Is this too harsh?

[Tsuga]

14 year old high school aged boy from a middle class family has a passion for English, film and the arts. He writes and it's great to see him with hobbies and friends who share his interests. Like many people who love the humanities, he finds that it is difficult to find part-time work or volunteer activities that align with his interests. We are empathetic, being artistically-bent ourselves, but he needs to learn how to solve financial and other practical issues without demanding it excite his real interests.

One issue is spending money. The current situation is:

Kid asks for spending money.

Kid is offered chores.

Kid puts off or outright declines said chores (even if offered to do them together with his dad).

Kid wants money later. Kid asks for "advance". Dad refuses because he had time to plan and he doesn't want to be nagging over a debt later.

Kid skips activity (for those of you with introverted teen boys you know this is heartbreaking to watch) or dips into birthday savings which he planned to use for big ticket items like a trip to Comic Con.

We aren't super concerned about money because he does get a lot of birthday money from grandparents and us. He will manage to have a social life. All extracurricular activities are paid by us of course. 

The question is how to instill in him a sense of urgency to get him to think about earning money as something he needs to take care of--versus complaining that his dad isn't finding "the right" chores / the chores are "too hard", or that it's not enough, etc. I.e. making pocket money his problem and not our problem.

In a few months at 15 he can get a part time job. He gets a free bus pass from the school district and the busses in our suburb are fine. We adults take them to work. Every other store at the mall is hiring, and it is DIRECTLY on a bus line. Unemployment is record low. 

I think that we should stop trying to find him chores and instead say, "you are fifteen, get a part time job for money, because we are spending more time following up on chores than it takes to do them. It's time to get some experience." He does not have any disabilities, is smart and while quiet, is perfectly competent, even better than the average boy his age at most social interactions.

Is stopping an allowance (which he almost never earns anyway) and demanding he get a job too harsh? The goal is to make him start solving some of his own financial wants or at least to stop looking to us to resolve those issues. 

I want to emphasize that all clothing, snack, activity, and related needs are cared for and this is for things like seeing a movie for the second time, purchasing posters for his room beyond what he gets for Christmas and birthdays, eating out with friends though there is a hot meal at home, etc.

Other ideas are welcome.

[KrissiK]

We have the same problem. Don’t try to “find” him chores. When he gets desperate enough he will do what is offered.Or he will just have to do without. That’s life.

stopping allowance? Depends on how much it is. Our kids get $3/week. Enough for a soda or something at youth group. We pay for certain chores - mowing lawn, etc.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Not remotely too harsh. I have a son who is translating ancient Nordic poetry, who still has to work, and in one of the five worst and most dangerous neighborhoods of our city. (So did his brothers.) They know real life and they also know religion, poetry, music, and art. There is a huge conversation here, about being that kid in this era, but the short version is that I wouldn't trade the necessity for them to work as teens, now that two are adults and the third is a rising senior. The lessons, of all kinds, were worth it. (They think so, too.)

[scholastica]

Not too harsh. We don’t tie chores to allowance, though. Children get a small allowance as their part of the family earnings until they are old enough to get a job. Chores are something we all have to do because we live in community and that’s what people do when they live in community - share the burden of the upkeep. 

Something will motivate him to earn for himself at some point. Everybody hits that point, if they are allowed to do so. You are doing the right thing. I would still expect chores because the work at home doesn’t go away just because the kid got a job.  

[Tsuga]

Yes, thanks for your thoughts. To be clear, there are household chores which all the kids pitch in on and do as family members, no payment.

Currently, per dad's plan, weekly allowance is erratic and predicated on chores he does, not constant, so it is a theoretical loss of being able to use us as an ad hoc, on demand, lenient employer.

I know many kids do more than ours. But a lot of kids who are not asked to work. And I am a stepparent so I am sensitive to being too harsh.

[Rachel]

It seems quite reasonable to me. My kids aren’t teens yet, so I haven’t walked in your shoes though. 

[Guest]

It does not seem harsh to me. I “made” my teens get jobs. Partly to pay for those casual expenses and partly to gain experience in having a “real” job. 

[SereneHome]

I don't "believe" in allowance at all and very much into getting a job if you are old enough.  I started working at 16, after only being in US for 3 months and barely speaking English. 

That being said, when it comes to kids and money, I tend to look at the big picture, so I would be more concern that he is not planning for his expenses, but dips into savings. That would be very concerning to me and I would want to deal with that way before they get into the real world.

So,  no, not to harsh that he should get a job.  I wouldn't demand it, though, just say that the bank of "mom and dad" is closed and discuss the alternatives and let him make the choice

[Tsuga]

46 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

Perhaps it would be more neutral if dad just posted a task list and what he's willing to pay for each task.  ...?  If not, junior camp counselor, ass't or ref in a sport he does, etc etc.  then once his birthday approaches give him the nudge to get his papers. 

 

I want to clarify that this is not the first time we have discussed chores.

The entire issue is that when we suggest things he puts then off or rejects them. He could literally do ANY of those things easily. He has been offered a job, even had been begged to take a job by the league, refereeing for kids soccer. His grandma has work for him. I could go on and on.

Lack of job opportunities is not his issue. There is currently a labor shortage.

We have a chores list. He rejects it  ("I'm busy") until he needs money immediately and when that happens he wants an IOU which essentially means following up on menial chores for weeks because he owes us $15... No thanks.

[gardenmom5]

not harsh - some kids just take longer.   possibly more so with boys. 

• (and, again,  I'm currently in this with dudeling - he doens't get an allowance, but all we cover his expenses.  not his luxury "wants"(which *might* be considered as a christmas/bd gift).  he wont' do chores to earn money ahead of a want- only if there is something he wants the next day. he thinks he should get paid ridiculous sums, and is umimpressed when I tell him he's asking for more than his college jr brothers make as interns in their fields.   - he still will hardly ever do any.
•   I had one who graduated high school with a ccna, working on a ccnp - he was making $15 an hour at 18 when going wage was <$9an hour.   if his boss said people could leave early - he left instead of staying and making money. he blew it as fast as he earned it. he eventually quit. fortunately for him, he was able to live at home as he struggled to figure out what he was going to do with his life.   he eventually got very motivated, took charge, and is well on his way to making a very good salary.

and that is really the challenge- how to get them self-motivated . .. . there may simply be physiological maturity in that.

I also have a humanities major . .  she got into computers.  it fit her love of language more than one would think.  

[ktgrok]

Instead of coming up with chores on demand, I'd have a list of chores taped to the refrigerator with the amounts each is worth written next to it, and how often it should be done. When he wants money he can consult the list and choose one. 

[klmama]

It sounds like he is one who needs to learn this lesson the hard way.  Better it happen now than when he's an adult.  

[Mimm]

We had a somewhat similar situation but you might not like our solution. ?

Basically, nothing was less motivating to my children than being offered money. They wanted money, but they wanted to not do chores much much more. Not doing chores always won over having money. But at the same time, to have a social life, they needed a bit of spending money. My oldest needed more than my middle (and youngest is four so she needs none at all).

Our solution was to completely divorce spending money from chores. Chores are simply expected, they are part of living in this family. Yes, this means we nag and get after them about it, but we were doing that anyway. And because they aren't getting money, they no longer feel like they can just opt out of chores and forego the money.

And they get the money for free. The reason we did that is because Oldest was being handed way more money than Middle and she wasn't budgeting at all. She just came to us asking for anything she wanted. This way Oldest has to budget (with only one exception, we have never allowed an advance on allowance) and Middle, who is a natural saver, gets to watch her bank account grow.

It's been working much better for us. It's fair between the kids, chores mostly get done around here because they're non negotiable, everyone has money for fun stuff.

[Tsuga]

33 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

not harsh - some kids just take longer.   possibly more so with boys...

I also have a humanities major . .  she got into computers.  it fit her love of language more than one would think.  

I agree and am also into the arts... And technical work.

However, I must say that at fifteen the idea I would get a job suited to my interests was not on the radar. He so far has demurred on getting any particular job because it isn't in his area of interest. E.g. "I'm not sure about the library... I mean I like writing but not so much stacking books..." Bless his heart, as some would say.

We don't want to compare, but his sisters area of interest is "helping people especially kids." So that's easy to find entry-level work in. Writing short stories, not so much. Does that make sense? We feel confident that if we continue to believe in him and he works hard it will all come together in the long run. It is the short-term money situation that is hard to resolve. Or rather, that I am less certain about.

I feel a lot better after this thread. I feel like on average I can be way stricter on my kids and demand more sacrifice than other middle class parents. This has been reassuring.

[Tsuga]

6 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

I'd be laughing at that con job, and tell him no hamburgers today (Popeye/Wimpy ref). 

I would appreciate it if you read the prior posts carefully before weighing in, particularly if you wish to give advice. The entire point is that we have not accepted typical childhood excuses but want him to learn to earn money.

Simply laughing at / mocking a childish answer will not teach financial acumen. 

[freesia]

One thing I've said to my ds, who is like this, is that sometimes we have to work at jobs we don't like in order to reach our goals and get to a place where we can work at (or finance doing) the things we love. 

I do have to say that time and years has helped the most. He has a deadly dull job right now, but he had a goal (college) and it keeps him going. 

Not having money at all for movie tickets was his initial motivation for wanting to work ( but we did have to push him and insist last summer).

[Bootsie]

Personally, I would not refer to earning money tied to chores as an allowance.  I would try to approach the situation from a broader money management philosophy, so that he needs to think of both earning and spending money and think of how to budget for that.  I would provide an allowance (not tied to chores) that was meant to cover some basic items that I would have paid for, but expect the child to budget and spend for that out of the allowance.  Even though the child may not be earning the money, he is learning some about budgeting.  If he wants to buy extras, he will need to figure out how to earn money.  I would either approach that by having a list of chores with the amount I am willing to pay for him to refer to or I would put it on him of suggesting chores and pay which you can accept or not accept if he does not want to get a job.

[Tsuga]

@HeighHoI'm not asking people to agree, I'm disagreeing with your response as I don't believe it is relevant. I'm not asking for advice on how to say "no". Does that make sense? You're not disagreeing, you're answering a totally different question.

However carefully you are reading, please read more carefully.

Rich Dad, Poor Dad... Not even gonna go there. We aren't poor.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'll tell you another phase when the conversation might happen again - facing the idea of choosing a career. One of mine truly adjusted to working as a teen, after being a sensitive artist type who was truly fatigued by the types of jobs available, at first. But then when he was supposed to grow up and make a plan for college or whatever, he was kind of paralyzed about choosing the wrong thing and never finding something he would love. FYI, we did tell him on a daily basis that he didn't have to decide anything yet! But he was determined to stew over it all. (He is now an adult and thriving, after a false start.) At each of these phases, he was a couple of years behind average, as far as a feeling a real anxiety over change, and it was actually pretty hard on all of us. 

OP, I don't think you've been too enabling or that you are at risk of being too strict. They aren't hatched out of the egg knowing everything, and our telling them stuff doesn't make them instantly understand and accept. It's all developmental, the timetables are unpredictable, you are teaching him...he's got good parents helping him through transitions. That's a lucky kid.

[Tsuga]

23 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

I do have to point out a possible scenario with posting jobs and pay. One child just MIGHT go hard at it, earn lots, and then loan it out to siblings at a hefty interest... ? Not that that ever happened here...

I posted an answer to this but it died.

If DSS did this we'd be thrilled at the financial initiative, acumen and social engagement.

Alas, it will most likely be the littlest one, who has the heart and mind of a capitalist. After an innocuous request to go to the  park, she took all the plastic bags (which we save for wet suit /towel carries) to the park and sold them to dog walkers as Doo Doo bags for a dollar apiece claiming she would give the money to the shelter and also buy some ice cream.

When she got home with her earnings she gleefully announced that she had $5 for the shelter and had ice cream for the rest of the year. Uh... No... We set the record straight on how to represent social enterprise.

She also got disciplined at school for selling hand massages for lunch money. "Mom! There was a LINE!" Why do kids want a hand massage you may ask? It is all in the marketing I guess.

She will be loaning her step brother at usurious rates in no time. ?

[Tsuga]

1 hour ago, jdahlquist said:

Personally, I would not refer to earning money tied to chores as an allowance.  I would try to approach the situation from a broader money management philosophy, so that he needs to think of both earning and spending money and think of how to budget for that.  I would provide an allowance (not tied to chores) that was meant to cover some basic items that I would have paid for, but expect the child to budget and spend for that out of the allowance.  Even though the child may not be earning the money, he is learning some about budgeting.  If he wants to buy extras, he will need to figure out how to earn money.  I would either approach that by having a list of chores with the amount I am willing to pay for him to refer to or I would put it on him of suggesting chores and pay which you can accept or not accept if he does not want to get a job.

 

Good point to separate budgeting for needs from the whole get a job thing.

They do this with school clothes.

Like many quiet, introverted, bookish kids he doesn't learn about budgeting so much as he just buys all the cheapest stuff for clothes. Then he waits for his birthday.

Snacks are no use because they get them at the other house which is way more pro-junk/snack food than ours.

What else can they budget for? Clothes we do, snacks won't work in our situation, thoughts?

[Tsuga]

1 hour ago, freesia said:

One thing I've said to my ds, who is like this, is that sometimes we have to work at jobs we don't like in order to reach our goals and get to a place where we can work at (or finance doing) the things we love. 

I do have to say that time and years has helped the most. He has a deadly dull job right now, but he had a goal (college) and it keeps him going. 

Not having money at all for movie tickets was his initial motivation for wanting to work ( but we did have to push him and insist last summer).

We do say this and have many personal examples in our lives. Grandparents say it. I just think it's an issue where... It isn't true for him now so he is going to delay that unpleasant reality until he has to face it.

I agree more.conversations on the type of work we did would help. We are trying.

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

 

Good point to separate budgeting for needs from the whole get a job thing.

They do this with school clothes.

Like many quiet, introverted, bookish kids he doesn't learn about budgeting so much as he just buys all the cheapest stuff for clothes. Then he waits for his birthday.

Snacks are no use because they get them at the other house which is way more pro-junk/snack food than hours.

What else can they budget for? Clothes we do, snacks won't work in our situation, thoughts?

Going to a movie, snacks at a movie, recreational outings like miniature golf or bowling.

Drivers license fees, gasoline, insurance, car maintenance when he begins driving.

Books, music video games.

Christmas gifts and birthday gifts for family members.

What are things that you generally spend money on for him?  School lunches?  Anything you generally spend money on him could be allocated to him and that made his responsibility.  You could even get a bit creative with some of his chores--he has $ to spend to make breakfast for the family each Saturday morning.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Tsuga said:

I agree and am also into the arts... And technical work.

However, I must say that at fifteen the idea I would get a job suited to my interests was not on the radar. He so far has demurred on getting any particular job because it isn't in his area of interest. E.g. "I'm not sure about the library... I mean I like writing but not so much stacking books..." Bless his heart, as some would say.

We don't want to compare, but his sisters area of interest is "helping people especially kids." So that's easy to find entry-level work in. Writing short stories, not so much. Does that make sense? We feel confident that if we continue to believe in him and he works hard it will all come together in the long run. It is the short-term money situation that is hard to resolve. Or rather, that I am less certain about.

I feel a lot better after this thread. I feel like on average I can be way stricter on my kids and demand more sacrifice than other middle class parents. This has been reassuring.

 

I have a good family friend whose brother is a very successful author.  new york times best seller list successful, with a series of books published. (he's been approached about turning at least one book into a movie.  not sure where it is in process.)   he started writing after being in a career for 20 years.  he writes about what he knows - the critics love him.

Jack London worked at many jobs, including menial jobs. he drew on those experiences in his writing.

tom clancy was an insurance agent  - which gave him time to write.

it's important to see jobs as not just an opportunity to earn money - but to learn about something.  learn about people, learn about entry jobs, learn about businesses and industries - the people who take them how they live, what motivates them, etc.  those are things that would be important to a writer that he can use in his writing.

kids interests change.   the learn what they're good at.   I worked for a woman whose father was a dr.   she wanted absolutely nothing to do with medicine.  she was an english major (just to do something) and took a research bio class.  she really liked it and felt she could do that for a living.  her father sat her down and asked "do you want to give the orders or take the orders?" - she's a surgeon.

1dd only ever wanted to major in classics because - tolkein .  . . . 2dd was going to be a math major . . . 1ds started out with computer graphics.  now, he's an engineer.  2ds started as an engineer - he's an accountant.

[J-rap]

I think it's fine (and good) to require a paid job.  Either a part-time job in town or a part-time job at home -- something above and beyond basic home chores (bigger jobs like cleaning the garage thoroughly or weekly lawn mowing or painting the backyard shed or something that you might otherwise even consider hiring someone to do).  

I think you can also add to that a paid challenge job that will push him to excel with his unique interests.  For example, our dd was really interested in art.  She had a part-time job already at the local coffee shop, but we also offered to pay her expenses (for materials) and also "reward" money if she pushed herself to actually hold an art show at the coffee shop.  She worked on that project for about 6 months, finishing up paintings or creating new ones, learning how to cut cardboard matting for displaying her pictures, etc.  For another dd who loved the guitar and singing, we challenged her to take five favorite songs and using the same lyrics, write completely new music.  That one took about a year to do, but we paid her a set amount after she completed all five.  (Those are just some examples. :))  (They both are working now in those areas.)

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, Tsuga said:

I posted an answer to this but it died.

If DSS did this we'd be thrilled at the financial initiative, acumen and social engagement.

Alas, it will most likely be the littlest one, who has the heart and mind of a capitalist. After an innocuous request to go to the  park, she took all the plastic bags (which we save for wet suit /towel carries) to the park and sold them to dog walkers as Doo Doo bags for a dollar apiece claiming she would give the money to the shelter and also buy some ice cream.

When she got home with her earnings she gleefully announced that she had $5 for the shelter and had ice cream for the rest of the year. Uh... No... We set the record straight on how to represent social enterprise.

She also got disciplined at school for selling hand massages for lunch money. "Mom! There was a LINE!" Why do kids want a hand massage you may ask? It is all in the marketing I guess.

She will be loaning her step brother at usurious rates in no time. ?

Ha!  I have one like this! When he was in first grade he went to an aftercare program that had kids from several different schools. I got a call asking me to please tell him not to sell lollipops anymore, as it was disruptive and other parents were upset about it. I had no idea what she was talking about. It seems his own elementary school was having a lollipop fundraiser, and he'd taken some of his money and bought several, then sold them for double the price at aftercare to kids that didn't go to his school. He'd made enough to increase his inventory and had quite the enterprise going on by the time I found out about it!

[freesia]

7 hours ago, Tsuga said:

We do say this and have many personal examples in our lives. Grandparents say it. I just think it's an issue where... It isn't true for him now so he is going to delay that unpleasant reality until he has to face it.

I agree more.conversations on the type of work we did would help. We are trying.

I thought you probably were. It will stick at some point. It can be frustrating to wait though. I think there is great value in adults who continually, but calmly, say--not everything in life is fun. A lot of things we have to do are a slog. But everyone has to do them and it is ok. It sounds like this is what you do. (I'm putting it out there for folks reading who may not have thought of it)

Waiting for maturity to kick in and dealing with the pushback is exhausting! My second and third are way more mature in the hustling to make money idea. But my third thinks that we only ask him to do chores around the house bc we are mean. The drama that kid  puts on over wiping a counter is amazing. Dh says--it's all part of training. They aren't finished yet. That's why we have them until they are 18. ( And, like I said, the maturity jump in ds1 has been amazing this year. )

[freesia]

Also, if he Is serious about the writing, I would have his dad have him interview or investigate writers. I don't know any who live off just their writing ( well except journalists, but they are assigned work they don't love, too). My cousin's dh had published many books ( and been in anthologies like Best Short Stories of..). He had always had another job ( bar tending, teaching at a prep school and now a college). Others have had spouses to support them. Dh is publishing a book this year and he works full time. 

That would give other avenues for him to see your message from others. My teens will often see advice from others outside the house as golden ( particularly if they are 20 something bloggers grrrr)

[mom@shiloh]

We have a kid like that.  Here's what we've done:

We don't pay for chores. Too complicated and too much "book-keeping".  Everyone is expected to contribute based on their age and abilities. If they're not doing them or if they're not doing them well, I find a way to "remind" them that they won't forget.  They may need to skip an activity that they were looking forward to.  I might wake them up from a sound sleep to have them get up and do it or wait until meal time and then have them do it before they eat. Hopefully, there will be food left when they get finished.  Yes, that's hard and yes, I feel mean; but it's much more loving than allowing them to learn bad habits.  If you make the consequences unpleasant enough, it will only happen once.  

We don't give allowances either, but mostly because we're lazy.  It's probably a good idea to give a small allowance so that they can pay for small things at their own discretion, and it saves on parental headaches for trying to remember which kid you gave how much to.  

As soon as our kids are old enough to get part time jobs, we require them to work at some type of fast food place for one year. No one has liked it thus far.  We feel it's a good training experience and actually a good way to teach empathy and respect for low wage service workers. After their one year, they've all gone on to find other jobs. As soon as they're making their own money, they can pay for non-essentials themselves.  

[hippiemamato3]

35 minutes ago, mom@shiloh said:

 

As soon as our kids are old enough to get part time jobs, we require them to work at some type of fast food place for one year. No one has liked it thus far.  We feel it's a good training experience and actually a good way to teach empathy and respect for low wage service workers. After their one year, they've all gone on to find other jobs. As soon as they're making their own money, they can pay for non-essentials themselves.  

 

That's funny - we have a strict "no fast food" jobs policy in this house. lol 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

10 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

 

That's funny - we have a strict "no fast food" jobs policy in this house. lol 

 

If we had that policy, our teens couldn't work. And they have to work, like teens from most families in our locale. It's nice if you have plentiful employment options for teens where you live, or if you are wealthy enough to afford to look down on this type of work, but it's not really funny.

[Tsuga]

9 hours ago, jdahlquist said:

Going to a movie, snacks at a movie, recreational outings like miniature golf or bowling.

Yes--he would have to earn that right now. This is what he wants a larger budget for. Hmmmm, if only there were a way to get more money... I wonder what it could be, lol.

9 hours ago, jdahlquist said:

Drivers license fees, gasoline, insurance, car maintenance when he begins driving.

Yes. This is definitely something they must earn. We won't be providing a car budget beyond an initial starter gift for new tires on an old car if purchased. I will say he doesn't appear to want a car. He says it is too expensive and I agree.

9 hours ago, jdahlquist said:

Books, music video games.

Christmas gifts and birthday gifts for family members.

He does this.

9 hours ago, jdahlquist said:

What are things that you generally spend money on for him?  School lunches?  Anything you generally spend money on him could be allocated to him and that made his responsibility.  You could even get a bit creative with some of his chores--he has $ to spend to make breakfast for the family each Saturday morning.

We do this with meals. Maybe it really is only a question of learning to work and not to budget--he is naturally frugal and does save, hence, savings to dip into. He is definitely a natural energy-saver if that makes sense.

[Tsuga]

27 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

If we had that policy, our teens couldn't work. And they have to work, like teens from most families in our locale. It's nice if you have plentiful employment options for teens where you live, or if you are wealthy enough to afford to look down on this type of work, but it's not really funny.

Yeah, no fast food? I think fast food jobs should be mandatory. Everyone should know the misery of the general public at 11 p.m. It is a very good first job and Starbucks and McDonalds have great training and benefit programs all things considered. 

@gardenmom5 He can have a writing career but I meant, it is not easy or fast money. Unlike the many other reasonable suggestions for a 15 year old boy posted on this thread.

Re: paying for writing clinics... At some point. For now what I really want is to shift the burden of finding work from us to him. Once that starts we can more easily propose more relevant and sophisticated ideas. I love the idea of paying to submit manuscripts or something.

[hippiemamato3]

38 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

If we had that policy, our teens couldn't work. And they have to work, like teens from most families in our locale. It's nice if you have plentiful employment options for teens where you live, or if you are wealthy enough to afford to look down on this type of work, but it's not really funny.

 

We are a vegan family and the fast food industry contributes to animal cruelty on a grand scale. It's also incredibly unhealthy. Few teens work in fast food here.  And the "lol" wasn't being snobby - it's because I find it ridiculous to require a specific kind of (gross) job...there are almost always other options. 

[Janeway]

I think you are being totally reasonable. 

[gardenmom5]

 

28 minutes ago, Tsuga said:

Yeah, no fast food? I think fast food jobs should be mandatory. Everyone should know the misery of the general public at 11 p.m. It is a very good first job and Starbucks and McDonalds have great training and benefit programs all things considered. 

@gardenmom5 He can have a writing career but I meant, it is not easy or fast money. Unlike the many other reasonable suggestions for a 15 year old boy posted on this thread.

Re: paying for writing clinics... At some point. For now what I really want is to shift the burden of finding work from us to him. Once that starts we can more easily propose more relevant and sophisticated ideas. I love the idea of paying to submit manuscripts or something.

oh - I agree a writing career is possible - but it isnt' fast, or easy.  I'm sorry if I wasn't clear - happens a lot.

what I meant - but wasn't more direct, the other suggestions, re: typical teenage jobs he doens't seem interested in could be encouraged as "research" for being a writer. instead of them having to be something he finds "interesting".

and as I've told kids more times than I can remember, there are many things we do in life because they need to be done, not because they're "fun or interesting".

[katilac]

I probably would not require him to get a job, I would just not advance him any money. Ever. 

If he is requesting advances to do things, then he's going to miss them if he doesn't get that advance, right? So give him clear warning, stop the advances, and let nature take its course. 

Certainly I would not be trying to find him chores that he finds acceptable. If there are chores that you are willing to hire out, I'd post them as others have suggested, maybe with right of first refusal: if you do not complete this chore by x date, it will be opened up to the neighborhood kids. If there aren't any chores you're willing to pay the neighborhood kids for, then don't pay him for them either. I'd likely not force him to get a job, but I'd also not create make-work for him at home. 

For example: my dh is very willing to pay the neighbor kids to help with yard work, so if dd happens to be around and willing, she gets the chance to do it first. However, he does not 'hold' the job for her if she has something she wants to do instead when he decides to work on the yard. He does it at his convenience, she does or doesn't help and get paid. 

From your OP: I want to emphasize that all clothing, snack, activity, and related needs are cared for and this is for things like seeing a movie for the second time, purchasing posters for his room beyond what he gets for Christmas and birthdays, eating out with friends though there is a hot meal at home, etc.

Depending on the details, I think you might be too generous here. Do you pay for him to go the movies with friends? I'd stop that. We pay when seeing a movie as a family, they pay if they go with friends (this has always been the rule). What do you mean by snacks? If you mean anything other than "I'm nice and buy a few snacks for home" then you are being too generous. Special snacks and snacks while hanging out with friends should come from his budget. What do you mean by activities? Piano lessons are one thing, laser tag is quite another. 

I'd spend some time talking with dh and defining what you will and won't pay for once he turns 15. Work it all out, and present it to him well before his birthday. "You're getting older, and this is what things are going to look like once you turn 15." 

Where I'm coming from: my kids did not work ongoing jobs in high school. We don't have decent public transit so I would have been driving them, many places won't hire until 18, they had a pretty heavy academic load. So, I had no problem with the fact that they were happy enough to stretch out their gift dollars and their $2/week allowance. Had they wanted more things, we would have thought harder about jobs, but honestly it would have been very inconvenient for me. 

 

[Paige]

It sounds pretty normal and typical to me. A middle class teen with motivation to work and make money would be the exception in our area. 

I think I’d just continue as you are- offer chores for money if he wants. He can take it or leave it. Let him spend his birthday money- he’ll learn whether that is a good idea or not on his own. IMO, 14 is still pretty young. Few places will hire anyone under at least 16 these days and work ethic and motivation will usually emerge no matter what parents do as the teens get older and more mature. Letting him feel discontent and frustration with his lack of funds and choices is fine. 

 

[Liz CA]

Agree with those who said this is by no means too harsh.

Life lessons are best learned while still in the swimming pool before setting out to sea.

I am not sure if this is a factor but I think you mentioned in previous posts that his mother is in the picture. I would probably let Dad and Mom handle this one though it may be hard to watch if it's handled very differently from how you would address it with your children.

[Carol in Cal.]

Just in general--it's harder to say no and have it make sense when you have the means to say yes than when you don't.  Particularly in a two household family.

In addition to 'closing the bank', mentioned many times in this thread, I would be inclined to start slower on the job issue.  I'd praise diligence out loud, without criticizing laziness or pickiness.  I'd tell stories of how I got started, and get others to do the same.  I'd talk about being prepared to jump on opportunities when they arise.  I'd talk about good character.  I'd talk up the importance of really knowing how to do the job you hope to delegate one day.  And these would be salted into everyday discussions, not delivered as lectures.

In parallel, I'd make sure to require some 'pitching in' by everyone. 

Also, I'd make sure that DS knows how to look for a job, and that him having a job actually fits into the other rules you have for him.  That is often something that has to be explicitly taught.  I so vividly remember my dad yelling at me to get a job at that age, and me having absolutely no clue where to look for one, not being able to drive or allowed to take drivers' training, not being allowed to go out of the house without saying exactly where I was going, not having clue where to go, and being told by my mother that if I do get a summer job I have to make sure I can have two weeks off in July for the annual family vacation, because there is no way that I am going to be able to stay home by myself.  That all added up to yet another catch 22 from my fraught FOO, and really was an impossible situation.

[Tsuga]

3 hours ago, hippiemamato3 said:

 

We are a vegan family and the fast food industry contributes to animal cruelty on a grand scale. It's also incredibly unhealthy. Few teens work in fast food here.  And the "lol" wasn't being snobby - it's because I find it ridiculous to require a specific kind of (gross) job...there are almost always other options. 

 

I think options that do not participate in the animal-to-market supply chain are incredibly rare outside of maybe 20-30 major metro areas. You can't do most retail because of leather and cruelty; you wouldn't want to do petrol or anything selling food at all, outside of highly specialized vegan stores. JoAnne Fabrics sells leather. Out. Michael's sells leather. Out. I could go on and on. If you're taking a stand go for it but it's not simple at all.

Knowing that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to survive is an important skill. I know someone right now who can't believe she can't continue to get unemployment... I mean do they know how hard it is to get a full time job as a painter?  Like, good for her, she's principled, but I'll take my cold hard cash. We just aren't that rich.

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Just in general--it's harder to say no and have it make sense when you have the means to say yes than when you don't.  Particularly in a two household family.

In addition to 'closing the bank', mentioned many times in this thread, I would be inclined to start slower on the job issue.  I'd praise diligence out loud, without criticizing laziness or pickiness.  I'd tell stories of how I got started, and get others to do the same.  I'd talk about being prepared to jump on opportunities when they arise.  I'd talk about good character.  I'd talk up the importance of really knowing how to do the job you hope to delegate one day.  And these would be salted into everyday discussions, not delivered as lectures.

 

I do want to emphasize that there's never been a bank. He just keeps repeating the same behavior because why not?

We try to tell stories about our starts, but I think their sense is, "Well you clearly liked walking across town to clean toilets. When I find something I like as much as you liked using Clorox, I'll do the same!" It's really hard to explain that we didn't like it at all without sounding like we are complaining. But yes, we do need to do this more.

 

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

In parallel, I'd make sure to require some 'pitching in' by everyone. 

Absolutely--that happens 3x / day and he is responsible for another room. 100% agree.

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Also, I'd make sure that DS knows how to look for a job, and that him having a job actually fits into the other rules you have for him.  That is often something that has to be explicitly taught.  I so vividly remember my dad yelling at me to get a job at that age, and me having absolutely no clue where to look for one, not being able to drive or allowed to take drivers' training, not being allowed to go out of the house without saying exactly where I was going, not having clue where to go, and being told by my mother that if I do get a summer job I have to make sure I can have two weeks off in July for the annual family vacation, because there is no way that I am going to be able to stay home by myself.  That all added up to yet another catch 22 from my fraught FOO, and really was an impossible situation.

 

I agree and we do try to do that. We live within walking distance of two malls and at least five little other shopping areas. We explained, you apply online then go door to door and give them a printed resume. We have talked through it. "Go on a Monday when the manager is likely there." Etc. This is where he views it kind of as our job to make it seem appealing to him or easier than it is or something? Point being, we are "owning" this problem for him and I think he needs to own it.

Also, did I mention his school has a counselor devoted to this? So it's not like he has no resources. I almost feel like it's too easy and he thinks it will be easy any time, but it's actually better the younger you start because at that point the "no experience" thing isn't a problem. And yes we mentioned this to him. ?

I agree it will take time to sink in. I just don't want him to feel it's our problem to pre-chew his life for him... and was wondering if "get a job when you're 15" is too raw. It wasn't for me but then, my mom also said "pay rent, study full time, or get out of the house at 18" seemed completely and totally reasonable to me as a kid and even now, but I have learned to my amazement that the middle class doesn't usually do that to their kids.

That's why I'm posting here, to make sure this isn't one of those "what is real life for the working class is child abuse to the middle class" situations. I truly appreciate all your thinking through it with me.

[Liz CA]

5 hours ago, Tsuga said:

 

Point being, we are "owning" this problem for him and I think he needs to own it.

 

 

The bolded: I'd definitely avoid this and agree with you.

I am not sure I got this right...he keeps asking but does not get money or he keeps asking and gets money? This was confusing to me because after asking x amount of times with no success, most people abandon this track and search for another approach.

[sassenach]

As a family that has never done allowances, I don't think it's too harsh. My son has worked since he was 12. His main gig has been umpiring little league games, but he has also babysat, been a camp counselor, and painted houses. He bought his first car at 14 (he's eagerly anticipating actually getting to drive it solo soon). 

My 13yo has spent 2 summers being a volunteer camp assistant so that she'll be on the shortlist for a camp counselor job for next summer. She babysits, too.

My eldest also worked from about 12 on. 

I won't say it's the only way, but my kids can hustle and I think that's a life skill worth having.

 

[Pen]

6 hours ago, Tsuga said:

 

I think options that do not participate in the animal-to-market supply chain are incredibly rare outside of maybe 20-30 major metro areas. You can't do most retail because of leather and cruelty; you wouldn't want to do petrol or anything selling food at all, outside of highly specialized vegan stores. JoAnne Fabrics sells leather. Out. Michael's sells leather. Out. I could go on and on. If you're taking a stand go for it but it's not simple at all.

Knowing that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to survive is an important skill. I know someone right now who can't believe she can't continue to get unemployment... I mean do they know how hard it is to get a full time job as a painter?  Like, good for her, she's principled, but I'll take my cold hard cash. We just aren't that rich.

 

I do want to emphasize that there's never been a bank. He just keeps repeating the same behavior because why not?

We try to tell stories about our starts, but I think their sense is, "Well you clearly liked walking across town to clean toilets. When I find something I like as much as you liked using Clorox, I'll do the same!" It's really hard to explain that we didn't like it at all without sounding like we are complaining. But yes, we do need to do this more.

 

Absolutely--that happens 3x / day and he is responsible for another room. 100% agree.

 

I agree and we do try to do that. We live within walking distance of two malls and at least five little other shopping areas. We explained, you apply online then go door to door and give them a printed resume. We have talked through it. "Go on a Monday when the manager is likely there." Etc. This is where he views it kind of as our job to make it seem appealing to him or easier than it is or something? Point being, we are "owning" this problem for him and I think he needs to own it.

Also, did I mention his school has a counselor devoted to this? So it's not like he has no resources. I almost feel like it's too easy and he thinks it will be easy any time, but it's actually better the younger you start because at that point the "no experience" thing isn't a problem. And yes we mentioned this to him. ?

I agree it will take time to sink in. I just don't want him to feel it's our problem to pre-chew his life for him... and was wondering if "get a job when you're 15" is too raw. It wasn't for me but then, my mom also said "pay rent, study full time, or get out of the house at 18" seemed completely and totally reasonable to me as a kid and even now, but I have learned to my amazement that the middle class doesn't usually do that to their kids.

That's why I'm posting here, to make sure this isn't one of those "what is real life for the working class is child abuse to the middle class" situations. I truly appreciate all your thinking through it with me.

 

I think as long as it is true that getting a job locally can be done at 15, that this approach is fine, and yes, he should own it. 

The one thing I think you might do is be sure that the mall stores or other businesses near you do hire 15yo kids. In our region, although that would be legal , 16 seems to be the actual minimum age . And quite a lot of places want age 18. But we are still in recession with a lot of jobs like scooping ice cream or flipping burgers going to adults, so it could be a lot different elsewhere. 

 

[Guest]

Quote

gree and we do try to do that. We live within walking distance of two malls and at least five little other shopping areas. We explained, you apply online then go door to door and give them a printed resume. We have talked through it. "Go on a Monday when the manager is likely there." Etc. This is where he views it kind of as our job to make it seem appealing to him or easier than it is or something? Point being, we are "owning" this problem for him and I think he needs to own it.

 Also, did I mention his school has a counselor devoted to this? So it's not like he has no resources. I almost feel like it's too easy and he thinks it will be easy any time, but it's actually better the younger you start because at that point the "no experience" thing isn't a problem. And yes we mentioned this to him. ?

I agree it will take time to sink in. I just don't want him to feel it's our problem to pre-chew his life for him... and was wondering if "get a job when you're 15" is too raw. It wasn't for me but then, my mom also said "pay rent, study full time, or get out of the house at 18" seemed completely and totally reasonable to me as a kid and even now, but I have learned to my amazement that the middle class doesn't usually do that to their kids.

That's why I'm posting here, to make sure this isn't one of those "what is real life for the working class is child abuse to the middle class" situations. I truly appreciate all your thinking through it with me.

 

I do think there are people who think this would be too harsh; my SIL was one of them when her kids were teens. But, like you, I think it is important for teens to have jobs because it will show initiative later when they apply for other jobs. IMO, I would be leery of hiring, say, an 18yo who had held no previous jobs. 

I think the overall culture has emphasized to the younger generation that their work (careers) should be fulfilling and well-suited to their gifts. And, while that is certainly ideal, I think many have gotten some idea that their every job should be a perfect match for them. This is one of the critisicms I see leveled at Millennials that has some accuracy. It’s like they don’t think they should ever have to stoop to just doing some job, any old job, if it pays. 

I had to sort of spell this out to my son. He was bugged about his McDonald’s job at the end of last summer; it was so mind-numbing and he hated the sameness of it and the boredom and lots of the other workers were not coming back, so why should he? But I encouraged him to muddle through, to go on a leave for the school year instead of quitting outright. I said the first several jobs he does are probably not going to be something he dreamed of doing, but that he would survive, learn a lot about people and earn money. I’m so glad he did middle through, because he was reinstated in that job after school finished and it will look better for future resumes. For all I know, he may be able to get work at a different McD’s through college as well, whoch makes him only look that much better.