3 teens killed in home invasion

[poppy]

I do think an AR-14 Rifle is an absurd weapon for home defense.  Here is a picture of it.   Here the homeowner's son killed three people and didn't know it.   He had no idea how many shots he fired . He had no idea how many people he shot.   

I don't think he was in the wrong  I don't think a homeowner is obligated to fire a warning shot. But I also don't think this sounds like someone with any training or experience or clue to use his deadly weapon.

 

[EmseB]

Also, if someone is not running away as soon as they discover the house is occupied, what else could their intentions possibly be? Trying to make friends? Have lunch? You're "innocently" burgaling a house you thought was empty, you run like the dickens when you find out it's not. Any other action is threatening given I can be overpowered pretty easily and have to defend, not only myself, but little kids.

[EmseB]

I do think an AR-14 Rifle is an absurd weapon for home defense. Here is a picture of it. Here the homeowner's son killed three people and didn't know it. He had no idea how many shots he fired . He had no idea how many people he shot.

I don't think he was in the wrong I don't think a homeowner is obligated to fire a warning shot. But I also don't think this sounds like someone with any training or experience or clue to use his deadly weapon.

Why is it absurd to own a rifle? Based on the picture it looks like a pretty basic rifle to me?

 

And if the guy shot and hit his target while under stress and then could still talk coherently with the dispatcher he doesn't seem out of his depth to me.

 

It is notoriously hard to estimate after the fact how many bullets were shot, even for people who are extensively trained. He barricaded himself in his room after shooting, so he didn't know who was dead or not. It was smarter to get the heck away from them and wait for police than try to do an assessment of the criminals in his home.

Edited March 31, 2017 by EmseB

[SKL]

I do think an AR-14 Rifle is an absurd weapon for home defense.  Here is a picture of it.   Here the homeowner's son killed three people and didn't know it.   He had no idea how many shots he fired . He had no idea how many people he shot.   

I don't think he was in the wrong  I don't think a homeowner is obligated to fire a warning shot. But I also don't think this sounds like someone with any training or experience or clue to use his deadly weapon.

 

He was woken out of bed and did whatever he did pretty soon thereafter.  He may or may not have been perfectly lucid, rational, accurate.

 

So, people need to think about that before they bust into other people's houses.  You can't assume the person who lives there is going to be professional about how he deters you.

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by SKL

[Catwoman]

He was woken out of bed and did whatever he did pretty soon thereafter. He may or may not have been perfectly lucid, rational, accurate.

 

So, people need to think about that before they bust into other people's houses. You can't assume the person in who lives there is going to be professional about how he deters you.

 

Yes, the solution is to stay the heck out of other people's houses so you won't have to worry about what kind of gun the owner might have.

 

Also, it's not like these were innocent teens playing a little prank. They may not have had guns, but they were not unarmed. The homeowner had every reason to believe his own life was in danger.

[Word Nerd]

So, minors with a knife and brass knuckles stupidly went up against an adult with a semi-automatic. Sorry, fellow Americans... I know the law is on the homeowner's side. I know the woman is charged for that reason. I absolutely think they had the right to defend themselves, but all three ended up dead and I am left wondering about unreasonable force. Were the robbers coming at him the whole time? Did he at least fire a warning shot? Were they in close corners the whole time or was there a way to warn them? Did he chase them down and shoot them in the backs? Did they at least get the right of retreat? I need more information before I can say for sure.

 

Bring on the flames and hate. Americans are not 100% united on this as implied above.

 

Or maybe you aren't the only person to raise questions like these but we think law enforcement is more capable of answering them during their investigation than a bunch of people online who read a news story. 

[mom2scouts]

Warning shot? No, just no for all the reasons mentioned and more. This isn't an an action movie.

[Farrar]

Also, if someone is not running away as soon as they discover the house is occupied, what else could their intentions possibly be? Trying to make friends? Have lunch? You're "innocently" burgaling a house you thought was empty, you run like the dickens when you find out it's not. Any other action is threatening given I can be overpowered pretty easily and have to defend, not only myself, but little kids.

 

So, you don't believe there should ever be a right to retreat? You start to do something dumb, you deserve to die no matter what.

 

Lovely.

 

I hate Americans and their guns.

[lovinmyboys]

I do think an AR-14 Rifle is an absurd weapon for home defense. Here is a picture of it. Here the homeowner's son killed three people and didn't know it. He had no idea how many shots he fired . He had no idea how many people he shot.

I don't think he was in the wrong I don't think a homeowner is obligated to fire a warning shot. But I also don't think this sounds like someone with any training or experience or clue to use his deadly weapon.

It is extremely common/normal to not know how many shots were fired. When LEOs are interviewed after encounters, they rarely know how many times they shot. In fact, sometimes they will say they discharged their weapon several times when they never even took one shot. Human brains do weird things during a crisis.

[Farrar]

The whole teenagers who got talked into a stupid robbery with brass knuckles deserve to be shot and killed even if they run away mentality is not one I can ever agree with. No one deserves to die for this. It may be their deaths really were justified and unavoidable. But the "I'm glad they died" mentality here? I find it sickening. And a large number of people have expressed it.

[Word Nerd]

I hate Americans and their guns.

 

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to hijack the thread.

[lovinmyboys]

So, you don't believe there should ever be a right to retreat? You start to do something dumb, you deserve to die no matter what.

 

Lovely.

 

I hate Americans and their guns.

I think if possible the burglar should have a chance to retreat, but if they don't retreat as soon as they realize the house is occupied it seems to me that someone is likely to get hurt. Why wouldn't they retreat if they know the house is occupied? If they are willing to enter an occupied house to steal stuff, my guess is they are willing to hurt the occupants to get it.

 

Fwiw, I have heard that if you are armed in your home you should announce that and give the intruder time to get out. Obviously, that isn't always possible.

[thessa516]

I do think an AR-14 Rifle is an absurd weapon for home defense.  Here is a picture of it.   Here the homeowner's son killed three people and didn't know it.   He had no idea how many shots he fired . He had no idea how many people he shot.   

I don't think he was in the wrong  I don't think a homeowner is obligated to fire a warning shot. But I also don't think this sounds like someone with any training or experience or clue to use his deadly weapon.

 

I'm curious why you think it's an absurd weapon for home defense. Many gun experts would choose a rifle as their top choice for home defense. And why the picture of it? It works like all other semi-automatic weapons. One trigger pull = one shot. It's not a fully automatic weapon. He didn't (and cannot) just hold down the trigger and sweep the gun around like something you would see in a movie. In his situation, I'm not too bothered by the fact that he didn't know how many shots he fired.

[Farrar]

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to hijack the thread.

 

It is absolutely not a hijack to say that this issue is about guns, gun culture, and American views of guns. That's completely on topic.

[Murphy101]

This whole thread is turning up some interesting aspects.

I am generally with you on this statement, however, (even though we have a shotgun) I would probably not be standing next to it or be too frozen / dumbfounded to remember where it's stashed and where the bullets are.

But you don't know that. It's just as likely instinct would bring that information front in center to your brain. Who knows. No one until they are in the thick.

 

One reason I have always had a large dog when lived rurally is because I know when something out of the ordinary is going on by the way my dog reacts.

Oddly enough. In the 911 call, he tells the dispatcher to let the cops know his dogs are friendly. And remember in this case, he was asleep until he heard the breaking in, so maybe he didn't pick up on the dogs.

 

Do you all think you would be prepared for an intruder (assuming no weapon)?

Should we refresh our basic self-defense skills unless we have a black belt in martial arts?

I have no idea and hope I never do. A week or so before I had the baby, I was leaving a store and when I opened the side door on the van a homeless guy sat up in the bench seat. I just sorta stood there dumbfounded. He said he thought my shopping would take longer and he just wanted out of the cold. He got out and wandered off. I don't think I said a word. I shut the door and opened a different door to put my bags in, then drove home. It wasn't until I got to my driveway that I sorta snapped out of it. Felt like crap because I didn't give the guy any food or offer places he could find shelter. And about 8? Years ago I was sitting in the living room rocking a a baby and this guy walking right into my house from the garage and looked around confused and said, "huh. Wrong house." And turned around and walked out. LoI

 

So I don't know. I didn't feel threatened in either of those situations. Surprised, but not threatened.

 

Murphy said a human being can be a weapon. I am not sure I would be a very effective weapon.

Of course effectiveness matters, but yet, your feeling inadequate and vulnerable could actually make you more dangerous be you are more likely to act desperately more aggressive in defense.

 

Don't take this analogy wrong, but let's take dogs as an example. Everyone worried about my Great Dane and English mastiff around little kids. So worried they'd bite. But the truth is, my Great Dane and English mastiff were huge and touch and didn't feel even a little threatened by my little ones. Where as they were more likely to be bit by the cat or the rabbit or the miniature Doberman be all of those critters felt like you - scared they couldn't do enough damage when they felt threatened, so they were far more likely to bite faster. And there's good reason for that be the truth is they ARE more vulnerable and it will take more effort to protect themselves. Humans can be that way too.

 

All I remember from some self-defense class is two fingers spread are the distance of most people's eyes and it hurts when you stick your finger in eyes. Then there is the knee in the crotch method, if you are in the right position for that. Fingernails can claw, teeth can bite. Hmmm. Oh, I just remember I have two heavy cast iron pans too.

Maybe I stand next to the butcher block when someone comes in...

 

I don't mean to sound facetious or sarcastic. I am just wondering if I need to raise my own awareness and think about these things more often.

Idk. Would you like to learn more? Be if you are happy enough as is, then I think that's fine and I'm glad for you. There's lots of reasons people learn more about self defense.

 

Personally, I knit. So burglars and vampires beware I'm armed with sharp sticks and that's about it.

[thessa516]

It is absolutely not a hijack to say that this issue is about guns, gun culture, and American views of guns. That's completely on topic.

 

It is a hijack to say that you hate Americans.

 

Hate guns all you like, but it was rude of you to say that you hate Americans.

[gardenmom5]

We had someone try and break into our home (in a nice neighborhood) three times while we lived there - we were home and cars were parked in the driveway each time.  Kids there are raised to know that they can be shot if caught breaking into a home, but they do it anyway.  Usually meth addiction was the reason the police blamed.

 

 

we had a break-in by a druggie gang - we were the third house hit *that night*.  we came home - and there were police cars in the driveway of a house up the street WHILE THEY WERE IN OUR HOUSE.  these are very brazen thieves.  driving up, the noise we made - they managed to hightail it out before we entered the house.

 

I am glad it ended how it did. I hope the get away driver never gets out of prison. Hopefully, none of them have procreated yet. Society is better off today with them gone.

 

darwin awards?

 

What I took away from that conversations was that if I feel threatened and the perpetrator is not backing away I can defend myself. As you said, there have been incidents where people intruded in someone's home, faced a person with a gun and turned around fast.

Someone else mentioned a scenario that a drunk person could mistake your house for a friend's house, etc.

I think it comes down to having to make a judgment call in some situations. Obviously, if you encounter intruders such as in this case, it won't take long to figure out this is not an innocent mistake.

 

 

the thing is - delaying allows them to close the distance to you.  if they approach at all - all bets are off.  there are too many instances of someone "pretending" to be drunk while they approach the victim.  by the time it become apparent the "drunk" isn't drunk - it's too late to do anything about it unless the person has good fighting skills.

[Word Nerd]

It is absolutely not a hijack to say that this issue is about guns, gun culture, and American views of guns. That's completely on topic.

 

That's not what you said.

[unsinkable]

So, minors with a knife and brass knuckles stupidly went up against an adult with a semi-automatic. Sorry, fellow Americans... I know the law is on the homeowner's side. I know the woman is charged for that reason. I absolutely think they had the right to defend themselves, but all three ended up dead and I am left wondering about unreasonable force. Were the robbers coming at him the whole time? Did he at least fire a warning shot? Were they in close corners the whole time or was there a way to warn them? Did he chase them down and shoot them in the backs? Did they at least get the right of retreat? I need more information before I can say for sure.

 

Bring on the flames and hate. Americans are not 100% united on this as implied above.

So, you don't believe there should ever be a right to retreat? You start to do something dumb, you deserve to die no matter what.

 

Lovely.

 

I hate Americans and their guns.

Did mean that YOU were going to bring the flames and hate?

 

Or you wanted the flames and hate?

 

It's confusing. :confused:

[unsinkable]

But you don't know that. It's just as likely instinct would bring that information front in center to your brain. Who knows. No one until they are in the thick.

 

 

Oddly enough. In the 911 call, he tells the dispatcher to let the cops know his dogs are friendly. And remember in this case, he was asleep until he heard the breaking in, so maybe he didn't pick up on the dogs.

 

 

I have no idea and hope I never do. A week or so before I had the baby, I was leaving a store and when I opened the side door on the van a homeless guy sat up in the bench seat. I just sorta stood there dumbfounded. He said he thought my shopping would take longer and he just wanted out of the cold. He got out and wandered off. I don't think I said a word. I shut the door and opened a different door to put my bags in, then drove home. It wasn't until I got to my driveway that I sorta snapped out of it. Felt like crap because I didn't give the guy any food or offer places he could find shelter. And about 8? Years ago I was sitting in the living room rocking a a baby and this guy walking right into my house from the garage and looked around confused and said, "huh. Wrong house." And turned around and walked out. LoI

 

So I don't know. I didn't feel threatened in either of those situations. Surprised, but not threatened.

 

 

Of course effectiveness matters, but yet, your feeling inadequate and vulnerable could actually make you more dangerous be you are more likely to act desperately more aggressive in defense.

 

Don't take this analogy wrong, but let's take dogs as an example. Everyone worried about my Great Dane and English mastiff around little kids. So worried they'd bite. But the truth is, my Great Dane and English mastiff were huge and touch and didn't feel even a little threatened by my little ones. Where as they were more likely to be bit by the cat or the rabbit or the miniature Doberman be all of those critters felt like you - scared they couldn't do enough damage when they felt threatened, so they were far more likely to bite faster. And there's good reason for that be the truth is they ARE more vulnerable and it will take more effort to protect themselves. Humans can be that way too.

 

 

Idk. Would you like to learn more? Be if you are happy enough as is, then I think that's fine and I'm glad for you. There's lots of reasons people learn more about self defense.

 

Personally, I knit. So burglars and vampires beware I'm armed with sharp sticks and that's about it.

You should have some Holy Water available, too, yes?

[SKL]

The whole teenagers who got talked into a stupid robbery with brass knuckles deserve to be shot and killed even if they run away mentality is not one I can ever agree with. No one deserves to die for this. It may be their deaths really were justified and unavoidable. But the "I'm glad they died" mentality here? I find it sickening. And a large number of people have expressed it.

 

I think you might have misunderstood a PP.  The PP said that if the perps DID NOT try to run away when they knew someone was home, then that indicates they were up for a violent fight.

 

I haven't seen anyone imply perps should be shot in the back while running away.

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by SKL

[Murphy101]

I do think an AR-14 Rifle is an absurd weapon for home defense. Here is a picture of it. Here the homeowner's son killed three people and didn't know it. He had no idea how many shots he fired . He had no idea how many people he shot.

I don't think he was in the wrong I don't think a homeowner is obligated to fire a warning shot. But I also don't think this sounds like someone with any training or experience or clue to use his deadly weapon.

It's just a rifle. Presumably bought for hunting purposes. It's a one trigger one shot action. Likely he triggered several times. Which is not unusual. With multiple moving targets in a small area, it would not be shocking to not know all details in the chaos of the moment. Or he could have been in denial due to shock and trauma. Edited March 31, 2017 by Murphy101

[Wheres Toto]

I'm surprised it took this long for someone to hijack the thread.

 

I don't think a different opinion is a hijack.  It certainly seems on-topic to me.   

Maybe the shooting was justified but I do wonder why he had a loaded, easily accessible semi-automatic weapon close enough to grab immediately upon waking up.  But that's me thinking about kids in the house.  Maybe there weren't any younger children.

 

I don't know if I'd be able to react if someone broke in.  We don't have guns and most people we know don't.  I'm in NJ, guns aren't quite as common as some other states.  I used to sleep with a knife under my pillow but don't anymore.  We keep a metal baseball bat near the main door and have a small, but very noisy dog.

 

There was a fatal shooting during an armed robbery at a frat house in Newark last year.  My oldest daughter was in that house during that shooting.  So, I'm definitely not on the side of the perpetrators.  

[Katy]

Ugh...  sometimes I wish that movies and TV shows that include guns in the plot had a legal warning statement that they have completely ignored all gun safety rules and changed the way guns actually work as a plot device.  People should KNOW that warning shots are dangerous, that you should shoot to kill not to maim,  and that even police do not pull a weapon unless they have determined this is a life or death situation.

 

Furthermore, if you live in a state where you KNOW that a homeowner has an unquestionable right to defend himself, those idiots walked into the house knowing that while they might make it out of there with something of value that they could trade for drugs or whatever it was that they wanted, there was also a huge possibility that they could die and there would be no legal consequence to the person who killed them, because it would be justified.

 

I think the real moral issue here is why do we live in a country where drug prohibition has created a multi-billion dollar prison industry complex when instead we could spend those dollars legalizing and regulating drugs (including taking away some basic rights of registered drug users - like the right to have children while on drugs), taxing, and giving treatment to these kids rather than having them steal to support an illegal habit and then ending up dead or in prison on and off until they are dead.

[Catwoman]

So, you don't believe there should ever be a right to retreat? You start to do something dumb, you deserve to die no matter what.

 

Lovely.

 

I hate Americans and their guns.

The whole teenagers who got talked into a stupid robbery with brass knuckles deserve to be shot and killed even if they run away mentality is not one I can ever agree with. No one deserves to die for this. It may be their deaths really were justified and unavoidable. But the "I'm glad they died" mentality here? I find it sickening. And a large number of people have expressed it.

Who said they tried to run away? Why are you assuming they weren't attacking the homeowner?

 

If they weren't prepared to harm the homeowner, they wouldn't have been carrying any weapons.

 

Would you have preferred to have read a news story about a homeowner who had been beaten and stabbed to death by three home invaders?

 

 

(Edited to fix the quotes.)

Edited March 31, 2017 by Catwoman

[Selkie]

The whole teenagers who got talked into a stupid robbery with brass knuckles deserve to be shot and killed even if they run away mentality is not one I can ever agree with. No one deserves to die for this. It may be their deaths really were justified and unavoidable. But the "I'm glad they died" mentality here? I find it sickening. And a large number of people have expressed it.

 

I don't find it sickening that people are glad three armed home invaders suffered the consequences of their actions - and are no longer alive to commit more violent crimes against innocent victims. 

 

I think it's pretty easy to criticize the actions of the homeowner when you're not the one waking up to three armed intruders in your house. I'm guessing you would see the situation very differently if they had broken into your home. 

[Liz CA]

But you don't know that. It's just as likely instinct would bring that information front in center to your brain. Who knows. No one until they are in the thick.

 

 

Oddly enough. In the 911 call, he tells the dispatcher to let the cops know his dogs are friendly. And remember in this case, he was asleep until he heard the breaking in, so maybe he didn't pick up on the dogs.

 

 

I have no idea and hope I never do. A week or so before I had the baby, I was leaving a store and when I opened the side door on the van a homeless guy sat up in the bench seat. I just sorta stood there dumbfounded. He said he thought my shopping would take longer and he just wanted out of the cold. He got out and wandered off. I don't think I said a word. I shut the door and opened a different door to put my bags in, then drove home. It wasn't until I got to my driveway that I sorta snapped out of it. Felt like crap because I didn't give the guy any food or offer places he could find shelter. And about 8? Years ago I was sitting in the living room rocking a a baby and this guy walking right into my house from the garage and looked around confused and said, "huh. Wrong house." And turned around and walked out. LoI

 

So I don't know. I didn't feel threatened in either of those situations. Surprised, but not threatened.

 

 

Of course effectiveness matters, but yet, your feeling inadequate and vulnerable could actually make you more dangerous be you are more likely to act desperately more aggressive in defense.

 

Don't take this analogy wrong, but let's take dogs as an example. Everyone worried about my Great Dane and English mastiff around little kids. So worried they'd bite. But the truth is, my Great Dane and English mastiff were huge and touch and didn't feel even a little threatened by my little ones. Where as they were more likely to be bit by the cat or the rabbit or the miniature Doberman be all of those critters felt like you - scared they couldn't do enough damage when they felt threatened, so they were far more likely to bite faster. And there's good reason for that be the truth is they ARE more vulnerable and it will take more effort to protect themselves. Humans can be that way too.

 

 

Idk. Would you like to learn more? Be if you are happy enough as is, then I think that's fine and I'm glad for you. There's lots of reasons people learn more about self defense.

 

Personally, I knit. So burglars and vampires beware I'm armed with sharp sticks and that's about it.

 

:lol: :lol:  I have crochet hooks...several of them.

 

I hope you are right in that I would not just stand there dumbfounded. I don't have little kids in the house anymore - no kids at all. I think (again, we cannot know for sure and thank God I never had to find out) if there were kids here, I would definitely try NOT to freeze.

For a long time, when threads like this popped up I always thought "I'd fight like crazy," and I still hope I would but I am not so cocky anymore to think I could not be the one who is scared stiff.

 

I had to laugh about your analogy with mastiffs and little creatures. I've had two mastiffs (a Neopolitan and a Cane Corso) and both of them were big gentle giants but the bullyish face scared many people off. However, had one of us been threatened I think they would have stepped up to the plate. The boxer I have now...hmmmm, not so sure.

 

I heard the 911 call and remember him saying there are friendly dogs out there. Truly, I thought "what good are they?"

 

The homeowner's son sounded very coherent and I hope there will be no charges whatsoever.

 

[Guest]

I think you might have misunderstood a PP. The PP said that if the perps DID NOT try to run away when they knew someone was home, then that indicates they were up for a violent fight.

 

I haven't seen anyone imply perps should be shot in the back while running away.

 

And to do so is actually illegal in most states. If they are retreating or running shooting them in the back is unjustifiable. There are some exceptions but that's not what happened here. Edited March 31, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[Catwoman]

I don't think a different opinion is a hijack. It certainly seems on-topic to me.

Maybe the shooting was justified but I do wonder why he had a loaded, easily accessible semi-automatic weapon close enough to grab immediately upon waking up. But that's me thinking about kids in the house. Maybe there weren't any younger children.

 

I don't know if I'd be able to react if someone broke in. We don't have guns and most people we know don't. I'm in NJ, guns aren't quite as common as some other states. I used to sleep with a knife under my pillow but don't anymore. We keep a metal baseball bat near the main door and have a small, but very noisy dog.

 

There was a fatal shooting during an armed robbery at a frat house in Newark last year. My oldest daughter was in that house during that shooting. So, I'm definitely not on the side of the perpetrators.

Thank goodness your dd wasn't shot!!! That must have been terrifying for her. :(

[Wheres Toto]

Thank goodness your dd wasn't shot!!! That must have been terrifying for her. :(

 

It was.   Her and a few friends were there and were sleeping until the shots were fired.   She texted me right away to let me know she was okay thankfully since her car was clearly visible in some of the news reports.   :sad:   She had a very rough time her last semester of college.  The shooting was the week of finals (they were at the house studying with friends), her grandfather died a month before the shooting, and her cousin died of a heroin overdoes about a month before her grandfather died.

[Murphy101]

So, you don't believe there should ever be a right to retreat? You start to do something dumb, you deserve to die no matter what.

 

Lovely.

 

I hate Americans and their guns.

Gee. I was accused of being impolite by charging into another culture just because I said a particular law was useless gibberish.

 

But this is of course sweet and not at all rude?

 

Not to mention not true. The vast majority of this thread has been sadness that these young people are dead for such stupid actions, justified though it was. And no one has suggested it would be okay to shoot them in the backs as they run away. There is no indication these men were running anywhere but into trouble. Even most stand your ground laws don't condone that. When someone runs away, stand your ground doesn't apply bc you aren't being threatened any longer.

 

Why is this about guns and gun culture instead of why drop outs of high school during their senior year do crap like this? Or why a 16 yr old was shacking up with a 21 yr old? Or many other things that led to this end for those criminals and doesn't have a thing to do with blaming their victim? The path those men were taking was leading to a short life one way or another. Why is that not what this is about?

[Catwoman]

:lol: :lol: I have crochet hooks...several of them.

 

"Dude, we better not break into that house. The crazy lady who lives there has crochet hooks and

she knows how to use them!"

Edited March 31, 2017 by Catwoman

[Word Nerd]

Gee. I was accused of being impolite by charging into another culture just because I said a particular law was useless gibberish.

 

But this is of course sweet and not at all rude?

 

 

But it's just a different opinion, or so I've been told.

[Catwoman]

It was. Her and a few friends were there and were sleeping until the shots were fired. She texted me right away to let me know she was okay thankfully since her car was clearly visible in some of the news reports. :sad: She had a very rough time her last semester of college. The shooting was the week of finals (they were at the house studying with friends), her grandfather died a month before the shooting, and her cousin died of a heroin overdoes about a month before her grandfather died.

Wow, it must have been so hard for you, too, because I'm sure you were so worried about her. :grouphug:

[Liz CA]

DP

Edited March 31, 2017 by Liz CA

[Valley Girl]

So, minors with a knife and brass knuckles stupidly went up against an adult with a semi-automatic. Sorry, fellow Americans... I know the law is on the homeowner's side. I know the woman is charged for that reason. I absolutely think they had the right to defend themselves, but all three ended up dead and I am left wondering about unreasonable force. Were the robbers coming at him the whole time? Did he at least fire a warning shot? Were they in close corners the whole time or was there a way to warn them? Did he chase them down and shoot them in the backs? Did they at least get the right of retreat? I need more information before I can say for sure.

 

Bring on the flames and hate. Americans are not 100% united on this as implied above.

 

Warn them? Seriously? Yes, by all means, let's give them time to use their own weapons or find weapons of opportunity to use... grab a child (if one is nearby)... or do any number of other things that will give THEM even more of an advantage.

 

Why do they deserve "warning" that they might be harmed? What advance notice did they provide the homeowner that his home was about to be invaded by people intent on and willing to do him harm? People who knowingly break into occupied homes do so fully aware that they may well encounter someone and, unless they're completely stupid, they have some idea of what they will do against that innocent person.

 

Want to be party to a home invasion? You get what you deserve when the homeowner fights back.

 

Zero sympathy here.

[lovinmyboys]

Warn them? Seriously? Yes, by all means, let's give them time to use their own weapons or find weapons of opportunity to use... grab a child (if one is nearby)... or do any number of other things that will give THEM even more of an advantage.

 

Why do they deserve "warning" that they might be harmed? What advance notice did they provide the homeowner that his home was about to be invaded by people intent on and willing to do him harm? People who knowingly break into occupied homes do so fully aware that they may well encounter someone and, unless they're completely stupid, they have some idea of what they will do against that innocent person.

 

Want to be party to a home invasion? You get what you deserve when the homeowner fights back.

 

Zero sympathy here.

I think a warning is warranted if one can safely be given. Like if the whole family is upstairs and an intruder comes in the main level. The homeowner could yell that he is armed and they need to leave the house. Then he could stay upstairs and only shoot if the intruders started up the steps. But, I agree that no one is under any obligation to warn an intruder if their life or the life of their family is in danger.

[Seasider]

I do think an AR-14 Rifle is an absurd weapon for home defense. Here is a picture of it. Here the homeowner's son killed three people and didn't know it. He had no idea how many shots he fired . He had no idea how many people he shot.

I don't think he was in the wrong I don't think a homeowner is obligated to fire a warning shot. But I also don't think this sounds like someone with any training or experience or clue to use his deadly weapon.

While I believe this man was within his rights, I do wonder whether a regular old hunting shotgun would have proven just as useful without necessarily killing three so easily.

[MercyA]

Ugh...  sometimes I wish that movies and TV shows that include guns in the plot had a legal warning statement that they have completely ignored all gun safety rules and changed the way guns actually work as a plot device.  People should KNOW that warning shots are dangerous, that you should shoot to kill not to maim,  and that even police do not pull a weapon unless they have determined this is a life or death situation.

 

Furthermore, if you live in a state where you KNOW that a homeowner has an unquestionable right to defend himself, those idiots walked into the house knowing that while they might make it out of there with something of value that they could trade for drugs or whatever it was that they wanted, there was also a huge possibility that they could die and there would be no legal consequence to the person who killed them, because it would be justified.

 

I think the real moral issue here is why do we live in a country where drug prohibition has created a multi-billion dollar prison industry complex when instead we could spend those dollars legalizing and regulating drugs (including taking away some basic rights of registered drug users - like the right to have children while on drugs), taxing, and giving treatment to these kids rather than having them steal to support an illegal habit and then ending up dead or in prison on and off until they are dead.

 

Post of the day. 

 

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

[MercyA]

Anyone who has the most rudimentary gun training knows that you should never pull a gun without a willingness to shoot to kill if necessary. As has been said by others, warning shots or shots at the extremities are exceedingly dangerous.

 

If you know you couldn't kill someone, then you should not own a gun. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by MercyA

[Anne in CA]

I really will shoot anyone trying to enter my home. My 17yo dd is here, law enforcement is 45 minutes away at very best, and there have been several sex-trafficing kidnappings in the north state. Anyone entering my home is crossing boundaries they know are wrong. That is their "warning shot". Any local knows that in Shasta County everyone has a gun. That is what is so surprising to me is that the teens in OK tried to prepare for confrontation, but it didn't occur to them that brass knuckles wouldn't hold up against ANY kind of gun? Teens are just not rational at all. 

 

Several times, both here and in Oregon where I used to live people were beaten to death by people who broke into their home. The worst case was way more than 10 years ago when a meth head in Cornelius OR beat a 5yo child to death and beat the child's father so severely that he lived with brain damage. The man who did it "came to himself" and asked for the death penalty for himself. He said he couldn't sleep or think without seeing the face of the 5yo he killed. Honestly, the kindest thing for him would have to been shot on the scene. If I were out of my mind and violent, whether from drugs or mental illness, I would want someone to shoot me before I harmed a child. I accidentally gave a child a peanut butter cookie and he almost died and I have never felt worse in my life. That accident was more his parents fault that mine, but it sure didn't change the horrible way I felt inside. 

 

 

[Seasider]

It's just a rifle. Presumably bought for hunting purposes. It's a one trigger one shot action. Likely he triggered several times. Which is not unusual. With multiple moving targets in a small area, it would not be shocking to not know all details in the chaos of the moment. Or he could have been in denial due to shock and trauma.

Thanks for clarifying, I was under the impression the homeowner had used a fully automatic weapon.

[Seasider]

Who said they tried to run away? Why are you assuming they weren't attacking the homeowner?

 

If they weren't prepared to harm the homeowner, they wouldn't have been carrying any weapons.

 

Would you have preferred to have read a news story about a homeowner who had been beaten and stabbed to death by three home invaders?

 

 

(Edited to fix the quotes.)

And I imagine the homeowner had no idea exactly HOW they were armed until after the fact. In fact, in most local reports of daytime home invasions I've heard, the perpetrators are carrying guns.

[Catwoman]

And I imagine the homeowner had no idea exactly HOW they were armed until after the fact. In fact, in most local reports of daytime home invasions I've heard, the perpetrators are carrying guns.

That's an excellent point. Even if you're facing a guy and he's holding a knife, there's no way to tell if he has a gun in his pocket or tucked into the back of his waistband.

[SKL]

If robbery victims are required to confirm the other person has a gun before shots are fired, then the ratio of injured / murdered homeowners to robbers will be even worse than it already is.

[frogger]

This is not aimed at you Seasider.

 

I love that a picture was posted of it earlier. For some reason a black gun is scarier than a wooden one to someone who doesn't know about guns. Does it really matter if a gun has a nice wood grain?

 

Then someone says something about hating Americans and their gun culture while everyone is sorrowing over the poor guy who never ever wanted to shoot anyone.

 

Not to mention victim shaming. Let's face it when someone is dealing with ARMED intruders who planned on dealing with them with weapons and someone else attacks them for protecting themselves it is definitely victim shaming. It is very unempathetic. Even though I am somewhat of a pacifist I could never tell someone ELSE they had to allow someone to beat in their face with brass knuckles. I'm slightly aghast.

Edited April 1, 2017 by frogger

[bettyandbob]

Side note the drunk teen break in happened near me a couple years ago. 

 

A very drunk teen returned home to find the the door locked. He broke into to his house. Only it wasn't his house. It was his neighbors a few doors down. He lived in a suburban neighborhood where every third house was the same. His friends dropped him at the wrong house and he was so drunk he didn't realize it. He broke in to his neighbor's house and was on the way upstairs to go to bed when he neighbor shot and killed him. It was dark, the neighbor couldn't see who it was and assumed it was a home invasion of some kind. It was very sad for everyone involved. 

[Katy]

I really will shoot anyone trying to enter my home. My 17yo dd is here, law enforcement is 45 minutes away at very best, and there have been several sex-trafficing kidnappings in the north state. Anyone entering my home is crossing boundaries they know are wrong. That is their "warning shot". Any local knows that in Shasta County everyone has a gun. That is what is so surprising to me is that the teens in OK tried to prepare for confrontation, but it didn't occur to them that brass knuckles wouldn't hold up against ANY kind of gun? Teens are just not rational at all. 

 

Several times, both here and in Oregon where I used to live people were beaten to death by people who broke into their home. The worst case was way more than 10 years ago when a meth head in Cornelius OR beat a 5yo child to death and beat the child's father so severely that he lived with brain damage. The man who did it "came to himself" and asked for the death penalty for himself. He said he couldn't sleep or think without seeing the face of the 5yo he killed. Honestly, the kindest thing for him would have to been shot on the scene. If I were out of my mind and violent, whether from drugs or mental illness, I would want someone to shoot me before I harmed a child. I accidentally gave a child a peanut butter cookie and he almost died and I have never felt worse in my life. That accident was more his parents fault that mine, but it sure didn't change the horrible way I felt inside. 

 

Wasn't it just last summer when an elderly man in Tulsa WAS beaten to death by multiple people?  It might have been these same kids.

[Murphy101]

You should have some Holy Water available, too, yes?

Not really. The stupid cat keeps drinking out of my fonts faster than I can keep holy water bottles refilled.

[gardenmom5]

I don't think a different opinion is a hijack.  It certainly seems on-topic to me.   

Maybe the shooting was justified but I do wonder why he had a loaded, easily accessible semi-automatic weapon close enough to grab immediately upon waking up.  But that's me thinking about kids in the house.  Maybe there weren't any younger children.

 

I don't know if I'd be able to react if someone broke in.  We don't have guns and most people we know don't.  I'm in NJ, guns aren't quite as common as some other states.  I used to sleep with a knife under my pillow but don't anymore.  We keep a metal baseball bat near the main door and have a small, but very noisy dog.

 

There was a fatal shooting during an armed robbery at a frat house in Newark last year.  My oldest daughter was in that house during that shooting.  So, I'm definitely not on the side of the perpetrators.  

 

a gun that isn't easily accessible isn't very useful for defending yourself. it's not like you have the time to safely go search out the gun from it's hiding spot, search out the ammo from it's hiding spot, load the gun ... when someone is now inside your home, knows you're home, has produced their own weapons  . . .