article: another cheating method for SAT and ACT

[MarkT]

https://nypost.com/2018/05/02/rich-parents-are-using-doctors-notes-to-help-kids-cheat-the-sats/

wonderful

 

[RootAnn]

In wonder what the publicity on this will do to the accommodations procedure and to those who have a real medical need for extra time.

[Corraleno]

I call BS on that article. I don't doubt that a small handful of wealthy parents may have managed to game the system, but it takes far more than "a doctor's note" to get extra time. It costs thousands of dollars for the extensive psychological testing required, and the tests have to prove there is an actual learning disability. Maybe there are a few kids who cheat on the psych tests, in order to seem more disabled than they are, and maybe there are a handful of doctors who are willing to flat out lie, but this is really not a rampant problem.

ETA: The ACT and College Board also require require proof that students have the same accommodations in place at their school that they are requesting for testing, and that these accommodations have been in place for some time; in order for students without LDs to get extra time, they would not only need a doctor to lie, they would also need a school official to lie and say they had a 504 or IEP in place for several years. A student who suddenly develops ADHD at the beginning of 11th grade and wants accommodations on the SAT is very unlikely to get them. I know of people with genuine learning disabilities who truly deserved accommodations who did not get them because they didn't have adequate documentation of prior accommodation, even if they had the testing that showed a need.

The percentage of students taking the tests who get any kind of accommodations is only 3-5%, and that includes ALL accommodations, including those for physical disabilities. That figure actually seems low to me compared to the total percentage of high school students with LDs — the figure just for ADHD is close to 10%. Add in dyslexia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia, and various physical disabilities, and the percentage of kids who are getting accommodations is actually quite a bit smaller than the percentage who would theoretically qualify for them.

[SanDiegoMom]

I don't know... my friend swears this is a huge issue in her affluent West Coast city. Her friend is an SAT tutor and says roughly half the kids she tutors (she's very pricey, so they are mostly well off) have accommodations.  But yeah, it would be helpful to be able to have better data, as my info is just anecdotal! 

I've never heard of a four day SAT. 

[Corraleno]

I don't think it's surprising that a large percentage of kids who are getting extensive SAT tutoring also have accommodations though, since they are the most likely to need help with things like pacing, being able to skim quickly for essential information, etc. Wealthy kids definitely have an advantage, although I think it's less about wealthy families being able to fake LDs in order to get undeserved accommodations, and more about poor families not being able to afford either the testing necessary to get deserved accommodations or the kinds of test prep that can greatly improve speed and accuracy. 

I wish they would just eliminate (or at least significantly reduce) the impact of restricted time on test scores. How quickly someone can get through the test is more a measure of innate processing speed than college preparedness or even general intelligence. I wouldn't increase the time that much, but I would shorten the test so that an average student could complete all the questions within the allotted time. The tests should be measuring whether students can answer the questions correctly, not what their processing speed is or how many tips and tricks they learned through extensive prep. That would be more fair to everyone, and IMHO would be a better predictor of college success.

[MysteryJen]

This stuff makes me crazy. If you have a 504 or IEP in place at school, the counselor requests accommodations that are equivalent. My dd2 got time and a half for the PSAT and it was Long. Five and half hours, nearly the whole school day. Double time was two days for the SAT.

Parents can do what they want, but unless you have a school counselor on board (if you go to a b&m school), I would think it would be hard to get accommodations. Homeschooled kids whose parents looked ahead for high school usually have masses of paperwork for testing and applying for accommodations.

My dd2 is rightly annoyed at people who think she has an advantage on testing. She likes to tell them, dyslexia and slow processing are 24/7 for her whole life, not just on SAT day.

Sometimes, I despair at the world.

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

This stuff makes me crazy. If you have a 504 or IEP in place at school, the counselor requests accommodations that are equivalent. My dd2 got time and a half for the PSAT and it was Long. Five and half hours, nearly the whole school day. Double time was two days for the SAT.

Parents can do what they want, but unless you have a school counselor on board (if you go to a b&m school), I would think it would be hard to get accommodations. Homeschooled kids whose parents looked ahead for high school usually have masses of paperwork for testing and applying for accommodations.

My dd2 is rightly annoyed at people who think she has an advantage on testing. She likes to tell them, dyslexia and slow processing are 24/7 for her whole life, not just on SAT day.

Sometimes, I despair at the world.

Yeah, the teens quoted in that article whining about how unfair it was that their parents did not commit fraud in order to get them extra time they didn't deserve... I have no words.  

[Mom22ns]

The article says 5% of students taking the test get accommodations. That doesn't seem at all out of line with the number of students that would actually require accommodations. If you told me 20% of the students taking the test get accommodations, I would be concerned about fraud, but not 5%. Accommodations, as other have noted, take more than a simple doctor's note. They require a history of accommodations in the education setting, 504 or IEP, Parent or counsel letters. It isn't trivial and even still, accommodations are often denied. I don't see it as at all likely that this will become a major issue. 

I also do see that kids getting tutoring in a "West Coast City" are very likely to have a high rate of ASD or ADD. It is rampant in the computer industry. Dh is VP of applications development in a relatively small business and at one time every one of his programmers was on the spectrum, although he now has a few NT individuals working for him lol. 

[Farrar]

Boohoo, I run out of time on the ACT, but I get to be neurotypical all the time.

My sympathies, kid.

People with too much money will always find ways to game the system. But pardon me if I found that whole article offensive.

[Farrar]

You know what this reminded me of? The other day a Western-medicine denying mom I know posted a piece about how a common over the counter drug was causing kids to "go crazy" and have "serious health issues." Except, no that's not what it said. It was a bunch of parents whose kids had taken the OTC medicine and then also had other problems. There was no data. They talked to no actual doctors, nurses, or other medical practitioners. They just talked to freaked out parents. The "statistics" they gave were how many people were also freaked out, which is meaningless. This piece was the same way. Whiny parents. Statistics that don't mean anything. Diagnosis of learning disabilities is going up in general, so I would *hope* more students are getting accommodations. The one quote from a psychologist said he only diagnoses learning disabilities when he can ethically do so.

[Tsuga]

6 hours ago, MarkT said:

https://nypost.com/2018/05/02/rich-parents-are-using-doctors-notes-to-help-kids-cheat-the-sats/

wonderful

 

I think calling into question everyone else's diagnosis is ridiculous and petty. If you want a diagnosis go keep bugging the school district until you get one. They're already worn down from dealing with kids who have real problems, not to mention still more kids with made-up problems. Otherwise deal with it.

In other related news, college admission actually depends on parental financial status. So, yeah, life is officially unfair.

On a positive note, we need to re-think what it means to be exceptional and special needs, because the fact is that many of these issues exist on a continuum. For the extreme cases, it seems absurd that anyone would envy that "privilege" of accommodations for disabled people. But most people who have a neuro-psychological issue are not on the most extreme end, but very near people who can't be classified as having that issue. Those people compare to one another. Nobody wants severe ADHD and three hours on a test because that really won't get you anywhere because you're not going to be able to get to class anyway. But someone who has 6/10 markers may envy the fact that another person who had 7/10 markers on a bad day, gets three hours, and you can see how that would be frustrating.

I can see how it must be frustrating to have your reality questioned, but it's important to realize that the reality goes both ways. The article below (which does not deny the existence or severity of ADHD and its impacts) describes a way of thinking about it that might shine light on how some parents feel. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/01/04/459990844/were-thinking-about-adhd-all-wrong-says-a-top-pediatrician

[Tsuga]

46 minutes ago, Farrar said:

People with too much money will always find ways to game the system. But pardon me if I found that whole article offensive.

 

I mean it's the New York Post so... you know it's not written for nuance.

 

[kirag714]

Oh man, the hoops I had to jump through to get my middle daughter accommodations on the ACT (the College Board process for the SAT was somewhat easier!) - she has intractable epilepsy and is on multiple epilepsy meds that slow her processing speed. She was denied the first time, even with her neurologist's letter, the support of her school counselor and documented accommodations at her school. I actually sent them the entire 15 page neuropsych report that she did as part of her epilepsy surgery workup.

And as others have said, once you have the accommodations the test is now 6-7 HOURS long. It's a marathon! Thank god she did well enough that she only needed to do the ACT once.

I truly can't imagine going through all that if it wasn't needed, and in my experience for the ACT it would be very difficult to be successful. 

And yes, she had ignorant people telling her she was "lucky" to be able to get those accommodations. Ugh, she gets to live with epilepsy for her entire life. Most people have no idea what that is really like, but if they did I feel quite sure that they would not trade their situation for hers.

[Julie of KY]

It annoys me that people call into question everyone's motives - especially as a mom of multiple smart kids with learning disabilities. 

What I really wish, is that they'd give everyone more time (and then more for those who need accommodations). If you want to test the actual abilities, it doesn't make sense for masses to be complaining of running out of time.

[shawthorne44]

 

I do think that some schools are more - lenient - on granting accommodations.   For example, I've heard that the expensive private school near where I used to live had >60% getting extended test time.   This isn't a school geared to those with disabilities.   It is just that parents complain loudly if they want it for their kid and don't get it and the parents are paying $$$.  So, I could see how, for certain kids, that translates into SAT accommodations.   If you are someone that plans on spending 30K on college application consulting, a few thousand on getting accommodation testing is nothing.  .  

 

[skimomma]

Does anyone know if the colleges know that a student had accommodations when their score is reported to them?  And if not, is a student's accommodation needs declared during the application process? 

It's a little off-topic but this thread had me thinking about accommodations and the role they play in my classes as a university instructor. 

[Mom22ns]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

Does anyone know if the colleges know that a student had accommodations when their score is reported to them?  And if not, is a student's accommodation needs declared during the application process? 

It's a little off-topic but this thread had me thinking about accommodations and the role they play in my classes as a university instructor. 

 

No, colleges do not know if accommodations were used during testing, and no, disabilities do not have to be declared during the college application process. Either one of those ideas would violate the student's right to privacy and could lead to discrimination.

[Serenade]

I think everyone should have more time.  I don't understand why the questions have to be answered so quickly.  

One of the smartest men I know (he developed a major medical patent), speaks and processes things very slowly, or so it appears.  The first time I met him, I thought it a bit odd -- it was quite noticeable.  Yet, that man is so smart, and not speaking/processing quickly has nothing to do with his intelligence.  I think he has so much going on in his brain that sometimes he has to corral some of his other thoughts before he can respond to a question.  

[skimomma]

15 hours ago, Mom22ns said:

 

No, colleges do not know if accommodations were used during testing, and no, disabilities do not have to be declared during the college application process. Either one of those ideas would violate the student's right to privacy and could lead to discrimination.

 

This was my assumption but thought I would check.  This means it is on the student and parents to assess whether the schools and/or degree programs considered are a good fit with someone needing that particular accommodation.  I know the requirements for being granted accommodations at my school are much looser than they are for testing so any student that had approved testing accommodations is pretty much guaranteed at least the same accommodation once they are a student.  But unless the student proactively seeks out additional guidance/help to aid with overall success, it seems like they are just left to fend for themselves?  I have observed a significant (factor of 4) uptick in the number of my students requiring accommodations over the last 12 years.  And I am also seeing a pattern of lower performance (on average, there are exceptions) with these students.  I have no way of knowing for sure, but the problems I see most often are more executive functioning issues (failure to turn in assignments, attendance, not following directions, etc....), not raw ability.  I worry that they are not being supported, both during the application process (in order to protect privacy) and then once they become students (unless they choose to seek support).

To bring this back on topic, I am far more concerned about the success of students who have legitimate accommodations than the few that may "buy" their accommodation in order to inflate their scores.  The people in the latter category would just find another way to buy their way into whatever school they want so I'm not sure it really matters if they cheat.  As someone else mentioned, admission has more to do with income and anything else.  The admissions system is broken in way bigger ways than testing accommodations.  

[Lanny]

I read the article linked too by the OP.  Sad.  As someone wrote, when those "Snowflakes" get out of college or university and they need to earn a living, they will probably not have any accommodations that their wealthy parents can purchase for them.  For those students who truly have problems, IMO they should be able to get accommodations. For those who are "gaming" the system, they are IMO Heinous people. My Dd took the SAT last Saturday and she will take the ACT on June 9th.  I'm sure she would love to have more time.

[Meriwether]

I have wondered about trying to get accommodations for Ds13. I don't know if I could. I don't know if I should. He works very slowly, but he is getting faster. I know he could have easily qualified if I had gotten him tested earlier. A math lesson that he understood fine easily took several hours when he was little, sometimes up to 5 hours. He still has monstrously long school days, but he is faster after years of struggle. 

[Bootsie]

On 5/9/2018 at 9:10 PM, Serenade said:

I think everyone should have more time.  I don't understand why the questions have to be answered so quickly.  

One of the smartest men I know (he developed a major medical patent), speaks and processes things very slowly, or so it appears.  The first time I met him, I thought it a bit odd -- it was quite noticeable.  Yet, that man is so smart, and not speaking/processing quickly has nothing to do with his intelligence.  I think he has so much going on in his brain that sometimes he has to corral some of his other thoughts before he can respond to a question.  

While being able to answer quickly may not be an indication of intelligence, it does have an impact on a students' ability to be successful in a college setting.  If a professor is working through a long economics problem and says, "GDP was  1 million and then grew by 10%..."  and then goes on to talk about GDP now being 1.1 million, but a student takes a lot of time to be able to calculate the percentage change, the professor is on talking about the next topic.  

 

[Dmmetler]

My BK has extra time-and it just plain doesn’t help much. She struggles to focus for 3 hours, and is falling asleep while standing by the end of that time, and having 6 doesn’t give her the extra focus or stamina. What worked for her was to plan to focus on one or two sections per administration-not to get a scholarship, but just to get a score that placed her in classes at the right level at the community college-which was a lot more flexible at giving her the accommodations that really help-like someone reading the test out loud to her, or letting her use a screen reader to read to her, so she doesn’t have to struggle to read, or having all math hand scored so a human can see when she has reversed numbers, but did the math correctly for the problem she wrote down. 

[Dmmetler]

And, in contrast, DD had more than enough time  on the ACT even at age 10. I suspect that if she could have started the next section immediately, like she often did at home, her score would have been even higher, because for her, having to wait for the time to elapse was more stressful and fatiguing than the actual test.

I just don’t think extra time is as big of a game changer as many seem to think it is. 

[Bootsie]

18 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

My BK has extra time-and it just plain doesn’t help much. She struggles to focus for 3 hours, and is falling asleep while standing by the end of that time, and having 6 doesn’t give her the extra focus or stamina. What worked for her was to plan to focus on one or two sections per administration-not to get a scholarship, but just to get a score that placed her in classes at the right level at the community college-which was a lot more flexible at giving her the accommodations that really help-like someone reading the test out loud to her, or letting her use a screen reader to read to her, so she doesn’t have to struggle to read, or having all math hand scored so a human can see when she has reversed numbers, but did the math correctly for the problem she wrote down. 

The CC might be more flexible about accommodations so that grades in particular classes are good, but as a college professor, I have concerns about where this ends.  If I have a student that then comes into my finance class and misses all of the calculations because they reverse numbers and did the math correctly for the numbers they wrote, should they get credit for doing the math correctly?  Then, what happens when they go to work at the bank and they do the math correctly for the numbers they wrote, but not for the real numbers that exist in the individual's account?  The bank comes back to the university saying, "You aren't doing your job.  You told us this student made an A in finance, and can't do simple calculations."

[Dmmetler]

I kind of hope that had this been anything but the “get through basic math to check a box” for a vocational degree with little math involved,  they would have been a little less flexible. Her degree plan for the AA only requires one math class and is very flexible in what that math can be. In this case, she has severe dyscalculia, plus dyslexia and dysgraphia, and copying from the computer screen to do the work on paper, and then back to the computer was leading to a lot of missed questions  Letting her do it on paper and hand checking for partial credit at least showed the instructor where she actually understood, and where she needed help (and gave the folks who were tutoring her something to work with). 

 

[MerryAtHope]

10 hours ago, Meriwether said:

I have wondered about trying to get accommodations for Ds13. I don't know if I could. I don't know if I should. He works very slowly, but he is getting faster. I know he could have easily qualified if I had gotten him tested earlier. A math lesson that he understood fine easily took several hours when he was little, sometimes up to 5 hours. He still has monstrously long school days, but he is faster after years of struggle. 

Sounds like it's worth looking into.

[RootAnn]

2 hours ago, dmmetler said:

I just don’t think extra time is as big of a game changer as many seem to think it is. 

It depends on the kid. Some kids won't be able to get many more correct no matter how much time they have. Others just need a little more time to think. Mine could do the reading/english sections within time, but could have used more time on math and science. In terms of the composite, it wouldn't have been huge, but individual subsection scores would definitely have gone up. Increased practice did get her some of those gains.

More time doesn't help you know how to do the problems you have no clue on or provide you the answer to the questions you would just stare at for longer, but it can be a bump for some. It could be the difference between a 27 and a 30, but maybe not increase a 18 to a 20 because you do have to know the material for the extended time to bump your score.

[GoodGrief]

It's not really shocking that wealthier families have the means to get proper testing, diagnosis, and treatment for their kids. The fact that the testing and treatment is not more readily available to all in need is more an indictment of our resources and treatment of mental health.

Even if a very small percentage are gaming the system for higher SAT scores, well...it's just an SAT score, not the key to the kingdom as far as college admissions/scholarships.

There are also some potential long term disadvantages to have this sort of pre-existing condition documented, so it's not something one would typically want to do without serious thought as to the implications.

[GoodGrief]

On 5/9/2018 at 8:19 AM, shawthorne44 said:

 

I do think that some schools are more - lenient - on granting accommodations.   For example, I've heard that the expensive private school near where I used to live had >60% getting extended test time.   This isn't a school geared to those with disabilities.   It is just that parents complain loudly if they want it for their kid and don't get it and the parents are paying $$$.  So, I could see how, for certain kids, that translates into SAT accommodations.   If you are someone that plans on spending 30K on college application consulting, a few thousand on getting accommodation testing is nothing.  .  

 

The schools aren't granting accommodations; it's the College Board.

[Bootsie]

6 hours ago, RootAnn said:

It depends on the kid. Some kids won't be able to get many more correct no matter how much time they have. Others just need a little more time to think. Mine could do the reading/english sections within time, but could have used more time on math and science. In terms of the composite, it wouldn't have been huge, but individual subsection scores would definitely have gone up. Increased practice did get her some of those gains.

More time doesn't help you know how to do the problems you have no clue on or provide you the answer to the questions you would just stare at for longer, but it can be a bump for some. It could be the difference between a 27 and a 30, but maybe not increase a 18 to a 20 because you do have to know the material for the extended time to bump your score.

Having more time allows a test taker who is unsure about an approach to try multiple approaches which the student who has less time does not have the opportunity to do.  Also, some questions are where each possible answer can be "tested" to see if it is correct; in an algebra problem, for example a student might be asked to solve for X and four possible solutions are given in the multiple choice answers.  With more time, a student can plug each of the four possible solutions into the problem to see which solution works; that same student may not be able to find X if a solution is not given.  

[MerryAtHope]

6 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

The schools aren't granting accommodations; it's the College Board.

Well, both actually. You have to show both test results and a history of accommodations from the school to get accommodations through CB.

[hepatica]

I agree this article is complete BS. If anyone is really worried about the system being abused then they should focus on the fact that the College Board is still discriminating against students with disabilities by denying accommodations to students in violation of their own new 2017 policies and the 2016 DOJ rule on testing accommodations. 

There are too few accommodations, not too many. Up to 20% of the population is dyslexic. The CDC estimates that up to 11% of the population has ADHD. There is a real epidemic of anxiety among teens (that's not fake). 

It is still not always easy to get accommodations, even when your student has a formal school plan (just ask me how I know this). 

Extra time accommodations turn a 3 hour test into a 4.5 hour test. I know absolutely no one who is doing that if it is not necessary.

Extra time has no demonstrable benefit for students who don't need it. It has significant benefit for students who do.

It still requires a great deal of time, effort and often money to secure legitimate accommodations at school and for standardized testing.

Yes, there is discrimination, but it is definitely not against neurotypical kids.

 

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, hepatica said:

 

Extra time has no demonstrable benefit for students who don't need it. It has significant benefit for students who do.

 

Is there evidence that extra time has no benefit to students who have not been diagnosed with something that allows for extra time?  I have been looking for some research that indicates this, and I haven't been able to find any.   

[shawthorne44]

It would make sense that extra time would help anyone who wasn't able to completely finish the test and double-check all answers.  I'd been NM semi-finalist, and that wasn't me.  

 

 

[regentrude]

On 5/12/2018 at 7:32 AM, hepatica said:

Extra time has no demonstrable benefit for students who don't need it. It has significant benefit for students who do.

I disagree. Plenty of students would be able to score a perfect on the math section if they had time to work through the problems slowly, double check their answers, reverse engineer the questions by plugging the answer options into the equation - the concepts aren't hard, it's completing the questions in the allotted time that is. Likewise, slow readers are often not able to complete the science section.

Extra time would make a big difference even for neurotypical students and no longer allow differentiation at the upper end. Because, let's face it, it's not like the ACT questions are actually difficult - it's just hard to complete them in the limited time.

[Roadrunner]

I don’t know about ACT, but SAT gives a lot of time per problem. My neurotypical child had extra time leftover on both math and English sections. 

[hepatica]

Ok, on some level you all are all right, but the research on this is complicated and incomplete (my statement didn't reflect that complexity). When there is not enough time allotted to complete the questions then everyone benefits from extra time, so the ACT would be a good example of this. But, it is also pretty clear that kids with learning disabilities benefit much more significantly than students without learning disabilities. But, even here the research is complicated. It also depends on the difficulty of the task and the student taking the test. So, for example, if you compare students with reading difficulties or slow processing on simple fluency tasks, the differences between neurotypical and LD kids when given extra time are less than when you compare the effects of extra time on more difficult reading passages as you might find on AP or SAT tests. Also, the benefits of extra time are much more significant for students who are 2E, meaning otherwise highly intelligent but also slow processors or reading disabled. These students seem to benefit from extra time much more significantly than students or more average intelligence (using convention measures of intelligence) or ADHD students (I think I am remembering this part correctly). So it's complicated and the research here is ongoing.

Also, most neurotypical kids don't want to spend another 2 hours in test if they don't really need it, and that is certainly a problem for ADHD kids as well. In fact, the whole idea that extended time confers this massive advantage really misunderstands what is going on in the mind of dyslexic kids. It's a really imperfect solution. The brains of these kids are working so much harder on the same tasks that they are way more exhausted by a 4 hour test than a neurotypical kid. To then have to keep up that same level of energy for two more hours might explain why there are diminishing returns to extra time. Nevertheless, it is the only solution we now have, so imperfect or not we are stuck with it. 

On tests like the ACT, I think the real question is what is being measured? If speededness is part of the test's design then, I believe, that ought to be justified. 

I have a summary of the existing research somewhere...I'll see if I can find it. 

[EKS]

Here's an idea--construct the test so that time isn't a factor and then allow people to take as long as they need.

[hepatica]

Here is a link to one literature review. It's long, but there is a discussion of research on extended time starting on p. 16, and some charts summarizing the research on pp.46-47. 

[Bootsie]

9 hours ago, EKS said:

Here's an idea--construct the test so that time isn't a factor and then allow people to take as long as they need.

Often ability cannot be separated from the time it takes to do a task.  I recently went to someone to get my hair cut, she has the knowledge and ability to cut hair--if she is given enough time; but I will be looking for someone new to cut my hair because she is so incredibly slow at cutting hair.  This is important not simply in a work situation, but also in a classroom situation.  I can understand German if someone talks slowly, but there is no way that I could keep up with a lecture in German;  students have to be able to do work at a particular pace to be able to keep up with class lectures and discussions.

IME of teaching I have found that when people can take as long as they need on a test, the opportunities for cheating also multiply.  If you have to get in and focus on your test to get it done, there is less opportunity to engage in various cheating activities.  

 

 

[8filltheheart]

11 hours ago, jdahlquist said:

Often ability cannot be separated from the time it takes to do a task.  I recently went to someone to get my hair cut, she has the knowledge and ability to cut hair--if she is given enough time; but I will be looking for someone new to cut my hair because she is so incredibly slow at cutting hair.  This is important not simply in a work situation, but also in a classroom situation.  I can understand German if someone talks slowly, but there is no way that I could keep up with a lecture in German;  students have to be able to do work at a particular pace to be able to keep up with class lectures and discussions.

IME of teaching I have found that when people can take as long as they need on a test, the opportunities for cheating also multiply.  If you have to get in and focus on your test to get it done, there is less opportunity to engage in various cheating activities.  

I think there is a huge difference between unlimited time and the time crunch of the ACT and SAT. The speed required to complete the test vs say 30 more mins per section is not indicative of greater ability or knowledge, just processing speed. I'll use my current college grad as an example.  His lowest score every time he took the ACT was the science reasoning section. His scores on that section were in the low 20s. Why? Bc he is dyslexic and reads slowly and by the end of the 3 other sections,  he was mentally exhausted with the reading pace. 

This is a kid who had completed AP chem with a 5 (and a 99.something in PAH's class) and multiple 200-300 physics courses with the highest grade in every class he took by the time he took the ACT. He had math and statistics to match his science. Yet, according to the ACT, his science reasoning skills were barely college ready and avg.

He graduated college never having made less than an A in any course (his school on in the +/- system, so he never even made an A-.) He never had accommodations in college, so it wasn't a matter of "extended time" on college exams.  He took multiple grad courses in college (and still managed to have the highest grade in the class.)  So much for the validity of the ACT 's SR score and demonstrating what it is supposed to demonstrate vs speed reading and reading endurance. 

The "pace" factor of the ACT and SAT affirms kids with fast reading speeds by giving them high scores. They are not tests validating simply high levels of achievement. And slow processing speed kids with greater mathematical ability will score lower than kids with higher processing speeds and lower math skills if the high processing speed students have the basic math skills required. (Bc superficial skills are all that are required vs deep analytical skills and ability to apply to complex problems.)

Edited May 14, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart
Too much multitasking while grandkids here!!

[EKS]

On 5/13/2018 at 8:42 PM, jdahlquist said:

Often ability cannot be separated from the time it takes to do a task.  I recently went to someone to get my hair cut, she has the knowledge and ability to cut hair--if she is given enough time; but I will be looking for someone new to cut my hair because she is so incredibly slow at cutting hair.  This is important not simply in a work situation, but also in a classroom situation.  I can understand German if someone talks slowly, but there is no way that I could keep up with a lecture in German;  students have to be able to do work at a particular pace to be able to keep up with class lectures and discussions.

IME of teaching I have found that when people can take as long as they need on a test, the opportunities for cheating also multiply.  If you have to get in and focus on your test to get it done, there is less opportunity to engage in various cheating activities.  

My problem with how the tests are constructed is that they are using an easy thing to test--processing speed in the context of academic achievement--as a proxy for something more difficult to test--general intelligence and aptitude for college.  As a result, there are things on the tests, particularly in math, that can be done by brute force--meaning that given enough time, a person with less knowledge than the test maker is testing will be able to arrive at the right answer.  By eliminating these sorts of items and removing the time factor, the validity of the test would improve--that is, speed and intelligence would no longer be conflated. 

Another issue I have with the speed aspect is that test prep helps quite a bit.  I recently prepared for the GRE and discovered that practice allowed me to go from rushing to finish in the allotted amount of time (and getting many things wrong in the process) to being able to finish a first pass in half the time allotted which gave me ample time to go back through to be very sure of my answers (and my scores improved drastically).  My ability to do the things the test purports to be testing did not change in that time--it was my ability to take the test that had improved.

[EKS]

7 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think there is a huge difference between unlimited time and the time crunch of the ACT and SAT.

This is true.  I just said unlimited time in my previous post because there *are* valid tests of both intelligence and achievement that use this model, and it eliminates the need to decide how long is long enough.  Of course, the problem is that logistically there is going to need to be some sort of endpoint, and because the SAT/ACT are such high stakes tests, there will be people who just sit and sit even though they're done.

[hepatica]

16 hours ago, jdahlquist said:

Often ability cannot be separated from the time it takes to do a task.  I recently went to someone to get my hair cut, she has the knowledge and ability to cut hair--if she is given enough time; but I will be looking for someone new to cut my hair because she is so incredibly slow at cutting hair.  This is important not simply in a work situation, but also in a classroom situation.  I can understand German if someone talks slowly, but there is no way that I could keep up with a lecture in German;  students have to be able to do work at a particular pace to be able to keep up with class lectures and discussions.

IME of teaching I have found that when people can take as long as they need on a test, the opportunities for cheating also multiply.  If you have to get in and focus on your test to get it done, there is less opportunity to engage in various cheating activities.  

 

 

There are definitely tasks in life that demand speed and quick thinking, but these are certainly far from the primary skills necessary to do well in college. SAT and ACT scores are such weak predictors of both college success and life success that there is a level of absurdity to the way they have been over emphasized. And, the stinginess of these testing monopolies in granting accommodations is inexplicable to me. I often wonder what the rationale is for that stinginess. I haven't figured it out yet.

[TravelingChris]

All three of my kids were ADHD but only the youngest got more time and that is because she is dyslexic.  It does take her more time to read.  All her schoolwork takes more time than it does for others.  Yes, the testing was expensive but I had been accommodating her since she was starting school. All three kids scored around the same ACT scores.  

[frogger]

On 5/14/2018 at 9:43 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think there is a huge difference between unlimited time and the time crunch of the ACT and SAT. The speed required to complete the test vs say 30 more mins per section is not indicative of greater ability or knowledge, just processing speed.

 

I agree. I tried taking an ACT at home with my child. I think you just have to make yourself more robotic and find the fastest way to solve it without having to think. The fastest way to plug in numbers for a simple question about the mean of a list of numbers is not exactly a life skill nor does it take much thought. Well, maybe if you run a register for a living or a 10 key back in the day. You just have to not accidently hit the wrong digit in your rush. Even 5-10 seconds per problem extra would make a huge difference for a slow processor. Asking for 5 extra seconds for a problem is not likely to mean you are less able to perform in most careers that you need a degree for.

I actually wish they simply made the tests much harder with more variety of skills tested rather than just give so little time. Maybe have one test for speed and have other tests with more time but that required a lot more analytical skills.

The SAT does give more time so a slow processor could probably do better at it. My son will take that next week so we will see. When we go back over the test he always knows the answers before we look at the answer because he isn't in a rush.