Jennifer132 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I'm just wondering if anyone else has encountered this...my sister in law and the rest of her church (it seems from my encounters with them) are very closed to any type of questions, even if asked in the most respectful way possible. She is part of a very charismatic Christian church that came out of Oral Robert's University. Whenever she meets people who disagree or ask why she believes something she will completely avoid the question and accuses them of arguing and of causing division in the church (usually these question center around miracles, healing and women in ministry). I can't understand this. I have always been very open to questions, even from those who I know will never change their minds. I'm wondering if this is unique to her church or if others have encountered this mentality in certain denominations or groups. FTR, I am a Christian as well, but we differ on some points in our theology. I'll give an example: my sil met a man today who is a cessationist (believes healing and other gifts stopped in bible times). He basically said that he doesn't believe that the miracles you see on tv or at big rallies are real. She said that she'd seen miracles like that (ex: tumors falling off of people) and did he think she was lying? She didn't share what he replied. I mentioned that his thoughts were in line with a certain doctrine, and not unique to him. That there were whole denominations who felt that way based on their interpretation of the bible. I said it can be hard for those of us who have never seen those kinds of miracles to imagine them. And I asked her what it was like (did she actually see flesh closing up? Did the tumor fall on the ground, or was her experience second hand through testimony of someone else, etc). I said this in a very curious, benign (non attacking) way. Then she accused me of arguing and became angry. I apologized immediately for upsetting her, but I really don't understand this mindset. This isn't the first incident either.... Someone help me understand, please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 That is certainly not a phenomenon restricted to your sister's church. :lol: The more important it is to someone to be right, the more fragile they are going to be, I guess. 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 What a coincidence! My questions generally end up being interpreted as oppositional or aggressive. I understand this to be due to people feeling frustrated when their beliefs are being challenged and, and answers are challenged in kind. It can be hard to see something you cherish be dismissed as being faulty. It's been suggested I'm a minion of satan, a swine before whom a xian should not throw pearls (ie, discuss), delusional, and that the best course of action is for me to sit down and shut up (the first three were here, the last on another homeschooling forum, ironically, I was a xian at the time). When asked directly, the people who implied the first two refused to answer. I consider that to be the result of frustration, which is interesting, but I'll keep my musing to myself. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I've seen that, too. Sometimes it has to do with a view of authority that is offended by questions. Sometimes it is the incessant and/or belittling nature of the questions--at about round 4 people do get weary (not that that was the case here.) Sometimes it's ignorance or forgetfulness around the rationale for believing something. For instance, if someone believes in women's ordination and someone else does not, either one can fail to know the Biblical support for their position, and can get annoyed at questions that they can't answer. I think it's important to 'always be ready to give an account for the hope that is within you' but I also think that things can go on and on to the point where they are not productive--where your answers are just being used as a jumping off point for more lectures or whatever. Also, it's not completely clear to me that tumors falling off is 'the hope that is within me'--ie the theology and practices around that can be part of church life but they are certainly not central. I think that there has to be room to say, 'We agree to disagree' but that that comes pretty far down the path. For some people, it's a ways up the path. I'm inclined to think that that is OK, unless they are teaching falsely or something. I don't feel like I have to resolve everything with everybody. In fact, I don't think that I can; I'm not that arrogant. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 That's kind of bizarre and touchy. Questions are good and deserve thoughtful and respectful answers, if the asker isn't being a jerk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 It also occurs to me that maybe she has a different idea about what it means to be a SIL. That family don't challenge each other ? That being a good SIL means you should take her side at all times ? Not saying anything about the quality of those assumptions, but maybe you are working on different definitions of -sister-in-law' hood ? Going along with that thought, most irl women's groups I've been in take overt disagreement, even polite overt disagreement, as a declaration that the disagree-er sees the disagree-ee as holding a position that is beyond acceptable boundaries - iow, overt disagreement means that the disagree-er is willing to break the relationship (such as it is) over this issue - it's not an agree-to-disagree thing (or else you wouldn't have been overtly disagreeing in the first place). Rather, acceptable disagreement involves first overtly affirming *something* worthy in what the other person said - overtly showing that we are all on the same side, that relationships are firmly in place - before moving into a positive statement of a position that is somewhat or entirely in disagreement with what the other person said, but without overtly making a point of the fact that there is disagreement. I joke with dh about "how women disagree" - saying that you totally agree, and then explain by saying the exact opposite :lol: - and it's kind of like that, sometimes, but the more I pay attention, the more I see nuances and subtleties and appreciate how it keeps the relationship at the forefront, allowing disagreement but keeping it secondary to the sense that we are all together in this. It's a learned language for me, though - I was the person obliviously overtly disagreeing left, right, and yonder, not realizing how it was taken by others - that they took it more to heart than I meant it. I figure it's a good practice to make sure I find *something* that I can see as genuinely worthy in the other person's position before disagreeing - at the very least, it's a point of commonality, which is always helpful. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Sometimes, when people are "just asking questions", they ARE being oppositional. I think we've all been in arguments with people like that, and it can be really frustrating. When you have fringe beliefs, you may well get a lot of that, and start being trigger happy about people who are sincere in their inquiries... especially if, as I suspect, she hasn't really seen "tumors falling off" and thus didn't have a good answer for that one. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 <snip> ... I know that I find it hard to answer a challenging question ( obviously not on religion ) when I know i'm not solid on the answer and the reasoning behind the answer. Discussion can really open the ground under your feet. I know that sometimes I can deal with having my ignorance exposed through discussion, and sometimes I can't. Maybe she can't. Lots of reasons that might be. Who you surround yourself with matters as well. If someone is always around people who discourage questions, who don't ask questions of themselves - it rubs off. <snip>... We all do it, some of us more than others... :iagree: , especially with the bolded. IME, different groupings of all types -- families, work teams, faith-based organizational groups, community groups, book groups, on-line hives, etc -- have a wide range of comfort/discomfort with questions and debate and disagreement and tension that operates as a kind of group culture... in some groups there's an expectation that there will be lively debate and that's actually seen positively; in others that any degree of conflict is threatening; and most somewhere between those points... ... and of course beyond that, individuals have their own specific tolerances for both the in-the-moment disagreement or the longer term idea that a person holds a different view... Going along with that thought, most irl women's groups I've been in take overt disagreement, even polite overt disagreement, as a declaration that the disagree-er sees the disagree-ee as holding a position that is beyond acceptable boundaries - iow, overt disagreement means that the disagree-er is willing to break the relationship (such as it is) over this issue - it's not an agree-to-disagree thing (or else you wouldn't have been overtly disagreeing in the first place). Rather, acceptable disagreement involves first overtly affirming *something* worthy in what the other person said - overtly showing that we are all on the same side, that relationships are firmly in place - before moving into a positive statement of a position that is somewhat or entirely in disagreement with what the other person said, but without overtly making a point of the fact that there is disagreement. I joke with dh about "how women disagree" - saying that you totally agree, and then explain by saying the exact opposite :lol: - and it's kind of like that, sometimes, but the more I pay attention, the more I see nuances and subtleties and appreciate how it keeps the relationship at the forefront, allowing disagreement but keeping it secondary to the sense that we are all together in this. It's a learned language for me, though - I was the person obliviously overtly disagreeing left, right, and yonder, not realizing how it was taken by others - that they took it more to heart than I meant it. I figure it's a good practice to make sure I find *something* that I can see as genuinely worthy in the other person's position before disagreeing - at the very least, it's a point of commonality, which is always helpful. :lol: Yeah, that's sort of what I'm trying to get at, that different groups can have specific "cultures" of how debate / disagreement is managed. So it could be just the individual's own discomfort either with debate or with "holding" ideas in tension; or it could be the culture of her organization. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Forty-two: it took me years to learn just to say, 'uh-huh' to my MIL. She took direct, polite disagreement as attack. It would never have occurred to me to agree then disagree. She was from Texas, if that makes a difference. Interesting. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Interesting discussion. I know from personal experience that it can happen when you aren't really sure if your viewpoint. Like you have an idea but it's not fully resolved in your mind. Also I do it sometimes when I know the discussion will take a long time and I just don't have the time to do it justice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I've seen this usually in poorly catechized people who cannot defend their faith with anything other than "because xyz authority says so." Those people who have invested the time and have the interest in apologetics usually welcome questions. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I think, in her situation, it likely goes along with "because mom/dad said so" (rather than giving reasons for something). Just replace mom/dad with God/pastor. There really are two sets of closed minds out there as it applies to religion. God said it, I believe it, that settles it. (As per their interpretation, of course.) & I don't believe in God, therefore it can't be true, and that settles it. All the rest in between tend to be open to questioning/thoughts/discussing IF it's a true inquisitive discussion with no condemnation. However, many in this group (myself included) will refrain from getting into debates with anyone 'cause those get old very, very quickly. We really only like discussions with those who are open to ideas and willing to truly discuss them, not "let me prove you're wrong with any thought you have" situations. I'd be really curious to know what your SIL saw IRL and would love to ask her about it (even being skeptical myself), but it sure wouldn't be worth a debate. Politic discussions work the same way - just replace belief/non-belief with political parties of choice and you get the same thing with mindset options. I suspect this is why many feel it's not a good idea to discuss politics or religion! But it really is so much fun when you can discuss them with open minded people willing to look at all possibilities in a deeper frame of mine - putting out pros and cons from any one thought. There can be oodles of rabbit trails and what ifs. Most of these discussions end up without answers, of course, but give the brain a ton to ponder. That's what makes them fun! Sorry your SIL isn't open, but I wouldn't push it. I'd just continue on living my own life with my own beliefs. She's entitled to hers too. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I would have no patience with someone who believed in the miracle of tumors just 'falling off', but that's just me. I know that I find it hard to answer a challenging question ( obviously not on religion ) when I know i'm not solid on the answer and the reasoning behind the answer. Discussion can really open the ground under your feet. I know that sometimes I can deal with having my ignorance exposed through discussion, and sometimes I can't. Maybe she can't. Lots of reasons that might be. Who you surround yourself with matters as well. If someone is always around people who discourage questions, who don't ask questions of themselves - it rubs off. I guess your questions about how she knows the miracle of tumors falling off is real caught her off guard - she probably doesn't have an explanation - and that made her feel defensive. And rather than say 'Actually, that's a good question. No, I haven't seen a tumor fall off' and open herself to the idea that hey! maybe I don't know The Truth about this, she deflected her discomfort to you. We all do it, some of us more than others... Nope, not just you. I know I become more cynical every day, but when I read that men like Haage and Copeland have "plants" who come forward, who don't really have anything wrong with them, just for "show," it make me want to scream. And when one of our local pastors was called out for having strategically placed plants stand up and come forward during altar calls so that it would look like he "saves" more than he does, and would encourage others to come forward to increase "his" numbers, the cynic in me comes roaring up. And then I get ANGRY at these folks for telling others they aren't really saved or don't have enough faith and that is why they are still in a wheelchair, or not completely healed, etc.....these same folks DO DIE eventually, and not always peacefully in their sleep. I have many, many other issues with the faith healing movement and the charismatic movement in general. And I DO believe God can heal. I know my statements may seem like I don't, but I absolutely do believe God can do anything. But when we demand it, and feel entitled to it, and call each other names because some don't receive it, and decide what God should do, I have a problem with it. Sorry, a little rant there. ULTIMATELY, you cannot argue with people like this. It is pointless. They blindly believe what they are going to believe. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I don't see this as a Christian thing, or related to religion at all. Some people are just that way: they consider any questions about what they think/believe/do to be a challenge. I've seen it in real life and on message boards, including this one, on all sorts of topics. Once I expressed surprise that a local private school with a strict dress code allowed kids to dye their hair unnatural colors, such as blue. I was just surprised. The person with whom I was talking went off on me in a way that was shocking to me, going on about it being the only opportunity to show any individuality, etc. I had to reiterate that I wasn't disapproving, just surprised. She could not tell the difference. I suppose it's possible that people with non-mainstream religious views get tired, and thus defensive, of being questioned all the time. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) I'm just wondering if anyone else has encountered this...my sister in law and the rest of her church (it seems from my encounters with them) are very closed to any type of questions, even if asked in the most respectful way possible. She is part of a very charismatic Christian church that came out of Oral Robert's University. Whenever she meets people who disagree or ask why she believes something she will completely avoid the question and accuses them of arguing and of causing division in the church (usually these question center around miracles, healing and women in ministry). An acquaintance of mine graduated from Oral Roberts. She once told me that the norm there was to really not question the professors much at all, which really disturbed me. It was very much a "do it our way or leave" school, and she got so far into that mindset that it caused problems for years afterwards. I don't know if she was that way before. Over the years I've clashed with periodically because she's in the camp that "proper Christian women" don't work for pay, and I always have. Frankly I mostly steer clear of her, but I also stand up for my beliefs if I'm challenged. That sort of thing is scary to me. How can you be strong in your beliefs without questioning? Why can't there be differences? Edited January 10, 2016 by G5052 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisIsTheDay Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I don't see this as a Christian thing, or related to religion at all. Some people are just that way: they consider any questions about what they think/believe/do to be a challenge. I've seen it in real life and on message boards, including this one, on all sorts of topics. :iagree: Exactly. I don't think this has as much to do with religion as it has to do with personality. The topic is not so relevant. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I don't see this as a Christian thing, or related to religion at all. Some people are just that way: they consider any questions about what they think/believe/do to be a challenge. I've seen it in real life and on message boards, including this one, on all sorts of topics. Ditto. Diets, educational paths, body choices, housing choices... It's really difficult for some to imagine there can be more than one way of doing things and more than one can be correct. These folks seem to have a view that anyone with intelligence will (or should) always agree with them. Reasons may or may not be necessary, but if reasons are there, their view is the only correct way of looking at those reasons, of course. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I don't see this as a Christian thing, or related to religion at all. Some people are just that way: they consider any questions about what they think/believe/do to be a challenge. I've seen it in real life and on message boards, including this one, on all sorts of topics. Yes, I think you're right. Sadly, when you get a whole church leadership team that is like this, and it then funnels down to the congregation and the the church in general is like this, it is doubly maddening. A church should be one of the safest places to ask your questions and have discussions about faith, even if they are preposterous. (As long as it is done respectfully, of course.) I would stay clear of a church (or any group) like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loowit Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I think that there is no one reason for this. I think a reason could be a self defense mechanism. They are tired of be ridiculed for beliefs outside of the mainstream, and while your questions may seem innocent to you they may not sound that way to the listener. I have learned not to discuss some of my more non-mainstream beliefs with others because I have found that a lot of times their "innocent questions" are really made to try to make me look stupid, not to actually discuss the topic. I welcome healthy debate, I do not welcome put downs and ridicule. But sadly there are people, not just Christians, who do not want to question their faith or have their faith questioned. They prefer to just live in their happy bubble and not have people poking at it. They believe it, whatever it is, because they grew up that way, where told it by someone they trust, etc and see no reason to really question what they believe. I think in many cases they would like to just state what they believe and have others just nod and smile and move on with life. Many times i don't think they want to even know that others disagree. I grew up in a spiritually abusive church where the pastor was not to be questioned. He preached that we should read the Bible for ourselves and see if he was wrong, but then if anyone disagreed they would face his wrath. It was more pleasant to just go along and not make waves. It wasn't until I met DH, who was in Bible college studying youth ministry at the time, that I really began to break down what I believed and build it back up with a firm foundation. I attended Bible college for a year and found that a majority of professors welcomed questions and loved lively debate. This was a very conservative college with a strict dress code and such, but they very much promoted being able to give an answer for your faith. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaeFlowers Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) I would have no patience with someone who believed in the miracle of tumors just 'falling off', but that's just me. I know that I find it hard to answer a challenging question ( obviously not on religion ) when I know i'm not solid on the answer and the reasoning behind the answer. Discussion can really open the ground under your feet. I know that sometimes I can deal with having my ignorance exposed through discussion, and sometimes I can't. Maybe she can't. Lots of reasons that might be. Who you surround yourself with matters as well. If someone is always around people who discourage questions, who don't ask questions of themselves - it rubs off. I guess your questions about how she knows the miracle of tumors falling off is real caught her off guard - she probably doesn't have an explanation - and that made her feel defensive. And rather than say 'Actually, that's a good question. No, I haven't seen a tumor fall off' and open herself to the idea that hey! maybe I don't know The Truth about this, she deflected her discomfort to you. We all do it, some of us more than others... I don't know how to bold on my phone, but I think the second paragraph is likely true. I know someone who gets very defensive over religious questions of any sort. They told me one day that it was because they couldn't back it up. They were more annoyed with the fact that they couldn't answer than the fact that I asked. Sometimes it's the church that discourages questioning (highly authoritative). Sometimes it's just the person and they are inclined to accept things as they are and trust authority. If the preacher says so, it must be true. That's not always a bad trait though. Sometimes I annoy myself with my questioning. Edited January 10, 2016 by MaeFlowers 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam in CT Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 I don't know how to bold on my phone, but I think the second paragraph is likely true. I know someone who gets very defensive over religious questions of any sort. They told me one day that it was because they couldn't back it up. They were more annoyed with the fact that they couldn't answer than the fact that I asked. Sometimes it's the church that discourages questioning (highly authoritative). Sometimes it's just the person and they are inclined to accept things as they are and trust authority. If the preacher says so, it must be true. That's not always a bad trait though. Sometimes I annoy myself with my questioning. :lol: Actually, this happens to me at least once pretty much every day. Oh well. What're you going to do. I am who I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 As a Christian, I find that there are whole swaths of believers (and churches!) who are anti-intellectual as far as apologetics (you know, having a reason behind what you believe and being able to defend it in some way) goes and it's usually because they have bought into the idea perpetuated by BOTH society at large and even the church itself that faith = belief without questioning. Faith and reason are presented as opposites SO much. There are many who think it is not faithful to ask questions and certainly not to have doubts. Thinking critically about our faith does not make us critical (in the negative sense) of our faith! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 I think that one only needs to look at one of the many threads where a particular poster asks questions about xianity and they will find people who cannot handle questions about their faith. I don't believe that questions are bad but many people do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 As a Christian, I don't mind questions, as long as they're genuine questions and not veiled tricks to drag me into a debate. I also ask a lot of questions. I have a coworker who's Lutheran and I've asked him a lot of questions and he didn't mind at all. As it's been stated above in the thread, I think people get defensive over questions because they're insulted anyone would dare ask, or they can't back anything up, or their faith is so shaky that questions that force them to examine their beliefs might shatter their faith system and no one wants to deal with that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 I don't know how to bold on my phone, but I think the second paragraph is likely true. I know someone who gets very defensive over religious questions of any sort. They told me one day that it was because they couldn't back it up. They were more annoyed with the fact that they couldn't answer than the fact that I asked. Sometimes it's the church that discourages questioning (highly authoritative). Sometimes it's just the person and they are inclined to accept things as they are and trust authority. If the preacher says so, it must be true. That's not always a bad trait though. Sometimes I annoy myself with my questioning. Most people make decisions from the primitive/reptilian, intuitive/emotionally-driven part of the brain. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaeFlowers Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Most people make decisions from the primitive/reptilian, intuitive/emotionally-driven part of the brain. Religion and faith are very intuitive and emotional anyway. Add to that the fact that faith is very personal and (for some) it can easily become a personal attack that hits to the core. Emotional responses make sense. (I'm not saying that faith is not logical so please do not read that into my post.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 :iagree: Exactly. I don't think this has as much to do with religion as it has to do with personality. The topic is not so relevant. Yup. I was raised in the same church as my mother, in the same state as my mother, around the same people as my mother, by my mother. It drives my sisters and me batty that she absolutely refuses to participate in any type of "challenging" conversation. It could be religion or politics, or it could be whether or not babies need hats or which brand of cat food is best or how awesome fuzzy socks are or are not. It's rare for her to even state what she thinks. But the second someone says, "But-" she'll leave the room. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 :iagree: Exactly. I don't think this has as much to do with religion as it has to do with personality. The topic is not so relevant. Yes, I have a relative who is the same way with politics. Just politics though, and we have a great relationship otherwise. As I often tell my teens, sometimes you just have to accept people as they are and don't push it. Within boundaries of course. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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