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We're not sleeping


Moonhawk
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So, we have been in the new place for a while, and we haven't been sleeping well. The problem is getting worse. At first we just attributed it to different things. New place, more neighborhood noise, colder room, bad air circulation, too much dust, the bed, the baby not sleeping, etc. But we have been eliminating each one and trying everything. It's getting to the point where even with 8 hours sleep it feels like only a few. Yes, when you have a baby you're "always tired" but this is different. Even on nights where the baby sleeps through or the kids are gone, I get to bed early, I feel sometimes WORSE than when she wakes me up at 2am. And it's not just me. DH feels vaguely wrong all of the time; he says it's like he's had 1 beer or is waking up with a hangover even though he isn't drinking. He used to have maybe a beer or glass of wine a week, but he hasn't had anything since April or May because he instantly feels too dizzy and as if it's his 4th.  I think something is wrong with the environment. But what else can I be missing? Here's what I've tried so far:

- originally sleeping on air mattress. Have upgraded to new bed/real mattress

- put on fans to promote air circulation

-opening windows for fresh air

-closed air for controlled air quality

- chamomile, night teas, other natural sleep aids
- new sheets, more blankets, less blankets

-tried sleeping apart

- no lights on, blackout curtains, but nightlight in the bathroom (door closed). Blackout curtains have been left open to see if that was the issue, it made no difference.

- healthy habits about screens before bed (at least for kids) [I'm a little worse at this but I wouldn't say it's a new thing, and I did do 1 week screenless with no change]

Kids are now also saying they can't sleep. The 5yo and 7yo, well, they could be going through a stage if I look at them on the whole. But the 9yo is a rock, she sleeps and has always slept well. But the past few weeks, maybe months now, she wakes up and is dragging, saying she feels tired and as if she hasn't slept, even though she's getting at least 10 hours. (bedtime at 8, asleep by 8:20, alarm goes off at 6:45). 

The other adult in the house (MIL) has been complaining about her sleep for years but is always attributing it to something physical. She's using nose strips (we tried those too) and has gotten a mouth insert from a specialist for sleep apnea. It hasn't been helping and she's in the middle of another sleep study at home. She has never voiced thoughts it could be anything in her environment that's wrong. But, all of us together, can it be something else? What would I even begin to consider? The house is kept clean: swept and vacuumed daily, air filters changed monthly, and a cleaning service comes in once a month. Out of necessity we are living a minimal lifestyle so there isn't a lot of clutter or things to collect dust. 

Any ideas or help is appreciated. I just want to feel rested!! Thank you!

Edited by Moonhawk
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A relative had this problem a few years ago after a move and it turned out to be one of those plug-in rodent repellers left behind by the previous owner.  It makes some sort of noise humans are not supposed to hear but was disturbing everyone’s sleep.   Unplugged and problem solved. 

 

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1 minute ago, texasmom33 said:

Also, if you're drinking and/or cooking with tap water, I'd switch to filtered or bottled for a bit just as an experiment. 

 OMgosh, the water saga I have gone through here. Don't get me started. LOL The tl;dr is we are drinking filtered water. Good thought though. I kept a chart for a month to make sure everyone was drinking enough and that the headaches/dizziness weren't water related. 

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Mold, or a low level of a toxin or carbon monoxide emissions were my guesses.
Are there new-to-you plants putting out pollen that could disrupt sleep (i.e. stuffy nose --> interrupted breathing --> interrupted sleep pattern)?
Is your house near a cell tower or high power lines?
Or near a factory that is out-putting a chemical or something else that your family is reacting to?
Or near a high vehicle traffic area in the night (that is just randomly spaced enough to disrupt deep sleep)?

Can you rent a quiet motel room or stay at a friend's guest house somewhere else for a week of sleep, and compare?

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If you're in the southeast, this is the worst time of year for a lot of people's allergies, since tree, ragweed, an d mold can all be high depending on what you have locally.  I'd see if benedryl helps, or try an air purifier (we have a couple that we move from room to room).  I'd also check for sounds that don't bother you when you're awake - wind or chimes, a pump (we have a water pressurizer that's in the basement under our bedroom, and if there's a leak anywhere in the house, it runs every 10 minutes and keeps me up), an HVAC unit near the bedroom, etc.  Once, in a motel, I almost lost my mind because a chain on a flagpole outside the room clanged all night. It wasn't too noticeable during the day, but at night it was like nails on a chalkboard.  

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I am thinking gas, carbon monoxide, radon, something like that. My aunt had carbon monoxide issues twice! Thankfully she had a detector by the second time it happened. I do not remember if carbon monoxide rises or falls to remember where to locate a detector (or multiples). 

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Thanks everyone for the suggestions!! 

Okay, so consensus it looks like I need to look at mold, radon, carbon monoxide. I don't see anything visible re: mold, so an air test? Is there a reliable home test anyone has used, or is this a hire a professional thing? I'm assuming same with radon.

No new plants; I don't have any plant allergies except for piney things (none around us). DH does have allergies, and the kids might have low level ones. But, I'm not in this group, and none of the plants around the house for at least block are on DH's allergy list (tested again recently this summer).

Ah, cell tower or power lines, not that I can see but maybe I am close enough for disturbance but not close enough to see? I'll have to research this and look at maps.

No factory or high traffic around us, we're pretty far in a quiet neighborhood block. Will double check factories though, maybe we are downwind of something?

My last "away" sleep was in June for a week while I was cleaning up the old house for sale. Even though I was doing heavier labor and less sleep (time crunch), I felt overall healthier and more well rested than I do right now. We don't have any options to get away at the moment but were thinking of just trying to camp for a week now that it's cooler and see how that goes; we've camped before and never had sleep issues, would be interesting to see if the supposed downgrade to camping conditions was noticeable or if it relieved symptoms.

DH is definitely the most effected. He is in the house for the vast majority of the time since he works at home. I get out with the kids for activities, etc just about every day for multiple hours, he's only reliably out for a morning walk and then Sundays for sure. He had a similar schedule at our old house and was fine with it, and whenever he feels cooped up he will get out for a day or two, so I don't think it's cabin fever. (something I thought about while writing reply)

We are in southwest, and the move kept us in the same area/environment so no huge change in terms of weather or flora, though there are more non-native plants in town than where we were before. 

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I’d say mold....especially since it is getting worse with the changing of the season to moister air.   Is it noticibly worse before/after a rain?  I have a significan’t mold allergy and there are some places I can’t spend more than 5 minutes in without having issues.  You could do a non-scientific test and leave out a used bottle nipple and see how much mold you grow in a night....

One hotel I stayed in the plastic nipple was coated with mold in 6 hours......

Stefanie

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10 minutes ago, Sdel said:

I’d say mold....especially since it is getting worse with the changing of the season to moister air.   Is it noticibly worse before/after a rain?  I have a significan’t mold allergy and there are some places I can’t spend more than 5 minutes in without having issues.  You could do a non-scientific test and leave out a used bottle nipple and see how much mold you grow in a night....

One hotel I stayed in the plastic nipple was coated with mold in 6 hours......

Stefanie

 

Hmm. We've had rain the past week or two and we also reached the breaking point this week (hence this post). I'll keep a log to see if it gets better now they we are having drier weather scheduled again. DH has a mold allergy (idk about me or kids) so this would make sense.

Don't know if I can handle an overnight nipple test, your story just made me gag, lol. But yes I should try that. 

Edited by Moonhawk
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7 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

Check the air ducts. You many find evidence of mold up there. But I’d actually hire someone. They have equipment that will not only tell you whether or not mild is present, but what type it is. Some are more dangerous than others. 

Good idea. We got a new AC unit in July. The air ducts were supposedly cleaned but now that I think about it, I don't remember anything actually being done by the company? I wasn't the contact, maybe this part of the service was not hired in the final contract. But i wasn't there the whole time. I'll have to check and see if this was actually done. 

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6 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

 

Hmm. We've had rain the past week or two and we also reached the breaking point this week (hence this post). I'll keep a log to see if it gets better now they we are having drier weather scheduled again. DH has a mold allergy (idk about me or kids) so this would make sense.

Don't know if I can handle an overnight nipple test, your story just made me gag, lol. But yes I should try that. 

 

I have never seen anything else quite like it.  It was particularly gross and unexpected.  We had gotten in at 2 am and was exhausted or I would have cleaned up the mess before bed.  It just goes to show how aggressive some molds can be.   Galveston Island for the record.  

Some types of mold will affect everyone, not just those with an allergy.

Stefanie

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When my allergies kick in, even if I don't feel them, I don't sleep well.  So, I'm guessing some kind of allergy.  (Assuming you've ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning.)

I don't know if you get a change of seasons down there -- if leaves change in the fall, etc., but here, there's something that takes place in the fall that affects our entire family.  It's when the leaves start falling and the crops have mostly been harvested (are you near any farmland?).  My guess (for us) is that there's some kind of a mold that settles on fallen leaves and fields that have just been harvested.  There's no cure for this, just things to help it along.  We always know that when fall is completely over (usually around the first of December), we'll be feeling better and sleeping better again.

 

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Just because mold has been mentioned several times, I thought I’d throw out some info my kids’ pediatrician just shared a couple of weeks ago. She was asking how their allergies had been (we were in for a different reason), and said that if they were currently worse, it most likely would be because of mold. She said mold settles on/under fallen leaves and people with mold allergies are usually worse in the fall until all of the leaves have been raked/are gone from the ground. 

OP, I truly hope you find rest soon. It’s very difficult to be in a new sleep environment and desperately need rest. 

Edited by mmasc
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17 hours ago, kbutton said:

I am thinking gas, carbon monoxide, radon, something like that. My aunt had carbon monoxide issues twice! Thankfully she had a detector by the second time it happened. I do not remember if carbon monoxide rises or falls to remember where to locate a detector (or multiples). 

 

Falls. We have a CO Detector in basement, and another in living room where there is a wood stove. The latter is a type meant to be able to detect CO in cockpits—at a lower amount than our basement one does. However, I also was under impression that CO would cause lethargy.

For Sleep trouble  (and knowing you have already tried black out curtains etc so eliminating light) I would tend to think of (in roughly this order): 

1) electromagnetic problems (including even something like smart meters or transformers or routers or WiFi or cordless phone stations —  I sleep horribly and get migraines if certain devices are left on sleep mode or plugged in at night)

2) noise; 

3) out gassing environmental toxins from paint, carpet, wallboard etc,; 

4) mold; ...

5) other environment problems 

Edited by Pen
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Hello MoonHawk,

My whole family started sleeping better after eliminating some of the electromagnetic pollution in the house, especially in the bedrooms.  You might check to see if you have a wireless baby monitor which would be constantly transmitting microwaves, WiFi router, cell phone in the bedroom, electric clocks near the bed, "smart" meter outside near the sleeping areas.  Wiring errors in the house can also cause problems with sleeping.  Electromagnetic pollution can cause us to sleep fewer hours, and less soundly.  There is helpful information regarding healthy sleeping at the Building Biology and Ecology website here:  https://hbelc.org/faqs-61666?start=2

Hope you all are sleeping better soon.

Good health,

CamperMom

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MIL has lived in the house for 4 years, so no off-gassing renovations. I'll have to check if metamphetamine would still be around after this long. 

The problems have been here since we moved in late January, so while the intensity of the last couple weeks might be weather or seasons, I don't think that's all that's going on. But maybe I'm too tired to see it and that's all it is.

To CamperMom, we turn all electronics either off or to Airplane mode at night, with the exception of the main wifi in the living room (concession to a shared living space). But, it could be since we're in the middle of a populated block and the neighbor's signals are so much more now, it could be that. 

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Try turning off the WiFi and anything else you can think of for a week and see if there is any improvement.  

What is coming from populated block would be harder to figure out though. 

When you wrote about checking how long meth can last, do you mean to know if there’s any point looking into that further?  Or do you know or suspect there was meth there in past?

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13 minutes ago, Pen said:

When you wrote about checking how long meth can last, do you mean to know if there’s any point looking into that further?  Or do you know or suspect there was meth there in past?

 

I meant to see if there is any point in looking into it further after so long a time. I don't think there was meth here in the past. 

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41 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

 

I meant to see if there is any point in looking into it further after so long a time. I don't think there was meth here in the past. 

 

 

Ah. I looked up CO and found that while it does usually cause lethargy, very low levels can cause insomnia or fragmented sleep.  

So I’d put that on my list of likely environmental problems  after all. 

Your description does sound like when I have had lack of good sleep specifically due to electromagnetic pollution.  However I haven’t had personal experience with some of the other possible problems. 

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CO, because you're tired when you wake up and don't feel like you have slept well.

And, this at acute levels is die in your sleep type life threatening so I would get on it immediately.  Detectors are easy to install.  Remediation is usually easier than other causes, too.

One unusual cause to be aware of--if you have a wood stove in the room with the air return for a gas furnace, the draft on the woodstove can sometimes suck exhaust out of the furnace into your home.  Weird but true.  (It's why we didn't put a wood stove into our great room at the cabin.)

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1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

CO, because you're tired when you wake up and don't feel like you have slept well.

And, this at acute levels is die in your sleep type life threatening so I would get on it immediately.  Detectors are easy to install.  Remediation is usually easier than other causes, too.

One unusual cause to be aware of--if you have a wood stove in the room with the air return for a gas furnace, the draft on the woodstove can sometimes suck exhaust out of the furnace into your home.  Weird but true.  (It's why we didn't put a wood stove into our great room at the cabin.)

 

While I think EMF is more likely given that problem seems equally bad when windows are open iirc (if source were inside) or closed with air filter going (if source were outside), I totally agree that given ease of checking, and that potentially serious illness or death could result from CO, that you should check CO levels ASAP.   

 

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Thanks everyone for the ideas! I've been sick so trying to implement what I can while not getting off the couch unless absolutely necessary, lol. 

We've called a couple of places to get some testing done, but haven't scheduled as yet. We're supposed to have a meeting with MIL next week where we can bring up everything I've found and ask about getting upgraded (or any??) CO alarms and see if she has any symptoms she hasn't mentioned to us. I've been opening up the windows most of the time since the weather is cooler and just trying to make sure we're ventilated. But, if it's mold, I might just be making the problem worse. The thing about the mold that concerns me is that we live in a dry environment, so I wouldn't think about it usually, so thanks for mentioning it. 

Yes to dark circles under eyes, I can see it on the older kids (not baby). 5yo itches by pushing nose but I don't know if that's always been like that. 

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Aw, hope you feel better soon.

Amazon or any hardware store should have CO detectors, and because that can be so serious I'd rule it out asap, before you meet with MIL. Even if there are already detectors in the house I'd get a new one because they all stop working at a certain point (some faster than others) and need to be replaced at regular intervals.

Mold will take more energy and time to detect, but you or dh can get a new CO detector today. It's worth getting the most sensitive one you can find.

Amy

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47 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Don’t wait to get a CO2 detector. They’re cheap. Go pick one up today. 

Amazon delivers these.  

Seriously, if the house is making you so sick that you can't get off the couch, it's even more imperative to get the heck out of the house during daytime as much as possible.  Get out, breathe some good air for a few hours, and see how it's going. 

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6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Seems like the easiest way to test for the CO would be to use a pulse oximeter and see if anyone's oxygen levels are dropping, yes?

Not necessarily. CO will often times give an artificially high SpO2 reading due how the CO preferentially binds to the heme in blood. 

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On 10/25/2018 at 9:04 AM, prairiewindmomma said:

 

Seriously, if the house is making you so sick that you can't get off the couch, it's even more imperative to get the heck out of the house during daytime as much as possible.  Get out, breathe some good air for a few hours, and see how it's going. 

Oops, I was poorly communicating: I happened to also just catch a bug, which made me come to a standstill (laystill?) on the couch . Thankfully it's just me and baby with a cold. Everyone else seems to have dodged the bullet ? 

Kids and I get out of the house minimum 3 hours a day everyday except Wednesday; DH does not, and seems to be the most affected, part of the reason why we think something is wrong with the house itself, and not just coincidence. When he gets out for a few days in a row he seems to be better off for a bit. 

22 hours ago, HeighHo said:

The kids are having allergic reactions. Take a look at diet as well as environmental..mold,spores, seasonal, dust. Consider cleaning a bedroom, remove everything but beds, wash all the bedding, and having them sleep there, in a dust free environment. It won't help if its mold or plant allergen.

Do circles under eyes equal allergies? Or is it how the 5yo is rubbing his nose? Would be good to know so I can keep a lookout. 5yo definitely has the most allergies thus far so I wouldn't be surprised. 

Due to the afore-mentioned sickness, I've been doing a deep clean in me effort to keep it contained, I'll take it a step further and take out everything else (only the temporary wardrobes so it won't be hard). Thanks for the idea.

21 hours ago, arctic_bunny said:

What about radon? Is that a thing in your area?

Idk if it's a thing or not, but I just found a place that does free inspections in my area, so I guess we'll find out.

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