s/o people justifying breaking laws (illegal fireworks)

[marbel]

There's a thread about fireworks and in it several people have said that fireworks are illegal where they live, but people still buy them and set them off.  

 

For years I've wondered about people who buy illegal fireworks. When I lived in Oregon, they were illegal but people would drive to Washington to buy them. What do they tell their kids about following the law?     Seems a bad idea to blatantly break laws in front of children.  I've never known anyone personally who bought illegal fireworks, and if I did I'm not sure how I'd ask.  So in the relative anonymity here, I'll ask.  How does one justify it? 

 

I don't want to debate fireworks laws.  I'm interested in how people justify breaking a law because they want to set off fireworks.  

[MommyLiberty5013]

I've never bought them illegally. But isn't it the same as drinking under age, speeding, or parking a car over a sidewalk (illegal in many places)? Why do people do it?

 

They don't technically care about the law. Or they think it's dumb to begin with. So they decide it's worth the risk.

[StephanieZ]

We tell them that some laws are silly. 

 

We're not particularly devoted to following all laws just because they are on the books. There are numerous laws I would not obey because I morally or otherwise object to them. There are others that are just silly that I may not obey. I need to either agree with the rule . . . or be afraid of the consequences of breaking it . . . to be committed to following it. 

 

The government sets penalties according to the severity of the infraction. I consider consequences when I choose to disregard a law. 

 

Do you speed? Do you pay sales/use tax on all the stuff you buy off the internet? Do you pay (or accept payment) under the table ever? Ever give your spouse an extra vicodin that you had leftover from surgery when he has a killer headache? Do any DIY home improvements that technically required a permit? There are numerous laws on the books that we don't always follow. 

 

Personally, I am more of a risk/benefit person. I am OK with speeding up to 5-8 mph over (if I judge it safe) because I'm not too worried about a single low-grade speeding ticket given my decade+ clean driving record. However, I wouldn't speed 20+ mph over (even if I thought it was safe, which would be unlikely) due to the elevated legal risk of a potential reckless driving ticket. I'm OK with paying someone under the table for 500-1000/yr, but when I had an employee for several thousand a year, I jumped through all the hoops to make it legal and pay all taxes . . . again . . . I don't expect anyone to throw me in jail or excessively fine me for a <$1000/yr employee, but I fear the elevated risks of a more significant employee not being "legal".

 

Same goes with fireworks.

 

At the end of the day, I'm just not much of a "rules" person. I follow rules if they make sense to me and/or I've bought into an agreement/relationship/whatever that requires me to follow them. Or because I'm afraid of consequences. I don't follow laws or rules just because somebody in charge makes them. 

 

 

 

 

[snowbeltmom]

Well,  I was going to respond, but StephanieZ expressed my thoughts better than I would have.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know what I'd tell them.  This is one law I agree with.  I'm not against breaking laws I don't agree with or find stupid, but I do know that there is a risk in that and I'm not exactly sure what I'd tell my kids. 

 

Statewide they legalized them where I am (for a specific short period of time during the year).  Then in our county they made them illegal again because they got 100,000 calls from people.  So far some are still lightening them off (there always were a few), but I'll take that any day over what it was like when they legalized them. 

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by SparklyUnicorn

[MercyA]

I agree with you, marbel...but I have certainly done some of things Stephanie mentioned.  :(

 

As a Christian, I do believe I personally am called to obey the law, unless doing so causes me to sin or violate my conscience (Romans 13; 1 Peter 2; Acts 5). It's hypocritical of me to criticize those who shoot off illegal fireworks when I speed. [ETA: Not criticizing or judging anyone else here, just looking at myself.]

 

Ugh, I need to make some changes.  :o

Edited July 1, 2017 by MercyA

[Cindy in FL.]

I would tell my kids that the law applies to everyone. If you don't like a law, then work to get it changed. For us, as Christians, the only time this wouldn't apply would be in a case of the government requiring you to do something or not do something in direct opposition to God's law.

 

Does his mean we never go over the speed limit or transgress the law in other ways? No, but I can't think of an instance that it was a deliberate flouting of a law we disagreed with, and there is an acceptance of the consequence without arguing a right to break the law.

[Cindy in FL.]

I don't see anything wrong with criticizing someone else's breaking of the law as long as you are just as willing to own up to your own.

 

I agree with you, marbel...but certainly have done some of things Stephanie mentioned. :(

 

As a Christian, I do believe I personally am called to obey the law, unless doing so causes me to sin or violate my conscience (Romans 13; 1 Peter 2; Acts 5). It's hypocritical of me to criticize those who shoot off illegal fireworks when I speed.

 

Ugh, I need to make some changes. :o

[creekland]

We tell them that some laws are silly. 

 

We're not particularly devoted to following all laws just because they are on the books. There are numerous laws I would not obey because I morally or otherwise object to them. There are others that are just silly that I may not obey.

 

...

 

At the end of the day, I'm just not much of a "rules" person. I follow rules if they make sense to me and/or I've bought into an agreement/relationship/whatever that requires me to follow them. ... I don't follow laws or rules just because somebody in charge makes them. 

 

This totally sums up my beliefs/thoughts and what we teach our kids.  Good laws make sense and really don't need to be laws (obeying stop signs, not stealing, not killing, etc).  Some laws are just someone's personal beliefs that they want to impose upon all of us.  They have no right to do so IMO.

 

But we don't buy fireworks ourselves, considering it a waste of money.  We just enjoy what others set off.

[marbel]

We tell them that some laws are silly. 

 

<snip>

 

Do you speed? Do you pay sales/use tax on all the stuff you buy off the internet? Do you pay (or accept payment) under the table ever? Ever give your spouse an extra vicodin that you had leftover from surgery when he has a killer headache? Do any DIY home improvements that technically required a permit? There are numerous laws on the books that we don't always follow. 

 

<snip>

 

You must be pretty confident that your kids' idea of laws that are too silly to be followed will line up with yours.  I can't imagine saying that to my kids as a justification for intentionally breaking a law.   What laws might they decide are too silly to follow?

 

So, I can say yes to two things on your list - speeding and not paying sales tax.  But they are the result of negligence/not paying attention, not a decision to flout the law because it is too stupid to follow. (Or, in the case of speeding, if traffic conditions make it unsafe to sit right at the limit.  Even the law has a tolerance for going slightly over.)  It's still wrong, of course, and when I find myself speeding with my kids in the car, I point it out and apologize (and slow down). 

 

Anyway, thanks for answering my question.  

[bullseye]

What do they mean by "fireworks are illegal"?

 

Where we live, consumer fireworks are fine, although you must be 18 to buy and there are ordinances for when they can be shot off. Display fireworks cannot be sold in-state, but there's no law against possessing and using them. Hence folks driving to the next state. 

 

The police even issued a statement in the paper last year to clarify. They do not care if you have them. You just can't buy them here. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

What do they mean by "fireworks are illegal"?

 

Where we live, consumer fireworks are fine, although you must be 18 to buy and there are ordinances for when they can be shot off. Display fireworks cannot be sold in-state, but there's no law against possessing and using them. Hence folks driving to the next state. 

 

The police even issued a statement in the paper last year to clarify. They do not care if you have them. You just can't buy them here. 

 

In some places they are illegal. 

[Mandamom]

What do they mean by "fireworks are illegal"?

 

Where we live, consumer fireworks are fine, although you must be 18 to buy and there are ordinances for when they can be shot off. Display fireworks cannot be sold in-state, but there's no law against possessing and using them. Hence folks driving to the next state. 

 

The police even issued a statement in the paper last year to clarify. They do not care if you have them. You just can't buy them here. 

 

We live in a somewhat rural county in Maryland and there are tons of backyard fireworks. I'm actualy surprised I haven't heard many this summer so far. They usually start by now. 

 

 

 

 

Laws in Maryland: 

 

The use of fireworks is illegal in Maryland, unless the fireworks are part of a public display for which the State Fire Marshal has granted a permit. 

You cannot have a private display of fireworks at your home. All fireworks displays, regardless of location, require the proper permits and insurance

 

(In Baltimore City and Montgomery and Prince George's counties, consumer use of all fireworks and ground-based sparklers is prohibited. Ground-based sparklers are prohibited in Ocean City, Maryland, and Howard and Harford counties.

 

Any hand-held or ground-based device that creates an explosion, detonation, loud noise, that launches a projectile or moves along the ground under its own power is illegal in Baltimore County and elsewhere.

Examples of prohibited items include:

• Firecrackers, Cherry Bombs, Black Cats, M-80s, Crackling Balls and Smoke Bombs;
• Roman Candles and bottle rockets (whistling and/or with report);
• Sky Rockets, helicopter-type rockets, Spinning Wheels, Moving Tanks or other vehicles;
• Any firework shot from a mortar tube.

j

 

there's more but that's the gist. 

[regentrude]

Honestly, is there anybody who claims to follow ALL laws? There are plenty of utterly ridiculous laws on the books.

http://www.truthin7minutes.com/weird-laws/

 

Does God tell you to obey rules like "Women may not wear red dresses on the street after 7pm" or "Women may not wear high heels inside the city limits"???

Edited July 1, 2017 by regentrude

[creekland]

Well... PA appreciates all the tax dollars from nearby states.  They are legal to buy here - as long as one is NOT a state resident.  They're illegal to use here, so businesses can't sell them to residents - only to people from out of state.  Fireworks places are always super busy this time of year, but if I were to go in to buy anything I couldn't due to not having an out of state driver's license.  We get the tax dollars though.  I guess that's a plus.  Those who set them off generally have someone else from out of state buy them - or they have to go to SC to get them (so I've heard).

 

Not all that long ago this policy was challenged in court - and declared fine and dandy.  It still kinda boggles my mind TBH.

 

 

[Wheres Toto]

I think a lot of times the kids wouldn't even realize it's illegal.  If no one told them or made a big deal out of it, how would they know?

 

I wouldn't violate the fireworks law.  But I doubt I would set off fireworks even if they were legal.  I think they are dangerous when shot off by people who have been drinking and don't really know what they are doing.  I personally know children who have been injured from fireworks.

 

That said, my kids were in the car when I got a doozy of a ticket driving in Virginia.  I wasn't going that fast but the speed limit had just gone down (didn't see a sign) and I was going with the flow of traffic but I had the out of state plates.   :glare:   I basically told the kids that it was my fault, I should have been more careful and followed the speed limit.   I never complain or blame the officer if I"m stopped for speeding or anything else (it doesn't happen that often).  I want my kids to trust the police.

 

We do discuss whether certain rules/laws are appropriate to follow, but my kids are young enough that I don't think they can fully get the grey areas.  Ds has Aspergers and he is a very rigid, strict rule follower.  You use a bad word and he'll call you on it.  If the children's menu says "10 years old" he won't order from it unless we ask the waiter if it's okay.  

[Crimson Wife]

There's a thread about fireworks and in it several people have said that fireworks are illegal where they live, but people still buy them and set them off.  

 

For years I've wondered about people who buy illegal fireworks. When I lived in Oregon, they were illegal but people would drive to Washington to buy them. What do they tell their kids about following the law?     Seems a bad idea to blatantly break laws in front of children.  I've never known anyone personally who bought illegal fireworks, and if I did I'm not sure how I'd ask.  So in the relative anonymity here, I'll ask.  How does one justify it? 

 

I don't want to debate fireworks laws.  I'm interested in how people justify breaking a law because they want to set off fireworks.  

 

I grew up in MA, where fireworks are illegal, but close to the NH border. My parents always refused to buy fireworks for us until one summer when we were invited to a BBQ hosted by some friends of my parents. The hosts were realtors but the husband's brother was a cop. The cop brought along fireworks that his department had seized, and set them off as party entertainment.

 

After that, my parents agreed to purchase fireworks over the border. After all, if the POLICE were blatantly ignoring the "nanny state" laws against fireworks, why should any of the rest of us follow them?

 

Now here in CA where there is a very real forest fire danger, I 100% support laws banning fireworks. You set off fireworks out here, and it could wind up killing other people and destroying property. But in New England there is enough rain such that there is not the same kind of fire hazard.

[Laura Corin]

There's a thread about fireworks and in it several people have said that fireworks are illegal where they live, but people still buy them and set them off.  

 

For years I've wondered about people who buy illegal fireworks. When I lived in Oregon, they were illegal but people would drive to Washington to buy them. What do they tell their kids about following the law?     Seems a bad idea to blatantly break laws in front of children.  I've never known anyone personally who bought illegal fireworks, and if I did I'm not sure how I'd ask.  So in the relative anonymity here, I'll ask.  How does one justify it? 

 

I don't want to debate fireworks laws.  I'm interested in how people justify breaking a law because they want to set off fireworks.  

 

People are strangely selective.  Many people who wouldn't otherwise break the law seem to see speed limits as somehow optional.  

 

ETA: I have broken laws in the past, but I don't now and this is what I would teach my children.  If laws are stupid, work to change them.  Otherwise, I don't want other people feeling justified in picking and choosing, so wouldn't want to give that example.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Wheres Toto]

Well... PA appreciates all the tax dollars from nearby states.  They are legal to buy here - as long as one is NOT a state resident.  They're illegal to use here, so businesses can't sell them to residents - only to people from out of state.  Fireworks places are always super busy this time of year, but if I were to go in to buy anything I couldn't due to not having an out of state driver's license.  We get the tax dollars though.  I guess that's a plus.  Those who set them off generally have someone else from out of state buy them - or they have to go to SC to get them (so I've heard).

 

Not all that long ago this policy was challenged in court - and declared fine and dandy.  It still kinda boggles my mind TBH.

 

They are illegal to possess or purchase in New Jersey.  People who go across to PA to buy them will often find themselves stopped as soon as they cross the bridge into NJ.   NJ is getting revenue from fines, while PA is getting revenue from sales, all for the same fireworks.   :001_rolleyes:

[Soror]

Well, fireworks are legal here, all year as far as I know. However, although dh LOVES fireworks and 4th of July we usually just watch them. Sometimes we'll buy a few small ones to set off for just the 4th. Personally, I think fireworks are utterly stupid, I don't find them particularly enjoyable and I feel like you might as well just burn your money. 

 

On other laws, I agree with Stefanie. 99% of people are breaking laws, probably daily. If you don't want to speed set the cruise control to make sure you don't. People buy online and don't pay taxes and a lot of other little things. I don't think all laws are equal. I also don't think I'm obliged to follow laws that are against my faith and moral code. 

[Arcadia]

My friend's dad bought small ones and set them off at the top (roof deck) of a multi storey car park. Very little fire hazard risk so they are willing to pay the penalty.

 

My parents had seen houses burned down by fireworks as kids and adults. So if we want to see firecrackers we go Chinatown during Lunar New Year and for fireworks we can see Great America's fireworks from our home.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Arcadia

[Crimson Wife]

Except in places prone to forest fires, I place fireworks bans in the same category as raw milk sale bans. The government should require warning labels be posted but allow adults to make their own decisions. If purchasers ignore the warnings and get hurt, caveat emptor.

[regentrude]

Except in places prone to forest fires, I place fireworks bans in the same category as raw milk sale bans. The government should require warning labels be posted but allow adults to make their own decisions. If purchasers ignore the warnings and get hurt, caveat emptor.

 

The problem is if other people or their property get hurt. Raw milk affects only those who consume it, not innocent bystanders. Big difference.

Adults are not free to make decisions that affect the well being of other people and their property.

Edited July 1, 2017 by regentrude

[StephanieZ]

You must be pretty confident that your kids' idea of laws that are too silly to be followed will line up with yours.  I can't imagine saying that to my kids as a justification for intentionally breaking a law.   What laws might they decide are too silly to follow?

 

So, I can say yes to two things on your list - speeding and not paying sales tax.  But they are the result of negligence/not paying attention, not a decision to flout the law because it is too stupid to follow. (Or, in the case of speeding, if traffic conditions make it unsafe to sit right at the limit.  Even the law has a tolerance for going slightly over.)  It's still wrong, of course, and when I find myself speeding with my kids in the car, I point it out and apologize (and slow down). 

 

Anyway, thanks for answering my question.  

 

Would you want your kids to follow every law in every state in our nation? There are some incredibly bad, and even evil, laws on the books. 

 

And, yes, I have plenty of confidence in my kids' judgment. Helping them develop their critical thinking skills is pretty much the core goal of my homeschool / family. Supervising them / guiding them as long as they are too immature to make good decisions is part of my parenting job.

 

There are numerous critically important areas of life where no laws or even rules apply. They have to make judgements to make good choices on who to have sex with, who to be alone with, where to go at night, what to tell a friend who is about to make a dangerous decision, etc, etc. 

 

So, in essence, I don't rely on rules or laws to keep my kids safe or to ensure they make good decisions. I rely on their judgment and my supervision.

 

Rules and laws are just pieces of information in my book. It's important to use information to make decisions.

Edited July 1, 2017 by StephanieZ

[Tanaqui]

Except in places prone to forest fires, I place fireworks bans in the same category as raw milk sale bans. The government should require warning labels be posted but allow adults to make their own decisions. If purchasers ignore the warnings and get hurt, caveat emptor.

 

If you're drinking raw milk in your own home, there's no chance that my roof will catch on fire. My dog won't keep on barking and barking. My neighbor who is a veteran won't have flashbacks from your choice to drink raw milk. I won't get a migraine. I won't have to worry that your child is going to decide to have some fun by taking that raw milk out and sharing it with my kids - and if he does, at least I know my kid might get sick but she probably won't lose a hand.

[marbel]

LOL, I did not think to add a caveat about archaic laws with not even a pretense of enforcement.   

 

Here's an example:  When I lived in Oregon (which was 10 years ago, so things may have changed), there were specific types of fireworks that were illegal.  They weren't sold in the state, so people had to go to Washington to buy them (unless they had an illegal source in-state, I guess).   It was quite well-known and in theory was an enforced law.  But people still acquired them and set them off.   We were often worried that something would fly into our field and start a grass fire.  I can imagine a young child not knowing but hard to imagine kids above age... 10 or so? not sure about that... wouldn't be aware of it as there were no fireworks to be bought and periodically there were things in the news about it.   

 

I know there are some nanny-state laws that are silly, such as raw milk bans.  But I still don't get the picking and choosing about obeying current laws, particularly those which have a good basis with regard to safety, property damage, etc.

 

[Crimson Wife]

The problem is if other people or their property get hurt. Raw milk affects only those who consume it, not innocent bystanders. Big difference.

Adults are not free to make decisions that affect the well being of other people and their property.

 

Which is why I stated that in places where there is forest fire danger, I support bans. I support CA's ban, but not MA's because of the difference in fire hazard.

 

[mschickie]

The problem is if other people or their property get hurt. Raw milk affects only those who consume it, not innocent bystanders. Big difference.

Adults are not free to make decisions that affect the well being of other people and their property.

 

 

This is it exactly.  I have had family members die because someone else shot off fireworks and one landed on their house.  They did not know it and the thing smoldered and started a fire.  They tried to make it out of the house but only made it part way down the stairs.

 

 

It does not matter if there are forests, grasslands or what.  Fireworks can cause fires and those can have deadly results.  In my opinion leave it to the professionals. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by mschickie

[creekland]

They are illegal to possess or purchase in New Jersey.  People who go across to PA to buy them will often find themselves stopped as soon as they cross the bridge into NJ.   NJ is getting revenue from fines, while PA is getting revenue from sales, all for the same fireworks.   :001_rolleyes:

 

Win-win for both states? (financially speaking)

 

I read your post to middle son who's sitting next to me and he asked if they could send the confiscated fireworks back to PA so we can keep making money off of them...  :lol:  It could help both state budgets.  Ours needs something like 2 billion dollars to finance their latest budget (could be off on the number, but it's a bit).  Every drop in the bucket counts!

[Crimson Wife]

If you're drinking raw milk in your own home, there's no chance that my roof will catch on fire. My dog won't keep on barking and barking. My neighbor who is a veteran won't have flashbacks from your choice to drink raw milk. I won't get a migraine. I won't have to worry that your child is going to decide to have some fun by taking that raw milk out and sharing it with my kids - and if he does, at least I know my kid might get sick but she probably won't lose a hand.

 

Your dog is your problem, not anyone else's.

 

Your migraine is also your problem, not anyone else's.

 

You should teach your child not to mess with things that are for adults. Fireworks, guns, butcher knives, matches, etc.

 

Veterans with PTSD deserve more effective treatment than our country is giving them. That's a whole different thread.

 

 

[regentrude]

Which is why I stated that in places where there is forest fire danger, I support bans. I support CA's ban, but not MA's because of the difference in fire hazard.

 

I was not just thinking about forest fires, but house fires as well. 

[Crimson Wife]

This is it exactly.  I have had family members die because someone else shot off fireworks and one landed on their house.  They did not know it and the thing smoldered and started a fire.  They tried to make it out of the house but only made it part way down the stairs.

 

 

It does not matter if there are forests, grasslands or what.  Fireworks can cause fires and those can have deadly results.  In my opinion leave it to the professionals. 

 

I'm sorry for your loss, but this seems like a fire code issue rather than a "let's ban fireworks" issue. After all, fires can start by all sorts of legal things like cigarettes.

 

I would support a law mandating installation of sprinkler systems in all newly constructed homes and prior to the sale of existing homes.

[Guest]

The only time illegal fireworks have bothered me was when neighbors in SoCal started setting them off in their backyard when 8 MONTHS previous, one of the largest fires came right up to our backyards.  Freaking idiots. I was about ready to lose my mind.

Otherwise, I'm with StephanieZ.

 

[Mergath]

Which is why I stated that in places where there is forest fire danger, I support bans. I support CA's ban, but not MA's because of the difference in fire hazard.

 

 

I didn't realize the roofs in MA were magically fireproof. Or, like with dogs and migraines, if you light someone else's roof on fire, is that their problem, too?

 

[Mergath]

I'm sorry for your loss, but this seems like a fire code issue rather than a "let's ban fireworks" issue. After all, fires can start by all sorts of legal things like cigarettes.

 

I would support a law mandating installation of sprinkler systems in all newly constructed homes and prior to the sale of existing homes.

 

If someone else lights your house on fire, how is that a fire code issue?

 

[Wheres Toto]

Which is why I stated that in places where there is forest fire danger, I support bans. I support CA's ban, but not MA's because of the difference in fire hazard.

 

 

What about if they hit a house?  Unless it's actively raining or just stopped, it could easily cause a fire hitting a building.  It's not THAT wet in New England.

[Word Nerd]

I doubt they give it as much thought as you have here. I ignored our former town's prohibition against even transporting fireworks within the city limits because I didn't think it made sense and wouldn't be enforced anyway. If I had been caught I would have paid the fine and assume they would have been confiscated. We didn't set them off at home but at a relative's house in a different town. Fireworks were legal in all the neighboring towns, and I'm still not sure why that town's ordinance was so strict.

[wintermom]

I think a large part of the problem dealing with laws and explaining them to our children is that many laws seem like arbitrary rules people have put in place that don't really deal with the actual problem.

 

Fireworks being legal or not isn't necessarily the problem. Using appropriate size, at respectful times of fireworks, in a safe manner and place is important.

 

Speed limits are arbitrary, and can vary vastly from country to country (e.g., US vs Germany). Driving safely and skillfully in the conditions is more important than speed. Drive 60 mph in the left lane on an autobahn and you may get crushed or cause a major collision because that is far too slow for traffic in that lane.

[snowbeltmom]

Win-win for both states? (financially speaking)

 

I read your post to middle son who's sitting next to me and he asked if they could send the confiscated fireworks back to PA so we can keep making money off of them...  :lol:  It could help both state budgets.  Ours needs something like 2 billion dollars to finance their latest budget (could be off on the number, but it's a bit).  Every drop in the bucket counts!

 

Based on another comment in this thread, the police may have plans to use the confiscated fireworks at their family gatherings.

 

[Laura Corin]

 

 Drive 60 mph in the left lane on an autobahn and you may get crushed or cause a major collision because that is far too slow for traffic in that lane.

 

But why would you be driving at 60mph in an overtaking lane?  Don't you move into the driving lane and allow others to pass, breaking the speed limit if they like?  That's certainly courtesy and it's the law in the UK (when reading below, remember that the left-hand lane in the UK is the driving lane and the right hand lanes are the overtaking lanes):

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273

[Caroline]

He probably had a permit. In Maryland they are illegal unless you have a permit. Our neighbor was the fire chief. He got a permit to set off fireworks.

 

I grew up in MA, where fireworks are illegal, but close to the NH border. My parents always refused to buy fireworks for us until one summer when we were invited to a BBQ hosted by some friends of my parents. The hosts were realtors but the husband's brother was a cop. The cop brought along fireworks that his department had seized, and set them off as party entertainment.

 

After that, my parents agreed to purchase fireworks over the border. After all, if the POLICE were blatantly ignoring the "nanny state" laws against fireworks, why should any of the rest of us follow them?

 

Now here in CA where there is a very real forest fire danger, I 100% support laws banning fireworks. You set off fireworks out here, and it could wind up killing other people and destroying property. But in New England there is enough rain such that there is not the same kind of fire hazard.

[marbel]

I think a large part of the problem dealing with laws and explaining them to our children is that many laws seem like arbitrary rules people have put in place that don't really deal with the actual problem.

 

Fireworks being legal or not isn't necessarily the problem. Using appropriate size, at respectful times of fireworks, in a safe manner and place is important.

 

Speed limits are arbitrary, and can vary vastly from country to country (e.g., US vs Germany). Driving safely and skillfully in the conditions is more important than speed. Drive 60 mph in the left lane on an autobahn and you may get crushed or cause a major collision because that is far too slow for traffic in that lane.

 

Sure.  I would not follow California's speed laws (max 55 mph on all highways at the time I lived there) in Wyoming (75 when I drove through there 10  years ago). For that matter, there is a road near here that has a speed limit of 25, but going under 35 is dangerous because of all the people speeding.  

 

That's where critical thinking skills come in.   

 

Deciding not to obey a fireworks law because one thinks it's stupid (and wants to shoot off fireworks) isn't the same thing.  (In my opinion, obviously.)

[maize]

Your dog is your problem, not anyone else's.

 

Your migraine is also your problem, not anyone else's.

 

You should teach your child not to mess with things that are for adults. Fireworks, guns, butcher knives, matches, etc.

 

Veterans with PTSD deserve more effective treatment than our country is giving them. That's a whole different thread.

Is this like how if I or my child is poisoned by drinking water from leaching lead pipes no one else should worry about it because that is my issue?

[Wheres Toto]

But why would you be driving at 60mph in an overtaking lane?  Don't you move into the driving lane and allow others to pass, breaking the speed limit if they like?  That's certainly courtesy and it's the law in the UK (when reading below, remember that the left-hand lane in the UK is the driving lane and the right hand lanes are the overtaking lanes):

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273

 

In some states the law is to stay right except to pass.  I'm not sure if it's the case everywhere or not, but it's a fairly frequently ignored law.

[Frances]

Well... PA appreciates all the tax dollars from nearby states. They are legal to buy here - as long as one is NOT a state resident. They're illegal to use here, so businesses can't sell them to residents - only to people from out of state. Fireworks places are always super busy this time of year, but if I were to go in to buy anything I couldn't due to not having an out of state driver's license. We get the tax dollars though. I guess that's a plus. Those who set them off generally have someone else from out of state buy them - or they have to go to SC to get them (so I've heard).

 

Not all that long ago this policy was challenged in court - and declared fine and dandy. It still kinda boggles my mind TBH.

That has got to be one of the weirdest laws I've ever heard of. In OR, they are only allowed to sell the ones that are legal to use here. But we don't have sales tax. People go to WA to purchase the illegal ones. Edited July 1, 2017 by Frances

[Laura Corin]

Thinking more about the arbitrary nature of laws.  The whole point, surely, is that they are arbitrary. They are put in place by an arbiter (the judiciary or elected officials in most democracies) in order to organise life in a particular area.  And the people can put pressure on the officials to change them if they are not fit for purpose.  The fact that laws are different in different jurisdictions is inevitable and to be applauded, as that reflects democracy at work.

[Word Nerd]

Sure. I would not follow California's speed laws (max 55 mph on all highways at the time I lived there) in Wyoming (75 when I drove through there 10 years ago). For that matter, there is a road near here that has a speed limit of 25, but going under 35 is dangerous because of all the people speeding.

 

That's where critical thinking skills come in.

 

Deciding not to obey a fireworks law because one thinks it's stupid (and wants to shoot off fireworks) isn't the same thing. (In my opinion, obviously.)

Others have excuses. I have my reasons why. ;)

 

Everyone thinks their own decisions are sound and reasonable for the most part, including those whose reasons in your view don't justify their behavior.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Word Nerd

[MercyA]

Honestly, is there anybody who claims to follow ALL laws? There are plenty of utterly ridiculous laws on the books.

http://www.truthin7minutes.com/weird-laws/

 

Does God tell you to obey rules like "Women may not wear red dresses on the street after 7pm" or "Women may not wear high heels inside the city limits"???

 

Yes, if I know about them and if they don't cause me to sin or violate my conscience. I would hope that if I found out about a goofy law like that in my town, I'd work to change it. 

[maize]

Thinking more about the arbitrary nature of laws. The whole point, surely, is that they are arbitrary. They are put in place by an arbiter (the judiciary or elected officials in most democracies) in order to organise life in a particular area. And the people can put pressure on the officials to change them if they are not fit for purpose. The fact that laws are different in different jurisdictions is inevitable and to be applauded, as that reflects democracy at work.

Well, arbitrary is usually taken to mean a decision made randomly or without reason. The usage is not closely linked with arbiter in the decision maker sense so I don't find your argument very compelling. Basically, we hope that the arbiters of our laws make their decisions in a reasoned and not arbitrary way.

 

The words, while presumably from the same root, have diverged in meaning.

[snowbeltmom]

He probably had a permit. In Maryland they are illegal unless you have a permit. Our neighbor was the fire chief. He got a permit to set off fireworks.

 

 

How does someone get a permit?