Aggressive men

[Scarlett]

I was married for 26 years to my sons father.  Ds was not born until we had been married for 16 1/2 years.  He was 9 when we divorced.  

My xh had this thing where he pretended to hurt me.....like pretend punching, or pretend karate hits....I never understood it or got used to it.  Now my son does it to me.  I have called him on it repeatedly.  My current husband NEVER does this.  He is a physical man...very tall and big...and he is not necessarily always gentle with me...we tease back and forth and he is very strong...,but he NEVER pretends like he is going to hit me or punch me.  

Can someone explain the psychology behind such behavior?  My dh asked me to Google it....I said I will do better....I will ask the Hive.  🙂

[Scarlett]

And I want to add that I believe my xh loved me very much. He probably loved me more than he will ever love anyone ever for the rest of his life.  That is not arrogance speaking.  And I also believe my son loves me very very much. So I don’t believe there is any hidden ‘hate’ toward me by either of them.   

[TechWife]

I think the threat of physical violence is emotional abuse. I recommend counseling for all involved. Your DS needs to figure out what kind of person he is going to be and you & your dh have some serious work to do on determining boundaries and consequences so that you are protected. I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this, so very sorry. 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I think the threat of physical violence is emotional abuse. I recommend counseling for all involved. Your DS needs to figure out what kind of person he is going to be and you & your dh have some serious work to do on determining boundaries and consequences so that you are protected. I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this, so very sorry. 

Well I think you misunderstand. I don’t think it is a threat of physical violence. At all.   I am not in fear.  I am in annoyance.  I want to understand the psychology behind such behavior.  

[maize]

I think for some people feelings of anger bring with them an urge to act physically. For those who have internalized the social rules of not physically striking others the urge may still be expressed in less overt ways--balling the fists, striking the air, hitting a wall, throwing things around the room, banging a door...

I see it more as "I need to express my feelings somehow" than "I am threatening you"; at least, that's what I am doing if I throw a pillow at my husband (has happened) and it is certainly what I want to do when I'm so frustrated I want to break dishes by throwing them on the floor (so far I've resisted that one!)

Edited January 11, 2019 by maize

[ktgrok]

When he's angry or just joking around in a happy moment?

[Katy]

I need more information.  Everyone seems to be interpreting this as an action they take when they are angry, but when I read it I assumed it was more like a first grader on a playground, pulling the hair of the girl he likes - affection wrapped in something more masculine.  Which is entirely different than something done in anger.

[Selkie]

I've seen males joking around and pretending to hit each other, but I've never seen a male pretend to hit a female.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The son ia probably just copying what he saw his father doing. 

The ex sounds immature. Boys do fake punches at times for fun. 

[Joker]

Are you talking about in anger or just play? I am often the one here to pretend karate kick or gut punch dh. It's usually when we're joking around or having a silly argument where we're both laughing. He will usually catch my foot or hand and play back with me but it's nothing aggressive from either of us. I don't view it as aggressive anyway and we're usually both always laughing. I think I need more information. 

[moonflower]

maybe it's that desire to squeeze a cute thing phenomenon.  something came up recently in my google news feed.

[maize]

If it's not anger and is more joking then it is probably a form of play. If it bothers you he should learn to stop, that's just basic respect for others.

My kids and I play fight a lot. It's like kittens swiping at each other for fun.

[Scarlett]

Ok yes I need to clarify this is NOT in anger.  Nor was it with my xh.

[hjffkj]

Dh has been practicing martial arts since he was twelve and he does this to me. Usually, it is when he is already practicing a move over and over while he walks around the house. Then I may say something that draws his attention to me and that turns me into a moving target while he's continues ti practice and answers my question. Sometimes he'll also just randomly pretend to attack me. That is usually to check my reaction time and if self defense moves are ingrained in my brain or just how he initiates practice.

There is zero aggression during all of this. He does the same to the kids and we all enjoy participating.

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I've seen males joking around and pretending to hit each other, but I've never seen a male pretend to hit a female.

This is what it feels like.  Goofing off in an inappropriate manner with one’s wife/mother. 

 

[Scarlett]

Just now, hjffkj said:

Dh has been practicing martial arts since he was twelve and he does this to me. Usually, it is when he is already practicing a move over and over while he walks around the house. Then I may say something that draws his attention to me and that turns me into a moving target while he's continues ti practice and answers my question. Sometimes he'll also just randomly pretend to attack me. That is usually to check my reaction time and if self defense moves are ingrained in my brain or just how he initiates practice.

There is zero aggression during all of this. He does the same to the kids and we all enjoy participating.

Yes.  This.  Does it not annoy you?

[maize]

So...it's just for fun.

I doubt there's any big psychological reason. It's a physical joke of sorts.

[Scarlett]

Ok see?  It isn’t that weird!  Thisis why I love this board.  

i often  feel like it is a form of affection gone wrong.  

[Bootsie]

It may be similar to my sister walking up and tickling me.   

[maize]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

This is what it feels like.  Goofing off in an inappropriate manner with one’s wife/mother. 

 

I do this with my kids all the time myself, so I don't see it as a generically inappropriate way to interact with a wife or mother.

I don't do it with Dh because he wouldn't like it, he's a very non physical sort of person in most ways. 

That's where the respect for others bit comes in. Your son should stop not because he shouldn't interact that way with his mother but because he shouldn't interact that way with someone he knows is bothered by it.

Edited January 11, 2019 by maize

[hjffkj]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Yes.  This.  Does it not annoy you?

 

Not at all, but I practice martial arts as well so for me it is more practice and another way we bond.

[hjffkj]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

This is what it feels like.  Goofing off in an inappropriate manner with one’s wife/mother. 

 

 

It is only inappropriate if you don't want to interact that way and someone doesn't respect that.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

It may be similar to my sister walking up and tickling me.   

Yes.  Lol...I imagine it is just like that.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, hjffkj said:

 

It is only inappropriate if you don't want to interact that way and someone doesn't respect that.

Good point.  I don’t understand why it bothers me.  I just feel violated.  Even though I can clearly see he is just goofing off and showing his Cheerios. 

[Scarlett]

20 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

When he's angry or just joking around in a happy moment?

This is what is so confusing to me....with both my xh and my ds....it was/is always in a moment of feeling good...joy...happiness......which feels ruined to me when someone is pretending to hurt me. 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Patty Joanna said:

My son is a poker.  He pokes.  I hate it and it annoys the tar out of me and I told him to stop it and he finally did.  

He pokes his girlfriend and she pokes him back and they poke each other and dissolve into giggles. So he should marry her.  

Ds and I do fake girl-fight where we wave our hands at each other’s faces about a foot away and we think we are hilarious.   (We are!!!)  

Dh and Ds do “movie stunt punching” in slo-mo and make noises like bears and lions and think they are so tough but they are just ridiculous so I go pour myself a proper cup of tea and mock them in my heart.

It never crossed my mind that we needed to be concerned that we were expressing subconscious feelings.  Now that it’s been brought up, though, I’m not the least concerned about it.  

If it annoys you, he should stop it.  That’s just common courtesy.  

Your entire post made me lol...so thank you for that.l.and thanks for making me think it is maybe just not that big of a deal.   

[Scarlett]

I say to ds ‘ why do you pretend to hurt your mother.....? ‘ and he says ‘why do you refer to yourself in the third person.?’

 

that makes me laugh.

[Katy]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Good point.  I don’t understand why it bothers me.  I just feel violated.  Even though I can clearly see he is just goofing off and showing his Cheerios. 

 

7 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

This is what is so confusing to me....with both my xh and my ds....it was/is always in a moment of feeling good...joy...happiness......which feels ruined to me when someone is pretending to hurt me. 

 

I don't think this is a big deal at all, but if it's important to you and you're feeling violated then you need to decide if you should change your feelings about it or insist he stop.  Something has to shift.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

 

I don't think this is a big deal at all, but if it's important to you and you're feeling violated then you need to decide if you should change your feelings about it or insist he stop.  Something has to shift.

Well here is the thing....if I understand it I will feel differently about it.  When I hear people I trust and respect say meh sorta normal...I feel better.  

[Murphy101]

I don't have patience for the making of excuses for this.

You've said you don't like it or find it funny repeatedly.

At that point, any neurotypical person over the age of 12 is old enough to understand to stop it.

It doesn't matter if they are angry or serious or joking or their daddy did it or they really love you or anything else.

No means no.

I'd be ticked off and eventually I'd scream at them to quit.

So either you need to decide it really doesn't bother you enough to be bothered to insist it stop or you need to make it clear that it shouldn't happen again.

 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

I don't have patience for the making of excuses for this.

You've said you don't like it or find it funny repeatedly.

At that point, any neurotypical person over the age of 12 is old enough to understand to stop it.

It doesn't matter if they are angry or serious or joking or their daddy did it or they really love you or anything else.

No means no.

I'd be ticked off and eventually I'd scream at them to quit.

So either you need to decide it really doesn't bother you enough to be bothered to insist it stop or you need to make it clear that it shouldn't happen again.

 

Thank you,,!   And although I do feel better that my son is probably not psychotic I also know I don’t like it.  So there is that.  

[gardenmom5]

 

36 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I've seen males joking around and pretending to hit each other, but I've never seen a male pretend to hit a female.

same with my sons.  an older son let me know - the "play fighting" was how males relate and I needed to chill about how they were relating to dudeling.

they have never done it with me.  

maybe when he does it, you can have him go clean a bathroom, or vacuum . . . . let him be useful . . . and hopefully get the message it's not appropriate.

[Scarlett]

My dh has gone to sleep crossways on our bed....I have to wake him soon so I can fit into the bed. But I am excited to tell him hey some people interact this way......but some don’t like it and I don’t have to like it either. It really just makes me appreciate our relationship....how he can grab me up and even rough me up....but it doesn’t feel the same.....with dh I feel loved and cherished....

[Farrar]

I haven't seen this behavior much. I think it doesn't matter if it's not in anger - it still seems to me like it's an attempt at dominance. And you've said you aren't okay with it. Your ds should stop. What do you say in the moment when he does it? I think if this were me, I'd stop, freeze, and call him out. If two people are in a relationship where this sort of faux roughhousing is okay, then fine. But him thinking it's okay for someone telling him it isn't... that's not going to serve him well in life.

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I haven't seen this behavior much. I think it doesn't matter if it's not in anger - it still seems to me like it's an attempt at dominance. And you've said you aren't okay with it. Your ds should stop. What do you say in the moment when he does it? I think if this were me, I'd stop, freeze, and call him out. If two people are in a relationship where this sort of faux roughhousing is okay, then fine. But him thinking it's okay for someone telling him it isn't... that's not going to serve him well in life.

Yes...exactly.  I do freeze and say WHY are you doing this, 

 

[SeaConquest]

It also sounds like a form of toxic masculinity to me. I emphasize to my boys repeatedly that no means no. Period.

Edited January 11, 2019 by SeaConquest

[Murphy101]

7 sons.

 I just had 6 juniors in college (only one is my child) at my house who broke my sleeper sofa wrestling around in the living room.

Seriously.

That happened an hour ago.

🙄

Now a theatre, a music business, a game theory, a biochem/psychology, and cyber security major are trying fix a sleeper sofa.

There's a crowbar, a hammer, and lots of muttering that a combined approx half a million dollars in education didn't teach anyone how to fix a sleeper sofa.

😆

I have no issues with young folks doing good natured rough housing. 

Good natured ends when anyone says it isn't funny to them.  Full stop.

[SKL]

Well, I do this with my kids rather often.  It is understood that nobody is in actual danger.  I am sure I learned it from my FOO.

I think it is related to a desire to be physical in a loving way, but where a hug or whatever doesn't seem timely.  Also the exercise reinforces the feeling of complete trust - that we would never hurt each other even though we might play around like that.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

7 sons.

 I just had 6 juniors in college (only one is my child) at my house who broke my sleeper sofa wrestling around in the living room.

Seriously.

That happened an hour ago.

🙄

Now a theatre, a music business, a game theory, a biochem/psychology, and cyber security major are trying fix a sleeper sofa.

There's a crowbar, a hammer, and lots of muttering that a combined approx half a million dollars in education didn't teach anyone how to fix a sleeper sofa.

😆

I have no issues with young folks doing good natured rough housing. 

Good natured ends when anyone says it isn't funny to them.  Full stop.

Yes, thank you, I am not some uptight prissy proper person....

[SKL]

I do agree that no means no, though.  If you have asked your son to stop and he keeps it up, I assume it is a habit that he finds hard to break.  Maybe suggest an alternative.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well, I do this with my kids rather often.  It is understood that nobody is in actual danger.  I am sure I learned it from my FOO.

I think it is related to a desire to be physical in a loving way, but where a hug or whatever doesn't seem timely.  Also the exercise reinforces the feeling of complete trust - that we would never hurt each other even though we might play around like that.

Yes.  I get this.   It I don’t like it. 

[caedmyn]

To me, if someone clearly indicates that something someone else is doing bothers them, and that person continues to do it, I'd probably think that the person doing the action is being passive aggressive, disrespectful, or a jerk on purpose, no matter how they play it off (to be clear, I'm talking about something that directly affects the other person, not "you have a really annoying laugh"-type stuff).

[caedmyn]

My boys who are all 10 and under occasionally do this to me.  I think it's disrespectful (even if they don't intend it that way...I think sometimes they do and sometimes they don't) so I tell them to stop.

[Murphy101]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, thank you, I am not some uptight prissy proper person....

Why do you say that?

You have every right to be a prissy uptight proper person. (Which is really just what people call anyone who doesn't think being a jerk is humorous and refuse to put up with it.)

It's not like anyone deserves to have another person act like they are going to hit them.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

Why do you say that?

You have every right to be a prissy uptight proper person. (Which is really just what people call anyone who doesn't think being a jerk is humorous and refuse to put up with it.)

It's not like anyone deserves to have another person act like they are going to hit them.

Well yes, of course you are right.  I guess the issue has mostly always been me feeling like I was being unreasonable.  You know.....to not want someone to pretend punch me,

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Good point.  I don’t understand why it bothers me.  I just feel violated.  Even though I can clearly see he is just goofing off and showing his Cheerios. 

 

If you have asked your son to stop (and asked your ex to stop) and neither respected this even though they realized you were serious, then it's perhaps more than just fun. Otherwise I would not be bothered but it's not something that we practice here. 

ETA: Just read your latest post and it sounds like they are turning around and blaming you which is disrespecting your boundaries.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Liz CA

[SKL]

There are things my kids do that I don't like, though they are just trying to be funny.  I don't ask them why they are doing it.  I decisively say "I don't like it" and demand that they stop.

Above, I may have missed something, but it looks like you have asked your son "why do you do that," but you have not let him know decisively that you want him to stop it.

It may take some time to lose the habit, but I think he will eventually stop if you make it clear you don't find it acceptable.

And, although I said I do this with my kids and my FOO did it, I don't believe my mom was ever involved in it.  It was understood that Mom wasn't someone you fake hit.  I also live with people you don't even think about fake hitting, no matter what mood you are in.  This isn't rocket science, but you do need to communicate your feelings about it since it has been going on for some time.

[MercyA]

I sometimes do this to my husband, making contact, but (usually) not very hard. He "blocks" me and we laugh about it. It's when we're in a good mood and joking around, often when he's teasing me. He doesn't seem to mind.

IDK. I'm a physical person. I like physical contact. It has always seemed like a playful thing to me.

My parents were very young when they got married and my brother and I wrestled around with my dad and each other a lot when we were little. There was no hidden meaning. We all thought the world of each other. It was just fun. 

I'm with others who say this probably isn't a big deal, but if you don't like it, of course your son should knock it off.

I have to ask--what does "showing his Cheerios" mean??? :) 

[elegantlion]

When ds was little he used to accidentally bump my heels with the grocery cart almost every visit. It became the running joke between us and we'd laugh when it happened after a few times. We still joke about me not walking in front of him. One day we were at IKEA and had a big cart and were in line and he was doing it on purpose. Someone chided him (he was like 18 at the time). I mentioned that it was a running joke and I was okay with it, then she made some snide remark and moved lines. For us, it's a way to show affection borne out of his cart accidents. To others, it might be annoying, to us it was bonding. 

Does your son's behavior bother you because it reminds you of his dad? I can see that happening. If it's his way of showing affection to you, you might need to help him find another way. 

One way I temper those actions that annoy me is to just grab ds up in a big hug and tell him how much I love him. His thing now is ask me what I'm going to feed him because he's hungry, sometimes right after I walk in the door, or if I'm just home for the weekend from school. Most times it's not a huge thing, but when I'm tired and hungry too, I find it  borderline annoying. That's when he gets the hug. 

 

[Chris in VA]

Agreeing you have a right to your own boundaries. I'm wondering what the hitting "symbolizes" to you? Do you have a core belief from your childhood that men don't hit women, or that Mom gets respect and hitting and playing that way is a no-no? Core beliefs don't have to be rational or defensible, but it is good to examine them and then choose to continue believing they are important to you or discard them. They rarely change without work. We all have them.