Middle schoolers at community college

[Pawz4me]

DS18 started an early college high school program on the campus of our local community college when he was 14. He had no significant problems. But he was part of a group and was rarely in a class w/o at least one other early college student.  We're not religious or super sheltering and he's very gifted so his being exposed to adult level conversations wasn't something we considered a negative at all. The regular CC students seemed to value the early college students on group projects because most of the early college students were academically/intellectually superior to most of the regular CC students (I'm fully aware that's a big generalization and note I did say "most"). The jury is still out as he's just started at a four year university, but overall at this point I'd say spending four years on our local CC campus was a huge benefit to him.

[Bambam]

I'll echo what someone else said. 

When you drop a much younger student in the class, it does cause issues in the class. They should expect any additional help, but often professors want to see all the kids succeed. And if that younger student causes the class level to be dropped, slowed down, whatever, that is not fair to the rest of the students. (Which is why many of us homeschool, right? We want our kids to learn at their level/their speed and not be slowed down by the slowest student in the class.) The other college-aged students in the class may admire the younger student who is able to keep up, but they may also (more common, I think) look down on that student.

Said as one who did have a student start dual credit in 9th grade. She is now a junior in college. She thinks starting that young is not a good idea. Her younger sister is in dual credit now as a high school junior. That seems more age appropriate. 

 

Academic smarts aren't the issue. There is maturity issues as well. Many college students and professors would be uncomfortable with some discussions if there is a much younger student in the classroom. This isn't probably an issue with Spanish, but there will be before class starts conversations between students. 

 

I know it is in an inexpensive solution and therefore attractive. However, if cost were the only thing we considered, wouldn't we all have our kids in public school so we could work/make money/not have to purchase our own curriculum?

 

Why the hurry to get Spanish out of the way? 

[marbel]

My daughter started CC as a sophomore, taking art classes. She had no problems, but she wasn't too much younger than the others (and she looked and carried herself like an adult), so she didn't stand out too much.  But she felt uncomfortable joining clubs and getting involved. She just felt that she was too young, and having to be dropped off/picked up by mom didn't help.  (Though later she realized that a lot of people don't drive.)   That really didn't matter.  She said she's glad she didn't start any younger.  

 

Also a note about art classes - in her first drawing class she encountered nude models.  It wasn't a problem for her; I was surprised at first but then realized, well, duh, it's a college drawing class.  But a few people I know have been shocked by that.   

 

Re: college students hitting on her.  That didn't happen, but before the semester started I told her to start working on her withering stare if anyone approached her inappropriately.  She assured me "I've already got it down."

[teachermom2834]

Those options tend to be VERY pricey, while our CC tuition is a mere $46/credit. For the price of a single course through Stanford Online High School, my daughter could more than finish her associate's at the CC.

 

Plus paying $$$ for high school level courses means paying that much more in tuition for college since unlike DE, the high school courses do not shorten the time to the bachelor's.

Sure, financially it can make sense depending on the options involved. For us, de is paid for in part by a state grant that is not available until 11th grade. In our case a one semester cc class would run $550 or so. Not really a bargain. Our co-op was $120 for the year.

 

Finances are always a consideration but I don't think for most of us it is the only consideration. If seemed as if the OP was looking for input on age, not financial ramifications. But I admit having a 7th grader rack up college credits isn't really a priority for me. In fact, de for my high schoolers is geared toward meeting their academic needs, with college credit granted a bonus. So, that is how I come at the situation.

Edited August 27, 2017 by teachermom2834

[happypamama]

It can be very intimidating being the much youngest in a class. When I did DE in 11th and 12th grade, that was no big deal, but my freshman year of college, I took a senior level class that had some grad students in it, about a dozen students total. The next closest student was two years older, and most were three to six or so years older. It was slightly intimidating for me, and I was an extremely well-prepared, mature 18yo who had found the transition to college fairly easy. I can't imagine how intimidating it would be for most young teens to be that much younger.

 

Also, when I did DE in high school, there were many adult students in our classes. Not just 18-22 year olds but adults who had gone back to school or who were completing their degrees later. I did DE at a big university but at a campus that catered to people who were working full time. That meant large blocks of classes. I had multiple English and poli sci classes that met from 7-10 pm once a week. While it made the driving easier because it wasn't so frequent, it made for a very long day. So do take all of that into consideration as well.

[Mike in SA]

It so very much depends on the student.  Some act like we are talking about stereotypical middle school kids, which could not be farther from the truth.  These are exceptional kids, maybe 1 out of every ten thousand or fewer.  They cannot be compared in this manner - they have the maturity of kids 5 years or more older than themselves.

 

My wife and I started as middle teens, and while maturity may have been an issue, it was for none of the concerns described above.  Maturity mattered because we lacked executive skills.  Adult material, etc, was around us every day, anyway. 

 

Other students didn't show any resentment to us.  They treated us as peers, just as we needed and deserved.  Many classmates take pride in having had the opportunity to study with much younger peers who are poised to do great things.

 

I have no concerns about my 15yo taking college classes - he has proven he can do work on MIT's site, so why not a CC?  It's highly probable that my younger son will be starting at 12, and I have no concerns about that.  We have taught them how to handle the environment, and they are showing their capabilities.

 

I don't suggest that it is an easy path - quite the contrary.  Remarkably few kids can really handle it and come out with all A's.  However, I am thankful that our local colleges and universities are not narrow minded, and will accept kids who are in need of challenging material in an adult setting.

 

[Arcadia]

Regarding foreign languages classes that cater for older students in general, it is like listening to the Pimsleur foreign language learning CDs and the first lesson teaches the guy how to ask a girl out for a date/drink. We were listening in the car and my boys were amused.

 

My kids attend a Saturday German class that separate by skills and age groups. Not every parent is comfortable with the discussions in the >17 age group and they have a small class for middle age adults too. The middle age group people can talk for example about mid life crisis in conversation practice and it won't be out of place. My kids class takes about general teen angst for conversation practice time which is what my kids and husband prefer (I am neutral about that). So it really depends on the kids and parents preference.

 

Community colleges and campuses are another variable. My kids attended summer camps at community college campuses. Each one has their own vibe. The community colleges on main roads are easy to take the public transport to and less isolated which is a factor for us.

 

Also the satellite campus and the main campus can have different vibe. For example the satellite campus we were at is in the midst of a technology park and very near the transit center/interchange for busses and trains. We felt very safe there compared to the isolated main campus that we have to drive to or transfer busses to get there. As the busses mainly service the campus, the frequency depends on the campus needs.

 

While not a community college, our experience at a state university campus says that people's perception would be affected by where they go on campus. My kid was at a math camp at a state university. Some parents drop off and pick up their kids at the designated area. Some walk around. Some stay nearby.

 

There are homeless people sleeping on the benches and pavements, not an issue with us. There are panhandlers at the public sidewalks near the campus. We do get asked for money if we walk out of campus to Safeway across the street. One day when we were at the state university's library, a fight broke out at the main entrance of the library. The library has a back door entrance so people could still come in and leave the library. Still it was disturbing. It's also the library which had a p*rn viewing problem.

 

Whenever we have activities at this state university, my husband would call me when he has parked at the pick up lane and we run out to the car. It is just that bad. It was probably not as bad when Ellie's daughters attended that state university but it has been not very safe since we went there from 2006 because they have kids programs at the state university's library. The young adults go home in groups.

 

So it really is a mixed bag in terms of environment.

 

My kids aren't interested in dual enrollment because of permanent grades. They want to be able to get a B without freaking out about GPA and potential long term ramifications. So we continue paying for outsourced classes.

 

DS18 started an early college high school program on the campus of our local community college when he was 14. He had no significant problems. But he was part of a group and was rarely in a class w/o at least one other early college student.

My car mechanic's daughter was in a similar program except they have their dedicated building in that campus and there was minimal mixing. It was more to use the campus facilities and have community college lecturers teach them and the students graduate with a high school diploma and an associate degree.

 

The one my district has in the past and is starting back again is also a campus within a campus program. They get to use the facilities but clubs are closed to them. They aren't considered dual enrolled and they have specific early college administrators to report to.

[luuknam]

It so very much depends on the student.  Some act like we are talking about stereotypical middle school kids, which could not be farther from the truth.  These are exceptional kids, maybe 1 out of every ten thousand or fewer.  They cannot be compared in this manner - they have the maturity of kids 5 years or more older than themselves.

 

 

I didn't get the impression that the OP was talking about a kid like that. And even if she was, I don't think CC is the best place for the very first experience with any foreign language... now, if the kid had already learned a foreign language and wanted to learn a different foreign language, that'd be less of an issue. But it just doesn't sound like in OP's situation CC makes the most sense. 

[Crimson Wife]

 I know it is in an inexpensive solution and therefore attractive. However, if cost were the only thing we considered, wouldn't we all have our kids in public school so we could work/make money/not have to purchase our own curriculum?

 

Until you pay thousands of dollars per year on medical bills, don't look down your nose on those of us who need to not let the perfect (expensive online and/or HS-specific classes and/or private tutoring) be the enemy of the good enough (cheap DE).

 

I hate to use the expression "check your privilege" but it's appropriate here...

 

[Kassia]

Until you pay thousands of dollars per year on medical bills, don't look down your nose on those of us who need to not let the perfect (expensive online and/or HS-specific classes and/or private tutoring) be the enemy of the good enough (cheap DE).

 

I hate to use the expression "check your privilege" but it's appropriate here...

 

 

I just want to point out that DE is not cheap for all of us.  We pay full price here (well, my dd received 4 credits from the state, which only covers tuition and not books) for tuition and books.  It is a lot of money for us.  But we've had mostly good experiences with our CC - excellent professors who are very dedicated, small class sizes, etc.

[Mike in SA]

I didn't get the impression that the OP was talking about a kid like that. And even if she was, I don't think CC is the best place for the very first experience with any foreign language... now, if the kid had already learned a foreign language and wanted to learn a different foreign language, that'd be less of an issue. But it just doesn't sound like in OP's situation CC makes the most sense. 

 

Maybe not, but I deliberately chose not to assume.  Middle schoolers in college are an unusual bunch, and just that additional bit of lensing may be useful to some who aren't quite sure if their kids are ready.

 

Fwiw, I believe my son (now 15) would have been far better off taking language at CCs when he started studying them (10 Latin & 12 German).  His progress has been hampered by the slow plodding courses he has been taking.  I am sure that he would have been very successful in a college setting.  He has a gift for languages, though, so ymmv.

[Arcadia]

Fwiw, I believe my son (now 15) would have been far better off taking language at CCs when he started studying them (10 Latin & 12 German). His progress has been hampered by the slow plodding courses he has been taking. I am sure that he would have been very successful in a college setting. He has a gift for languages, though, so ymmv.

My oldest wants to learn a few languages but is only taking German and Chinese formally. I don't think community college classes would have worked for your 15 year old as well as a personal tutor would or maybe a high level college class for heritage speakers. I can teach my kids Chinese if I want to but not German or French which oldest learn on his own as he doesn't want a class. Having someone to ask when stuck daily is like being in an immersion camp/program.

 

A CC class for heritage speakers would still be better than slow prodding classes of course.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Arcadia

[Pawz4me]

.

 

 

My car mechanic's daughter was in a similar program except they have their dedicated building in that campus and there was minimal mixing. It was more to use the campus facilities and have community college lecturers teach them and the students graduate with a high school diploma and an associate degree.

 

The one my district has in the past and is starting back again is also a campus within a campus program. They get to use the facilities but clubs are closed to them. They aren't considered dual enrolled and they have specific early college administrators to report to.

 

DS's early college program has a section of one building for their own use. A few of the classes for freshmen and sophomores are high school only classes and are taught in that area. But for the most part the kids are out on the regular CC campus taking classes with the other college students. They start as freshmen taking two college level classes per semester. I don't know that all of the CC clubs and extra curriculars are open to them, but many are. DS was an ambassador for the CC for two years while he was an early college student--he led tours, helped with CC open houses, etc.

[regentrude]

It was just very very strange for most of the other students there. And my dd is used to working with a wide variety of ages and people in different stages. She didn't dislike the kid personally, but he was just THIRTEEN years old. She felt obligated to kind of guide him because someone needed to, and she was irritated that she couldnt focus on her studies because this too young student happened to be in her lab group. Another two or three years, it probably would have been fine.

 

Then the issue is not the student's age, but that he was not prepared to be there.

At age 13, my DD helped her partners with the group work in her college physics course; she was the strongest student in the entire class. 

At age 15, she tutored calculus based engineering physics to eng and science majors.

 

Of course a kid who is not prepared should not be in college - that detracts from the learning experience for the other students. OTOH, it may also be that an old student is unprepared and should not be there either. But it has nothing to do with the age.

Edited August 27, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Re: college students hitting on her.  That didn't happen, but before the semester started I told her to start working on her withering stare if anyone approached her inappropriately.  She assured me "I've already got it down."

 

We had  a few instances with college students hitting on DD. After all, she was tutoring, so they naturally assumed she was college age. Everybody backed off immediately when she told them her age. It was never a problem. Withering stares were not required; a sweet "you know I'm 14, right?" was entirely sufficient :)

[luuknam]

Maybe not, but I deliberately chose not to assume.  Middle schoolers in college are an unusual bunch, and just that additional bit of lensing may be useful to some who aren't quite sure if their kids are ready.

 

 

Unless the OP lives in an area with an exceptional school district, I think it'd be unlikely to have a kid that exceptional, have them do CC in 7th and 8th grade, and then plan to enroll them in high school. 

 

I don't know that non-CC language courses have to be slow and plodding. 

[bettyandbob]

We had  a few instances with college students hitting on DD. After all, she was tutoring, so they naturally assumed she was college age. Everybody backed off immediately when she told them her age. It was never a problem. Withering stares were not required; a sweet "you know I'm 14, right?" was entirely sufficient :)

 

When I was 16, working long hours and taking a full college load, telling men who assumed I was much older that I was 16 made them run (literally run). 

[regentrude]

On the topic of foreign language:

we studied at home in 6th-8th grade, and then DD started with French 2 at the university when she was 14. She took five semesters of French there while in high school, pretty much exhausting their course offerings. For us, it would not have made sense to have her start much earlier, because there are no higher level offerings.

 

I would see it as beneficial to enroll a 7th grader in CC for foreign lanague only if there are enough levels of courses offered so he could take classes throughout high school. I imagine this woudl be pretty rare for a CC.

[luuknam]

Looking at it another way, OP seems to want to do a foreign language at the CC because in her school district, 7th and 8th graders take a foreign language. If the kid is really exceptional, it probably wouldn't be a big deal to enter 9th grade without having had that foreign language in 7th and 8th. I mean, heck... while *technically* I had English 1 hour a week in 6th grade, the teacher spent half of the time moaning about this new requirement and the other half of the time letting us watch a video in English. I didn't really learn much English at all (no homework or w/e for it either), and I still did great going to a bilingual secondary school in 7th grade, where half my subjects were in English. 

 

I just don't know that even brilliant kids need to take their very first foreign language at a CC in 7th grade where their grade will be permanent.

[Kassia]

Then the issue is not the student's age, but that he was not prepared to be there.

At age 13, my DD helped her partners with the group work in her college physics course; she was the strongest student in the entire class. 

At age 15, she tutored calculus based engineering physics to eng and science majors.

 

Of course a kid who is not prepared should not be in college - that detracts from the earning experience for the other students. OTOH, it may also be that an old student is unprepared and shoudl nt be there either. But it ahs nothing to do with the age.

 

This has been our experience as well.  

[amyx4]

Ds started at the CC right after he turned 15 and would have been a high school sophomore. During high school, he ended up taking classes at two different community colleges and a StateU. He preferred to be at the campus where the professors did not know he was a dual enrollment student.

 

So, his adviser would ask the professor if an underage student could enroll in their class. The professor could decline. If the student did sign up for the class, the professor wasn't told the student's name. So the professor knew that there was a dual enrollment student in class but not which one.

 

Ds also tried very hard to make sure that the other students in class didn't know his age. So, no varsity jackets, team tshirts, etc. When he took a public speaking class he asked my option on his topics to be sure he sounded old enough. If he spotted another dual enrollment student, he made sure not to sit next to them in class.

 

I don't if any of that helps. But for ds it was possible to keep his age discreet. 

[Mike in SA]

Unless the OP lives in an area with an exceptional school district, I think it'd be unlikely to have a kid that exceptional, have them do CC in 7th and 8th grade, and then plan to enroll them in high school. 

 

I don't know that non-CC language courses have to be slow and plodding. 

 

No offense - it really is not meant as such - but this is exactly the challenge ALs and the parents of those ALs face every day.  There is a complete misunderstanding of how, why, and where this phenomena comes to be.  There's no hyper-parenting, no exceptional schools, none of that. The child makes the acceleration happen, and they can do so living on a farm in the country (we know of one such case).  But, that isn't really the point I was making.

 

Languages at a full college pace can be very effective for a child who is ready to study at that pace.  Ours was, and is.  Thankfully, he does have a native speaker to tutor him regularly.  Otherwise, he'd be in another disaster of a blow-off course (for him, which is all that matters for his consideration).  HS-paced courses have always been too slow for him.  He would have thrived as a middle schooler taking a CC language course.  He probably should have been taking CC courses across the board for the last couple of years.  It's just who he is.  Others, maybe not so much.  Like I said, YMMV.  Only the parent really knows the child.

 

For the OP, if you have an exceptionally bright child, I wouldn't let anyone else deter you.  Do what you know is right.  If you really aren't sure if the timing is right, it probably isn't quite right yet.  If you just want to keep up with peers, then there are lots of options available beyond the CC.  A MS foreign language course often runs about half the speed of high school, which typically runs half the speed of a full college pace.  You will need to decide if your child is ready to work at 4x the pace of their age-peers, and carry an A/B grade in the process.

[regentrude]

A MS foreign language course often runs about half the speed of high school, which typically runs half the speed of a full college pace.  You will need to decide if your child is ready to work at 4x the pace of their age-peers, and carry an A/B grade in the process.

 

Very good point.

OP, you should also evaluate whether your student has enough of an iterest in the foreign language to devote so much time to it. You should expect two hours of work outside of class for every hour in class. So, a four credit hour foreign language class would require about 8 hours additonal work at home. Not every student who would be capable of working at college pace is also interested  and motivated enough to devote this many hours to the subject. I would only let a young teen do this if he was very invested in learning the language.

[luuknam]

No offense - it really is not meant as such - but this is exactly the challenge ALs and the parents of those ALs face every day.  There is a complete misunderstanding of how, why, and where this phenomena comes to be.  There's no hyper-parenting, no exceptional schools, none of that. The child makes the acceleration happen, and they can do so living on a farm in the country (we know of one such case).  But, that isn't really the point I was making.

 

 

I have no idea what you think I said. What I said is that OP is planning on enrolling her kid in a B&M high school for 9th grade and beyond (she said so in her OP)... and that if the kid is really at that highly exceptional level you're talking about, I'm having a hard time seeing how a kid doing CC courses in 7th and 8th grade is going to be happy going to high school after that, unless the high school is exceptional. I didn't say a word about pushing kids. 

 

I'm sure there are 12yos who can take a foreign language at the CC and get an A, despite never having studied a foreign language before. That said, people in CC courses typically have had some prior exposure to foreign language learning (not necessarily in the language they're enrolling in). I just don't know that there's much reason to make CC the very first foreign language course for anyone, especially with how easy it is to find books, videos, etc, in foreign languages for free or cheap (online, etc). I just don't think that not using the CC for foreign language has to be slow or plodding. Heck, overall I'm not convinced that one person teaching a group of 20+ people who don't know a language is the ideal foreign language learning environment, whether that's at a middle school, HS, or college. 

[Dmmetler]

As far as why a parent would send a child to take college classes, but to a B&M high school, a lot of high schools offer more range than middle schools do. A kid who is ready for college classes in some areas in 7th-8th might well thrive in a high school that offers, say, a lot of HL IB classes or AP capstone and opportunities for DE beyond that, if the environment is right socially. This is especially true in states that have state-wide magnets starting at 9th or 10th grade. Taking a CC class or two in middle school and having that to work on is a stopgap measure.

Edited August 27, 2017 by dmmetler

[Daria]

I have no idea what you think I said. What I said is that OP is planning on enrolling her kid in a B&M high school for 9th grade and beyond (she said so in her OP)... and that if the kid is really at that highly exceptional level you're talking about, I'm having a hard time seeing how a kid doing CC courses in 7th and 8th grade is going to be happy going to high school after that, unless the high school is exceptional. I didn't say a word about pushing kids. 

 

I'm sure there are 12yos who can take a foreign language at the CC and get an A, despite never having studied a foreign language before. That said, people in CC courses typically have had some prior exposure to foreign language learning (not necessarily in the language they're enrolling in). I just don't know that there's much reason to make CC the very first foreign language course for anyone, especially with how easy it is to find books, videos, etc, in foreign languages for free or cheap (online, etc). I just don't think that not using the CC for foreign language has to be slow or plodding. Heck, overall I'm not convinced that one person teaching a group of 20+ people who don't know a language is the ideal foreign language learning environment, whether that's at a middle school, HS, or college. 

 

But CC courses aren't at an exceptionally high level.  I would say that the courses at our CC (where my son who is definitely not an AL attends) are similar in difficulty to the 9th grade honors classes at our local public school, and that 9th graders who are taking AP classes, of which there are quite a few, are working at a higher level than first year students at the CC. 

 

Now, in some ways CC is much more demanding, in terms of organization and self advocacy and independence, but not in terms of academic challenge.  

[luuknam]

But CC courses aren't at an exceptionally high level.

 

 

I didn't say they were. I was responding to Mike, who was assuming the OP's kid was exceptionally gifted - for which I haven't seen any indication in the OP. 

[Daria]

I didn't say they were. I was responding to Mike, who was assuming the OP's kid was exceptionally gifted - for which I haven't seen any indication in the OP. 

 

You said that you'd have a hard time seeing how a kid would go from CC to HS, and I was justing pointing out that CC is often easier than HS, so I don't see why the transition would be that big a deal.  

[luuknam]

You said that you'd have a hard time seeing how a kid would go from CC to HS, and I was justing pointing out that CC is often easier than HS, so I don't see why the transition would be that big a deal.  

 

 

No, I said that I'm having a hard time seeing how an exceptionally gifted kid would be happy going from CC in 7th/8th grade to HS in 9th grade, unless the high school was exceptional. 

[Mike in SA]

No, I said that I'm having a hard time seeing how an exceptionally gifted kid would be happy going from CC in 7th/8th grade to HS in 9th grade, unless the high school was exceptional. 

 

Didn't mean to start a row!

 

I get the misunderstanding here.  Younger kids who can succeed in a CC course - and I will argue that most common CC courses are quite on par with low-level university courses - are often asynchronous.  Being able to succeed in one subject area does not imply success in others.  We all know that every kid has talents, but for some, the differences between those talents are often magnified.

 

Our local colleges (and uni's, for that matter) will occasionally cater to these needs.  Usually the local B&M schools will not.  That means no to DEs, but yes to early enrollment.  Older DS is doing precisely this, and younger DS will be all but forced to at some point in the near future.

[Arcadia]

No, I said that I'm having a hard time seeing how an exceptionally gifted kid would be happy going from CC in 7th/8th grade to HS in 9th grade, unless the high school was exceptional.

I can give you a possible scenario though. Take a new to the child language at CC for 7th and 8th grade then take the AP exam in 9th or take a new language in 9th at the high school. Exceptionally gifted kids can be asynchronous after all.

[Ali in OR]

Didn't mean to start a row!

 

I get the misunderstanding here.  Younger kids who can succeed in a CC course - and I will argue that most common CC courses are quite on par with low-level university courses - are often asynchronous.  Being able to succeed in one subject area does not imply success in others.  We all know that every kid has talents, but for some, the differences between those talents are often magnified.

 

Our local colleges (and uni's, for that matter) will occasionally cater to these needs.  Usually the local B&M schools will not.  That means no to DEs, but yes to early enrollment.  Older DS is doing precisely this, and younger DS will be all but forced to at some point in the near future.

 

And this is what I disagree with. The classes at our CC are easier than good high school courses and nothing at all like good university courses. The calculus course I'm taking now is meant to be an easier course but it's barely even calculus. We had 4 weeks of reviewing college algebra (a prerequisite), 3 weeks of differentials, and 2 weeks of integrals. There is a harder calculus course, but nothing higher than calculus is offered. CC's in areas with larger populations probably offer more, but even in the bay area the courses I took for continuing education credits were nothing like the university courses I took. Yes, harder than middle school offerings, but more comparable to college-prep high school courses than university courses.

[Crimson Wife]

Very good point.

OP, you should also evaluate whether your student has enough of an iterest in the foreign language to devote so much time to it. You should expect two hours of work outside of class for every hour in class. So, a four credit hour foreign language class would require about 8 hours additional work at home. Not every student who would be capable of working at college pace is also interested  and motivated enough to devote this many hours to the subject. I would only let a young teen do this if he was very invested in learning the language.

 

Depending on the specific language chosen, this may be an UNDERestimate of the work required. My DE student was warned that Japanese was one of the harder languages offered at her CC but that's the one she wanted to take (my brother's wife is from Tokyo and we went to Japan last year for their wedding). I don't know if she will take Japanese 3 or if she'll stop at the 2 semesters needed for satisfying the general ed requirements at our state's 4 year universities. Probably depends on how she does this semester in Japanese 2.

 

[Mike in SA]

And this is what I disagree with. The classes at our CC are easier than good high school courses and nothing at all like good university courses. The calculus course I'm taking now is meant to be an easier course but it's barely even calculus. We had 4 weeks of reviewing college algebra (a prerequisite), 3 weeks of differentials, and 2 weeks of integrals. There is a harder calculus course, but nothing higher than calculus is offered. CC's in areas with larger populations probably offer more, but even in the bay area the courses I took for continuing education credits were nothing like the university courses I took. Yes, harder than middle school offerings, but more comparable to college-prep high school courses than university courses.

 

Some may be worse, for sure.  I know the courses DW has taught at the local CC are essentially equal to the ones I taught at a top-20 uni.  I took calculus at another CC when I was younger, and it compared to what MIT uses on OCW.  Problems may be a bit simpler, but the texts and content were solid.  Most CCs have to meet a state standard to allow transfer to the flagship schools.  Courses intended to transfer must deliver comparable content.

 

AP's, on the other hand, are clearly stripped down.  Theory is almost absent.  The CC content >> APs (first hand experience on all counts).

[luuknam]

And this is what I disagree with. The classes at our CC are easier than good high school courses and nothing at all like good university courses. The calculus course I'm taking now is meant to be an easier course but it's barely even calculus. We had 4 weeks of reviewing college algebra (a prerequisite), 3 weeks of differentials, and 2 weeks of integrals. There is a harder calculus course, but nothing higher than calculus is offered. CC's in areas with larger populations probably offer more, but even in the bay area the courses I took for continuing education credits were nothing like the university courses I took. Yes, harder than middle school offerings, but more comparable to college-prep high school courses than university courses.

 

 

I'm wondering if the bolded is your issue. When I took Calc 1 & 2 at UTD, the same instructor taught the same course at the CC. I think that's quite common these days, tbh, since adjuncts etc have to scramble and often work at multiple CCs/universities to make a living. So, the CC course would literally have been the same as the university course, and people taking it at the CC hoping that it'd be easier were regularly sorely disappointed. That said, both the CC and the university had easier calc courses as well, such as "calculus for business majors" or something along those lines... not sure what the point of those is?

[kiana]

I'm wondering if the bolded is your issue. When I took Calc 1 & 2 at UTD, the same instructor taught the same course at the CC. I think that's quite common these days, tbh, since adjuncts etc have to scramble and often work at multiple CCs/universities to make a living. So, the CC course would literally have been the same as the university course, and people taking it at the CC hoping that it'd be easier were regularly sorely disappointed. That said, both the CC and the university had easier calc courses as well, such as "calculus for business majors" or something along those lines... not sure what the point of those is?

 

They tend to be heavily focused on applications rather than on theory. A business major really just needs some basic literacy with regards to concepts of calculus. Someone who's serious about going into finance or economics will often take regular calculus.

 

They also skip the trigonometric applications which have very little use in business. They focus a lot on polynomials and exponential growth. As such, they're often permissible for biology majors (again, the ones who are bound for grad school or med school tend to take regular calculus).

 

They frequently go into a few more topics than regular calculus classes because they're intended to be a single-semester class, so they will cover more integration. This is, of course, possible due to the theory and trigonometry being omitted. 

 

It is also common for them to focus quite heavily on the uses of technology for solving actual problems and have a heavy emphasis on setting up the problems correctly rather than on algebraic torture. 

 

Some people chose to take regular calculus because they felt more comfortable with theory questions than with the massive amount of word problems required in business calc. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by kiana

[Bluegoat]

Didn't mean to start a row!

 

I get the misunderstanding here.  Younger kids who can succeed in a CC course - and I will argue that most common CC courses are quite on par with low-level university courses - are often asynchronous.  Being able to succeed in one subject area does not imply success in others.  We all know that every kid has talents, but for some, the differences between those talents are often magnified.

 

Our local colleges (and uni's, for that matter) will occasionally cater to these needs.  Usually the local B&M schools will not.  That means no to DEs, but yes to early enrollment.  Older DS is doing precisely this, and younger DS will be all but forced to at some point in the near future.

 

The OP seemed to be saying that she wanted her daughter to have some Spanish now, to prepare her for Spanish in high school, because the ps kids will have had a few years of Spanish by the time hs starts.

 

There is no indication she thinks the daughter is advanced - otherwise she'd not want her to join her age/grade peers in grade 9 Spanish.

 

It seems pretty unlikely that grade 7 and 8 Spanish classes would cover the same kind of material as the ones in CC, so that the her daughter would be at the right level for grade 9 Spanish after finishing one or two years of it at the CC.  

[Mike in SA]

The OP seemed to be saying that she wanted her daughter to have some Spanish now, to prepare her for Spanish in high school, because the ps kids will have had a few years of Spanish by the time hs starts.

 

There is no indication she thinks the daughter is advanced - otherwise she'd not want her to join her age/grade peers in grade 9 Spanish.

 

It seems pretty unlikely that grade 7 and 8 Spanish classes would cover the same kind of material as the ones in CC, so that the her daughter would be at the right level for grade 9 Spanish after finishing one or two years of it at the CC.  

 

Again, I chose not to assume.  I didn't mean to start a row.  The nice thing about this board is that future home schooling families will be able to come for information that may apply to them.  They may be just like what one poster preconceives them to be, and may not.

[Kassia]

 I know the courses DW has taught at the local CC are essentially equal to the ones I taught at a top-20 uni.  I took calculus at another CC when I was younger, and it compared to what MIT uses on OCW.  Problems may be a bit simpler, but the texts and content were solid.  Most CCs have to meet a state standard to allow transfer to the flagship schools.  Courses intended to transfer must deliver comparable content.

 

AP's, on the other hand, are clearly stripped down.  Theory is almost absent.  The CC content >> APs (first hand experience on all counts).

 

Many of the courses my kids have taken as DE students at the CC were much better than the courses they ended up taking at our state flagship university.  Better instructors - many are Ph.D. professors who speak English clearly and are dedicated to student success - and smaller class sizes make a big difference.  Some of the classes at the CC were better than AP classes offered at our high school, others not so much.  In fact, one of the CC classes (Engineering Physics) is only taught in the evening because the instructor teaches AP physics at our high school during the school day.  So, same instructor, but the class is taught in one semester instead of an entire school year.  We've experienced some horrible AP classes (as well as some great ones) and mostly excellent DE classes.  

[Ali in OR]

My CC public speaking course instructor was good and taught the same course at both a local university and the CC where I took it. But my fellow students were less than inspiring as I noted above. For my math courses, I would say the problem is that I don't have great instructors. The college algebra instructor knew his math but he was a jerk. He yelled at the class if he saw a cell phone and he wouldn't answer questions he thought were stupid. He just shouldn't be teaching. My current instructor is much more compassionate but makes a lot of mistakes and is a bit unorganized. She told me I should be applying to teach math classes there and I just might (I'm taking the courses to refresh my own knowledge of upper level math and earn credits to renew my teaching credential--former high school math teacher). So I would call CC teaching uneven. You may get lucky, you may not. I think the best calculus teachers I have seen are in high schools. They're usually the best math people in the school but they also know how to teach and explain difficult concepts well.

[regentrude]

. That said, both the CC and the university had easier calc courses as well, such as "calculus for business majors" or something along those lines... not sure what the point of those is?

 

Business calculus omits trigonometric functions, which are vital for science and engineering, but less important for other applications.

[KungFuPanda]

My CC public speaking course instructor was good and taught the same course at both a local university and the CC where I took it. But my fellow students were less than inspiring as I noted above. For my math courses, I would say the problem is that I don't have great instructors. The college algebra instructor knew his math but he was a jerk. He yelled at the class if he saw a cell phone and he wouldn't answer questions he thought were stupid. He just shouldn't be teaching. My current instructor is much more compassionate but makes a lot of mistakes and is a bit unorganized. She told me I should be applying to teach math classes there and I just might (I'm taking the courses to refresh my own knowledge of upper level math and earn credits to renew my teaching credential--former high school math teacher). So I would call CC teaching uneven. You may get lucky, you may not. I think the best calculus teachers I have seen are in high schools. They're usually the best math people in the school but they also know how to teach and explain difficult concepts well.

This has to be tough to compare. I know our CC and local high schools offer classes higher than calculus.

[HS Mom in NC]

Mine were 15 and 17 when they started cc.  Students 16 and under had to have permission from the professor. She never had a problem getting it. If your kid is academically and emotionally ready and can handle adult talk, then it's fine.  Our kids were always in the top 3 students in each of their classes. They thought it was easy.

 

I wouldn't send a non-driving kid again.  I drove middle daughter for a semester and it was really annoying. We were 10 or 15 minutes away, depending on whether or not we made all the lights.  I still had youngest at home to homeschool, so it was a pain to drop everything and drive the middle kid. Oldest and middle had different schedules, of course.

If your kid still needs you for things like dealing with teachers, turning things in, signing up for classes, sorting out deadlines, etc. then they're not ready.  I did 2 things: went to the mandatory minor student counselor session and sign consent for my minor student to take classes.  My kids did everything else themselves.  They looked up and signed up for classes, got their books, turned things in, contacted professors as necessary, paid with our debit card for college expenses, the whole thing.  If they're not ready to do it without mommy holding their hands, they're not ready to do it at all.

Granted it's not just homeschoolers.  My middle daughter took a philosophy class where the professor handed out a contract type paper that basically said I won't have my mommy call and and argue with my professor because I'm a grown up.  Most students are late teens and twenty somethings in those first two year general ed classes and they had problems with young adult students getting mommy to handle their problems for them.

Don't be that homeschooler!  This is a secular environment. Expect secular thinking and secular talk.  There will be negative talk about different religions and philosophical points of view.  There will be other religious points of view. If your kid is going to be upset about that or if you are, don't send them.

Only once was middle daughter embarrassed about her age.  Her science teacher scolded some lazy students who couldn't contribute anything to the discussion because they obviously hadn't been keeping up with readings and assignments.  He said, pointing to her, "Maybe I should just ask the 15 year old.  She always knows the answer and she always get the assignments done. " She wanted to die for being dragged into it.

Once in an English class everyone had to divide up and group according to age. Someone asked her straight out how old she was.  When she told them she got a, "Holy sh!t! You're only 15." by a young man who had paid her some attention.  I think he was disappointed she wasn't an adult.  At that age she was regularly mistaken for being a late teen because of her demeanor in multiple venues. 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[madteaparty]

My middle schooler has taken 4 yr university classes. Two things:1. language classes usually easier than "regular" university classes IME, 2. Language classes at our local

*Community* college are absolute crap and I would not waste the time unless you are checking a box.

[Kassia]

 I think the best calculus teachers I have seen are in high schools. They're usually the best math people in the school but they also know how to teach and explain difficult concepts well.

 

We have had the opposite experience.  The higher-level math teachers at the high school were lousy, but the math professors at the CC were excellent.  I have a close friend who is the head of the math dept. at a state university and she was furious when she saw what the high school calculus teacher was sending home for assignments. 

[FaithManor]

As far as why a parent would send a child to take college classes, but to a B&M high school, a lot of high schools offer more range than middle schools do. A kid who is ready for college classes in some areas in 7th-8th might well thrive in a high school that offers, say, a lot of HL IB classes or AP capstone and opportunities for DE beyond that, if the environment is right socially. This is especially true in states that have state-wide magnets starting at 9th or 10th grade. Taking a CC class or two in middle school and having that to work on is a stopgap measure.

Yes. And performance groups are also a big deal. One is not going to go from 8th grade never played in the bad, never dang in the choir, never been in a debate, to being in the college orchestra, chamber singers, or debate team as a general rule. There is a level of group experience that is needed.

 

One local district offers four years of engineering now. A general introductory class for all students who exited 8th grade with algebra 1 and geometry with B or better averages and are interested, followed by an aerospace class complete with competitive rocketry teams as an extra curricular for students inclined to the additional challenges, followed by civil - the bridge building competition is awesome to see and the rocketry teams continue through all the years so students who get hooked on it do not have to give it up at the end of the aerospace year - and finishing up with electrical/applied electronics. During those four years competitive robotics teams are also functioning. These classes also take field trips not open to other students such as college tours of Kettering U, U of MI, MSU, Purdue, etc. as well as a weekend trip to the Great Lakes Science Center in Cleveland with tour of the John Glen Research Center. Only students in the engineering track are allowed those field trips. Oh and special speakers. They do have guest lecturers.

 

So when schools offer these types of specialized programs, there is real value to having advanced students in CC participate. This is especially true in our area where CC's are not robust, and offer very little for students beyond a few less than stellar A.A. or professional licensing programs, no music, art, etc.

 

It is all going to be dependent on what the local schools offer. Districts in my state have zero consistency between them so there could be a myriad of reasons to send or not send an advanced middle schooler capable of college level work.

[QueenCat]

The quality of CCs truly do vary from state to state, school to school. Many are on par with the average state college. One cannot assume that just because their area has CCs that are of low quality that others are the same. The ones here are good and you're ready for a regular 4 year state school after taking classes there. And you've paid less.

[Crimson Wife]

 

If your kid still needs you for things like dealing with teachers, turning things in, signing up for classes, sorting out deadlines, etc. then they're not ready.  I did 2 things: went to the mandatory minor student counselor session and sign consent for my minor student to take classes.  My kids did everything else themselves.  They looked up and signed up for classes, got their books, turned things in, contacted professors as necessary, paid with our debit card for college expenses, the whole thing.  If they're not ready to do it without mommy holding their hands, they're not ready to do it at all.

 

 

I 100% agree with this. I double-check my DD's proposed schedule to make sure she is ticking off the boxes needed to graduate high school and also satisfy the general ed requirements for transferring to one of the state's 4 year schools, pay her tuition and buy her books/materials, and chauffeur her.

 

Our relationship has definitely improved since I've been able to be more "hands off" with her education rather than trying to enforce the stupid UC a-g requirements. The general ed requirements for transferring from the CC to a UC school are WAAAAAY more flexible than the requirements for high school students applying for freshman status. She's doing well and has 22 credits towards the associates & eventual bachelor's.

 

[scrapbookbuzz]

If you really want her to take a college level foreign language course, look here first, to get her feet wet.

12/13yo is really not a mature enough age, IMO, to handle college beyond the academics. Let her try an online

course first, and/or a self-paced one, to learn the language. There are SO many resources out there for that.

[HS Mom in NC]

I 100% agree with this. I double-check my DD's proposed schedule to make sure she is ticking off the boxes needed to graduate high school and also satisfy the general ed requirements for transferring to one of the state's 4 year schools, pay her tuition and buy her books/materials, and chauffeur her.

 

Our relationship has definitely improved since I've been able to be more "hands off" with her education rather than trying to enforce the stupid UC a-g requirements. The general ed requirements for transferring from the CC to a UC school are WAAAAAY more flexible than the requirements for high school students applying for freshman status. She's doing well and has 22 credits towards the associates & eventual bachelor's.

 

 

I think some parents focus on the academic aspect of readiness and forget the life skill and mental/emotional aspects of readiness too.  I do sympathize with people whose kids are only academically ready for college level content and the parents don't want to teach on that level, but adult environments like cc are thoroughly adult and all factors need to be carefully considered.