Moving speculations

[Murphy101]

Soooo..

 

If you wanted to move to a place with:

 

Universal healthcare

Decent affordable education options, both primary and college, including home schooling

Average joe/Jane job opportunities (no college degrees) for middle aged folks

Open to people with the above situation migrating to their area

 

Where would you suggest such a couple move?

 

Mostly theoretical but could get far more serious if a viable option existed. So far everything I've seen suggests it isn't really a viable option... but maybe more eyes looking would help?

[AmandaVT]

Soooo..

 

If you wanted to move to a place with:

 

Universal healthcare

Decent affordable education options, both primary and college, including home schooling

Average joe/Jane job opportunities (no college degrees) for middle aged folks

Open to people with the above situation migrating to their area

 

Where would you suggest such a couple move?

 

Mostly theoretical but could get far more serious if a viable option existed. So far everything I've seen suggests it isn't really a viable option... but maybe more eyes looking would help?

 

May I come with you? :-) 

[Ali in OR]

Canada?

[Murphy101]

Canada?

As far as I can tell, Canada would not be open to average joes like us moving there. No desired degree field and a need for medical actually disqualifies us.

[amy g.]

Are there countries with universal healthcare that accept average Joes?

 

I don't know why, but I always assumed that they put heavy restrictions on new citizens.

 

Hopefully that isn't true.

[TravelingChris]

I don't think there is any country like that.  Sorry. I mean they are some that let you come with no college degree and in fact, many don't insist on that but what they do want is whatever skills they need.  So some place that may be oil workers, Many countries will allow you to come if you can start a business and have the monetary resources that business requires.  But most countries have strict medical guidelines of who will be admitted.  Also, many countries that in America we say have universal healthcare don't really have what we consider that- a government run or paid for health system.  Some do have that- England, for example.  But others have other kinds of solutions which while cheaper than American healthcare, is not truly universal.  I thought that Belgium had universal healthcare but what they had was basically mutual aid societies such as the ones here in the US that are religious based.  I don't know why my cleaning lady and her husband weren't in one of those, but her husband got sick and they had no insurance.  Those plans weren't exactly like the kinds we have here in the US where you pay first and then people send in dues and donations that cover your care but done in a more organized way- the same way that mutual insurances for autos and life exist here.

[Murphy101]

I don't think there is any country like that. Sorry. I mean they are some that let you come with no college degree and in fact, many don't insist on that but what they do want is whatever skills they need. So some place that may be oil workers, Many countries will allow you to come if you can start a business and have the monetary resources that business requires. But most countries have strict medical guidelines of who will be admitted. Also, many countries that in America we say have universal healthcare don't really have what we consider that- a government run or paid for health system. Some do have that- England, for example. But others have other kinds of solutions which while cheaper than American healthcare, is not truly universal. I thought that Belgium had universal healthcare but what they had was basically mutual aid societies such as the ones here in the US that are religious based. I don't know why my cleaning lady and her husband weren't in one of those, but her husband got sick and they had no insurance. Those plans weren't exactly like the kinds we have here in the US where you pay first and then people send in dues and donations that cover your care but done in a more organized way- the same way that mutual insurances for autos and life exist here.

Well that sucks. And makes me have a political question. So double suck.

[Crimson Wife]

My daughter's disabilities would prevent us from immigrating to most countries. Even millionaires who could easily afford to pay for their disabled child's treatment themselves get turned away. :thumbdown:

[Murphy101]

Okay. I don't want this thread locked and I don't think this *should* be a political question but....

 

 

Why the heck are other countries so critical of the states immigration policies when their are own so dadblum strict?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Murphy101

[Janeway]

nm 

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Susan Wise Bauer
Nope.

[Janeway]

nm 

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Susan Wise Bauer
"No politics." Simple.

[TravelingChris]

I don't know why.  Some are also critical of their own immigration requirements or how they treat refugees.  I know some of the Australian posters here have said that they think there countries immigration policies are draconian.

[Mergath]

Okay. I don't want this thread locked and I don't think this *should* be a political question but....

 

 

Why the heck are other countries so critical of the states immigration policies when their are own so dadblum strict?

 

When I hear criticism (aside from the recent attempted bans, which I won't get into) it's usually because it costs SO MUCH to legally immigrate here. The legal fees are ridiculous.

[Mergath]

nm 

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Mergath
Don't engage...

[poppy]

America in 50 years, hopefully!!!!

[wintermom]

As far as I can tell, Canada would not be open to average joes like us moving there. No desired degree field and a need for medical actually disqualifies us.

 

If one of your children came to Canada, they might be able to sponsor you to move here, too. 

[Amira]

I see very little criticism of overall US immigration policy from other countries. Like others have said, most countries don't make it easy to permanently immigrate to them and they don't expect the US to make it any easier.

 

There is criticism of or concern over certain US policies from other countries, but that is usually about how those countries' own citizens are treated. We bring up similar concerns regarding US citizens living temporarily or permanently in other countries.

[Ausmumof3]

Australia fits your other requirements but immigration laws are strict.

 

That said some of our "desired immigrants" aren't always college degrees but may be trades.

[J-rap]

Canada?

 

[displace]

Okay. I don't want this thread locked and I don't think this *should* be a political question but....

 

 

Why the heck are other countries so critical of the states immigration policies when their are own so dadblum strict?

I haven't seen other countries critical of our immigration. I've seen us critical, because it's unconstitutional to deny immigration based on country of origin, religion, etc. We have a strong history of immigration (though we can debate that for a while too 😆).

[Melissa in Australia]

I don't know why. Some are also critical of their own immigration requirements or how they treat refugees. I know some of the Australian posters here have said that they think there countries immigration policies are draconian.

Not all Aussie posters think that about our country's immigration policy. I for one really like it and I am married to an immigrant.😊

[Pam in CT]

Distinction between immigration vs refugee policy:

 

I see very little criticism of overall US immigration policy from other countries. Like others have said, most countries don't make it easy to permanently immigrate to them and they don't expect the US to make it any easier.

There is criticism of or concern over certain US policies from other countries, but that is usually about how those countries' own citizens are treated. We bring up similar concerns regarding US citizens living temporarily or permanently in other countries.

 

 Agreed.  Virtually all countries limit immigration, and also shape immigration policies around labor force needs and investment goals, just as we do.  

 

Refugee policy is different -- people fleeing for their lives from civil war/ ethnic genocide / famine.  The US does get some amount of criticism from other countries for taking in far fewer refugees proportionate to our size than many others.  That's a different population group, though, from planned voluntary immigrants looking for economic opportunity or better healthcare etc -- refugees cannot even choose what country they're placed in.

[AmandaVT]

Iceland may fit most of those requirements - I read a blog post a little while back, written by a woman who had recently moved there. 

 

 

[Murphy101]

Iceland may fit most of those requirements - I read a blog post a little while back, written by a woman who had recently moved there.

Iceland. Of course it'd be Iceland what with my deep hatred of cold weather. 😂😭😨*shudder*

[wintermom]

Iceland. Of course it'd be Iceland what with my deep hatred of cold weather. 😂😭😨*shudder*

 

I doubt Iceland is all that cold surrounded by oceans. Canada and parts of US would be have much more severe cold periods being far inland. The country's name isn't reflective of it's actual climate. Greenland isn't very green.

[Murphy101]

I doubt Iceland is all that cold surrounded by oceans. Canada and parts of US would be have much more severe cold periods being far inland. The country's name isn't reflective of it's actual climate. Greenland isn't very green.

No. Iceland is aptly named. It's cold there. Sure there's colder places. Siberia maybe. But it's still plenty cold by most standards.

 

Antarctica is surrounded by ocean too. Lol

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Iceland

 

Eta: With my son and he says -Look - It's got two climate regions! Tundra and and subpolar. lol. The term "Subarctic" doesn't sounds too cozy to me either.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Murphy101

[wintermom]

No. Iceland is aptly named. It's cold there. Sure there's colder places. Siberia maybe. But it's still plenty cold by most standards.

 

Antarctica is surrounded by ocean too. Lol

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Iceland

 

Eta: With my son and he says -Look - It's got two climate regions! Tundra and and subpolar. lol. The term "Subarctic" doesn't sounds too cozy to me either.

 

That is very mild, actually, even when you take into account that these are averages. You just don't have any experience of what cold climates really are, I'm guessing. ;)

 

Subarctic/subpolar is more about geographic location, rather than actual temps. Tundra is vegetation, not temperature. The vegetation is limited because of the soil, winds, etc. not simply because of the cold. If it was really cold, you would see much lower temps in the winter months. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by wintermom

[Murphy101]

Okay. Then I don't know really cold. The cold I do know is too cold and thats cold enough.

 

I mean, I'd endure it for cheap insulin bc I guess I love my husband. Maybe. Let's all be thankful my love hasn't been tested that much. Yet.

[Amy in NH]

A little chilly for summer, but quite nice for winter!

[Lady Florida.]

Iceland. Of course it'd be Iceland what with my deep hatred of cold weather. 😂😭😨*shudder*

 

 

That is very mild, actually, even when you take into account that these are averages. You just don't have any experience of what cold climates really are, I'm guessing. ;)

 

Subarctic/subpolar is more about geographic location, rather than actual temps. Tundra is vegetation, not temperature. The vegetation is limited because of the soil, winds, etc. not simply because of the cold. If it was really cold, you would see much lower temps in the winter months. 

 

 

Okay. Then I don't know really cold. The cold I do know is too cold and thats cold enough.

 

I mean, I'd endure it for cheap insulin bc I guess I love my husband. Maybe. Let's all be thankful my love hasn't been tested that much. Yet.

 

 

I have to go with Murphy on this one. It's cold there. I've been reading a lot of Icelandic crime fiction which has sent me on rabbit trails looking up information on the country, including the climate. That's not mild to me. That's cold. Cold is relative LOL  :lol:

[wintermom]

The thousands of immigrants and refugees we have in Canada somehow withstand cold temps. I guess it's a question of real need vs comfort. 

[Murphy101]

The thousands of immigrants and refugees we have in Canada somehow withstand cold temps. I guess it's a question of real need vs comfort.

Of course it is. I never denied it was. In fact, I've been making fun of my ridiculous self for being too wussy about cold weather.

[goldberry]

Of course it is. I never denied it was. In fact, I've been making fun of my ridiculous self for being too wussy about cold weather.

 

We've looked at Canada (we might actually have a shot) but the COL is prohibitive.  (Also, my hate of cold figures strongly in the background, so you're not alone!)

 

We're looking at Panama now.  But I also have a hate of humidity and bugs. :(

[wintermom]

Of course it is. I never denied it was. In fact, I've been making fun of my ridiculous self for being too wussy about cold weather.

 

It's understandable to be fearful of the cold, but it would be nice to acknowledge a difference between cold and cold, if that makes any sense. Maybe I should just avoid this forum because there are so many people with cold discrimination who don't even know what cold is. 

[AmandaVT]

No. Iceland is aptly named. It's cold there. Sure there's colder places. Siberia maybe. But it's still plenty cold by most standards.

 

Antarctica is surrounded by ocean too. Lol

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Iceland

 

Eta: With my son and he says -Look - It's got two climate regions! Tundra and and subpolar. lol. The term "Subarctic" doesn't sounds too cozy to me either.

 

One of the neat things about Iceland is geothermal heat. I've read that in places, it can heat the pavement in the winter and is used to heat homes (and water). 

 

The downside to that is all of the active volcanoes, but it also means hot mineral pools and springs! 

[Murphy101]

It's understandable to be fearful of the cold, but it would be nice to acknowledge a difference between cold and cold, if that makes any sense. Maybe I should just avoid this forum because there are so many people with cold discrimination who don't even know what cold is.

What the hell. Cold is temps that make my bones feel like someone is driving icy needles through them to the point it hurts to move my hands and leaving the house brings tears to my eyes.

 

So a hearty bleepy bleep to anyone who says my problem is I just don't know what cold is. Cold HURTS so yeah I don't like it and I really don't care if you or anyone else thinks my pain is justified enough for me to want to avoid it.

 

To others who don't feel that way, literally or figuratively, about cold weather - that's wonderful and I'm genuinely happy you can more comfortably live in colder climates.

 

And even so, I'd gladly endure ice picks being driven through my bones sensation to get my husband or children healthier places to live and maybe even prosper.

 

If it matters. The abundance of books and knitting comes darn close to making up for the cold in Iceland. Maybe I could live as hermit there. Just me and my books and knitting in an over crowded house. That's not a bad picture. Not sure Iceland would be particularly eager to have my clan come do that though....

[Murphy101]

One of the neat things about Iceland is geothermal heat. I've read that in places, it can heat the pavement in the winter and is used to heat homes (and water).

 

The downside to that is all of the active volcanoes, but it also means hot mineral pools and springs!

Oh wow. Now THAT sounds downright divine!

 

I live in a place where in the same week we can have earthquakes, tornados, hail and flash flooding during a fire ban bc of drought. And ice storms on ocassion for surprise fun.

 

Volcanos. Pfft.

[Shellydon]

It's understandable to be fearful of the cold, but it would be nice to acknowledge a difference between cold and cold, if that makes any sense. Maybe I should just avoid this forum because there are so many people with cold discrimination who don't even know what cold is. 

 

Cold discrimination??  I have heard it all.

[luuknam]

In some other thread you mentioned possibly being willing to drop the homeschooling requirement. In NL homeschooling is semi-illegal, but anyway.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding the Dutch immigration website, BUT, afaict, you do not need a college degree. There is a looooooong list of companies that have gone through the process of being allowed to hire foreign employees, so the easiest way would be to get a job at one of those companies:

 

https://ind.nl/Documents/Openbaar_register_Arbeid_Regulier_Kennismigranten.pdf

 

Now, you'd have to make at least full time minimum wage for 23+yos, and to qualify as a "knowledge migrant" you'd have to make at least E4,324/month if you're 30+ (if you're under 30, there's a lower minimum, but something tells me you and your husband are over 30). There are like a million exceptions, rules for if you own 25+% of the company, rules for if you're a freelancer, or if you're a minister for some religion (in that case, you'd have to pass the Dutch exam first, iiuc), etc, etc, etc. Also, the company would have to pay at least market rate, so they can't hire you for less than it would cost for them to hire a Dutch person. Also, you can't have a criminal record within the past 5 years or something, and you might need to pass a TB test (didn't check if the US was on the list of exempt countries).

 

In other words, it's a royal pain to find out what you'd have to do, so, since I'm not you, I'm going to give up right here and now. I suspect it's a lot easier to actually get approved as a knowledge migrant than as just a regular Joe, BUT, you do not need a college degree to qualify as a knowledge migrant - afaict, my wife would qualify as a knowledge migrant if she wanted to get a job in NL, despite not having a college degree (of course, it might be easier for my wife to qualify as being my spouse, but anyway). That said, I have no idea what kind of work your husband does, so that makes it harder to figure things out.

 

You'd have to live in NL for 5 years before you'd be able to apply to become a citizen. I have no idea how health care works before you're a citizen. Of course, you'd need to pass a Dutch exam in order to become a citizen. 

 

Long story short - if you really really wanted to, you could probably figure out how to qualify to emigrate to NL, but I doubt it'd be worth the effort for the bunch of you. 

 

ETA: some company even paid for my wife to come interview in NL a couple of years ago, so, they obviously thought she'd qualify to immigrate.

Edited April 18, 2017 by luuknam

[Shellydon]

For the OP, as far as I know, nothing like that exists.  Most countries have  very strict immigration policies.   I never understood why U.S. citizens are so angry about the U.S. immigration laws when most countries have similar or even more strict immigration policies.

[Upward Journey]

It's understandable to be fearful of the cold, but it would be nice to acknowledge a difference between cold and cold, if that makes any sense. Maybe I should just avoid this forum because there are so many people with cold discrimination who don't even know what cold is. 

 

Yes. I realized that I'd made the leap this year when I started categorizing anything above freezing (32F/0C) as warm, as long as it's not snowing or raining.

 

Yesterday it was negative something or other, and my son couldn't even be bothered to wear a jacket. I, on the other hand, was still wearing three layers ;)

 

Cold is when your nose hairs freeze, and your eyeballs hurt, as soon as you walk out the door  :laugh: Thankfully, even though it's currently snowing, :glare:  I shouldn't have to experience cold cold again, until next winter  :hurray:

[TravelingChris]

Melissa in Australia- I know not all Australians think alike and I figured there must be Australians on this board who think differently about Australian immigration policy just like we have very diverse opinions about US immigration policy here too.  

[TravelingChris]

OP, there are countries that depend on immigrants- I know mainly about some of the Middle Eastern countries,  I have no idea about their medical insurance practices and I don't think most of the jobs pay that much.  

[luuknam]

OP, there are countries that depend on immigrants- I know mainly about some of the Middle Eastern countries,  I have no idea about their medical insurance practices and I don't think most of the jobs pay that much.  

 

 

But at least they're warm!

[lauranc]

What the hell. Cold is temps that make my bones feel like someone is driving icy needles through them to the point it hurts to move my hands and leaving the house brings tears to my eyes.

 

So a hearty bleepy bleep to anyone who says my problem is I just don't know what cold is. Cold HURTS so yeah I don't like it and I really don't care if you or anyone else thinks my pain is justified enough for me to want to avoid it.

 

To others who don't feel that way, literally or figuratively, about cold weather - that's wonderful and I'm genuinely happy you can more comfortably live in colder climates.

 

And even so, I'd gladly endure ice picks being driven through my bones sensation to get my husband or children healthier places to live and maybe even prosper.

 

If it matters. The abundance of books and knitting comes darn close to making up for the cold in Iceland. Maybe I could live as hermit there. Just me and my books and knitting in an over crowded house. That's not a bad picture. Not sure Iceland would be particularly eager to have my clan come do that though....

 

I'm sorry... this response just made me chuckle  :001_smile: -- .  I can't believe there is arguing over what cold really means. I hear you...

[AmandaVT]

Oh wow. Now THAT sounds downright divine!

 

I live in a place where in the same week we can have earthquakes, tornados, hail and flash flooding during a fire ban bc of drought. And ice storms on ocassion for surprise fun.

 

Volcanos. Pfft.

 

That's a large variety of severe weather! Volcanoes wouldn't be too hard to contend with for sure! (as long as you're not in the path of lava)

 

Knitting, books and geothermal hot springs sounds heavenly to me!

[Murphy101]

But at least they're warm!

No no no. They are HOT. But it's okay. It's not like it's real heat. It's a dry heat. People just don't understand the difference between hot and *hot * because they are heat discriminators. 😜

[amy g.]

It was hovering around 50 F at the swim meet in Northern California last weekend.

 

Boy were we cold! Pretty sure we would never survive someplace really cold!

[Liz CA]

Perhaps tell us what places are off your list so we can zero in better.  :)

 

I was thinking Italy. Since you don't like cold, make sure to look at places south of the Alpine range. San Marino - a separate state inside Italy is one place where homeschooling is illegal, but I believe it's legal anywhere else in Italy. I do not know about medical insurance details other than they did have something called
"National Insurance Fund" - but it's warm, the people are generally friendly (some even more than friendly :) ).

[Murphy101]

I don't like cold but healthcare is > cold on list of things desirable vs things to avoid.