S/O...12 year old Independence....what is real risk vs. perceived risk?

[nixpix5]

Like it or not, whether we are extreme free-range parents, extreme over-protectors, or something in the middle, all of our kids are guinea pigs in this experiment of parenting. Nothing is certain, and the conditions are always changing.

This is so true!

 

 

I think there is a huge gap between actual risk and perceived risk. I think the reason parents get hung up on it more than other situations where fear could kick in is that the loss is massive if it happens. It reminds me of the optimal foraging math calculation. In seagulls why do they continually select a medium oyster when there are plenty of small and also larger oysters in their vicinity? Well, the large oyster gives a huge calorie payout but the calorie expense getting it open isn't worth it. The small ones may be easier to open but you would need to open more than one to get the payout. The medium oysters are slightly harder to open than the small ones, so higher calorie payout but the reward is just right.

 

Ok, silly analogy but I think all creatures carry those innate actuary calculations as they go through life. Humans, because we can perspective take, empathize, forward think in such detail we thwart our own innate understanding sometimes. If you watch animals that only have one offspring they are much more helicopter parent than those animals that have more and expect to lose some. We are privileged and expect to keep all of our offspring alive. The loss is so great if that statistical improbability happens that some of us with huge amounts of primal anxiety for our kids just won't even risk it.

 

I try to override the fear so my kids can breathe and practice their own safety skills. I try to not watch ID forensic shows because they don't do anything good for my hovering.

[Carrie12345]

There is very little lightening in areas north of Seattle and in certain areas of Alaska at least.  I am sure there are other areas as well.

 

 

It's rare in California, too. If we get lightning around here, people literally talk about it for days.

 

We discussed lightning safety all the time when we lived in FL. 

 

Interesting!

I did know that even just rain is a bit of a novelty in parts of California, but I didn't think about lightning being even more so.  Still, I don't see how anyone would think it's a weird thing to teach kids about.  I mean, I don't live anywhere near public transportation and never really have, but I don't think it's a weird thing to learn for kids who *do live with it.

[kitten18]

Interesting!

I did know that even just rain is a bit of a novelty in parts of California, but I didn't think about lightning being even more so. Still, I don't see how anyone would think it's a weird thing to teach kids about. I mean, I don't live anywhere near public transportation and never really have, but I don't think it's a weird thing to learn for kids who *do live with it.

Almost all of our rain is in the winter, I think that's why lightning is rare.

[nixpix5]

Almost all of our rain is in the winter, I think that's why lightning is rare.

Funny aside but we were ar Disneyland one December standing outside the Tiki Room and it began to sprinkle...or mist really. We are from the PNW so we didn't even flinch but everyone around us whipped out their unbrellas. It was eye opening for us because that wouldn't ever happen in Seattle.

[KungFuPanda]

I watched an interesting TED talk last week talking about car seats and how effective they are at different ages.  It indicated that after about 2 if I remember right, being in a car seat might actually be worse than just being buckled in with a shoulder belt.  He had crash tests done.  If you are interested here it is...ted talk car seats

 

 

I've read three pages waiting for the Car Seat Crusaders to come after you. I have popcorn and everything, and NOTHING!?!?!

[eternalsummer]

I don't ever post in car seat threads here b/c of the crusaders.

[Bluegoat]

Interesting!

I did know that even just rain is a bit of a novelty in parts of California, but I didn't think about lightning being even more so.  Still, I don't see how anyone would think it's a weird thing to teach kids about.  I mean, I don't live anywhere near public transportation and never really have, but I don't think it's a weird thing to learn for kids who *do live with it.

 

I think it's not really so much teaching what to do about it.  It's that we don't worry about it in the same way we do with things like kids being kidnapped.

 

We get some lightening here.  My kids know to come in, not stand in a field.  They have heard a story about cows getting hit.  I think they always were told this when there was a storm and so the subject came up.  They also talk about it at ps when they cover electricity in science.

 

But I do not ever worry about them getting hit by lightening.  I don't stop them going out in case a freak storm comes up, even at the right time of year.  We don't talk about it all the time, once they know what to do.

[Mergath]

http://www.parents.com/kids/safety/stranger-safety/child-abduction-facts/

 

http://www.missingkids.com/KeyFacts

 

I fully understand that most abductions are done by people known to the child. Most are the parents. The second highest group are other known people and about 20-25% of abductions are by strangers to the child. It just does not seem worth it to me to give my kid 15 minutes of freedom walking a hotel hallway for the offset chance they could be taken and assaulted and/or murdered. They can have other ways to spread their wings.

 

ETA: I too spent my days playing away from the home and my parents didn't know where I was. I also was the kid who traveled to foreign countries alone at 15-16 on planes, airports, and public transportation. I still would not permit my child to walk a hotel alone as a 12-year-old.

 

According to the National Council on Sexual Activity Compulsivity, 6-8% of all Americans are addicted to sex - that's around 18-24 million people. And the number is estimated to actually be higher than this. Also, according to the Barna Group:

• "Eight in ten(79%) men between the ages of 18 and 30 view pornography monthly
• Two-thirds (67%) of men between the ages of 31 and 49 view pornography monthly
• One-half (49%) of men between the ages of 50 and 68 view pornography monthly
• One-third (33%) of men between the ages of 18 and 30 either think that they are addicted or are unsure if they are addicted to pornography
• Combined, 18% of all men either think that they are addicted or are unsure if they are addicted to pornography, which equates to 21 million men."

Addiction is a disease and it does rewire the brain. With sexual/porn addiction, impulses to get the next and better high are like getting the next and bigger high with drugs or other simulants. The addict is looking for the next fix. Porn is also a $13 billion industry. It has been banned in Iceland due to what they see it doing to their families and communities.

 

We also know that crimes rates have increased, people are desensitized to others' feelings due to the extreme involvement in social media and screen time rather than the face-to-face interactions of even two decades ago.

 

All of these things combine to make a more perfect storm for people to act out and do something violent.

 

Well, and to the PP who just said my LEO cousin who works in child crimes/internet work just has bias and says to watch out for hotels just because he sees it all the time. Fine. Call it what you want. 15 years ago his job was not even created yet - it did not exist. What does that tell you???????

 

Wait... you think a person who watches porn once a month has some kind of addiction? That would be like calling someone an alcoholic if they have a few beers once a month. There's WAY more to it than that.

 

Also, I can't find any references on google to the "National Council on Sexual Activity Compulsivity." As far as I can see, they don't exist as an organization. Link?

 

Iceland never banned pornography. You really should fact check this stuff before you post it.

 

And people have already called you out on saying that crime rates have increased, so I won't bother repeating them.

[Mergath]

:iagree:

 

My parents, born in the early 50's, had way, way more freedom than even most "free range" parents allow nowadays.  My grandmother's rule was that her kids had to stay on their block until they had graduated kindergarten.  Once they were official kindergarten graduates, then she would release them after breakfast and lunch every summer day and not expect them home until the next meal.  They could walk the half mile to play on the school playground.  They could walk the mile to the library or public pool.  They and their siblings (there were 8 of them total) could even walk the 2 miles to the Detroit zoo by themselves.

 

And nowadays I'm considered free range by some because I let my 8 year old play alone in our front yard.   :confused1:

 

Wendy

 

I let my 9yo go up to a block away by herself. I'm sure people think I'm downright neglectful. :lol: 

 

When I was nine, my limit was about a mile away from home. And I could be gone without checking in all day as long as I made it home before dark.

 

[KungFuPanda]

I don't ever post in car seat threads here b/c of the crusaders.

She said " . . . no car seat past age 2 . . ." WHERE is the mob with torches? I'm waiting here with s'mores fixin's like an idiot.

[theelfqueen]

She said " . . . no car seat past age 2 . . ." WHERE is the mob with torches? I'm waiting here with s'mores fixin's like an idiot.

 

First you have to tell us how you pronounce s'mores.

[MotherGoose]

Haven't read all the replies, but I used to be a social worker. Without any question at all, which someone has probably already mentioned, the statistics indicate that children are way way more likely to be abused by someone known to them than a stranger. I let my kids by age seven or younger go to the bathroom alone (girls). It might be different for boys. I tell them the safety rules, mainly to not go outside the store or anywhere with anyone no matter what. I would definitely let the girls, ages 8 and 11, now go into any bathroom anywhere alone. (Within reason of course, but I mean airports, theaters, stores, etc). Eleven year old recently realized, after she saw the urinals, that she'd gone into a men's room. (It was empty). Yes children are abducted, but, I know from experience, you really need to worry about uncle joe or whomever.

[KungFuPanda]

I let my 9yo go up to a block away by herself. I'm sure people think I'm downright neglectful. :lol: 

 

When I was nine, my limit was about a mile away from home. And I could be gone without checking in all day as long as I made it home before dark.

 

When we were growing up, we came home for meals unless we took a picnic lunch. We were the definition of free-range, but we NEVER ranged alone. We always had at least one other kid and one dog with us. Nobody we knew was allowed to take off for hours alone. I don't know if the parents had a meeting or what, but that was the universal rule. Probably so if you broke your leg doing something stupid in the woods, someone could get help.

[MotherGoose]

Wait... you think a person who watches porn once a month has some kind of addiction? That would be like calling someone an alcoholic if they have a few beers once a month. There's WAY more to it than that.

 

Also, I can't find any references on google to the "National Council on Sexual Activity Compulsivity." As far as I can see, they don't exist as an organization. Link?

 

Iceland never banned pornography. You really should fact check this stuff before you post it.

 

And people have already called you out on saying that crime rates have increased, so I won't bother repeating them.

Right, and having an addiction or what ever to adult porn doesn't mean you suddenly snatch prepubescent children off the streets. That's a whole different matter.

[LMD]

I'm sorry that happened to you. But you know what? I was growing up in the scary 90s in NYC, and... none of that ever happened to me, nor my sister. And now it's much safer, and none of that has happened to my kids, nor any of their friends. (Those kids don't keep secrets. I'd've heard them complaining about it.) Maybe you're Spiders Georg. I'm not going to restrict my kids on the say-so of an outlier.

 

Edit: Though I definitely understand that your childhood influences your parenting. I would expect you to be more cautious than I am. It's okay for you to do that, but I really get irked when people then try to make it sound like the rest of us are unloving and unworried about safety at all.

She's not an outlier! What she described was par for the course for me and my friends. My daughter turns 12 next week, and dh has already stared down a creepy old man. Often times waiting at/walking to the bus stop we would be grabbed at, called over to cars, flashed. That doesn't even count the creeps who had a 5 min opportunity to get you alone. The only time the police were notified was when I was 18 and a guy grabbed my breasts and tried to push me into the bushes, it was broad daylight in a safe area. They never caught him. Oh, and my friends reporting their rapes. They never caught him. Sensing a theme?

 

The statistics for women and children are awful. Saying 'it hardly ever happens' feels like gaslighting.

[KungFuPanda]

First you have to tell us how you pronounce s'mores.

Ha! I forgot to even open that thread. I say it all in one syllable because I'm lazy like that :-)

[MotherGoose]

And in regards to looking for help, I've told my children to look for a store employee or policeman, or if not,someone with children. Someone's mama or daddy will be happy to help you.

[wendyroo]

I've read three pages waiting for the Car Seat Crusaders to come after you. I have popcorn and everything, and NOTHING!?!?!

 

Yeah, I've watched that Ted talk and read about the findings in Freakonomics.  I always found the whole thing fairly ridiculous.  He is saying that a properly buckled two year old is safe enough in just a seat belt.  Okay, but who on Earth has a two year old who will stay properly buckled in a seat belt for an entire ride???  

 

Sure, his crash test dummy held remarkably still, but if I had been there, I could have made it more realistic for him.  He would have buckled in the dummy, turned around to the start the test, and, WHAT? the dummy is on the floor now!  Now he is rummaging in the glove box!  Now he is half out the window!  Let's see how well his dummy fairs in the crash test when he slithers out of his buckle and tries to crawl into the driver's lap.

 

Wendy

[eternalsummer]

Yeah, I've watched that Ted talk and read about the findings in Freakonomics.  I always found the whole thing fairly ridiculous.  He is saying that a properly buckled two year old is safe enough in just a seat belt.  Okay, but who on Earth has a two year old who will stay properly buckled in a seat belt for an entire ride???  

 

Sure, his crash test dummy held remarkably still, but if I had been there, I could have made it more realistic for him.  He would have buckled in the dummy, turned around to the start the test, and, WHAT? the dummy is on the floor now!  Now he is rummaging in the glove box!  Now he is half out the window!  Let's see how well his dummy fairs in the crash test when he slithers out of his buckle and tries to crawl into the driver's lap.

 

Wendy

 

Indeed, we use car seats until the child in question can be trusted to stay sitting in a normal seat belt.  I have not yet had a kid where this age is 2, but I also haven't had one who can't do it until 8.

[kitten18]

Yeah, I've watched that Ted talk and read about the findings in Freakonomics. I always found the whole thing fairly ridiculous. He is saying that a properly buckled two year old is safe enough in just a seat belt. Okay, but who on Earth has a two year old who will stay properly buckled in a seat belt for an entire ride???

 

Sure, his crash test dummy held remarkably still, but if I had been there, I could have made it more realistic for him. He would have buckled in the dummy, turned around to the start the test, and, WHAT? the dummy is on the floor now! Now he is rummaging in the glove box! Now he is half out the window! Let's see how well his dummy fairs in the crash test when he slithers out of his buckle and tries to crawl into the driver's lap.

 

Wendy

So true. 😂😂😂

[wendyroo]

Indeed, we use car seats until the child in question can be trusted to stay sitting in a normal seat belt.  I have not yet had a kid where this age is 2, but I also haven't had one who can't do it until 8.

 

I think it is unusual for anyone to have an 8 year old in a true car seat.  My 8 year old is in a booster, but that is largely for comfort, because without it, the seat belt digs into his neck.  He is autistic and has sensory issues - I want him as comfortable as possible when he is properly buckled.

 

OTOH, my 6 year old is still harnessed in a car seat.  He has quite a few mental health challenges, and simply is not trustworthy in a seat belt (he is barely trustworthy in a car seat).  I don't know when he will be ready to move to a seat belt, but that is not a transition I am going to rush until he has developed adequate maturity and self control.

 

Wendy

[Mama Geek]

I've read three pages waiting for the Car Seat Crusaders to come after you. I have popcorn and everything, and NOTHING!?!?!

I wasn't taking a stance for or against them by posting that.  I kept dd in one until it was legal for her not to ride in one.  I was born in the 70's and rode in the back of pickup trucks, sleeping in the backseats of hatchback cars on long trips and never remember being in a car seat.  I probably was when I was really young or maybe not, maybe my mom held me or something.  

 

I just thought the TED talk was well done and it shows a different opinion than most people have now a days.

[brehon]

When we were growing up, we came home for meals unless we took a picnic lunch. We were the definition of free-range, but we NEVER ranged alone. We always had at least one other kid and one dog with us. Nobody we knew was allowed to take off for hours alone. I don't know if the parents had a meeting or what, but that was the universal rule. Probably so if you broke your leg doing something stupid in the woods, someone could get help.

Ayup. That's how it was for my brother, my friends, and I, too. Except for the woods part - I lived in Houston and not the Piney Woods part, either. Though, come to think of it - we moved to another neighborhood when I was 10 or so and our house backed up to Buffalo Bayou. Again, we ranged all over that portion of the bayou with nary a check-in. Really, the only rules were don't be alone and be home in time for supper. ETA: In our case, the buddy rule was for stupidity when popping wheelies on our bikes or crossing over the bayou on a tree which had fallen across it.

 

We were much more free range, though my mom didn't call it that.

Edited July 4, 2017 by brehon

[Paige]

She's not an outlier! What she described was par for the course for me and my friends. My daughter turns 12 next week, and dh has already stared down a creepy old man. Often times waiting at/walking to the bus stop we would be grabbed at, called over to cars, flashed. That doesn't even count the creeps who had a 5 min opportunity to get you alone. The only time the police were notified was when I was 18 and a guy grabbed my breasts and tried to push me into the bushes, it was broad daylight in a safe area. They never caught him. Oh, and my friends reporting their rapes. They never caught him. Sensing a theme?

 

The statistics for women and children are awful. Saying 'it hardly ever happens' feels like gaslighting.

 

I agree- it happens all the time and if it didn't happen to you, you were lucky. It happens in safe suburbs, small towns, and areas with very low crime rates. Even my mom, who practically grew up in Mayberry, told me about numerous incidents. 

 

I had many incidents when I was a teen and preteen- But- I don't feel damaged by them. Most incidents were fairly minor, so I may feel differently if something terrible had happened. For me, however, I would not trade the confidence I gained in learning to deal with crap, making mistakes and having to deal with it, and all the times nothing bad happened for a childhood with no sexual harassment.

[MistyMountain]

I did not notice the car seat thing. Rear facing is the safest until they outgrow the limits of the seat. All my 2 year olds were rear facing still. When they outgrew rear facing they were not quite ready for a booster because they could not sit still in it which came at different ages. A 2 year old would not fit in a seatbelt meant for adults nor would it be comfortable for them and they would not sit still and not get out if position. There is debate over whether a car seat or a booster is safer because a car seat just the head whips forward but with little ones they are going to move out of position or move the seatbelt to where it is no longer keeping them in or even unbuckling it which is easier in a seatbelt. In Sweden they rear face as long as possible then move to a booster and their statistics for car accidents and injury and death for children are really good. A booster keeps the lap belt in the lap instead of the stomach where internal organs are located. If a car seat is buckled very loosely with a chest clip in the wrong spot it also may not protect in a bad accident when it is suppose to which happens a lot. Most people either install seats too loose or the straps too loose or put the chest clip in the wrong spot. A car seat does not tighten so a kid can fly out if the straps are not tight or they are in a bulky coat.

Edited July 4, 2017 by MistyMountain

[unsinkable]

That's a really lovely way to characterize my sharing of painful experiences.

 

I'm sorry. :grouphug:

[unsinkable]

I wasn't taking a stance for or against them by posting that. I kept dd in one until it was legal for her not to ride in one. I was born in the 70's and rode in the back of pickup trucks, sleeping in the backseats of hatchback cars on long trips and never remember being in a car seat. I probably was when I was really young or maybe not, maybe my mom held me or something.

 

I just thought the TED talk was well done and it shows a different opinion than most people have now a days.

I was born in the back seat of a Greyhoud bus...rolling down Hwy 41.

[historically accurate]

I wasn't taking a stance for or against them by posting that.  I kept dd in one until it was legal for her not to ride in one.  I was born in the 70's and rode in the back of pickup trucks, sleeping in the backseats of hatchback cars on long trips and never remember being in a car seat.  I probably was when I was really young or maybe not, maybe my mom held me or something.  

 

I just thought the TED talk was well done and it shows a different opinion than most people have now a days.

 

I rode in a laundry basket between my parents in the front seat or my mom held me when I was an infant. I used to nap in the cargo area of our Jeep all the time. 

[wendyroo]

I was born in the back seat of a Greyhoud bus...rolling down Hwy 41.

 

You're lucky.  Buses are much safer than cars.   :thumbup:

[LMD]

I agree- it happens all the time and if it didn't happen to you, you were lucky. It happens in safe suburbs, small towns, and areas with very low crime rates. Even my mom, who practically grew up in Mayberry, told me about numerous incidents.

 

I had many incidents when I was a teen and preteen- But- I don't feel damaged by them. Most incidents were fairly minor, so I may feel differently if something terrible had happened. For me, however, I would not trade the confidence I gained in learning to deal with crap, making mistakes and having to deal with it, and all the times nothing bad happened for a childhood with no sexual harassment.

I don't disagree, but I also don't think that it's extreme to worry about this stuff. My friend with ptsd from her rapes - plural - would make that trade any day. The most dangerous age for assault for girls is 14. They aren't suddenly capable and safe when they become teens. Of course, I'm not advocating locking them in a cellar, but telling us 'no big deal' and 'it'll make them stronger/wiser' is dismissive. I give a lot of thought to how my child can have more independence and build resilience, I also have no qualms at all with assessing some risks as too high. They aren't mutually exclusive.

[Paige]

I don't disagree, but I also don't think that it's extreme to worry about this stuff. My friend with ptsd from her rapes - plural - would make that trade any day. The most dangerous age for assault for girls is 14. They aren't suddenly capable and safe when they become teens. Of course, I'm not advocating locking them in a cellar, but telling us 'no big deal' and 'it'll make them stronger/wiser' is dismissive. I give a lot of thought to how my child can have more independence and build resilience, I also have no qualms at all with assessing some risks as too high. They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

I agree completely that we need to protect our kids. I never had anything too terrible happen to me but the number of my friends who were raped, some more than once, is pretty high. The 1 in 3 stat holds very true for me. I don't count myself among the 1. I think there's a balance- we do our best to minimize the worst, try to give them freedom in ways we think they can handle and that are safe, we hope for the best and know that nothing we do is foolproof. I had a friend raped in a home invasion in a safe neighborhood. She was 14 or 15- I think plenty old enough to be home alone in the middle of the afternoon. So it's about risk management. I had a post maybe a year ago about how DH didn't want my DDs walking the dog because of his fear of them being attacked. I worried that not allowing that freedom would teach them to be afraid and limit their ability to learn confidence. IMO, there's risk and harm both ways and we're all trying to find balance. It's a gamble and what's right for me may not be right for someone else. 

 

Some adversity/shady incidents makes us stronger, but too much can cripple us. It's hard.

[LMD]

My main objection was calling the previous poster's experience an outlier. As if the systematic male violence against women is just us being hysterical. Which I'm sure Tanaqui didn't mean to imply, but there it is.

[rebcoola]

I grew up in a rough town a place posters on this board have said they would never ever live in given options.  

I had plenty of incidences as a teen that made me uncomfortable, groping, flashing, attempted date rape the thing is they were all high school guys.  The bus was terrible, lightly supervised parties, even the school hallways.

I never had a problem when I was just out in town and I would sneak out of my house in the middle of the night and walk a couple of miles to meet up with friends.  

Of course the random stranger thing happens but not nearly as often as date rape and molestation from trusted people.  

[Tanaqui]

As if the systematic male violence against women is just us being hysterical. Which I'm sure Tanaqui didn't mean to imply, but there it is.

 

There is a difference between "this happens" and "every young woman can expect to literally have to run from multiple sex offenders every month of her adolescence". Which is pretty much what was stated. I cannot refuse to live my life, nor not allow my kids to live theirs, because of this.

 

I don't think she or you are being "hysterical". I'm sure that this was honestly your experience. But... it wasn't mine. It wasn't the experience of anybody I know. I know people who were raped and assaulted. Mostly they were harmed by people known to them. That's the way it usually is. Most crime is committed by people known to the victim.

[Frances]

Ummm . . . . I'm sitting here wondering how old you are.

 

Today's version of free range is extremely over-protective compared to when I grew up in the 1970's and early 80's. My friends and I roamed widely from the time we were eight or so. By the time I was twelve we roamed many miles from home on our bikes. It was nothing at all for me to be gone over half a day with my parents having no real idea where I was. And that was very much the norm back then. To say that "it is really now that we are seeing a lot of free range" is wrong.

Absolutely. I grew up in a town of 500 and every kid I knew was allowed to go anywhere in town by bike or on foot, they just had to be home at meal times. My friends and I would sometimes bike 12 miles to the nearby town, swim all afternoon at the public pool, and bike back home. Other times we would take a picnic and bike 4-6 miles to country parks or the Mississippi River. My husband had similar freedom in a town about 10x larger.

[Zinnia]

There is a difference between "this happens" and "every young woman can expect to literally have to run from multiple sex offenders every month of her adolescence". Which is pretty much what was stated. I cannot refuse to live my life, nor not allow my kids to live theirs, because of this.

 

I don't think she or you are being "hysterical". I'm sure that this was honestly your experience. But... it wasn't mine. It wasn't the experience of anybody I know. I know people who were raped and assaulted. Mostly they were harmed by people known to them. That's the way it usually is. Most crime is committed by people known to the victim.

This is one of those things that varies so much, too.

 

I totally believe that this happens to a lot of wmen. But I literally have NEVER had a guy make a rude gesture, catcall, or do anything of the sort. Ever. For. few years, I started thinking maybe I was just unattractive. But I don't know. It just isn't my experience.

 

And while I can believe that women are being catcalls and subjected to awful stuff every day, it seems hard for those women to believe there are others that have never, not one time, had those experiences.

[winterbaby]

There is a difference between "this happens" and "every young woman can expect to literally have to run from multiple sex offenders every month of her adolescence". Which is pretty much what was stated. I cannot refuse to live my life, nor not allow my kids to live theirs, because of this.

 

I don't think she or you are being "hysterical". I'm sure that this was honestly your experience. But... it wasn't mine. It wasn't the experience of anybody I know. I know people who were raped and assaulted. Mostly they were harmed by people known to them. That's the way it usually is. Most crime is committed by people known to the victim.

No, that is not what was stated. I just went back and re-read and I was quite careful about talking about the parameters of my own experience and how it affects my feelings about the statistics.You are interpreting me uncharitably because you perceive judgment and a desire to limit your choices where there is none. And now you are holding up the experiences I shared of having to run away from threatening men as an object of ridicule, similar to your rhetoric in the bathroom thread where you mocked her concerns about "perverts just waiting to jump on your son." You have belittled trauma by using the sarcastic phrase "scarred for life" in the context of saying the kinds of things that happened to me are no big deal. You don't need to do any of this to justify your choices with your kids. You don't have to justify your choices at all. I don't see anyone demanding that you do, and by talking about my personal pain I certainly didn't mean to.

[Tanaqui]

Winterbaby, you're the one who said the world is actually scary. Why would you say that unless you wanted the rest of us to feel it?

 

You're also the one who said that you had to repeatedly "sprint" away from people who wanted to harm you. I assume this is the truth. I don't think it's funny - but I don't think it's normal either, and I'm not going to make my choices around it. If you don't want to influence people with these words, why are you posting these things?

 

You are interpreting me uncharitably because you perceive judgment and a desire to limit your choices where there is none.

 

I'm interpreting your actual words. You can't read my mind. Please don't pretend you can. I'm not the only person who read your comments this way. In general, I find that if everybody misunderstands me, that means that I'm the one at fault. (It happens more often than you might think.)

[winterbaby]

There is evil in the world. I'm allowed to talk about my experience of it. Even if that challenges the narrative that a low chance of things happening means a guarantee that they will not happen. Yes, I used words to communicate my thoughts. There's a difference between that and judgement. I feel very judged by you. You are needling me by throwing trauma I stuck my neck out to share back in my face repeatedly. Please stop.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

There is evil in the world. I'm allowed to talk about my experience of it. Even if that challenges the narrative that a low chance of things happening means a guarantee that they will not happen. Yes, I used words to communicate my thoughts. There's a difference between that and judgement. I feel very judged by you. You are needling me by throwing trauma I stuck my neck out to share back in my face repeatedly. Please stop.

A low chance means a low chance. No one said a word about any guarantees.

 

Some of us have explained that things like abductions in hotels and bathrooms are so out of the norm that they shouldn't be a factor in a reasonable risk assessment.

[LMD]

I really disagree that winterbaby's experiences are abnormal. I can't think of a single woman I know irl who doesn't have a similar story.

 

There is evil in the world. Just because the severest evil is relatively rare doesn't mean that I have to discount it. My preteen daughter is near the most at risk age. I will consider that as part of the overall context of risk assessment.

[Spy Car]

Ummm . . . . I'm sitting here wondering how old you are.

 

Today's version of free range is extremely over-protective compared to when I grew up in the 1970's and early 80's. My friends and I roamed widely from the time we were eight or so. By the time I was twelve we roamed many miles from home on our bikes. It was nothing at all for me to be gone over half a day with my parents having no real idea where I was. And that was very much the norm back then. To say that "it is really now that we are seeing a lot of free range" is wrong.

 

Yeah, I tell my son all sorts of stories about how much freedom we had as kids growing up in the 60's and 70s. We could go anywhere on our bikes as long as we were back not too long after sundown.

 

I would travel all over the place on my bike. Miles and miles. One of my very favorite spots to go to was a remote area behind Chatsworth Park (where several times I witnessed Danny Bonaducci, then on the Partridge Family, smoking pot in a train tunnel). Turned out the place was called Spahn Ranch, and the Manson family was holed up there at the time  :huh:

 

But I lived.

 

Moral of the story? I have no idea.

 

I try to be a sane parent. And not get too crazy either way.

 

Like, I thought perhaps I was overestimating the Lyme/tick risk in Vermont last week, but you all disabused me of that notion. I thought I feared spraying pesticides on my kid. Got over that too.

 

You do your best. I dunno. No pearls of wisdom from me.

 

Bill

Edited July 4, 2017 by Spy Car

[Tanaqui]

There is evil in the world. I'm allowed to talk about my experience of it.

 

Yes, certainly. Nobody here has told you otherwise.

 

There's a difference between that and judgement. I feel very judged by you.

 

Well, I'm not. And you say you're not judging us. So I guess everything's even.

 

I really disagree that winterbaby's experiences are abnormal. I can't think of a single woman I know irl who doesn't have a similar story.

 

Well, now you know me. I can't think of a single woman I know in real life who can say what you and winterbaby claim as normal. I know some that were catcalled a few times, or had to deal with some lewd comments (mostly in school, by classmates) or unwanted touching (again, mostly in school, by classmates), but I really don't know anybody who had this level of harassment, especially not by adults when they were still very young. Well, except for you and winterbaby. I believe it happened to you. I want you to believe it didn't happen to anybody I know.

 

Now, if my kid came to me and said "Listen, when I go out, this happens" or even "This scary thing happened", I'd take that seriously. But if I said to her "You can't go out and do the things other kids your age do, because bad things might happen", what would be the result? She'd grow up, find out that the world wasn't as scary as I told her, and then she'd think that everything I told her was a lie. What else would she think must not be that bad? I don't want to destroy my own credibility here.

 

There is evil in the world. Just because the severest evil is relatively rare doesn't mean that I have to discount it. My preteen daughter is near the most at risk age. I will consider that as part of the overall context of risk assessment.

 

You know, the other day I went to pick up some kids to babysit, and on the way I heard thunder. So when they asked me if we could go to the playground, I said "Nope, sorry, I heard thunder." "But did you check the weather forecast?" "Nope, don't have to. When thunder roars, go indoors." "But did you ask my mom?" "Nope, don't have to. She can tell you yes, but when you're with me, she can't override my no if it's on safety grounds."

 

In the US, 700 people every year get struck by lightning. I am honestly scared of this. No lightning for me! And so, when I hear thunder, I go inside.

 

But I don't stay inside on clear days with no thunder.

 

You are literally more likely to be struck by lightning than to ever know anybody who is abducted by a stranger. But you still go outside. You are more likely - much more likely! - to lose your child in a car crash. But you still drive places. You could organize your life such that you never left the house. People do that. But you wouldn't, and nobody would ask you to.

 

Every year, people die in unnecessary car crashes because they were scared of taking a plane. Planes are safer by a few orders of magnitude, but people don't feel that way, because car crashes are normal and only affect a few people, but plane crashes are rare and affect a few hundred people at a time. The moral here is that humans are really, really, really bad at realistic risk assessment. We consider rare risks to be common and build our lives around them, while ignoring the real things that will actually kill us. Recognizing that we have this flaw, every one of us, is key to overcoming it.

 

Which is why I look at the numbers. I can't trust my gut feeling, because my gut feeling will tell me all sorts of things. Instead, I look at the facts. If something happens to fewer than 500 people a year, in a nation as populous as the US, I consider it basically a non-event. It's just not worth worrying over. I can't live my life around things that happen so rarely, and I can't ask other people to do so either. (Lightning is my one exception. IT REALLY SCARES ME. But even then, I still go out and about, just not during a storm.)

Edited July 4, 2017 by Tanaqui

[LMD]

Do you think I lock her inside and never let her out of my sight? Her level of independence and living life is roughly equivalent to her friends'.

 

I am not sure what you want from me? Sexual violence against children is not rare. 90% are known perpetrators but 10% aren't. So if it's 1 in 4 girls will be sexually assaulted before 18, then 10% by strangers - that's 1 in 40! Pretty different to 1 in 3000 (over a lifetime) for lightning. Now of course that risk factor goes down a lot with things like stable home life and safe environments. But to be so surprised at the level of harassment that many young women experience seems... naive.

 

Eta- abduction isn't my primary concern either fwiw. I know many women who have been raped, groped or flashed. I know none that have been abducted.

I also know plenty of people who have had small bingles in the car, I know none who have been killed.

Edited July 4, 2017 by LMD

[LMD]

Anyway, I certainly don't judge how other families sort this out. I don't live in fear or bubble wrap my children. Sexual violence against women and children is real. I don't have anything else to add to this conversation.

[frogger]

Ok, I will relate something because it may explain why some people feel sexual harressment and outright assault and even rape are everywhere and some can't imagine it being so prevalent. I had quite a number of sexual harressment type things happen to me both in words and at times physical but every single one happened in one three month time span when I worked fast food by a military base. It was not a single guy but rather quite a few. I'm not saying it can't happen elsewhere simply that it is NOT randomly spread throughout our society. If you happen to be born in the wrong family, around the wrong people, make the wrong friends, be part of the wrong subculture, you will see it skyrocket. This is why someone might say every girl they know has this problem and another say they never had this problem and can't imagine how it could be so prevalent. When I worked construction I heard a comment or two but nothing outright nasty or that made me afraid. Just stupid comments that probably seemed harmless to the speaker. Not defending them at all but it was very very different then those three months working fast food as a teen on the bad side of town by a military base.

 

Things that happen to us will change our perspective and yes we may make different decisions because of it and that is ok but we must also try our best to put it in perspective. I know that statistics don't apply the same to the entire population of America. Perhaps cows are more likely to kill you then bears but not in my neighborhood where there are no cows (well unless you count cow moose) but there are plenty of bears. So every parent needs to make their own decision based on their own experience and knowledge.

Edited July 4, 2017 by frogger

[eternalsummer]

My sister experienced (as I did) no sexual harassment of any sort until she moved to NYC, Brooklyn in particular (and not the trendy part of Brooklyn).  She said low level harassment was constant there, until she moved out to a different part of the city.

[slackermom]

I am another one of those outliers: I was abducted by a stranger at 6, forced to participate in a sex act, and then I got away, ran home, and stayed quiet about it for a decade. I also was subject to a ridiculous amount of unwanted sexual attention while living on an army base at age 14-16, and was raped twice in college. So, I probably have a different perspective than the average mom.

 

I would still be fine with my 12 year old walking on their own within our hotel. 

 

We both suffer from severe anxiety, but we do a lot of reality checking, risk assessment, role-playing (if this, then that), etc., and I try hard to strike a healthy balance.  I found The Gift of Fear and the author's other books helpful. I studied economics in college, and love reading about statistics, especially Freakonomics-type stuff.

 

Yesterday I sent my kid on their own to get us some snacks from a convenience store a few blocks away. We live in a relatively safe urban neighborhood, but they had to cross 2 busy streets and train tracks on the way, and to get back in our building they need multiple keys to get through a gate and 2 doors. After they got back yesterday, they asked about getting their own set of keys, so I think that went well!

 

 

[Rachel]

!

I am so sorry you went through all that. Thank you for sharing your perspective regarding your daughter.

 

This is slightly off topic but is there anything specific you are doing to help her avoid/prevent similar things from happening to her.

[Farrar]

Some of the sexual harassment and assault stuff is, for me, difficult to use as a justification because it only intensifies when kids are older teens and young adults. But I cannot imagine not allowing a 16 or 17 yo (much less a legal adult) not to walk alone down the hall in a hotel or walk to the store in your own neighborhood or use the bathroom alone. I mean, there are things teens should do to be safe from all kinds of things in a general sense - stick with your friends at night or in sketchy places, don't put yourself in a situation where you're going to be alone and feel unsafe, go with your own gut. But I also think how you learn to do your gut is by slowly practicing that stuff - like by being outside on your own in your own neighborhood, very close to home, as a kid. And then slowly working your way up to going farther and experiencing the world - that's part of how you build up your "gut instinct" for danger.

 

I think, sadly, no matter what a woman does or how she looks, she'll be catcalled (which is sexual harassment) at least a few times (if not a lot more) as a teen. I have lived a life that has been very lucky in terms of sexual harassment and assault, but I've certainly been harassed several times in various ways and groped a few times, including at random, and including while I was still a minor. But I also don't know what I could have done other than curtail my life severely to avoid having that happen. And I'm not willing to advise a young person to do that.