is (roughly) our parts and/or chromosomes. Most people don't get to see our parts, hardly anybody really knows what their chromosomes are like, and having indeterminate parts or a mixture of some xx and some xy cells is a lot more common than anybody realizes.

Gender identity is how we feel on the inside - which might be male, female, both, neither (I am so oversimplifying here.) Most people either a. feel like the gender that generally matches their body parts (cisgender) or b. don't really care at all and so have never really thought about it and therefore identify as the gender that generally, for our society, matches their body parts (also cisgender, but some people call this "cisgender by default"). A small percentage of the population does not feel that way, and can be distressed by having to live that way. THIS IS NOT A NEW PHENOMENON. Nor is it limited to certain cultures.

Gender presentation is how "men" or "women" act in a society. You can be a cisgender woman and still not particularly follow rigid gender roles for your society - perhaps you always wear pants and you do your own plumbing work and car repair, or whatever. (Or, for cisgender men, perhaps you still like to paint your nails in sparkly colors and you stay at home with the kids and you love to bake.) You can also be transgender and still not fit the rigid gender roles for your preferred gender - for example, one cisgender man I know loves to paint his nails in the aforementioned sparkly colors and collects dolls. He's just a man, despite not having a penis. Doing these things doesn't make him not-a-man.

We generally find that the treatment with the best outcomes for transgender individuals is transition - that is, living as their preferred gender (however that looks for them). Many transgender people also choose hormone therapy. Surgery is somewhat less popular. Transition is associated with a lower risk of depression, anxiety, suicide - all those fun things!

My bold. Wow, no, that's not at all true. If you are a female who has ovulated, menstruated and naturally fallen pregnant, you can be sure you're xx. If you're a male who produces sperm then you can be sure you're xy. That's the whole point of reproductive sex classes, reproduction. Disorders of sexual development don't make someone an in between sex, it means the disorder they suffer from affects their physical sex characteristics (amongst other things) and makes it more difficult to observe their sex. Their suffering is not a gotcha for perfectly healthy bodied people who believe in gender identity, and they have repeatedly asked to not be used that way.

[Shoeless]

Yes, gendered pronouns are still a thing here.  If I'm unsure of what to do, I use they/their/them.  I don't know anyone that uses ze/zir and don't really see those becoming popular in usage when most people I know are comfortable using they/them/their.     

[Liz CA]

2 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Do you mean a transgender man you know?  I agree with everything else, but I'm confused by the cisgender man without a penis, unless some detail is missing from the story to explain the missing penis.

 

I got a little confused here too.  

[Laura Corin]

6 hours ago, maize said:

Gendered third person pronouns are definitely not a fundamental requirement of human language, ask any speaker of Chinese and they will let you know they get by just fine using non gendered ta for everyone.

Language change though generally happens organically not intentionally, especially for core components like personal pronouns so I am confident he and she aren't disappearing anytime soon.

Just for reference, the spoken 'ta' is the same for male and female, but the written 'ta' has a male or female radical (meaning element). 

[Tanaqui]

4 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Do you mean a transgender man you know?  I agree with everything else, but I'm confused by the cisgender man without a penis, unless some detail is missing from the story to explain the missing penis.

 

My fingers got confused, I caught it and have now edited. Alas, it took a while because I was first dealing with a small scale fiscal disaster and then binging Brooklyn 99.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

My bold. Wow, no, that's not at all true. If you are a female who has ovulated, menstruated and naturally fallen pregnant, you can be sure you're xx. If you're a male who produces sperm then you can be sure you're xy.

Sorry, no, mosaicism and chimerism are both a LOT more common than people realize, and they don't always affect your reproductive abilities. We are only now starting to have any concept of how common this is, precisely because if nothing is wrong, nobody checks.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Tanaqui

[LMD]

8 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Sorry, no, mosaicism and chimerism are both a LOT more common than people realize, and they don't always affect your reproductive abilities. We are only now starting to have any concept of how common this is, precisely because if nothing is wrong, nobody checks.

Well, there's only been about 100 medically verified cases of chimerism, and the most common form of mosaicism is in the trisomy diagnoses.

None of that has anything at all to do with transgenderism.

[freesia]

Yes, gendered pronouns are the norm in my area.  I’ve only heard they/them in the singular used at a theater q and a by one of the actors referring to a child who had just asked a question.  

[Tanaqui]

31 minutes ago, LMD said:

Well, there's only been about 100 medically verified cases of chimerism, and the most common form of mosaicism is in the trisomy diagnoses.

None of that has anything at all to do with transgenderism.

 

Hm. So sex doesn't have to do with being transgender at all? Interesting opinion.

[LMD]

35 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Hm. So sex doesn't have to do with being transgender at all? Interesting opinion.

Yeah, don't put words in my mouth.

Are you saying that being trans is a form of chromosomal abnormality? Is chromosome testing part of a gender dysphoria diagnosis? 

You said no one really knows their chromosomes and that having a "mixture of some xx and some xy cells is a lot more common than anybody realizes"  That is an extraordinary claim and I'd genuinely love to see where you picked it up.

[Chris in VA]

Thank you for letting me ask. Very honestly, I don't always get the subtleties in these conversations due to ASD, or maybe due to upbringing, IDK. I would never want to treat someone poorly or hurt their feelings out of my blundering thru stuff like this. We still have he/she pronouns, and I have never heard of "they" being a singular pronoun except for use by royals, so I'm learning. 

[Carrie12345]

I don’t personally know of anyone in my life who uses/prefers/requests gender neutral pronouns for themselves.  If that comes up, I will certainly honor that. Perhaps with a few stumbles like I did with changed pronouns, but it didn’t take long to adapt. It’s also handy to have at the ready when crossing paths with androgynous people. I’ve been around a lot of little boys with long hair in my life (including my own in the past) as well as a few trans kids before they were openly living their lives.  I’d rather just play it safe unless/until I get some reliable input.

I do use gender neutral pronouns pretty often in the general sense.  Having 2 girls and 3 boys, it’s become almost natural for me to avoid having people narrow down suspects when I talk about some of the less than impressive things they’ve done over the years, lol. And I agree with people talking about students and other formal/professional relationships when trying to limit biases.

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, Frances said:

I live in a major city in the PNW and have yet to be in a situation, either personal or professional, where anyone has discussed pronoun preferences or used anything except gender specific pronouns or they/their for two or more. I’ve only heard about it happening in academia.

The people where I encountered it are not associated with academia at all.

I think there my be something about critical mass. People who are part of a queer community are more likely to assert themselves in this respect than  isolated individuals.  It takes a lot of guts, and having that modeled and supported goes a long way.

Edited August 12, 2019 by regentrude

[maize]

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Just for reference, the spoken 'ta' is the same for male and female, but the written 'ta' has a male or female radical (meaning element). 

This is true, but it is also an innovation under European influence in the early 20th century; prior to that ta as a third person pronoun did not have separate male and female forms. 

This is from wiktionary, regarding the female form of the ta character:

Originally a variant of 姐 (jiě, “elder sister”). Later repurposed as a feminine third-person pronoun influenced by European languages, with the glyph being the result of replacing the 人 (“person”) radical in 他 (tā) with 女(“woman”). Linguist Liu Bannong is credited with coining this use around the 1910s (Bi, 2013).

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

This is true, but it is also an innovation under European influence in the early 20th century; prior to that ta as a third person pronoun did not have separate male and female forms. 

This is from wiktionary, regarding the female form of the ta character:

Originally a variant of 姐 (jiě, “elder sister”). Later repurposed as a feminine third-person pronoun influenced by European languages, with the glyph being the result of replacing the 人 (“person”) radical in 他 (tā) with 女(“woman”). Linguist Liu Bannong is credited with coining this use around the 1910s (Bi, 2013).

There are plenty of other things in the Chinese language that relate to gender.

[Paige]

Using non gendered pronouns when gender is known and claimed seems weird to me. I support using whatever pronoun a person wants and default to using whatever gendered pronoun seems most appropriate until I’m told otherwise. If I am unsure I don’t use pronouns because I don’t want to be wrong and cause offense. 

I had my first obvious clue that times are changing at a college visit this summer. The tour guide looked very much like a typical female student and introduced herself by saying, “My name is (common female name) and I prefer the pronouns she, her...” 

I wonder if this will become common and unremarkable in a few years. I dislike they as a singular pronoun but maybe I’m now old enough to be a grumpy old person who dislikes change. I think we should expect language to change. 

 

[almondbutterandjelly]

Minor grammatical question:  If you use "they" as a singular pronoun, what is the associated "to be" verb?  Do you say "they are" like you would if it meant plural?  Or do you say "they is" like "he is" and "she is"?  I'm guessing "they are" but I'm not sure.

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, perkybunch said:

Minor grammatical question:  If you use "they" as a singular pronoun, what is the associated "to be" verb?  Do you say "they are" like you would if it meant plural?  Or do you say "they is" like "he is" and "she is"?  I'm guessing "they are" but I'm not sure.

I have heard both "they are" and "they is", with "they are" seeming more common

[maize]

3 minutes ago, perkybunch said:

Minor grammatical question:  If you use "they" as a singular pronoun, what is the associated "to be" verb?  Do you say "they are" like you would if it meant plural?  Or do you say "they is" like "he is" and "she is"?  I'm guessing "they are" but I'm not sure.

They are.

Just as we use the 2nd person plural conjugation with singular you--you are, not the second person singular "art" as in "thou art".

[Pen]

11 hours ago, LMD said:

My bold. Wow, no, that's not at all true. If you are a female who has ovulated, menstruated and naturally fallen pregnant, you can be sure you're xx.

 

Afaik, There have been a very few exceptions ever validated—so extraordinarily rare as to fit “the exception proves the rule” concept.  

[Tanaqui]

7 hours ago, LMD said:

Yeah, don't put words in my mouth.

Are you saying that being trans is a form of chromosomal abnormality? Is chromosome testing part of a gender dysphoria diagnosis? 

You said no one really knows their chromosomes and that having a "mixture of some xx and some xy cells is a lot more common than anybody realizes"  That is an extraordinary claim and I'd genuinely love to see where you picked it up.

 

No. First I defined sex and gave some examples where it may be unintuitive. Then, having defined sex, I defined gender identity and gender presentation.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

17 hours ago, katilac said:

I really don't think there is, though. Your example sounds awkward to me because that's likely not the way you would speak if the kid was right there. 

 

Actually, it is quite common. I never realized how often it comes up until my own dc came out as non-binary last year.  It happens in group conversation all the time when we're talking about my dc in a group, or when they aren't part of the conversation, but easily within earshot. It seems to happen most often when responding to a question.  Someone will ask a question about my dc, using their name.  It it extremely awkward to answer using their name again.  

Here's an real-life example, using a random non-binary name (not my dc's name):
"Where is Madison?"  "Madison's right over there, getting some tea."  
My first inclination was to say, "She's right over there..."  But then I stumbled, wondering if it was a safe place to say "They're right over there..." I chose not to, since it wasn't a conversation about dc's preferred gender, it was only a question about their location, so I murmered, "Ma-di-sonnnn is ..." before I just clammed up and pointed in the general direction.  The whole two-hour visit was filled with little interchanges like this, one right after the other.  It was quite frustrating for me, partly because it was all so new, and partly because we hadn't yet explained to these friends about my dc's being gender neutral, or about their preferred pronoun. 

It is awkward. In some situations, I take the time to explain dc's pronoun preference.  I follow dc's lead. Sometimes, they're comfortable just letting it slide because they're not going to have an ongoing relationship with the person/people.  Other times, I can tell that dc would like to share more about their name change, and their preferred pronoun, so I help create a comversational environment that makes that easier.  Other times, when dc isn't present, I'll explain it to extended family members or close friends.  The conversation sometimes takes two hours, even with the most understanding and accepting folks, just because there is so much education involved.  We have to determine whether it's worth the effort. 

It has been challenging to change the way I speak, because (to me) pronouns had always been *non-words*.  What I mean is, the pronoun was never the point of the sentence.  The pronoun was just a little word (like an article) that I used as a foundation to get to the main point.  All of a sudden, I was forced to think about the pronoun, and either quickly change it to a different one, or rephrase my sentence to say the same thing without a pronoun.  It was quite paralyzing for a time (still is, sometimes).  I find myself just not speaking in my dc's presence because I don't wish to disrespect them, but my brain can't think quickly enough to totally change my speech patterns without creating awkward disruptions in conversation.  

 

 

[Pen]

Many of the colleges/universities in our area now have things like this:

university pronoun policy:

https://studentlife.uoregon.edu/pronouns

around 10% of the population of Eugene is UofO students, with other students at other colleges (mostly liberal leaning, but some Christian conservative as well).  Corvallis has similar approaches at OSU—though OSU has a little more conservative tendencies. Portland is less population percent dominated by students, but has Reed, Lewis and Clark, and some other very liberal trending colleges.  

I think that can make a difference compared to cities dominated by an older population base, or more conservative major business or corporate employers. 

ETA: if ~ 10% of an area has a population being taught to state preferred pronouns at intro, I think it starts to have an impact that ripples out, especially if there are activities like NaNoWriMo that mix town and gown.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Pen

[Mbelle]

I haven't run into anyone requesting to be called They myself, but dh works for a giant corporation and in his division there are people who go by that pronoun.  We live in south and this company was started here many decades ago by locals if that makes any difference.   

[LMD]

4 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

No. First I defined sex and gave some examples where it may be unintuitive. Then, having defined sex, I defined gender identity and gender presentation.

Sort of. You defined sex as 'parts and/or chromosomes' then went on to say how hardly anyone knows their chromosomes and "having indeterminate parts or a mixture of some xx and xy cells is a lot more common than anybody realizes"

I'm disagreeing with you and asking you to back up your assertions. Can you link to something that supports your claim that having a "mixture of some xx and xy cells is a lot more common than anybody realizes," please?

Here's my definition of sex fyi: the state of having a physical body that belongs to either of the mammalian reproductive classes, males having the potential to produce small motile gametes (spermatozoa), females having the potential to produce large gametes (ovum).

[Pen]

I am concerned that political correctness may cover up an environmental health disaster :

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1452803/Pollution-changes-sex-of-whales.html

 

we have seen farm animal and wildlife changes

[Pen]

13 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I agree that's concerning - and the idea of an environmenal disruptor inducing gender dysphoria is not an impossible or even unlikely one - but I don't think it has much to do with non-binary 'they/them' pronouns. 

 

Some of the pronoun use seems to be related to trying to be inclusive. And some of the feelings of not being a he or she could be environmentally related without people realizing it. 

[regentrude]

8 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Now that middle aged women are adopting the non-binary identity, I'd be surprised if it grew much further on campus. Your mom being non-binary is pretty much the kiss of death - a bit  like FB.

Non-binary is something I could easily and truthfully identify as - I don't internally feel like a man or woman, I just feel like a human who knows she is female because of her female body. I don't, because to me it seems like 'I'm not like other girls!' - I assume most females also feel human, and not like a Barbie Doll.

I have recently had discussions in two different groups of women about this. In both groups, a portion of the women has a pronounced sense of their gender identity as female, and a portion lacks that sensation completely. I belong to the latter and have no sensation of "being woman" ( I obviously am aware of my anatomy, but don't feel it defines any important part of who I am. ) But there are some who feel very strongly that they are, and for whom this is an important identity.

ETA: as for middle aged women: they may have had the sensation all along, but up to now no vocabulary to name it. The phenomenon of nb persons isn't a modern invention and exists in many cultures. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by regentrude

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

I am concerned that political correctness may cover up an environmental health disaster :

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1452803/Pollution-changes-sex-of-whales.html

 

we have seen farm animal and wildlife changes

But most people who identify as non binary do not have hermaphroditic anatomy

[moonflower]

On 8/11/2019 at 9:42 PM, bolt. said:

One interesting suggestion that I read was that people might consider "practicing" by using singular they pronouns for animals. For one thing, you can't make your pet uncomfortable, so it's okay to play with language and feel a bit awkward about it. Your pet won't take offense. For another thing, the gender of pets is completely irrelevant in many situations (aside from breeders) and, often, pets have been spayed or neutered. Being 'fixed' doesn't change their biological sex,  but it does open a sense that we aren't quite so obligated to verbally refer to them by gender in every sentence. Obviously, livestock is a bit different: where sex and fixed-not-fixed status is relevant information in nearly every sentence -- but it can be interesting to take this baby step and see how it feels to just say, "Who's a good dog?" instead of making it about boys and girls all the time.

 

this is pretty hilarious, imo

because for pets, of course, gender is analogous to sex, they are not separate things

and the whole idea of choosing a pronoun, or using singular they ones, is based on the idea that gender and sex are somehow separate things

so why practice it on animals?  either they don't have a gender or their gender is their sex

of course sometimes it's more useful to use neutral pronouns in re: animals because it's hard for us to discern their sex at a glance (we're not animals, so it's not as evolutionarily useful to tell male dog/cat/rabbit from female dog/cat/rabbit as it is to tell female human from male human)

but that has zero to do with gender

[Pen]

8 hours ago, regentrude said:

But most people who identify as non binary do not have hermaphroditic anatomy

 

How would we be able to tell if wildlife were subjectively feeling non-binary or asking for pronoun changes within their own languages?  

 

(ETA I was actually thinking of people who believe that chromosome patterns other than XX and XY and sexual gonad mixtures are extremely common — that impression may be affected if one grows up in a world with visible changes in the animals we commonly see.  The impression of what a Stallion or Bull or male Wild Turkey or male Elk or stag is like, for example, may be different for a child now than it was a couple of generations ago.  Of course , living in a rural area currently, I probably see many more large,  non human animals than when I lived in a city.) 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Pen

[EKS]

On 8/11/2019 at 3:38 PM, SKL said:

Yes, and I am glad because frankly, I think the contrived non-gendered pronouns are a fad that will die soon.

I have always used they/them, at least informally, when referring to a nonspecific singular person.  In formal writing, up until the last few years, I always used "he or she" and so forth or, better, simply reworded the sentence to avoid it altogether.  Lately, though, I have begun using they/them even in formal writing.

However, unless a person specifically requests the use of they/their in reference to themselves, I won't use they/them for singular, non-anonymous persons.  I find such a construction to be extremely jarring and would vastly prefer an alternative.  I say, contrive away, for that is how language evolves.

[unsinkable]

what are the new words that signify relationships (son, daughter) that aren't gender specific?

[Farrar]

4 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

what are the new words that signify relationships (son, daughter) that aren't gender specific?

Most of them are already with us... child, offspring, sibling, cousin, parent, grandparent, spouse, partner... One that's new on me is niebling, which means niece or nephew. I don't know ones for aunt and uncle or for grandparents, though I think "Grand" is a bit gender neutral as I've known a couple of grandparents use that. Other ones tend to be individual to the situation. Like if someone has a nonbinary parent, they tend to have a parent name the way someone has a grandparent name. Same with aunts and uncles. Sometimes people borrow from other languages, which helps neutralize the name a bit. I think it's really up to the individuals what they want to be called. But other than aunt/uncle, pretty much every relationship in English has an already in use gender-neutral form.

[unsinkable]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Most of them are already with us... child, offspring, sibling, cousin, parent, grandparent, spouse, partner... One that's new on me is niebling, which means niece or nephew. I don't know ones for aunt and uncle or for grandparents, though I think "Grand" is a bit gender neutral as I've known a couple of grandparents use that. Other ones tend to be individual to the situation. Like if someone has a nonbinary parent, they tend to have a parent name the way someone has a grandparent name. Same with aunts and uncles. Sometimes people borrow from other languages, which helps neutralize the name a bit. I think it's really up to the individuals what they want to be called. But other than aunt/uncle, pretty much every relationship in English has an already in use gender-neutral form.

For me, It'd be awkward to say, "This is my child, Chris" when introducing an adult. And offspring sounds almost clinical and seems more like what you'd hear in a nature program. 

I aprreciate the answer. 

[Farrar]

4 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

For me, It'd be awkward to say, "This is my child, Chris" when introducing an adult. And offspring sounds almost clinical and seems more like what you'd hear in a nature program. 

I aprreciate the answer. 

I've known a few parents of non-binary children. They do usually say that. Or, more likely, "This is my kid," which helps it feel casual and less like a nature program or a court document or whatever formal image it conjures. I'm assuming your kids aren't non-binary so it's totally okay that it doesn't sound right.

Over time, these things sound more natural. The first time I heard "partner" for someone - especially in a het relationship - I was like, gee, that sounds a little weird. But now it sounds totally natural to me.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

53 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

what are the new words that signify relationships (son, daughter) that aren't gender specific?

 

When introducing my adult, gender-neutral child (Gnc), I'll either say "my firstborn..." or "my eldest".  If they weren't firstborn, I would likely vary that to "middle child" or "youngest".  I use "offspring" once in awhile, but only in very informal settings, said in a joking way to avoid sound like I'm describing livestock.

Interestingly, my Gnc doesn't mind being called "Darling Daughter" because it's more of a nickname (which we've used forever) than a gender identifier for them.  They've said it's okay for younger sister to use "My sister".  We don't use those words, typically, but if something slips out, it doesn't bother Gnc.  

[Terabith]

This is an interesting question.  I think singular they is the way of the future.  It seems to be preferred among most nb individuals; it has a long history in English, and it's usually the easiest solution.  

Now...the notion of nonbinary seems to be occurring FAR more frequently than it used to be, and I have questions about that.  My oldest identifies as nonbinary, although she still uses primarily she/ her pronouns.  Her significant other, however, also identifies as nonbinary but uses they/ them pronouns.  This has taken me by surprise.  We've had a number of friends who are very close to the family who are trans.  Anna's godmother is trans.  My college roommate is trans.  We used to joke about what was in the water in our community that so many people are trans.  Honestly, I'm not joking about it anymore.  At the public high school of 2300, fully a third of the teens born female are trans or nonbinary.  A THIRD.  That is a stunning percentage, and frankly, I think it either has to be a socially constructed one or there is some sort of environmental issue.  There are also a number of kids who were born male who are trans, but the numbers are far less and they seem to be mostly trans, not nonbinary.  I would never in a million years have predicted Anna as nb.  She was the kid who despite all my attempts at promoting no gender rolls wanted princess dress up clothes, ballet, and dolls, rather than legos or blocks.  It was fine, and she was a wonderful kid, but she was pretty stereotypically female.  She loved nail polish and playing with make up, despite the fact that I don't use either of those things.  When puberty hit, it was pretty clear that she was probably pretty strongly on the lesbian side of sexual orientation spectrum, but the gender issues seemed to crop up almost overnight.  She has expressed a dislike of periods and boobs, but honestly....NOBODY likes periods and boobs (at least big boobs) are seriously inconvenient.  When I've talked to her about what nonbinary means to her, she indicates that gender doesn't seem to be a part of her identity, that she doesn't really FEEL like a girl.  But, neither do I.  I guess it never occurred to me that gender was a primary identifier for anyone.  I don't feel uncomfortable in any way identifying as female, but I've often found it easier to make friends with men than with women.  And except for situations around childbirth and breastfeeding, gender was never at all important.  Agender seems to be a good way to describe it.  

The whole situation is just strange.

[unsinkable]

1 hour ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

 

When introducing my adult, gender-neutral child (Gnc), I'll either say "my firstborn..." or "my eldest".  If they weren't firstborn, I would likely vary that to "middle child" or "youngest".  I use "offspring" once in awhile, but only in very informal settings, said in a joking way to avoid sound like I'm describing livestock.

Interestingly, my Gnc doesn't mind being called "Darling Daughter" because it's more of a nickname (which we've used forever) than a gender identifier for them.  They've said it's okay for younger sister to use "My sister".  We don't use those words, typically, but if something slips out, it doesn't bother Gnc.  

Thank you for the insight.

I feel like it is so natural that when introducing someone to say our relationships that I keep thinking of other situations where it might come up. You and Farra r have given me a lot to mull over.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

43 minutes ago, Terabith said:

This is an interesting question.  I think singular they is the way of the future.  It seems to be preferred among most nb individuals; it has a long history in English, and it's usually the easiest solution.  

Now...the notion of nonbinary seems to be occurring FAR more frequently than it used to be, and I have questions about that.  My oldest identifies as nonbinary, although she still uses primarily she/ her pronouns.  Her significant other, however, also identifies as nonbinary but uses they/ them pronouns.  This has taken me by surprise.  We've had a number of friends who are very close to the family who are trans.  Anna's godmother is trans.  My college roommate is trans.  We used to joke about what was in the water in our community that so many people are trans.  Honestly, I'm not joking about it anymore.  At the public high school of 2300, fully a third of the teens born female are trans or nonbinary.  A THIRD.  That is a stunning percentage, and frankly, I think it either has to be a socially constructed one or there is some sort of environmental issue.  There are also a number of kids who were born male who are trans, but the numbers are far less and they seem to be mostly trans, not nonbinary.  I would never in a million years have predicted Anna as nb.  She was the kid who despite all my attempts at promoting no gender rolls wanted princess dress up clothes, ballet, and dolls, rather than legos or blocks.  It was fine, and she was a wonderful kid, but she was pretty stereotypically female.  She loved nail polish and playing with make up, despite the fact that I don't use either of those things.  When puberty hit, it was pretty clear that she was probably pretty strongly on the lesbian side of sexual orientation spectrum, but the gender issues seemed to crop up almost overnight.  She has expressed a dislike of periods and boobs, but honestly....NOBODY likes periods and boobs (at least big boobs) are seriously inconvenient.  When I've talked to her about what nonbinary means to her, she indicates that gender doesn't seem to be a part of her identity, that she doesn't really FEEL like a girl.  But, neither do I.  I guess it never occurred to me that gender was a primary identifier for anyone.  I don't feel uncomfortable in any way identifying as female, but I've often found it easier to make friends with men than with women.  And except for situations around childbirth and breastfeeding, gender was never at all important.  Agender seems to be a good way to describe it.  

The whole situation is just strange.

 

I've had all the same thoughts as you.  I used to think it was all a product of social media.  I learned from this thread that it originated in university gender studies.  That's new to me.  I read an article that sudden onset gender dysphoria (as opposed to early onset gender dysphoria) is a really new thing (like only started 3-4 yrs ago), that it affects mostly white girls who already have some emotional problems, and that it tends to happen in groups, and that the ideas are spread through social media.  

When my dd declared that she was non-binary, at age 21, I was blown away. (I'm using dd here because Ngc was still "dd" to me at the time) I thought it was just a bandwagon, an imaginary epidemic created by girls who were uncomfortable with their bodies (like everyone), and needed something to be angsty about. I had felt for those kids who knew from a very early age that they were actually the opposite gender, but my dd didn't fit into that group. Yes, dd had had a very hard time fitting in socially for her entire life, but she was very introverted and a deep thinker, and she was homeschooled through 8th grade, and so was shielded from the whole school-based social construct. Yes, she had a visceral repulsion to anything frilly or ruffly from infancy, but she had all sorts of sensory issues, and I never really liked frilly things either, so no big deal there.  Yes, she liked to play with cars, but she never drove them around and made vroom-vroom sounds like her brother.  Instead, she would arrange them in a circle where they would chat with each other.  Yes, she had lots of anxiety and stressed over just about everything, but she would grow out of all that.  She was very bright, especially with math, so she was probably just "one of those stereotypical, nerdy engineers," like her dad.  Everything would come together once she got into engineering school and found "her people".

WRONG.

She did very well in school.  Switched from engineering to math after one semester, then did three years of a math major with a high gpa.  What we couldn't see (because she was so far away at school) was that she was tailspinning, on her way to a major nervous breakdown (whatever they're calling that nowadays).  We tried eliminating all the things that were strangling her (math classes, the school, worry about the future job prospects, etc).  She switched to the university close to home, and she switched majors to the one thing she loved, and the one thing that would allow her to hold herself together, even though it would be difficult to support herself in that field.  

At her new school, she became familiar with the rhetoric of gender identity, and adopted the description of neutral gender/non-binary for herself, changed her name to a gender neutral one, and asked us to use it, along with the pronouns they/them/their. They don't wish to transition to male, they just don't fit in with how they understand female.  It has been a year that we've been living with these changes.  Gnc has a wonderful counselor, they're dealing with all the "stuff" from childhood and high school that have plagued them their whole life. Ngc is mostly happy, for the first time ever.  They are more comfortable in their own skin, and they have a solid sense of who they are and what they want.  I am happy to have my dc back, and I can see a time when they will be thriving.

There's still a ways to go. Honestly, I hope my gnc comes to the point that they can see that there are *lots* of ways to be a woman, and will release the non-binary restrictions, but we're not there yet. If I push that idea, I will push my firstborn child away from me and our family, and I risk losing them forever (either by them disappearing or ending their own life). I have seen that happen with my cousin when she rejected her transgender son, and I will not do that to my dear child.  I will love my dc, and I will support them, and I will do the linguistic gymnastics necessary to keep them on the path to emotional health.  They are coming to terms with the fact that the whole world is not going to change around them. We shall see where all this leads.  Perhaps Gnc, along with other non-binaries, really have felt this way their entire lives, but just now have the vocabulary to understand and share what they're experiencing.  I don't know.

Parenting is hard, and it lasts a lot longer than 18 years.

 

[scholastica]

25 minutes ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

 

I've had all the same thoughts as you.  I used to think it was all a product of social media.  I learned from this thread that it originated in university gender studies.  That's new to me.  I read an article that sudden onset gender dysphoria (as opposed to early onset gender dysphoria) is a really new thing (like only started 3-4 yrs ago), that it affects mostly white girls who already have some emotional problems, and that it tends to happen in groups, and that the ideas are spread through social media.  

When my dd declared that she was non-binary, at age 21, I was blown away. (I'm using dd here because Ngc was still "dd" to me at the time) I thought it was just a bandwagon, an imaginary epidemic created by girls who were uncomfortable with their bodies (like everyone), and needed something to be angsty about. I had felt for those kids who knew from a very early age that they were actually the opposite gender, but my dd didn't fit into that group. Yes, dd had had a very hard time fitting in socially for her entire life, but she was very introverted and a deep thinker, and she was homeschooled through 8th grade, and so was shielded from the whole school-based social construct. Yes, she had a visceral repulsion to anything frilly or ruffly from infancy, but she had all sorts of sensory issues, and I never really liked frilly things either, so no big deal there.  Yes, she liked to play with cars, but she never drove them around and made vroom-vroom sounds like her brother.  Instead, she would arrange them in a circle where they would chat with each other.  Yes, she had lots of anxiety and stressed over just about everything, but she would grow out of all that.  She was very bright, especially with math, so she was probably just "one of those stereotypical, nerdy engineers," like her dad.  Everything would come together once she got into engineering school and found "her people".

WRONG.

She did very well in school.  Switched from engineering to math after one semester, then did three years of a math major with a high gpa.  What we couldn't see (because she was so far away at school) was that she was tailspinning, on her way to a major nervous breakdown (whatever they're calling that nowadays).  We tried eliminating all the things that were strangling her (math classes, the school, worry about the future job prospects, etc).  She switched to the university close to home, and she switched majors to the one thing she loved, and the one thing that would allow her to hold herself together, even though it would be difficult to support herself in that field.  

At her new school, she became familiar with the rhetoric of gender identity, and adopted the description of neutral gender/non-binary for herself, changed her name to a gender neutral one, and asked us to use it, along with the pronouns they/them/their. They don't wish to transition to male, they just don't fit in with how they understand female.  It has been a year that we've been living with these changes.  Gnc has a wonderful counselor, they're dealing with all the "stuff" from childhood and high school that have plagued them their whole life. Ngc is mostly happy, for the first time ever.  They are more comfortable in their own skin, and they have a solid sense of who they are and what they want.  I am happy to have my dc back, and I can see a time when they will be thriving.

There's still a ways to go. Honestly, I hope my gnc comes to the point that they can see that there are *lots* of ways to be a woman, and will release the non-binary restrictions, but we're not there yet. If I push that idea, I will push my firstborn child away from me and our family, and I risk losing them forever (either by them disappearing or ending their own life). I have seen that happen with my cousin when she rejected her transgender son, and I will not do that to my dear child.  I will love my dc, and I will support them, and I will do the linguistic gymnastics necessary to keep them on the path to emotional health.  They are coming to terms with the fact that the whole world is not going to change around them. We shall see where all this leads.  Perhaps Gnc, along with other non-binaries, really have felt this way their entire lives, but just now have the vocabulary to understand and share what they're experiencing.  I don't know.

Parenting is hard, and it lasts a lot longer than 18 years.

 

Thank you for sharing all of this. That takes courage.

[SKL]

5 hours ago, unsinkable said:

For me, It'd be awkward to say, "This is my child, Chris" when introducing an adult. And offspring sounds almost clinical and seems more like what you'd hear in a nature program. 

I aprreciate the answer. 

Also, "offspring" doesn't work for adoptees.