I kinda want a different church

[Ginevra]

This is complicated and I don’t know if I am willing to do anything about this yet. The church we attend appeals to dh and it has worked well for my kids. It is a big church of the contemporary ecumenical “seeker sensitive” type, although they are not doctrine-shy. They do have many “plusses” and I am not opposed to any major points in their philosophy or mission. 

But. I do not like that it’s so big. I have gone years without knowing a friend of mine also attends. I have run into people and said, “Hey! How long have you been coming here?” And they say, “Nine years.” I’m completely serious. 

Once in a while, I have gone to a little Lutheran church and one thing I like is they will do a prayer and they include things like, “Sister Mary Pat is having surgery this week,” or, “Brother Peter was in a car accident last week; he is okay but was pretty banged up.” The church is so tiny, congregants will literally call out a prayer request from his or her seat. I like that it’s this close community where people are known and they share one another’s burdens. I don’t have that at my big church. Literally people have died from our congregation in tragic accidents and it was never even mentioned from the pulpit. I think sheer size prohibits it. 

I’m not placing all the blame on my church, because I have failed to access the resources that help create community within the big church. I have not joined any small groups or studies. (I have a reason/excuse for not doing this; I am an inconsistent mix of belief and doubt and I don’t really want to parade that in a group.) 

I just kind of want to go to the little Lutheran church, but dh would most likely not go at all. He is not a particularly spiritual person. He wants things like a great band and coffee before service on Sundays. The little church would also be an utter failure for ds14. There is no “children’s ministry” to speak of, only a tiny posse of little pre-K/early elementary kids who go to a children’s church after singing, during the sermon. Because of the service times, I could probably go to the little church by myself after the service at the big church with my family, but...you know. That’s not really the solution I’m looking for. 

There probably isn’t advice that can really help me. I mostly just have to decide what matters to me more and what I am willing to give up (for now, at least). I’m just feeling a little sad because we went to Christmas service this evening (they have seven options over three days) and, other than one friend I know from homeschooling who knows I am fighting cancer, nobody interacted with me or even knows anything about our issues right now. I think to myself, “I could literally die and it wouldn’t be even a blip on the radar screen at this church; the only people who would know are those in my homeschoôl community who happen to attend here, too.” 🎻 (This is my tiny violin.) 

Thanks for reading my little pity party. 

[ScoutTN]

Oh, Quill, I hope you can find a church home that is more of a family! And where you are welcome, doubts and all. I will pray for you about that. I hope Christ brings you joy and peace, even in your struggles.

 

[Junie]

(((Quill)))

Maybe you can find a church that would be a fit for all of you?

My church is largish -- about 500 -- and we sound like a happy mix of what you all would want.  Coffee, large youth program, prayer requests/announcements.

I *think* that you live in a place that might have a "just right" church that is not too big or too small.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

My sil and her family go to a church like you described.  It is definitely not for me, for all the reasons you’ve described.  But it does work well for them, but they’re huge extroverts so maybe that’s it?  Idk, just thinking.   Is there a reason you can’t attend one church while dh and ds attend another?   I know some friends that do that and it works well for them.   I haven’t been to church in forever.  I’m still trying to figure out what I want.  I miss it though.  Praying you find the right place and the right people.  (((Hugs))) friend. 

He wouldn’t go. It’s not that I “make” him or that he goes to please me, but he will not take the initiative to go if its not where I am already going. He has never gone to church if I am not home or not going. 

[alisoncooks]

I totally feel you! I'm unhappy with our current church. DH and the kids like it. This church is convenient/beneficial for DH's job (also ministry -- not church -- but works with this church). 

But I do not feel at home there. At all. We recently attended the Christmas service; I was really looking forward to beauty and peace and carols. What I got was a rock and roll, super-hip, barely 1-2 traditional carols service. I was so disappointed...again...by this church. 

Sigh. I don't want to go somewhere without my family; I feel it's important to attend together. 

[sassenach]

Disclosure: Dh is a pastor, our church is small, but we've also worked at megachurches.  I have a strong bent toward people commiting to stay at the church they are at instead of expecting a move to "fix" whatever problem they have. IMO, church is a long-term relationship that will ebb and flow like all relationships.

With all that said, I totally get where you are coming from. Your feelings are valid. Big churches definitely lose people if they choose not to plug in. I really think that you should try to join a small group within your church and parade all of those beliefs and thoughts on out. Wherever you go, you probably won't feel known if you keep those hidden. There's no reason you'll feel more comfortable sharing your doubts in the brand new, small church. My guess is that you'll still feel unknown, even if you're more known. 

Megachurch Sunday mornings are not for being known. And truthfully, neither are small church Sunday mornings. Being known generally comes from being in community outside of Sundays. Not only that, but really being known comes with putting everything out on the table. No matter what you choose, I think your drive towards deeper intimacy is good and holy, and I pray that God makes it clear how and with whom He intends you to forge deeper relationships.

And I'm so sorry for using the term "being known" 8 billion times. Lazy writing.

Edited December 24, 2018 by sassenach

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

We recently attended the Christmas service; I was really looking forward to beauty and peace and carols. What I got was a rock and roll, super-hip, barely 1-2 traditional carols service. I was so disappointed...again...by this church. 

Yup. That is another thing I love at the Lutheran church. Traditional hymns. Organ music. It’s nice. I have nothing against upbeat music or modern songs, but I love old hymns, especially Christmas hymns. 

My church did do several traditional Christmas songs, but most of them were “modernized” renditions. This also bugs me because it’s like you know the song but no you don’t. They did do Silent Night with personal candles in traditional song type, which I liked. 

[Ottakee]

Quill.....I could have written your post, almost word for word.  I am currently attending a church with a small Saturday evening service and 2 larger Sunday am services.  Attendance is 1000-1200 (combined 3 services)on regular weekends and even more on Holiday weekends.   Service is contemporary but preaching is solid (more seeker friendly) and good doctrine.

My kids love it and the lighter sermons are easier for them to understand.  I though wish for a bit more meat, people that carry their own Bibles, more hymns, etc.

I don't like not really knowing people despite attending weekly for 7 years.   Like you, I have not done the small group thing though.

This past year life totally blew up.  I did get meals twice a week for 4 weeks and a monthly card (but not signed by anyone in particular).  One church minister went 3-4 times to see now ex dh in jail but really that was it.  Most of the congregation has no idea what happened....good in some ways....but also I didn't feel like I had any support from the church.

I so want to find something else but not sure it would be good for my kids to have one more major upheaval in their lives right now.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Megachurch Sunday mornings are not for being known. And truthfully, neither are small church Sunday mornings. Being known generally comes from being in community outside of Sundays. Not only that, but really being known comes with putting everything out on the table. No matter what you choose, I think your drive towards deeper intimacy is good and holy, and I pray that God makes it clear how and with whom He intends you to forge deeper relationships with.

Yeah. That’s a tough one. Not that I think you’re wrong. I’ve just experienced so many billions of times, “Wait. Are you saying you don’t believe ————?” It’s not safe and I hate feeling like people are saying, “there goes that heretic...” 

But thanks for praying in my favor. 

[SamanthaCarter]

 DH and I were members of a very large church for the first 6.5 years of our marriage, and we found that the only way to know and be known is by committing to a community group. Think of it as a small church within a large church. Do you really think that in a church like you describe, you are one of the only people with doubts and inconsistancies? It’s perfectly fine! Get thee to a small group! 

I do understand though. When we moved away, our church had exhausted us in more than one way. The one we chose here is a great size, small enough to be known, and for everybody to play a part in church life, large enough to have well rounded ministry. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by SamanthaCarter
Spelling

[Ottakee]

I LOVW my friends church.  Rural country church (different denomination but solid preaching...ok, her dh is the pastor, buy still) with mostly traditional hymns, an organ, wide mix of ages from birth to elderly.  I have only visited 5-6 times but know more people there than at my own church (not quite but it seems that way).

Problem is it is 2 hours away so not doable other than when we are visiting you there.

[Frances]

10 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yeah. That’s a tough one. Not that I think you’re wrong. I’ve just experienced so many billions of times, “Wait. Are you saying you don’t believe ————?” It’s not safe and I hate feeling like people are saying, “there goes that heretic...” 

But thanks for praying in my favor. 

The local Methodist Church we attended for many years specifically made a point of saying they welcomed people whatever they believed and wherever they were at on their spiritual journey. My husband and I came from pretty different religious backgrounds and definitely did not believe everything, but we still felt quite welcome. But I know Methodist churches can vary quite a bit depending on region of the country. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, SamanthaCarter said:

 DH and I were members of a very large church for the first 6.5 years of our marriage, and we found that the only way to know and be known is by committing to a community group. Think of it as a small church within a large church. Do you really think that in a church like you describe, you are one of the only people with doubts and inconsitincies? It’s perfectly fine! Get thee to a small group! 

I do understand though. When we moved away, our church has exhausted us in more than one way. The one we chose here is a great size, small enough to be known, and for everybody to play a part in church life, large enough to have well rounded ministry. 

I was in a small group for women a long time ago at a former church >16 years ago. But my beliefs were much more standard at that time. I think one big difference is that I’m not a newbie sharing her first tiny doubts, kwim? I’m post-apologetics. I know the “apologetics answers” to the doubts or things I don’t believe, so it will probably only annoy me and frustrate the other person if they are trying to reassure my doubts.

This can also go the other direction, BTW; I get annoyed with people who are still on their God-honeymoon who haven’t been splatted by life since God. I talked to a guy like this recently. He bugged me. I could see he had this thought that if only he had been raised in a Christian home like I had been, he wouldn’t have made big mistakes and his life would be all hunky-dory. He really rubbed me wrong and I thought, “This is the kind of person I don’t want to be in small group with.” 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

The local Methodist Church we attended for many years specifically made a point of saying they welcomed people whatever they believed and wherever they were at on their spiritual journey. My husband and I came from pretty different religious backgrounds and definitely did not believe everything, but we still felt quite welcome. But I know Methodist churches can vary quite a bit depending on region of the country. 

The thing is, a church may hold this as their value/mission, but individual people still have their own response. The church I attend right now always gives the caveat that you are welcome wherever you are, even if far from God and not sure why you agreed to come. Their M.O. is to not scare people away with weirdness or extremism, which is nice, but there’s still a general thought that if someone doesn’t believe XYZ, they probably just haven’t been given the information yet. That is not the case for me. Someone who is a small group leader is probably not well-prepared to discuss issues beyond the Lee Strobel-esque apologetics. 

[SamanthaCarter]

16 minutes ago, Quill said:

M.O. is to not scare people away with weirdness or extremism, which is nice, but there’s still a general thought that if someone doesn’t believe XYZ, they probably just haven’t been given the information yet. That is not the case for me. Someone who is a small group leader is probably not well-prepared to discuss issues beyond the Lee Strobel-esque apologetics. 

I’m going to make a big assumption here, because in my old church, one of the pastors really had his thumb on the pulse of the community groups. Hopefully yours is the same, because I could see how healthy and useful that was. 

If you’re brave enough, find that pastor in your church. Tell him what you said here. He SHOULD be able to match you up with the group you need. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by SamanthaCarter

[mom2scouts]

I understand your problem. We go to a church like you describe and we've been there for 20 years, but lately I don't feel part of the church family. We used to have Sunday morning Bible studies and the group would also have monthly activities outside of Sunday mornings. We got to know a group of people really well that way. It also gave us a reason not to miss church because we knew the people in our group would notice if we missed too often.  They stopped doing that and it became trendy among similar churches to have small groups meet during the week. It's hard for us to add one more thing to our work/school week so we've been hesitant. Over the years, all my friends at church have moved on to other churches for one reason or another or moved away to other states, so I often feel out of place. Like me, you probably know that the only way to get what you're looking for is to join a small group. That's where people know your struggles and call out prayer requests for specific people. I know you're hesitant because of where you are in your faith right now, but if you can find the right group I think they'll understand and be an encouragement to you.

[Guest]

@SamanthaCarterI don’t think I have that boldness in me. You probably aren’t wrong, though. 

[Scarlett]

All I can say is that our congregations are kept at roughly 100.  Bigger than that and you just can’t feel close to everyone.  

[MercyA]

Oh, Quill. I'm lonely just reading your post. 😞 I do go to a church in which people call out prayer requests from the pews, and cry when bad news is shared, and hug with regularity. So I feel for what you are missing. We also wouldn't care if you're a heretic 😉; we'd just be glad to have you with us. We have about 150-175 people. (It's a Wesleyan church, if anyone is curious.)

I'd suggest a ladies' Bible study, but I know you're not comfortable with that right now. I will pray for you, though. I wish I could do more.

Huge hugs.

 

[SamanthaCarter]

Honestly, I don’t like ladies bible studies. Too much “I feel like.....” so often not enough depth. 😕

[Liz CA]

ETA: Okay so now I figured out you are already / have been in small groups. I wonder if you were in a group that fit well. I would not feel "well placed" in a group of young adults exclusively. I do like a good mix of ages. If your desire is deeper study than what has been offered, you could look at diverse studies often offered in larger churches like Kay Arthur or Bible Fellowship (never have done this one but some people said it was deeper than many others). These days there are also online chat groups solely discussing biblical issues. Again haven't tried those but one can always try once and see how it goes.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Liz CA

[forty-two]

I go to a small Lutheran church - my dh is the pastor.  (It's been quite a change - previously we've been at med-large churches, 500-800 members.  Now dh is literally the only full-time staff member.)  My three kids were a full third of the Christmas program cast.

I too really enjoy traditional hymns and carols (and liturgy).  Dh does both a Christmas Eve and a Christmas Day service, both Communion services, with the Christmas Day service being a lessons & carols service, which I really enjoy.  (The kids are looking forward to it, too.)

Idk, I don't really have much advice - I'm praying for you, though.  I do know that even with the built-in advantage of being the pastor's wife - so that plenty of people *want* to get to know you - it's all-too-easy to keep things all surface-y and at-a-distance.  And that once you've gotten into that habit, time alone isn't enough to build relationships - you have to change how you interact to change the results.

But sometimes a change in environment helps, too.  I'm able to use different talents here, including ones that matter a lot to me that I didnt really have an outlet for before, and it's a nice change.

[Ellie]

14 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Honestly, I don’t like ladies bible studies. Too much “I feel like.....” so often not enough depth. 😕

My favorite Bible studies have been Precept studies., specifically the Precept Upon Precept studies (Precept Ministries have several different kinds of studies; PUP are the most in depth.)

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

This can also go the other direction, BTW; I get annoyed with people who are still on their God-honeymoon who haven’t been splatted by life since God. I talked to a guy like this recently. He bugged me. I could see he had this thought that if only he had been raised in a Christian home like I had been, he wouldn’t have made big mistakes and his life would be all hunky-dory. He really rubbed me wrong and I thought, “This is the kind of person I don’t want to be in small group with.” 

 

But Quill... 🙂 he may need to be in a small group with you so he learns that there are some fallacies in his thinking.

[MercyA]

34 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Honestly, I don’t like ladies bible studies. Too much “I feel like.....” so often not enough depth. 😕

I get that...but don't know if that is specifically a problem with ladies' Bible studies or just modern American Bible studies in general. Maybe I should have just said "small group." :) 

My favorite kind of study is just going through a book of the Bible together. I wasn't thinking specifically of any particular kind of study or author; just being part of a smaller group.

Edited December 24, 2018 by MercyA

[forty-two]

25 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Honestly, I don’t like ladies bible studies. Too much “I feel like.....” so often not enough depth. 😕

That's one of the things I really appreciate about our new church - the midweek lay-lead Bible study studies actual books of the Bible, using a study guide that goes reasonably in-depth (and that is actually faithful to our doctrine).  I semi-jokingly told my dh that this Bible study has the least amount of heresy of any I've been in :shifty:.  (It's also coed, but I think a women's group run the same way would be good, too.)  It also is set up so that you really need to have done the homework, so people come prepared, and that adds to the informed depth of the discussion.

Edited December 24, 2018 by forty-two

[forty-two]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

 Someone who is a small group leader is probably not well-prepared to discuss issues beyond the Lee Strobel-esque apologetics. 

That might be a benefit of a small church.  I mean, my pastor dh has a Sunday morning Bible study that has a small-group size and atmosphere - everyone freely asks questions and makes comments.  But he's a lot more prepared than your average small group leader (pastors in my denomination have a four year master of divinity degree) - he can handle more difficult questions and issues.  And in a small church, he's very accessible, probably far more so than the teaching pastor at a megachurch.

[livetoread]

I’m going to offer what you might not want to hear, but being a person of serious doubts in a church and trying to sincerely bond is hard. I speak from experience. People can be lovely and warm and kind, but if they aren’t also experiencing serious theological doubts, it is a big gulf, at least it was for me. My theological struggles weren’t theirs, and while everyone has doubts and struggles, there is a limit to the comfort level of those who continue to attend church and continue to believe in the basic tenets. Honest discussions made most people uncomfortable, and they didn’t want to be trying to defend basic things like, does a deity exist, when their issues were more like I didn’t feel as close to God today, or I’m not sure what God is trying to teach me, etc. Serious doubts are often fine for a short season, but when the answers they find comforting don’t comfort you as well, it’s hard.

My churches were kind and warm, but eventually I realized I didn’t belong because we didn’t share even the basics anymore. I wanted to hang onto my faith, they wanted to help, but in the end everyone felt like a failure when that wasn’t what was happening. I’m not saying that will be your outcome, just saying I know how hard it can be to want to bond, but having a spiritual gulf there.

 

[forty-two]

19 minutes ago, MercyA said:

My favorite kind of study is just going through a book of the Bible together.

Mine too.  I'm really enjoying my dh's Sunday morning Bible study.  We just finished Daniel and have started Matthew (he likes to alternate between OT and NT).  I never understood the prophecy part of Daniel - seemed so esoteric and impossible to make sense of - but working through it, it started to make sense and to come alive - I got how it fits in with the big picture of the Bible.  (At our old church he was the youth pastor, so his Sunday morning studies were with the high schoolers, where he went through a book of the Bible with them; he also had a mid-week adult study going through a different book,  but with littles I wasnt able to attend.  But there was no pastor-led Sunday morning adult study most of the year, just lay-lead classes, so most adults never really had a chance to have that kind of in-depth study, which I always thought was a real detriment.)

As well, I think it is really good for the pastor to be regularly teaching Bible studies, especially working verse by verse through a whole book of the Bible.  I've seen how much dh has learned, how many connections he makes to the books he's taught.  It's not just that parishioners are better off for having a regular pastor-led Bible study, but that the pastor is better off for it, too.

[Chris in VA]

Could you stay at your church and do a small group somewhere else? I am a graduate of EFM, Education for Ministry, which is an Episcopal, 4 year study program out of University of the South  (Sewanee). They are lay-led, meet once a week for about 3 hours, and are on the liberal side. You study OT, NT, Church history and theology, using a guide and several books. You also learn theological reflection and share your own perspective, which, by the rules of the group, is never ridiculed or disdained. 

I did not agree with everything or everybody, but I formed a bond with these dear people (all four years meet together, and there are about6 to 10 in a group). Maybe it would work for you.  

[forty-two]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

 (I have a reason/excuse for not doing this; I am an inconsistent mix of belief and doubt and I don’t really want to parade that in a group.)

 

Idk if it possible, or if you are interested, but could you have regular spiritual counseling-type discussions or more informal discussions with one of the pastors at your church?  I know dh has had regular discussions with members who are doubting, or who hold different beliefs.  It would both be more private than a small group, and with a more knowledgeable, more experienced discussion partner. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by forty-two

[ktgrok]

Are there any other options around you, that are smaller, but still have a youth ministry, etc? Also, if your husband likes coffee, the Episcopalians ALWAYS have coffee hour after the service. ALWAYS. It's pretty much a sacrament 🙂

Maybe look at some methodist, episcopal, lutheran, and presbyterian churches. Given your faith situation, the more mainstream versions of those denominations would work I would think, or a small united methodist church. 

[Bluegoat]

I didn't think coffee hour etc was so unusual at smaller churches?

Just my opinion of course but I think there is an optimal size range for a church and it is well well below the mega-church range.  Probably around 200 people, or something like that, depending on the structure etc.. As the numbers creep up I think the best approach is usually to split into separate churches. I'm not sure why it is that megachurches feel they need to be so very large.  If you have to have small groups to feel connected, and you have far too many people to be really known by the pastor, in what way is that really a congregation?  

Anyway - I might consider reassessing what would work or be good for things like a children's ministry - while I work in children's ministry myself I think that in many cases it really works to separate young people from the body of the church.  We don't run Sunday school and such past about age 12 -older kids attend and participate in the liturgy.  And they and also younger kids will serve roles in the church alongside people of all ages. There usually is a teen meet-up if there are teens, or sometimes special events, once we took the teen group to visit a monastery, but they are also welcome to go to things like adult study groups or quiet days.  All of which is to say - if you've always been in megachurches you may feel like certain things are what makes for a strong children's ministry, but that may not be the case.

Your dh might find, if he tried it, that he connected socially more than he'd have thought, just as a function of it being smaller.  

[Guest]

6 hours ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Honestly, I don’t like ladies bible studies. Too much “I feel like.....” so often not enough depth. 😕

I have thought this with women’s retreats sometimes. They have a featured speaker from the “popular Christian women” circuit; once, it was Jen Hatmaker. Another time, Angie Smith. (Both ladies are perfectly fine people; that isn’t my complaint. Rather, there is a lot of forced intimacy. 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, livetoread said:

I’m going to offer what you might not want to hear, but being a person of serious doubts in a church and trying to sincerely bond is hard. I speak from experience. People can be lovely and warm and kind, but if they aren’t also experiencing serious theological doubts, it is a big gulf, at least it was for me. My theological struggles weren’t theirs, and while everyone has doubts and struggles, there is a limit to the comfort level of those who continue to attend church and continue to believe in the basic tenets. Honest discussions made most people uncomfortable, and they didn’t want to be trying to defend basic things like, does a deity exist, when their issues were more like I didn’t feel as close to God today, or I’m not sure what God is trying to teach me, etc. Serious doubts are often fine for a short season, but when the answers they find comforting don’t comfort you as well, it’s hard.

My churches were kind and warm, but eventually I realized I didn’t belong because we didn’t share even the basics anymore. I wanted to hang onto my faith, they wanted to help, but in the end everyone felt like a failure when that wasn’t what was happening. I’m not saying that will be your outcome, just saying I know how hard it can be to want to bond, but having a spiritual gulf there.

 

Yes, exactly. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, forty-two said:

Idk if it possible, or if you are interested, but could you have regular spiritual counseling-type discussions or more informal discussions with one of the pastors at your church?  I know dh has had regular discussions with members who are doubting, or who hold different beliefs.  It would both be more private than a small group, and with a more knowledgeable, more experienced discussion partner. 

I don’t know if anything like that is available at my church. I think there’s an expectation if you have questions, you go to one of the classes meant for the burned, the broken, or those who are new to the faith. Those groups are led by “regular people,” not theologians. I don’t think that would help. 

Our senior pastor is not very accessible. He’s like a rock star one might glimpse near the water-fountains sometimes. 😏 There are a couple of Associate pastors whom I believe would be mentally prepared for my questions; I just don’t know if they do that. This is another way in which I feel like the big church makes me feel like an unknown nobody. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Are there any other options around you, that are smaller, but still have a youth ministry, etc? Also, if your husband likes coffee, the Episcopalians ALWAYS have coffee hour after the service. ALWAYS. It's pretty much a sacrament 🙂

Maybe look at some methodist, episcopal, lutheran, and presbyterian churches. Given your faith situation, the more mainstream versions of those denominations would work I would think, or a small united methodist church. 

There are definitely a zillion churches of every stripe. A friend of mine who “defected” from our church is at a Wesleyan church now, largely because she liked the youth program there. There is also a church that a few of dh’s friends attend. One of those friends defected from our church, too. In that case, this would be the easiest church to get dh on board with trying, but I don’t think it is much different from our church. So I would be changing churches but probably not getting anything closer to my goals. 

When we changed from a different church to this one (I think it’s been around 12 years ago), the previous church had, not just coffee, but bagels and donuts. You can’t imagine how bummed dh was to go to a new church that didn’t have bagels and donuts. 😄 His needs are pretty simple, it turns out. 

[lavender's green]

What if you go to the small church by yourself (or with whichever family members would like to come too) once or twice a month. To feed your soul. After a while of doing that you can decide if you want to make it more permanent or not.

Side note: I once kind of got burned by a tiny church. It was suffocating to have everyone on top of you, knowing you so well, nosing into your business and considering it their "Christian duty" to personally check up on you. It was a highly self-selected group that attracted certain types and after a while I felt like I was on a runaway crazy train. Different churches have different dynamics, and small church dynamics are different from large church dynamics. I'm surprised to find myself happier in the anonymity of my large church. Introvert that I am, it's somehow actually easier to focus on Christ. 

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

There are definitely a zillion churches of every stripe. A friend of mine who “defected” from our church is at a Wesleyan church now, largely because she liked the youth program there. There is also a church that a few of dh’s friends attend. One of those friends defected from our church, too. In that case, this would be the easiest church to get dh on board with trying, but I don’t think it is much different from our church. So I would be changing churches but probably not getting anything closer to my goals. 

When we changed from a different church to this one (I think it’s been around 12 years ago), the previous church had, not just coffee, but bagels and donuts. You can’t imagine how bummed dh was to go to a new church that didn’t have bagels and donuts. 😄 His needs are pretty simple, it turns out. 

But are there any other smaller churches, like the one you like? Maybe not quite that small even, but not a mega church? Also, FYI, there are donuts at every  Episcopal "coffee hour" I've been to, if that helps. Our current one has donuts (cut in half, since the kids tend to never finish theirs but you are welcome to take two halves) and mini muffins, coffee both regular and decaf, iced tea, lemonade, milk, and juice. Some parishes have a "donation" basket on the table somewhere to throw a few bucks in if you are inclined to help pay for the refreshments but mine doesn't. The adults socialize and the kids run around getting underfoot. 

[PeachyDoodle]

Oh, Quill. I'm sorry. It's so hard when no one place meets your family's spiritual needs. We have been there too.

I think I have asked you this before, but have you considered talking to the pastor at the Lutheran church? He or she might be better equipped to discuss your theological questions than the folks at your current church. Sometimes small church pastors are more accessible and used to these intimate types of discussions, and IME spiritual counseling is valued and even expected in the Lutheran church. It might not answer the question of which church to settle on, but might at least help you work through some of the other issues.

I totally get your feelings on the contemporary music and such. We left a church like that for a small LCMS congregation with a traditional liturgy and never looked back.

[ktgrok]

Also, it's okay to have seasons in life where you have different religious needs, and attend different places to meet that need. For a long time (12 years!!!) you've all attended a particular church because it met the needs of your husband and son. But maybe right now, with all that you are going through, it's okay to take time to meet YOUR needs. It doesn't have to be permanent. 

Also, have you tried bringing the 14 yr old with you? Could he attend services with you at the Lutheran church but whatever youth activities at the mega church, like evening youth group or whatever? Or, could you talk to your DH and explain that right now, with what you are going through, the peace of the Lutheran service speaks to you and you need his backing on that for a bit? Either ask him to attend, as a favor to you, or alternatively tell him that you think it is important that 14 yr old attend church, so you need DH to please commit to taking him for a while, so you are free to attend the Lutheran church? But if there is a way for DS to keep with the youth during the week or evenings at mega church while attending services together as a family at the smaller church I think that's an okay request to make of your family right now. Even if it's just every other week. 

Or, seek out a middle ground. Does your DH have any requirements theology wise? Like, is an Episcopal church going to be too "liberal"for him or will he be happy as long as there are donuts and coffee afterwards? Does your 14 yr old need a special thing during the service, or just a youth group that meets later, or? He might like the traditional liturgy more than you realize, if you let him try it. 

Also, in the meantime, this is the link to my current church. I had no idea it existed, I thought I'd checked out every catholic and episcopal parish in a reasonable driving distance from me, and just stumbled upon them in a desperate search for ...something. I think you'd like it. Obviously, it's too far for you to attend in real life, but they broadcast their services on youtube and maybe watching or listening as you go about your day would be helpful to you? Before I started Attending I actually binged watched several sermons in a row on youtube while cleaning and doing laundry 🙂 In the notes below the video they give the time stamp of when the sermon starts (and the children's sermon) if you don't want to listen through the music and readings. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwKJaWqKU_k1uKBpmvkDQiA

Edited December 24, 2018 by Ktgrok

[marbel]

I don't really have anything to add except to say that all the small churches I have attended (200 or fewer people) over the year have a robust coffee hour with food as well.   I have been with Orthodox Presbyterian or Presbyterian Church of America for 25ish  years now. Some folks can be snobby in terms of how well-grounded everyone's theology is, but in my experience most, including the pastors and elders, are not.  A similar denomination is Evangelical Presbyterian - in terms of beliefs, I mean; I don't know about their coffee hour habits. 

I think your best thing is to visit a bunch of different churches. I know visiting is not going to tell you everything you need to know.  And it may be some time before you can let out all your unedited thoughts to everyone. I am pretty sold in my faith and there are some people who I still can't say everything to. But it might not take too long to get a feel for the pastor and how he would react to your story. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by marbel

[HS Mom in NC]

Yeah, I understand.  I've been looking for a new church since June.  Church shopping is so frustrating. Since I'm the only believer in my family,I only have to satisfy myself when picking one, which is so much easier than your situation. I've seen similar issues to those you mention.  Ugh!

[SamanthaCarter]

1 hour ago, marbel said:

I don't really have anything to add except to say that all the small churches I have attended (200 or fewer people) over the year have a robust coffee hour with food as well.   I have been with Orthodox Presbyterian or Presbyterian Church of America for 25ish  years now. Some folks can be snobby in terms of how well-grounded everyone's theology is, but in my experience most, including the pastors and elders, are not.  A similar denomination is Evangelical Presbyterian - in terms of beliefs, I mean; I don't know about their coffee hour habits. 

I think your best thing is to visit a bunch of different churches. I know visiting is not going to tell you everything you need to know.  And it may be some time before you can let out all your unedited thoughts to everyone. I am pretty sold in my faith and there are some people who I still can't say everything to. But it might not take too long to get a feel for the pastor and how he would react to your story. 

Hello Presby sister! (OPC, ARP, PCA here)

My church is about 200 members and pushing 300 in attendance each week. We are building a church building with a big beautiful atrium, with a fireplace and dedicated coffee and donut area. The point is a comfortable place to encourage people to hang out. Our building was purposefully built to max out at 500. At which point, if we were consistently maxing out, we’d plant a new church. I believe that’s the majority mindset of our denomination (PCA). 

We can sometimes be brainiacs, but our jail ministry sometimes brings people in who ask the questions everybody else might be afraid to. 😂 Can be very grounding. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by SamanthaCarter

[DawnM]

I get it.  We have just left our church of 11 years.  We had a few friends there, but overall, we weren't one of the "in" crowd.  The in crowd were super involved, wealthy, and typically have a kids who are sports kids, cheerleaders, football players, etc....

For years, as my kids were in scouts, theater, etc.....I saw the in-crowd folks post on FB how wonderful the youth pastor was because he came to their son's football games, their daughter's cheer games, etc.....and typically only at the high school across the street or our church school.

This past year we have found a church near us, they don't have Sunday schools.  We walk in, listen, and leave.  That is all I want right now.  No super involvement.  

I know your situation is different, but that was my long way of saying that I feel your pain.

[marbel]

1 hour ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Hello Presby sister! (OPC, ARP, PCA here)

My church is about 200 members and pushing 300 in attendance each week. We are building a church building with a big beautiful atrium, with a fireplace and dedicated coffee and donut area. The point is a comfortable place to encourage people to hang out. Our building was purposefully built to max out at 500. At which point, if we were consistently maxing out, we’d plant a new church. I believe that’s the majority mindset of our denomination (PCA). 

We can sometimes be brainiacs, but our jail ministry sometimes brings people in who ask the questions everybody else might be afraid to. 😂 Can be very grounding. 

 

:-)  :-)

So true.

A PCA church we used to attend (we left because we moved away, not because of any problems) attracted a lot of divorced and widowed men for some reason.  Many of them were left bewildered and so lonely. And they asked tough questions. 

Another thing I was thinking about... even at churches where it seems everyone is on mature and strong in faith, I have always found someone I could talk to honestly. I remember one woman in the women's Bible study when the topic of anxiety came up. The leader and the book had the usual line, "cast your troubles on the Lord" or whatever and she said "yeah, that's all fine and of course we should pray, but people shouldn't be afraid to seek medical help.  Medication saved my life and marriage. God gave us doctors for a reason."  (That is pretty much a direct quote, because I was so impressed.)  There were other instances where she or I spoke up when we disagreed with the teaching and/or the leader. She gave me strength. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by marbel

[Mbelle]

It seems like from what you said there are 2 things that are the main issues.  

1} It's too big and there is not connection or community.

You probably know how to get involved and find a group.  These would be the pray for you and be there for you folks. PP have all listed good ideas

2) You are a questioner and you don't want to scare people or you'd like to talk about it with someone who will dig in without fear.

This is where you need a very intelligent but also very spiritual clergy person. This person may not be at your church.  I have known quite few clergy like this.  Epsecially at Episcopal churches, but there is one at my Catholic church right now and I bet they are at other traditional churches.  Keep asking around and you will find it.  I have found this type of clergy really loves to discuss the questions like this because they have also questioned like this too. It makes their day!

The music issues!..aghhh I think many of us struggle with this.  Our family takes "field trips to churches with good music from time to time..I also make sure it coincides with a church that at least has a female clergy on staff because that is my pet peeve.

[May]

If you have questions of faith, I encourage you to talk with the Lutheran pastor. He will welcome your interest and questions. Just an FYI, there are several branches of Lutheranism. The 3 largest are: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod Lutheran Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. These are the three largest and these 3 aren’t in fellowship with each other. Depending on your doctrinal beliefs, you may feel more comfortable at one then another.

[May]

If you have questions of faith, I encourage you to talk with the Lutheran pastor. He will welcome your interest and questions. Just an FYI, there are several branches of Lutheranism. The 3 largest are: Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod Lutheran Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. These are the three largest and these 3 aren’t in fellowship with each other. Depending on your doctrinal beliefs, you may feel more comfortable at one then another.

[marbel]

Thinking about this some more... I think that in general the seeker-friendly churches aren't necessarily the best place for getting help with faith struggles.  We have been visiting a lot of churches lately, and the nondenominational evangelical churches that seek to be 'relevant' and seeker friendly don't seem to have any substance. (I'm sure there are exceptions; I'm talking about my own experiences.)  We went to one recently that had a cursory prayer at the beginning and end but after that was all light, flash, and weird arrangements of traditional hymns with random praise choruses tossed in the middle. The 'sermon' referred generally to a passage of scripture but had little to no substance, and was in many cases just plain wrong. Even my kid who hasn't a lot of interest in theological matters noted all the errors. But people walked out feeling good about themselves, which I guess was the aim. 

The 'brainiac' churches - to borrow SC's phrase above - are full of people with deep theological knowledge. I have known many pastors and "regular" members who have had their own tragedies in life and who can understand deep faith struggles and welcome the opportunity to help people.