If you think weddings cost a lot! Funerals are just as bad.

[moonsong]

Are you in the US?

Yes very small town.

[teachermom2834]

When my mom died (unexpectedly) my dad and her had no plans or resources set aside. We were able to do things as cheap as possible. We had a funeral at my dad's church and did a receiving of friends one hour before. The church did the food post funeral. I bought two flower arrangements to make sure there was something and then we used anything anyone sent at the church. It wasn't alot but it was enough. We did a direct cremation and bypassed the funeral home. My dad picked up the ashes to take to the funeral. The day after the funeral we had the ashes placed in a columbarium at my parish.

 

The biggest thing for us was finding a plot or someplace to place her remains. That was difficult not dealing with a funeral home and would have been very expensive. My dad and I and siblings are Catholic but my mom was not. Catholic practice requires for the body (ashes) to be kept in one place and buried or interred in a proper place, so scattering or keeping them on the mantle was out as an option. My parish pastor allowed us to place her in the columbarium at our church even though she was not Catholic and my dad was not a member. That was such a relief! If was $2000 for a niche for her and when the time comes, my dad. If that had not been possible I think my dad would have just buried the ashes somewhere without permission :(

 

It was such a difficult time and it was so odd to be discussing the nitty gritty of "what the heck do we do with her remains?"

 

We did it all for less than $4000 probably but that was without a funeral home or a plot or headstone and with the church taking care of some things. Such a hard time.

[maize]

If your state has a local funeral consumers alliance they can look like a good resource for information about affordable funeral arrangements and relevant laws.

 

https://funerals.org/

[HS Mom in NC]

This is timely information, thank you.  I'm going to have to address this with the in-laws soon.

My SIL (husband's sister) is terminally ill with cancer. She is expected to die within the next month or so. She'll leave behind her husband, a daughter (12,) and a son (16.) A few months ago her husband's insurance ended its contract with Cancer Treatment Centers of America who has been her medical provider for the last 5 years.  No one told them until 2 months after the fact, so she's had $15,000 in treatment between the contract ending and being notified about it. Now they're trying to have it forgiven as a hardship case, but her husband has a good paying job and will start new insurance in July.  American health insurance is a nightmare. Adding an expensive funeral to it is going to be hard on all of us who will contribute to picking up the bill.  She worked for a mega church until a month ago, so I have no idea how many people will be attending.

The last funeral I attended (grandmother of husband and SIL) everyone went to a local restaurant that has a banquet room for the meal.  It was a good option. Granny was in her late 90s, which meant her surviving kids were in their 70s and didn't have the energy to put together a meal.  The grandkids were mostly out of state and only some were able to attend.

Before that it was my grandmother's funeral and we had a light meal at the church that we paid for and some church members set up, served and cleaned up.  Most of it was from Costco.

Before that it was grandmother's spinster sister: no husband, no kids, no religious affiliation.  We had her cheaply cremated and the relatives gathered at grandmother's house, told their favorite stories about her, read aloud favorite stories sent by relatives who couldn't attend, and everyone had a light finger foods, dessert, and drinks.   Several people said it was the best memorial they ever attended.  Then a couple of them drove her ashes up north and spread them at her favorite place.  When we drive up to camp and pass the turn off on the highway, we all say hi to Aunt Nadine.

[HS Mom in NC]

My dad's cousin owns the house in the movie Goonies. Someone spread ashes in her garden at night without permission.

[Katy]

I looked this up for an older thread.  No state in the USA legally requires embalming except in cases of advanced decomposition and traveling between states (think body fluid leaks & explosions advanced).

 

You can request an "Orthodox burial" to avoid the embalming nonsense.  And funeral homes are also required by law to accept outside caskets - so pine boxes, willow caskets for green burial, or even simple shrouds are allowed.   You're even allowed to have a private cemetery on private land, but there are legal requirements for that, and I think they are state/location specific.

[fairfarmhand]

I looked this up for an older thread. No state in the USA legally requires embalming except in cases of advanced decomposition and traveling between states (think body fluid leaks & explosions advanced).

 

You can request an "Orthodox burial" to avoid the embalming nonsense. And funeral homes are also required by law to accept outside caskets - so pine boxes, willow caskets for green burial, or even simple shrouds are allowed. You're even allowed to have a private cemetery on private land, but there are legal requirements for that, and I think they are state/location specific.

You beat me to this post. I looked all this up after a family funeral ran $14,000.

 

These are things that you need to l ow and plan for ahead of time. That's why I checked into it. Also you can look up "green burials." There are places that can walk family members through body preparation too so there's little need for funeral directors. It's strange to me that people have been living and dying on this planet for centuries and within just the last 150 years we now think we need an army of professionals to deal with death.

 

When you start researching the natural process of decomposition it's really a fascinating process.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah it doesn't pay to be a human.  Being born is expensive....hooking up with another human is expensive...dying is expensive.  Really life is like one big fat expense.  :laugh:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

That's how it works at every church we've ever belonged to. The grieving family does not pay for the meal. The church members bring food and the church itself provides the paper products.

Actually I think this varies widely. Where we came from every funeral had food provided by the family.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I bookmarked this excellent article from NPR on avoiding getting ripped off by funeral directors:

 

http://www.npr.org/2017/02/07/504020003/a-funeral-may-cost-you-thousands-less-just-by-crossing-the-street

 

Also. Costco last I checked sells urns and caskets.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Another nice option for urns is to approach a potter who is local to you.  It may not be the cheapest option but probably will be less expensice than the ones from a funeral home, and more unique as well.

[shawthorne44]

Oh yes, I agree! I've read lately about the recommendation that a person should have a written letter of intent about that sort of thing - the type of arrangements, music to be played, etc. it's very sad that the funeral industry seems to prey on people in their most vulnerable states.

 

Next to my Will, I have a Wants page.  It says things that i don't care what happens to my body but I will try to haunt anyone that buries me in nice wood.  But I want a wake with good alcohol.  The idea is that nothing in it is binding, but these are my general ideas.   

[TammyS]

  It made me wonder what the funeral home does if someone agrees to all that stuff the way SIL did, but then has no money. 

 

 

 

My mother did that with her father.  The funeral home got themselves named executor of the estate and threatened to evict her and sell the house if she didn't pay up immediately.  They did have his car (which she drove) repossessed to make clear that they weren't kidding.

[Katy]

Actually I think this varies widely. Where we came from every funeral had food provided by the family.

 

Yes, in the South it seemed like everyone brought food over after a funeral.  In the Midwest families typically hire a caterer for a luncheon after the burial. I have only been to one funeral in New England and one in California, so I don't know what is typical there.

[Scarlett]

I attended a visitation in a funeral home a few weeks back. My cousin, aged 74. Open casket. My mom has surgery the day of the funeral so we couldn't go but there was a full meal at a gathering place, provided by friends.

 

That was the first funeral I've heard about among people I know in years. Most have been cremated with a nice meal afterwards.

 

A man I know died a few years back and he and his wife who was not even social,security age yet, but not in good health....they had nothing. Some friends went to the funeral home and obtained a deal to have him cremated for $700.

 

So I know it doesn't have to be expensive.....grieving people are being taken advance of. Sickening.

[Anne in CA]

I looked this up for an older thread.  No state in the USA legally requires embalming except in cases of advanced decomposition and traveling between states (think body fluid leaks & explosions advanced).

 

You can request an "Orthodox burial" to avoid the embalming nonsense.  And funeral homes are also required by law to accept outside caskets - so pine boxes, willow caskets for green burial, or even simple shrouds are allowed.   You're even allowed to have a private cemetery on private land, but there are legal requirements for that, and I think they are state/location specific.

That sounds oddly comforting to me... to be buried in a simple shroud. I don't know why, but the thought of being embalmed and but in a box sounds... invasive to me. I wouldn't want all that done to my body after I die. I also am pretty claustrophobic, so the idea of a box has never sounded good to me. Also, I don't want to be burned up. That sounds scary to me. 

[FaithManor]

Yeah it doesn't pay to be a human.  Being born is expensive....hooking up with another human is expensive...dying is expensive.  Really life is like one big fat expense.  :laugh:

SO DARN TRUE!

[FaithManor]

Middle ds, the nearly 19 year old, has already decided to become a tree. No joke. You get cremated, and there is an urn that is a set of tree roots and contains your ashes. Someone in your family buries it, and voila, you become a tree. As a conservationist, ecologist, he is thrilled at this notion.

 

That makes cremation extra cheap. You buy the cremation cardboard box which costs very little, and arrive at the crematorium with the tree urn, ashes loaded, and go have a simple memorial service outside, plant the tree. 

 

www.urnabios.com

 

$145.00 for the maple.

[Guest]

A deacon in the Eastern Orthodox Church and his wife have written a book called A Christian Ending to Our Lives.  I copy/pasted below both the link and an introduction by Father John Breck (Ph.D.).  I did the "bolding" in the quote.  

 

The Barnas have done a LOT to help people understand what IS and is NOT required by law and how one can truly take back from the funeral industry the final care for those we love, and by so doing, reduce the financial and emotional distress for the survivors.  Note:  our parish has found a local funeral director who lets us use his site to prepare the body, and who does not foist upon us things we do not want or do not allow.  It has been a very good relationship and has done a lot to reduce stress in our parish.  Some people want more of his services, some less, and he just *works* with us.

 

My friend's mother died in Michigan, and he went back to care for her body and bring it back to Seattle for burial.  The funeral director there told him all kinds of lies about what was required by law.  My friend knew better but needed some ballast, so he called Deacon Mark (Barna) who has informed himself on the law in every state and the deacon got on the phone with the funeral director and ... well, let's just say, things got straightened out.  

 

Frankly, the push by the "greens" is doing a LOT to get things cleaned up in the funeral industry, and the Orthodox Jews in particular have done a lot to keep it from getting completely out of hand in the first place.  Between the greens and the Orthodox Jews (and should be Orthodox Christians, too), things have already changed for the better in a lot of states.  Some states have a lot of laws on the books to protect the funeral industry, but with some vocal objections by the people, these can be changed.  

 

Anyway, for those who are interested, the link and description are below.  

 

 

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Ending-Mark-Elizabeth-Barna/dp/0971413967

 

A handbook for burial in the ancient Christian tradition. While aimed at Orthodox Christians, this book would be a very helpful guide to anyone who is interested in preparing for a funeral within the context of community, without the use of corporate funeral homes, and using green and sustainable methods. From the foreward: "How should Christian people prepare for death, their own and that of loved ones? No question can be more important than this, since death is the final reality of our earthly life. Yet particularly in the United States, we tend to avoid the question as much as we can. We consider death to be brutal and tragic, whatever its circumstances and causes. It marks an end to our ambitions, while it underscores the ephemeral nature of our existence. Therefore we treat it like a "last enemy" from which there is no escape, no salvation. Death appears as a specter, a menacing evil, that evokes a reaction of dread. Written in a genial, conversational style, this book offers the Christian reader a solid foundation in both the theology and the psychology of death: its place within God's creative and saving work, and the personal impact it makes on those facing death and those who grieve for them. It also clarifies a great many misconceptions held by most people concerning professional funeral practices, making clear that a truly "Christian ending" to our life can mean beauty and utter simplicity both in the rituals that surround it and in the burial itself. Many readers will be surprised to learn that it is not at all necessary, legally or practically, to use the services of a funeral home. There is indeed "another way," one more in keeping with the Gospel imperative to honor the physical body as a temple of the Holy Spirit. This work includes a section on the actual preparation of the body of the deceased, together with prescribed readings of psalms and prayers, all of which can be accomplished with or without the participation of clergy. Finally, an extensive bibliography is followed by a list of items needed for preparation, as well as various post-mortem forms the reader will find indispensable." -Fr. John Breck

[greenbeanmama]

I looked this up for an older thread.  No state in the USA legally requires embalming except in cases of advanced decomposition and traveling between states (think body fluid leaks & explosions advanced).

 

You can request an "Orthodox burial" to avoid the embalming nonsense.  And funeral homes are also required by law to accept outside caskets - so pine boxes, willow caskets for green burial, or even simple shrouds are allowed.   You're even allowed to have a private cemetery on private land, but there are legal requirements for that, and I think they are state/location specific.

 

For advanced decomposition, once they determine cause of death they really, really urge you to go with cremation.  (It's not as though an open casket is really an option at that point.)

 

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Another nice option for urns is to approach a potter who is local to you.  It may not be the cheapest option but probably will be less expensice than the ones from a funeral home, and more unique as well.

The problem with this is I think urns have features that are regulated I believe. I got that impression when my mom died.

[saraha]

I have a couple of questions.

If someone dies at home, who do you call?  Say they are old and it is not an accident.

If the person goes to or dies at the hospital, does someone there help you make arrangements?

If you choose cremation and you are an organ donor, can you still do both?

How do you avoid a funeral home at all?

 

See, I can totally see people relying on a funeral home, because I bet most people don't know the answers to these questions. I don't know the answers and honestly thought you had to deal with a funeral home.

 

 

eta: I just tried googling and all I could find that wasn't related to wills was something from aarp that basically said call a funeral home

Edited May 30, 2017 by saraha

[Guest]

The problem with this is I think urns have features that are regulated I believe. I got that impression when my mom died.

Nope.

 

The last cremation container I helped select was a cigar humidor. Another person chose a papier maché box.

[FaithManor]

I have a couple of questions.

If someone dies at home, who do you call?  Say they are old and it is not an accident.

If the person goes to or dies at the hospital, does someone there help you make arrangements?

If you choose cremation and you are an organ donor, can you still do both?

How do you avoid a funeral home at all?

 

See, I can totally see people relying on a funeral home, because I bet most people don't know the answers to these questions. I don't know the answers and honestly thought you had to deal with a funeral home.

 

 

eta: I just tried googling and all I could find that wasn't related to wills was something from aarp that basically said call a funeral home

IF the person is on hospice, then hospice nurses are allowed to call time of death for the death certificate and because it was pre established that the person was going to die of an illness or injury, there is no need for legal involvement to determine the cause of death which is also needed for the death certificate.

 

If it does not happen on hospice, you need to call 911. They will send a sheriff, sheriff's deputy, state police officer, plus an ambulance as in many states you aren't allowed to transport a body. The law enforcement person will take a statement - very straight forward and nothing to be afraid of if there is no obvious sign of foul play and you do not indicate there was violence or wrong doing attached - and paramedics are allowed to declare time of death and call that into the local ER, the death certificate then being signed by either the ER doc, the county medical examiner, or the director of EMS services for the county who is the doctor under whom the medics practice. The ambulance will transport the body, and in many counties the estate is not charge for this because it is a tax provided service. The County Morgue - often located in a nearby hospital - will be responsible for the release of the body to the funeral home or whomever is authorized to transport the body. Next of kin tells the hospital whom they want to provide this service.

 

If you are unsure of how to go about making arrangements once the body has been picked up, it is very helpful to call the hospital and ask to speak to the hospital chaplain. Hospital chaplains are generally pretty awesome people with a LOT of experience and knowledge. They will usually walk you through this process.

 

If you don't want a chaplain, it is possible that a social worker on staff can help.

 

Organ donation depends on the condition of the body, what the person dies of, etc. My father figure wanted to be an organ donor, but he died of metasticized cancer so that was out. Since organs need to be retrieved at the time of death, if there is a lapse the organs are no good. So it would not be possible. But if the organs are good, then the person can donate, and then their body can be cremated. Much just depends on each individual situation, location at death, condition of the person at time of death, etc. 

 

There are some states in which it is simply impossible to avoid the funeral home all together. Michigan is pretty much one of them unless you are Amish. They look the other way on the Amish thing though the sheriff does have a tendency to remind the community annually that they can't bury their dead where the water table is high, near water sources, within a certain distance of residences and businesses, on land not their own, etc.

 

You can limit how much you pay to the funeral home by cremation, not holding a funeral in a funeral home, or doing a direct burial. If you live in a state that will allow a direct burial (less than 48 hrs from death to interment), you might be able to have a religious exemption such as Orthodoxy and Judaism, so that you can prepare the body for whatever ceremony you choose. Also in some states there are no state laws barring certain things but there are local laws that do. You have to check those. In one county it might actually be okay for you to transport your dead loved one, but if you have to drive them across county or township lines, you might be in violation of local ordinances. So if you want to do something like that, you have to find out about these things in advance.

 

It should be noted that in Michigan it is illegal to spread ashes on beaches or any inlets leading to the lakes. So don't go to grandpa's favorite state park on Lake Huron and scatter his ashes anywhere near the waterways at all. Also in this state there are certain communicable diseases that require embalming and NO handling by an unlicensed person. You need to check that out too. 

 

Cemeteries can have their own rules too so while there is no state law requiring a casket, a cemetery can choose to make you have a certain type of container.

 

Here is the excerpt on private property burial. Most bodies are buried in established cemeteries, but burial on private property is sometimes possible in Michigan. Michigan state law allows for the creation of private burial grounds of less than an acre outside city or village limits. (Michigan Compiled Laws § 128.111.) The property must be surveyed and recorded with the county clerk; it will then be exempt from taxation. (See Michigan Compiled Laws § 128.112.)

Before conducting a home burial or establishing a family cemetery, you will need zoning approval and a permit from the local health department.

According to the sheriff here, he has never in all his years heard of a single township granting permission for private burial grounds except to the Amish. Zoning boards can be a pain.

 

The Federal Clean Water Act dictates that scattering of ashes at sea must be done at a minimum three nautical miles from land. Inland water burial requires permits, and at this time due to conservation efforts on the Great Lakes not many of those are granted.

 

You may scatter by air if you can figure out how to do so as long as you don't toss the container too which would be considered a falling hazard.

 

This following excerpt is one reason that Michigan is one of the hardest states in which to avoid the funeral director.

Michigan—requires that death certificates be “certified†by a funeral director —though the statute doesn’t define what that means. Additionally, the wills and probate section of the law requires all body dispositions be conducted by a licensed funeral director.

 

My father figure died of cancer on hospice. The hospice nurse certified his death. The cause was NOT ambiguous. Yet despite having the legal, medical professional sign off on time of death and cause, the death certificate had to be certified by a licensed funeral director.

 

For this reason, I think that hospital chaplains plus a secular civil servant like a county clerk should be able to sign off on these things so the funeral industry does not have the family over a barrel.

[Guest]

...snip

How do you avoid a funeral home at all?

 

See, I can totally see people relying on a funeral home, because I bet most people don't know the answers to these questions. I don't know the answers and honestly thought you had to deal with a funeral home.

 

 

eta: I just tried googling and all I could find that wasn't related to wills was something from aarp that basically said call a funeral home

 

I'm sort of referring to the post I wrote upthread in a little bit of my answer here.  

 

I'm not saying there is no value-add in funeral directors.  As I mentioned upthread, our parish has established a relationship with a wonderful funeral director ... he's gotten to know us so well that at the last funeral (for the mother of a parishioner) both my dh and I spent as much time talking to HIM as to any of the parishioners--he's become "one of us".  In addition, when a friend died suddenly out of state, this funeral director gave me free consultation, and he even ran the obituary on his website, even though we used none of his services.  I say all this to point out that I am not against funeral directors and I do understand the value they provide.  

 

When I die, my survivor will call the priest, and he will call this funeral director.  We will pay the funeral director (his business) to have a place to prepare my body for burial ($100) ...but not to do the preparation.  Parishioners will do that.  We will pay him to "store" me for a couple of days (~$100) and probably to deliver me from where I died to his place, then to the church and then to the graveyard.  ~$500.   We will pay him to do the paperwork (I *always* pay for something that is not going to be part of any kind of routine or that is likely to be done badly by me).  This gets all the proper filings done and provides my survivors with 5 death certificates.   $700.    (Note that when my friend's dad died, his family prepared the body at home, kept the body on ice for 3 days, and delivered the body to each of the required locations in a family vehicle.  That saved even more money but even more importantly, it knit the family together in caring for their father even to the last.)

 

The casket will be a simple wood one made by a friend  (if he is still around) or by a monk at a monastery (how they support themselves).  Free or $250.  No autopsy, no embalming, simple burial in plots we already own.  $1000 each, already paid.  A liner (not a vault--edited to correct) is required by some cemeteries to keep the ground from collapsing as the earth settles with my body, but it can be five-sided (not a box, sealed, etc. edited to correct) which saves money and puts the casket right on the earth.  After all this is done, I'm out ~$3000, $1000 of which is already spent, so the "hit" is ~$2000.    When our parish gets a little more storage room, we are going to store at least one casket that can be part of the parish's gift to the family, which reduces the expense and emotional strain on the family at the time.

 

The parish provides the prayers service, the all-nightvigil, the funeral, the choir, the following Agape Meal (always fish) and the flowers.  

 

The funeral director plays a large role in helping people know what to do next, how to move through the day, and doing the things that he is equipped to do that no one else really can.  I respect him for that and am happy to pay for it.  The thing that I am NOT happy with is financial bullying at a time of the deepest emotional distress.  

 

The book I mentioned upthread describes all of this.  

[Reefgazer]

 

I have a couple of questions.

If someone dies at home, who do you call?  Say they are old and it is not an accident.

The funeral home that will be having the funeral. 

 

If the person goes to or dies at the hospital, does someone there help you make arrangements?

No, you call the funeral home and they come and transport the body.  And the hospital wants in *gone* ASAP; like within an hour or two.

 

If you choose cremation and you are an organ donor, can you still do both?

 

Yes.  The transplant team harvests the organs in advance of the cremation.  They need to be notified right away.

 

How do you avoid a funeral home at all?

 

Dunno.  But I bet it's possible with advance preparation.

 

See, I can totally see people relying on a funeral home, because I bet most people don't know the answers to these questions. I don't know the answers and honestly thought you had to deal with a funeral home.

 

 

eta: I just tried googling and all I could find that wasn't related to wills was something from aarp that basically said call a funeral home

[FaithManor]

Again though, depending on the state and county's cause of death, depends on if you can call the funeral home directly for transport or if the body must be handled by medical professionals and taken to the hospital first.

 

Decomposing bodies cannot be transported by the funeral home until after the coroner determines cause of death. Certain communicable diseases can exempt a body from being transported by the funeral home. An unknown cause of death even with a fresh body means the county medical examiner must be involved. In some cases the M.E. has his/her own transportation vehicle for this and will do the transport once the proper authorities notify the M.E. office.

 

Do not just assume you can call the funeral home to do it. This is why if you do not know the ins and outs legally you should at the very least call the price department non emergency number. Dispatch can then forward your call to someone in the know. Of course for those on hospice, it is all arranged in advance. That was part of the intake process for father figure. The nurse sent the proper documentation to the county in advance that he was choosing to die at home of natural causes - i.e. cancer, a non communicable disease. This was a huge relief to us. When we thought he was going down hill fast we called hospice, they sent the on call nurse ASAP, but he passed before she even arrived. She came on the scene and took care of everything. I cannot say enough good things about how hospice helped us through the whole thing.

 

Most of us assume we or our loved ones will die of some simple, non concerning thing and that our body can be transported directly to a funeral home for storage. Unfortunately, this is not ways the case so you need to know what to do in the event of something different.

[Lady Florida.]

Next month will be 9 years since my mother died and even in 2008 it cost over $5000. Fortunately she had bought a plot back in the 1970s, but the other costs came to a little over $5K. She had a small life insurance policy and the funeral home worked with the life insurance company so I didn't have to pay out of pocket. I didn't realize it at the time, but this is a common practice. My brother lived hand to mouth (still doesn't have money but is a little better off than he was then) so he wasn't able to help with any costs. One of my aunts, mom's youngest sister, paid to open and close the grave. My mom went without a headstone for a year and a half until after we sold her house and were able to use some of the sale money for a nice headstone. She wasn't religious so there was no minister/priest or church to pay. Family and friends spoke at the funeral service and at the grave site. Everything was nice but we economized and still the costs were outrageous.

 

As for food, I found out just what my homeschool group was really like. One woman came to the funeral home and brought food for us family members (we couldn't leave to eat because we had to be there to greet people). That was nice of her, but she also wouldn't accept any money for the food she brought us. She also stayed at my house the day of the service so someone would be here as people started arriving (the family was late getting back from the grave site). Nearly everyone (or maybe everyone I don't know) in the group either made a covered dish or contributed money to others who were making food. Another woman made freezer meals for us to have in the coming days as I dealt with all the paperwork plus didn't want to cook because I was grieving. That group of people was amazing. They often pulled together for members like that - I wasn't special and deserving of extra help. The members of the hs group are the ones who were special. I loved that group. They were so generous, always helped members, and truly cared about each other.

[Guest]

snip...

 

She also stayed at my house the day of the service so someone would be here as people started arriving (the family was late getting back from the grave site). 

 

This is a *very* good thing for someone to do.  Same as at weddings.  Sadly, these times are big burglary opportunities; everyone on the planet can know that the occupants will be away from the house.  

 

When someone says, "I just can't face the funeral but I want to help"--give them this job.  

[Guest]

 

I have a couple of questions.

 

...snip...

 

If the person goes to or dies at the hospital, does someone there help you make arrangements?

No, you call the funeral home and they come and transport the body.  And the hospital wants in *gone* ASAP; like within an hour or two.

 

...snip...

 

How do you avoid a funeral home at all?

 

Dunno.  But I bet it's possible with advance preparation.

....snip...

FWIW, the hospital wants the body out of the ROOM very quickly, but if you press, they will not move the body right away if there are some rites you wish to have observed.  

 

It is possible to avoid the funeral home but you have to be prepared, you have to know what you are getting into, and you have to know what the law requires re: paperwork, especially if any of the circumstances are odd.  That said, I plan to have the funeral director do all the required paperwork.  The quicker it gets done the better for everyone concerned, and the easier it is to move on with the post-funeral problems, like closing bank accounts, etc.  It seems to me that the chances are that if I am the survivor, I am not going to be in any frame of mind to do research on what paperwork needs to be completed and then do all the work accurately.  That just adds to my headache and to the problem stack that is already bigger than I want to deal with.  Our funeral director does this for $700, complete with 5 death certificates.  

 

And frankly, being "prepared" almost certainly means a group of you.  I don't know how one person does all of this on their own.  Perhaps this could become a ministry in a community center or church you / yours are part of.  It is part of our community life at our parish.  

 

ETA:  I do not know all the state laws, or how they have been presented, but the book I (constantly) refer to says that there are no federal laws requiring the services of a funeral director, embalming, caskets, coffins, vaults or liners.  State laws differ, but even these are often misrepresented as "laws" when they are "requirements" of the particular funeral home.

 

[Lori D.]

The memorial service for our dear friend (DF) ran us about $100 -- $25 for 2 Costco flower bouquets, and $75 for the church fee (which they had to charge for janitorial service and to pay the people to come in and set up/run music). DF's church provided programs (for free) -- I wrote up and did the layout and sent them a pdf file. And the church offered to provide refreshments (for free) as a support to family/friends for after the service, but it was an evening (after 7pm) service, and so few people (about 20) were attending (all of DF's family except his out-of-state brother were deceased, and most of DF's friends were back in his home state), so we declined refreshments.

 

If the church would have charged much more than that, due to so few people attending, we just would have held a brief informal memorial in our home.

 

We did not think to do a newspaper obituary.

 

The big cost was paid by DF's brother, which was to have the body cremated, then have the cremated remains shipped back to DF's home state (about $1800-$1900 for cremation and shipping -- special packaging was required for shipping), and then the cost to have the grave of the parents' opened to bury the urn with DF's cremated remains (about $5000). I know that the brother and his wife also had a special Mass service held back in the home state; I don't know if there was a charge for that -- they had a funeral wreath at that service, which also was at the graveside burial.

 

DF had a $10,000 life insurance policy with DF's brother named as the beneficiary, so I'm guessing that covered the deposition and burial costs, with some money left over.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Lori D.

[Bluegoat]

The problem with this is I think urns have features that are regulated I believe. I got that impression when my mom died.

 

A potter can make an urn that meets pretty much any standards.  A lady I know did a whole series after her mom died.

[FaithManor]

FWIW, the hospital wants the body out of the ROOM very quickly, but if you press, they will not move the body right away if there are some rites you wish to have observed.

 

It is possible to avoid the funeral home but you have to be prepared, you have to know what you are getting into, and you have to know what the law requires re: paperwork, especially if any of the circumstances are odd. That said, I plan to have the funeral director do all the required paperwork. The quicker it gets done the better for everyone concerned, and the easier it is to move on with the post-funeral problems, like closing bank accounts, etc. It seems to me that the chances are that if I am the survivor, I am not going to be in any frame of mind to do research on what paperwork needs to be completed and then do all the work accurately. That just adds to my headache and to the problem stack that is already bigger than I want to deal with. Our funeral director does this for $700, complete with 5 death certificates.

 

And frankly, being "prepared" almost certainly means a group of you. I don't know how one person does all of this on their own. Perhaps this could become a ministry in a community center or church you / yours are part of. It is part of our community life at our parish.

 

ETA: I do not know all the state laws, or how they have been presented, but the book I (constantly) refer to says that there are no federal laws requiring the services of a funeral director, embalming, caskets, coffins, vaults or liners. State laws differ, but even these are often misrepresented as "laws" when they are "requirements" of the particular funeral home.

I would love it if each county had a secular chaplain, someone with a degree in world religious studies so acquainted with death theology,and who is also an expert in state and local law. This person could then help families navigate the death/burial/cremation process. Most religious groups do not have an expert, at least not in our area. Mom's pastor had never studied it for certain. With so many families not having religious affiliation, the problem is even more compounded because they have no central resource for assistance.

 

It would be such a blessing to families.

[Guest]

I would love it if each county had a secular chaplain, someone with a degree in world religious studies so acquainted with death theology,and who is also an expert in state and local law. This person could then help families navigate the death/burial/cremation process. Most religious groups do not have an expert, at least not in our area. Mom's pastor had never studied it for certain. With so many families not having religious affiliation, the problem is even more compounded because they have no central resource for assistance.

 

It would be such a blessing to families.

 

Not to go circular on you, but frankly, this COULD BE the role of the funeral director.  SO AGGRAVATING!  

 

This has been the case for us with the guy we found to work with, and it was with the funeral director I found for my Dad, who I found by phone interview by knowing what to ask and being enough removed from the time of death and proximity to be able to keep my head.  I even called Our Guy when my friend died in another state and he guided me through what we would need, and didn't charge a dime and was SO KIND TO ME.  Neither have ever pressured me or anyone I knew into spending big or equating spending with love and respect.  Yeah, they'll sell you the expensive casket, if that is what you want, but they have it on the same showroom floor as the plain box, and they'll sell you that one too, or let you BYOC(coffin) if that is what you want to do.  

 

The thing is, you have to find a truly family-owned, family-run business, one who knows they will not survive unless they get repeat business, and who are under no Corporate Franchise Requirements from the Big Three Owners of The Funeral Industry in America.  

[foxbridgeacademy]

A lot of states do not allow you to bury someone "in the back yard" because it can be a serious public health issue...ground water, drinking supply, etc.

 

In Michigan you can do direct burial if you pay to keep the body refrigerated and have it in the ground within 48 hours. Mom was not willing to do it because she felt that he needed to be viewed, and that the out of state relatives needed to time to get there to view him. Sigh....she came to regret that decision as the whole viewing thing just exhausted her.

 

But you simply cannot just bury someone on your farm. That is a no no in nearly every township though it is not expressly prohibited by state law. Lots of local ordinances to check out when planning these things which is why most people end up dealing with the local funeral director because he or she knows everything.

 

As for the potluck aspect of the meal, that can't even be done in the county east of here. The commissioners passed a public health ordinance that any gathering of 25 or more people requires all non desert foods to be prepared in a commercial kitchen with a licensed preparer overseeing it because someone decided to have and all day graduation party and left potato salad or something outside at 90 degree temps all day and some guests were stupid enough to eat it! No exemptions for churches.

 

I think it would best if there was only a funeral dinner for the immediate family. All 325 or so people who attended father future's funeral came to eat because mom got it in her head that it was rude not to have a dinner for everyone. Another totally exhausting element of the day for those of us who were already barely on our feet after his hospitalizations, and caring for him at the end. (Hospice was wonderful, but two hours per day of help was all that was provided.)

 

These things really should be talked out, ironed out well in advance. Talk about it. Put it down on paper. Give your kids copies of the paper so everyone has seen it, no surprises, all on the same page.

My mom has looked into being buried down the road from her house near the Creek she spends most her free time at.  So far she's not gotten a definitive answer so someday it will probably be up to me to make it happen (she was told by local "powers" that it's a possibility).  But this is only a chance and probably because it's one of those places that you can pretty much do whatever you want and no one bothers you about it.  

 

As for Church potlucks... I grew up Pentecostal and there seemed to be a potluck/pitch-in every week, I don't know what my Mimi or Aunts would have done with all that extra time if they weren't cooking for a whole church full of people.  Nice thing though when my dad's wife and my Mimi died the church and congregation took care of the meal (including cookies, coffee at the viewing) and no charge to the family.   Usually though only family and close friends come to the funeral/dinner. In my Mimi's case, just counting her children/spouses (and their children etc..) her siblings/spouses and all their offspring.... that's well over 100.

[Guest]

A potter can make an urn that meets pretty much any standards.  A lady I know did a whole series after her mom died.

 

 

OH--it did occur to me that there ARE standards...size.  So they are large enough to hold the ashes of the deceased (taller people need a bigger container...) and so they will fit in the columbarium niche or the cremation garden plots.  But it's not anything more than that. 

 

If you need to know the sizes, you can go online and look for Cremation Container/Urn and find out all you need to know.

You don't have to buy something purpose-made though.

[RootAnn]

Both because this issue has suddenly become very personal & because of curiosity, I looked up the price of obits in the Big City Paper. I thought it sounded reasonable: $5-$6/line (daily vs. Sunday paper) per day you run it plus a flat $20 fee (mandatory?) for uploading to the digital archives. But, now that I think about it, that might easily run up to a large number if you write a lot or run it multiple days.

 

My dad's funeral was around $15,000, I think. We'll see how much my brother's ends up costing.  :sad:

[Katy]

<snip>

 

There are some states in which it is simply impossible to avoid the funeral home all together. Michigan is pretty much one of them unless you are Amish. They look the other way on the Amish thing though the sheriff does have a tendency to remind the community annually that they can't bury their dead where the water table is high, near water sources, within a certain distance of residences and businesses, on land not their own, etc.

 

<snip>

 

Here is the excerpt on private property burial. Most bodies are buried in established cemeteries, but burial on private property is sometimes possible in Michigan. Michigan state law allows for the creation of private burial grounds of less than an acre outside city or village limits. (Michigan Compiled Laws § 128.111.) The property must be surveyed and recorded with the county clerk; it will then be exempt from taxation. (See Michigan Compiled Laws § 128.112.)

Before conducting a home burial or establishing a family cemetery, you will need zoning approval and a permit from the local health department.

According to the sheriff here, he has never in all his years heard of a single township granting permission for private burial grounds except to the Amish. Zoning boards can be a pain.

 

<snip>

 

 

I just wanted to comment on this - it's not that they look the other way because of the Amish.  It's that they know if they try to force the Amish to change and do something their way they will lose.  The Amish aren't afraid to sue when their rights and way of life are impinged - clear to the supreme court if necessary.  Their lawsuit established the right to home school, after all.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder

 

[shawthorne44]

I have a couple of questions.

If someone dies at home, who do you call?  Say they are old and it is not an accident.

If the person goes to or dies at the hospital, does someone there help you make arrangements?

If you choose cremation and you are an organ donor, can you still do both?

How do you avoid a funeral home at all?

 

See, I can totally see people relying on a funeral home, because I bet most people don't know the answers to these questions. I don't know the answers and honestly thought you had to deal with a funeral home.

 

 

eta: I just tried googling and all I could find that wasn't related to wills was something from aarp that basically said call a funeral home

 

 

It varies wildly by state.   

 

When my grandfather in MN died in bed, grandmother called 911 and they came out and said, "He's dead.   We don't do dead".   Then she called his doctor who issued a death certificate without ever actually seeing him.  

 

I think I read that in Texas they really loosened up the laws.,   You can dig your own hole on your own land and do your own thing.   Digging isn't for me, but the people interviewed said that doing so was good for their grieving process.  I am tearing up.  

[FaithManor]

I just wanted to comment on this - it's not that they look the other way because of the Amish. It's that they know if they try to force the Amish to change and do something their way they will lose. The Amish aren't afraid to sue when their rights and way of life are impinged - clear to the supreme court if necessary. Their lawsuit established the right to home school, after all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder

 

Actually that lawsuit won them the right to violate home school statutes which include students in Michigan must be educated to certain levels in specific subjects until ages well past what the Amish are willing to do. An 8th grade education, dropping out at 13 or 14 is a total violation of education law here. They got themselves exempted from laws homeschooling have to follow.

 

And they do not homeschool. That is actually not normal within the Amish Community. The set up schools that go to the sixth grade here. Some of the girls make it through 7th and 8th, but the boys locally do not study past 6th grade. Homeschooling is actually rather rare among the Amish.

 

If you do not live near and contend with them, you have no idea what a public danger they are. Here they go out without lights on their black buggies after dark, in the fog, in the rain. We have several buggy, car accidents every year, nearly every single one of them the fault of the Amish buggy driver, and always fatal to them and often to those in the other vehicle because hitting horses is like hitting brick walls. They commit serious health code infractions with no penalty.

 

Our local law enforcement is exasperated with the Amish and feel their hands are tied. And measles....every single year....measles and the mothers think nothing of bringing their children to town to shop while in the throws of measles.

 

At any rate, the way they handle and bury their dead has been a problem in the past due to not caring about their neighbor's water supplies much less their own. The worst was the shallow grave in a very low spot and after torrential rain and minor flooding, well...you get the idea. Not good.

[Lady Florida.]

<nip>If you do not live near and contend with them, you have no idea what a public danger they are. <snip>They commit serious health code infractions with no penalty.

 

<snip>Our local law enforcement is exasperated with the Amish and feel their hands are tied. 

 

And don't even get me started on their puppy mills.

[Lady Florida.]

I have a couple of questions.

If someone dies at home, who do you call?  Say they are old and it is not an accident.

 

 

It varies wildly by state.   

 

When my grandfather in MN died in bed, grandmother called 911 and they came out and said, "He's dead.   We don't do dead".   Then she called his doctor who issued a death certificate without ever actually seeing him.  

 

 

 

I tried to find the Florida statute but I must not be searching properly. Anyway, it was 30 years ago so things might have changed.

 

My grandmother lived with my mother in the final years of her life. It was highly possible she would die there, considering her condition. Normally when someone dies at home there's an autopsy and possibly investigation. There's some sort of paperwork for an exception for the terminally ill or elderly (this is the part I couldn't find in a search). I don't know if my grandmother died at home or in the ambulance, but she was alive when my mom called 911. I had a feeling though that she didn't make it. For one, they wouldn't allow my mom to ride in the ambulance with her. And I was driving us to the hospital behind the ambulance. They weren't rushing and didn't have the sirens on. My suspicions turned out to be right but I didn't tell my mom then. 

 

At the hospital after she was declared dead, an officer wanted to get info from my distraught mother who just lost her mother. I obviously knew the name of the directive at the time because I took over and let him know she had it though it wasn't with her.

[saraha]

Thank you all so much for this thread!  My husband and I had the start of what will be a series of conversations last night because of this thread and all of the things I had never really thought about.  This forum is such a valuable resource.

[Kalmia]

In Maine you can register part of your property with the registry of deeds as a family burial ground and bury whichever family members (or friends) you want there. You can also get handmade pine caskets (even ones that begin "life" as bookcases) and it is legal to have home funerals here. So if you want to die cheap, die in Maine!

 

http://bangordailynews.com/2009/04/11/news/woodworker-crafts-furniture-to-die-for/

[DoraBora]

Because he was a veteran, my dad was eligible for VA Burial.  He made arrangements in advance to have his ashes interred at the nearest National Cemetery.  We had to wait three weeks for a military honors ceremony there, but we had already held a service in his memory at my parent's church.  

 

When my uncle died, my cousins held a simple memorial service at the family church.  Six days later, they quietly interred his body at the same National Cemetery without further public ceremony.

 

Anyway, Dad's burial, the marker, and perpetual care of his grave site were all covered by his VA benefits.  I think my mom paid about $700 for cremation.   Her spousal benefit will cover her burial alongside my dad one day.

 

The VA also offers allowances to defray some costs of being buried at a private cemetery, though the eligibility requirements are stricter.

[Reefgazer]

That will be good to know for future reference; they wanted us to call the funeral director ASAP - they told us within a few hours.  But I supposed if I had been "Oops!  Sorry, I don't have a funeral home in mind", they would have had no choice to wait.

 

Your posts have been helpful; in this thread, thanks!

FWIW, the hospital wants the body out of the ROOM very quickly, but if you press, they will not move the body right away if there are some rites you wish to have observed.  

 

It is possible to avoid the funeral home but you have to be prepared, you have to know what you are getting into, and you have to know what the law requires re: paperwork, especially if any of the circumstances are odd.  That said, I plan to have the funeral director do all the required paperwork.  The quicker it gets done the better for everyone concerned, and the easier it is to move on with the post-funeral problems, like closing bank accounts, etc.  It seems to me that the chances are that if I am the survivor, I am not going to be in any frame of mind to do research on what paperwork needs to be completed and then do all the work accurately.  That just adds to my headache and to the problem stack that is already bigger than I want to deal with.  Our funeral director does this for $700, complete with 5 death certificates.  

 

And frankly, being "prepared" almost certainly means a group of you.  I don't know how one person does all of this on their own.  Perhaps this could become a ministry in a community center or church you / yours are part of.  It is part of our community life at our parish.  

 

ETA:  I do not know all the state laws, or how they have been presented, but the book I (constantly) refer to says that there are no federal laws requiring the services of a funeral director, embalming, caskets, coffins, vaults or liners.  State laws differ, but even these are often misrepresented as "laws" when they are "requirements" of the particular funeral home.

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by reefgazer

[brookspr]

We were lucky that my cousin, who is a funeral director, took care of everything when my mom died last summer. We got a friends and family discount on the funeral part, but it was still $10K when you included the plot, casket, etc...It was worth every penny, though, because he took care of every single thing we needed. Limo ride, tips for the driver and priest, flowers, music, pictures, reservations at the restaurant, prayer cards, you name it, he did it. We got to choose what we wanted, but it only took about an hour and everything was planned. It was a great relief to me and my dad that we didn't have to worry about anything. Every time I called my cousin he said, "did it already" or "taken care of". My dad has since reserved and paid for his plot and when the time comes I will let my cousin again take care of everything. I always thought it was kind of creepy that he wanted to be a funeral director, but I'm so glad we have one in the family whom we can trust and rely on during the most difficult times.

[Mom-ninja.]

Thanks for the info and links 

[KungFuPanda]

I know Faith has mentioned this before, but I'm still astounded that there is a location where a grieving family is expected to cater a meal.  That's just wrong.  Hold a funeral, say goodbye, then go your separate ways. If you are close to the family drop by wherever the family is gathering with a covered dish.  Help where you can, then skedaddle if you're not directly tending to a member of the grieving family.  It's always been my experience that the grieving family receives more food than they can handle and they have enough to feed themselves and to offer to any visitors over the next few days.

 

Once a friend had a death and had to leave town.  We asked how we could help.  Her house was a mess, the funeral was out of town, and some relatives were coming back to stay with her.  She allowed a team of 4 or 5 of us went in and had her company-ready in less than two hours.  Another time we set up an online meal delivery rotation so she wouldn't have too much food at once.  If I just lost someone I'm not going to CARE how people get fed.  That's nuts.

[Guest]

I know Faith has mentioned this before, but I'm still astounded that there is a location where a grieving family is expected to cater a meal. That's just wrong. Hold a funeral, say goodbye, then go your separate ways. If you are close to the family drop by wherever the family is gathering with a covered dish. Help where you can, then skedaddle if you're not directly tending to a member of the grieving family. It's always been my experience that the grieving family receives more food than they can handle and they have enough to feed themselves and to offer to any visitors over the next few days.

 

Once a friend had a death and had to leave town. We asked how we could help. Her house was a mess, the funeral was out of town, and some relatives were coming back to stay with her. She allowed a team of 4 or 5 of us went in and had her company-ready in less than two hours. Another time we set up an online meal delivery rotation so she wouldn't have too much food at once. If I just lost someone I'm not going to CARE how people get fed. That's nuts.

I have had a notion for a long while that once my kids are all out of the nest, assuming I have more time to fill than I do now, I would like to operate a charity residential cleaning service, maybe parallel to a for-profit cleaning service. But I have thought this before, that I would be happy to come clean someone's home when they have a need like this, or if they had a child death or some other tragedy. I even have a proposed name for it - Hearts at Home. I don't know how it would actually work in such a way that I would be able to manage the charity cleanings while hopefully not turning away a lot of people in need. But I guess I could cross tat bridge if/ when I come to it.