Weight loss - some honest data to consider

[Guest]

I don't equate CICO with fat-shaming. But I do think it gives *some* people a sense of feeling justified in blaming people for their own obesity. This can even happen with doctors. Here's a really good TED Talk in which one doctor very bravely admits to having treated an obese patient with less compassion, because he felt that she brought her diseases upon herself.

 

http://youtu.be/UMhLBPPtlrY

Peter is great, he has done some excellent research. I also like the other Peter (Hyperlipid) veery much :)

[Scarlett]

I eat and eat and eat. For me it's an anesthetic during stress. I've never been too stressed to eat. In fact stress ratchets up my appetite horribly.

 

We are not all the same. And bodies don't respond the same to the same stimuli. I wish I went anorexic with stress, but I'm the opposite. I've never experienced that in my life - the worst traumas made me a bottomless pit :(

Well I will have to say I have learned something today.

 

And yes Martha I do go into work mode. I remember years ago, when my then husband wasn't coming home at night, I would go into hyper cleaning mode. On my hands and knees scrubbing every inch of the house.

[Murphy101]

Well I will have to say I have learned something today.

 

And yes Martha I do go into work mode. I remember years ago, when my then husband wasn't coming home at night, I would go into hyper cleaning mode. On my hands and knees scrubbing every inch of the house.

I was surprised someone didn't know this, so I learned something too. There's a reason it's traditional to bring food to people grieving or otherwise stressed and upset. There's a lot of eating during those times. Those who don't stress eat are the exception, not the rule. Most people just don't notice bc they are usually doing the dishes. ;)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Would you care to elaborate?

 

I see a vastly larger variety of foods in stores available now than as a kid. Whereas, growing up, we had apples, carrots and cabbage in winter, there is now a tremendous variety of produce to select from. Where my parents and grandparents went through periods of famine during their lives, there is now an immense supply of food available to most people (yes, I know about poverty, that's why I said "most"). Compared to most places in the world, the variety of foods available to an American is absolutely staggering.

So, our food supply should allow us to choose, and make it much easier, to be better and more healthfully nourished than generations before.

 

I agree. It's difficult for people to understand that they need these whole foods in the first place, or to take the time to learn how to prepare them, but the food is there for most of us.

 

When my family is really scraping the bottom of the barrel, grocery moneywise, we turn to 100% single-ingredient foods when possible for two reasons:

 

1. It really is cheaper to fill up on beans, oats, greens, potatoes, olive oil, a few nuts and seeds, bulk-purchased meat, and fruit in season than to choose the foods we've been told are the only  foods poor people can afford. I am privileged to have transportation to the market, knowledge of how to cook these foods without stress, utilities and a kitchen, so the cost savings works for me.

 

2. The health benefits of a natural-foods diet are the reason we can afford to be poor, during those times. We're nourished for work and protected from illness. Anytime I ever tried to turn to "affordable" less nutritious food due to money concerns, our health tanked. Fast.

 

I disagree with whoever said that the quality of our produce has fallen and that's part of why the nation is overweight. In the first place, fresh garden produce is not the food that people are overeating. Secondly, I am no chemical scientist but is it not true that a carrot is a carrot? That if the soil lacked the nutrients to grow a carrot, you'd not have a carrot? I'm not speaking of chemically treated, genetically modified produce here, but of organic or backyard garden crops.

[displace]

Yet another reason to stick with whole, unprocessed foods as much as possible. ;)

Yes! And a contradictory point I didn't want to mention in the same post: the calorie count for whole type foods and raw foods is likely overestimated. So a generic calorie guess for almonds being 120 cal, in actuality they may only be 100 calories because the calorie estimates are old and based more on processed foods. It takes our body more energy to break down whole and raw foods than estimated from calorie counts.

[Pawz4me]

I was surprised someone didn't know this, so I learned something too. There's a reason it's traditional to bring food to people grieving or otherwise stressed and upset. There's a lot of eating during those times. Those who don't stress eat are the exception, not the rule. Most people just don't notice bc they are usually doing the dishes. ;)

 

Interesting.

 

I'm one who can't eat anything when stressed.

 

I always assumed the tradition of bringing food was because no one really wanted to eat and so bringing food would tempt them.  :lol:

 

Plus I've always thought it was a holdover from earlier times, before there were grocery stores and restaurants everywhere, and just about everything had to be made at home from scratch and so was fairly labor intensive. To save the grieving/stressed person a lot of time and effort.

[historically accurate]

I was surprised someone didn't know this, so I learned something too. There's a reason it's traditional to bring food to people grieving or otherwise stressed and upset. There's a lot of eating during those times. Those who don't stress eat are the exception, not the rule. Most people just don't notice bc they are usually doing the dishes. ;)

 

And I was always taught that taking food is because family usually comes in from out of town and it keeps the stressed hostess from having to cook. I come from a family of non-cookers, so maybe that colored their beliefs. 

 

 

[alisoncooks]

I eat and eat and eat. For me it's an anesthetic during stress. I've never been too stressed to eat. In fact stress ratchets up my appetite horribly.

 

We are not all the same. And bodies don't respond the same to the same stimuli. I wish I went anorexic with stress, but I'm the opposite. I've never experienced that in my life - the worst traumas made me a bottomless pit :(

 

I'm with you, unfortunately.  I've gained 20 pounds (on top of my already high weight) since DH was dx with cancer in November...

[Carol in Cal.]

1. It really is cheaper to fill up on beans, oats, greens, potatoes, olive oil, a few nuts and seeds, bulk-purchased meat, and fruit in season than to choose the foods we've been told are the only  foods poor people can afford. I am privileged to have transportation to the market, knowledge of how to cook these foods without stress, utilities and a kitchen, so the cost savings works for me.

 

See, exactly.  Although in my family it's more challenging.  DH's parents have diabetes so he has to watch carbs.  DD is vegetarian.  So we are more limited than most in the overlap between our dietary needs and low cost whole foods, unless we eat separate foods.

 

I disagree with whoever said that the quality of our produce has fallen and that's part of why the nation is overweight. In the first place, fresh garden produce is not the food that people are overeating. Secondly, I am no chemical scientist but is it not true that a carrot is a carrot? That if the soil lacked the nutrients to grow a carrot, you'd not have a carrot? I'm not speaking of chemically treated, genetically modified produce here, but of organic or backyard garden crops.

There is actually quite a bit of evidence for this.  Vitamin and mineral contents of standard fruits and vegetables are measurably lower now than in the 1940s and 1950s.  I believe that organic produce is mostly the same as ever in nutritional content.  Micronutrients are really important, and they are not present to the same extent as they used to be in conventionally grown food.  So if people garden and/or can purchase organic produce they don't see this decline, but most people do.

[Scarlett]

Interesting.

 

I'm one who can't eat anything when stressed.

 

I always assumed the tradition of bringing food was because no one really wanted to eat and so bringing food would tempt them. :lol:

 

Plus I've always thought it was a holdover from earlier times, before there were grocery stores and restaurants everywhere, and just about everything had to be made at home from scratch and so was fairly labor intensive. To save the grieving/stressed person a lot of time and effort.

Yes this is what I've always thought too.

[Guest]

I'm with you, unfortunately. I've gained 20 pounds (on top of my already high weight) since DH was dx with cancer in November...

I'm sorry about your husband, I hope he is doing well with his treatment. Miscarriages are guaranteed to put at least ten pounds on me. I'm not usually an emotional eater, but I tend to eat and eat and eat for about a week until I'm done grieving actively. My appetite naturally ratchets back down after the worst passes.

 

I also clean like a crazy woman when I'm stressed or alone. So I alternate eating and cleaning. No sleeping. I'm weird!

[KathyBC]

Haven't read all the replies. I do know I have read very detailed diet plans on various threads over the years. I don't recall reading equally detailed "calories out/moving more" plans. But I may just have missed them.

[creekland]

I'm with you, unfortunately.  I've gained 20 pounds (on top of my already high weight) since DH was dx with cancer in November...

 

:grouphug:  I wish there were more I could offer, but I'm only gleaning from this thread - I'm not really on the educated side of how to help.

[purplejackmama]

I hope this thread has opened minds that things aren't nearly as black/white as you believe. What works for some (calories in/out) clearly don't work for others. Just learning that people deal with stress in different ways seems like an eye opener for some. I'm surprised that people are surprised by this. ;)

[Katy]

I've done it too. Not openly, but in my own mind wondered why they wouldn't do something to help themselves. Well, actually, I have known one diabetic who refused to do anything to help himself, and he died young. But most have tried. And tried, and tried. And some of them have tried following really bad advice, and gotten worse. Some of them have tried following that bad advice, and simply given up because it didn't help much for the amount of effort it required.

 

:grouphug: You mentioned that your numbers got worse when doing everything right. Have you found something that works?

 

 

Yes.  Sort of.  I haven't reversed it but my last A1C was so low my doctor said to just keep doing what I'm doing, and I've been slowly losing weight.  Skip to the last paragraph for the solution, the ones in the middle if you're interested in everything I tried.

 

When I got diagnosed a lot of people here suggested Dr Bernstein's program.  I went whole-hog.  I got a digital food scale and made sure I didn't have more than the specified grams of carbs at any meals, and I was eating about 800 calories a day.  I stuck to it religiously for 6 weeks.  Numbers got worse.  I went down to purely ketogenic zero carbs.  About 400 calories a day. Numbers got worse.  I stuck to that for two weeks, thinking I was just draining my liver of stored glycogen or something.  Fasting number went up to 296.

 

I was totally frustrated and craving carbs.  I cheated and ate 2 bowls of white rice with rice vinegar, soy sauce, and about a pound bag of frozen stir fry veggies for dinner.  I can't even remember if there were beans or any source of protein there, but there wasn't any meat.  Finally something tangy.   I ignored the rising blood pressure feeling that indicates rising blood sugar to me and went to bed in a carb daze, figuring if the number went as high as I thought it would when I woke up in the middle of the night I'd go to the hospital and end up on insulin the next day. Instead I slept through the night instead of getting up to pee. The next morning my fasting number was down to 186.  I was totally confused.  I went back to Bernstein but added more veggies, basically a plateful at every meal instead of carefully counting carbs.  Things seemed to steady.  At one point I cheated and ate a bag full of Dove Chocolate Covered Blueberries.  Numbers went down.  It was really weird.  I posted something here about it.

 

My solution started with Katie's weight loss surgery thread.  I clicked through to her blog and from that to some link she had about bariatric surgery and food options.  I was thinking no matter what I am not going to die from diabetes complications, and if surgery will reverse it maybe that's what I'll have to do.  I realized the food options are really fairly moderate about carbs and protein, with pretty low fat and very low saturated fat.  The times that I cheated the things I ate were low in saturated fat.  Theorized that maybe I could handle more carbs but cannot handle saturated fat at all?  Then I realized that when my grandfather got diagnosed ten years prior I sent him a book an instructor in nursing school recommended that basically said some people's diabetes will reverse if they cut out saturated fat. Like, genetically some people have less insulin receptors in some classes of cells, those receptors get blocked by saturated fat due to glycogen or some sort of organic chemistry process I don't recall the details of.  I realized the side of the family that the MODY diabetes comes from (both sides have it, unfortunately) has a significant amount of native American heritage.   I remembered reading something else in a physiology class in nursing school about how some populations can handle some carbs but not others and that native americans with diabetes tend to do best on low fat moderate protein, high vegetable diets.  I started experimenting with that. I found I have to limit dairy and saturated fat greatly.  I can have all the carbs from vegetables that I want, even from berries, but other sources of carbs tend to increase my blood sugar too much.  Rice is bad.  I do okay on field corn options, I don't seem to have trouble with fajitas in corn tortillas and even tortilla chips if we go out to eat.  Saturated fat is bad.  Dairy options will increase my blood sugar by more than twice what you might expect from the carb count alone.

 

 

 

Ultimately what seems to work best for me is high protein, low fat, and very high vegetables.  It looks something like this:

• 7am:  spinach omelet with salsa -1/2 c egg whites and some parsley cooked in a ceramic nonstick pan sprayed with nonstick spray first.  Set stove to 7/10, cover egg whites with lid.  Set timer for 5 minutes. In mean time pour 1 1/2 c frozen chopped spinach into a microwavable bowl, use light salt for flavoring (regular salt is okay too, but I tracked the nutrients and this diet is a little low in potassium without the lite salt.  Fill egg whites with spinach, maybe a tiny bit of cheese if I have some on hand and have decent numbers recently.  Close omelet, transfer to plate, Cover with at least 1/4 c salsa (sugar and fat free).
• 10am: pumpkin smoothie - 1 c crushed ice, 1 scoop vanilla whey protein powder,  about 1 c unsweetened almond milk, 1/3 can canned pumpkin, liquid sweetener that Bernstein recommends, maybe a little vanilla, 2 T pumpkin pie spice (homemade because I was going through it so fast this was too expensive otherwise).
• 1pm and 6pm: chicken or fish with a whole pound of veggies - about 6oz of baked chicken or fish with a whole pound of frozen veggies (usually green beans or broccoli/cauliflower because they are cheap at Sam's Club, but anything without carrots is okay) with the juice from half a lemon or lime.  I also measure 1 oz of raw sunflower seeds per day and top the veggies with about half the seeds for each meal for vitamin E.
• Snack - usually around 3:  1 1/2 c frozen wild blueberries with 2T cream.

That is a ton of food volume wise.  I have to force it down because I don't want to eat that much except for the berries.  It covers the whole RDA except for vitamin D without the blueberries, and with the snack it's about 1500 calories.  If I don't force the veggies or I skip a meal my blood sugar gets too low, I get shaky, and end up eating something I shouldn't.  My A1C was down to below 6, my doctor said to keep doing what I'm doing.  I also went on extended release metformin, though that doesn't seem to affect anything but maybe my fasting numbers in the morning. I haven't been exercising as much as I did before due to some other factors in the family but my numbers are better.

 

Edited for clarity.

[Scarlett]

I hope this thread has opened minds that things aren't nearly as black/white as you believe. What works for some (calories in/out) clearly don't work for others. Just learning that people deal with stress in different ways seems like an eye opener for some. I'm surprised that people are surprised by this. ;)

Well yeah. When I have extreme stress I can't eat a bite. But obviously others are the exact opposite.

[Wheres Toto]

I will lose weight when super-stressed IF I live alone.  It happened after my divorce, whenever I didn't have my daughter.  I would escape by reading and not want to be bothered cooking or finding food.   But, if someone else is cooking this doesn't work.  

[ktgrok]

 That does sound like a bariatric patient diet. I think you meant pumpkin, not spinach, in your pumpkin smoothie though :)

 

Oh, and yes, for some people dairy acts almost hormonally on insulin. 

Yes.  Sort of.  I haven't reversed it but my last A1C was so low my doctor said to just keep doing what I'm doing, and I've been slowly losing weight.  Skip to the last paragraph for the solution, the ones in the middle if you're interested in everything I tried.

 

When I got diagnosed a lot of people here suggested Dr Bernstein's program.  I went whole-hog.  I got a digital food scale and made sure I didn't have more than the specified grams of carbs at any meals, and I was eating about 800 calories a day.  I stuck to it religiously for 6 weeks.  Numbers got worse.  I went down to purely ketogenic zero carbs.  About 400 calories a day. Numbers got worse.  I stuck to that for two weeks, thinking I was just draining my liver of stored glycogen or something.  Fasting number went up to 296.

 

I was totally frustrated and craving carbs.  I cheated and ate 2 bowls of white rice with rice vinegar, soy sauce, and about a pound bag of frozen stir fry veggies for dinner.  I can't even remember if there were beans or any source of protein there, but there wasn't any meat.  Finally something tangy.   I ignored the rising blood pressure feeling that indicates rising blood sugar to me and went to bed in a carb daze, figuring if the number went as high as I thought it would when I woke up in the middle of the night I'd go to the hospital and end up on insulin the next day. Instead I slept through the night instead of getting up to pee. The next morning my fasting number was down to 186.  I was totally confused.  I went back to Bernstein but added more veggies, basically a plateful at every meal instead of carefully counting carbs.  Things seemed to steady.  At one point I cheated and ate a bag full of Dove Chocolate Covered Blueberries.  Numbers went down.  It was really weird.  I posted something here about it.

 

My solution started with Katie's weight loss surgery thread.  I clicked through to her blog and from that to some link she had about bariatric surgery and food options.  I was thinking no matter what I am not going to die from diabetes complications, and if surgery will reverse it maybe that's what I'll have to do.  I realized the food options are really fairly moderate about carbs and protein, with pretty low fat and very low saturated fat.  The times that I cheated the things I ate were low in saturated fat.  Theorized that maybe I could handle more carbs but cannot handle saturated fat at all?  Then I realized that when my grandfather got diagnosed ten years prior I sent him a book an instructor in nursing school recommended that basically said some people's diabetes will reverse if they cut out saturated fat. Like, genetically some people have less insulin receptors in some classes of cells, those receptors get blocked by saturated fat due to glycogen or some sort of organic chemistry process I don't recall the details of.  I realized the side of the family that the MODY diabetes comes from (both sides have it, unfortunately) has a significant amount of native American heritage.   I remembered reading something else in a physiology class in nursing school about how some populations can handle some carbs but not others and that nativeamericans with diabetes tend to do best on low fat moderate protein, high vegetable diets.  I started experimenting with that. I found I have to limit dairy and saturated fat greatly.  I can have all the carbs from vegetables that I want, even from berries, but other sources of carbs tend to increase my blood sugar too much.  Rice is bad.  I do okay on field corn options, I don't seem to have trouble with fajitas in corn tortillas and even tortilla chips if we go out to eat.  Saturated fat is bad.  Dairy options will increase my blood sugar by more than twice what you might expect from the carb count alone.

 

 

 

Ultimately what seems to work best for me is high protein, low fat, and very high vegetables.  It looks something like this:

• 7am:  spinach omelet with salsa -1/2 c egg whites and some parsley cooked in a ceramic nonstick pan sprayed with nonstick spray first.  Set stove to 7/10, cover egg whites with lid.  Set timer for 5 minutes. In mean time pour 1 1/2 c frozen chopped spinach into a microwavable bowl, use light salt for flavoring (regular salt is okay too, but I tracked the nutrients and this diet is a little low in potassium without the lite salt.  Fill egg whites with spinach, maybe a tiny bit of cheese if I have some on hand and have decent numbers recently.  Close omelet, transfer to plate, Cover with at least 1/4 c salsa (sugar and fat free).
• 10am: pumpkin smoothie - 1 c crushed ice, 1 scoop vanilla whey protein powder,  about 1 c unsweetened almond milk, 1/3 can canned spinach, liquid sweetener that Bernstein recommends, maybe a little vanilla, 2 T pumpkin pie spice (homemade because I was going through it so fast this was too expensive otherwise).
• 1pm and 6pm: chicken or fish with a whole pound of veggies - about 6oz of baked chicken or fish with a whole pound of frozen veggies (usually green beans or broccoli/cauliflower because they are cheap at Sam's Club, but anything without carrots is okay) with the juice from half a lemon or lime.  I also measure 1 oz of raw sunflower seeds per day and top the veggies with about half the seeds for each meal for vitamin E.
• Snack - usually around 3:  1 1/2 c frozen wild blueberries with 2T cream.

That is a ton of food volume wise.  I have to force it down because I don't want to eat that much except for the berries.  It covers the whole RDA except for vitamin D without the blueberries, and with the snack it's about 1500 calories.  If I don't force the veggies or I skip a meal my blood sugar gets too low, I get shaky, and end up eating something I shouldn't.  My A1C was down to below 6, my doctor said to keep doing what I'm doing.  I also went on extended release metformin, though that doesn't seem to affect anything but maybe my fasting numbers in the morning. I haven't been exercising as much as I did before due to some other factors in the family but my numbers are better.

 

Edited for clarity.

 

[Greta]

Yes. Sort of. I haven't reversed it but my last A1C was so low my doctor said to just keep doing what I'm doing, and I've been slowly losing weight. Skip to the last paragraph for the solution, the ones in the middle if you're interested in everything I tried.

 

When I got diagnosed a lot of people here suggested Dr Bernstein's program. I went whole-hog. I got a digital food scale and made sure I didn't have more than the specified grams of carbs at any meals, and I was eating about 800 calories a day. I stuck to it religiously for 6 weeks. Numbers got worse. I went down to purely ketogenic zero carbs. About 400 calories a day. Numbers got worse. I stuck to that for two weeks, thinking I was just draining my liver of stored glycogen or something. Fasting number went up to 296.

 

I was totally frustrated and craving carbs. I cheated and ate 2 bowls of white rice with rice vinegar, soy sauce, and about a pound bag of frozen stir fry veggies for dinner. I can't even remember if there were beans or any source of protein there, but there wasn't any meat. Finally something tangy. I ignored the rising blood pressure feeling that indicates rising blood sugar to me and went to bed in a carb daze, figuring if the number went as high as I thought it would when I woke up in the middle of the night I'd go to the hospital and end up on insulin the next day. Instead I slept through the night instead of getting up to pee. The next morning my fasting number was down to 186. I was totally confused. I went back to Bernstein but added more veggies, basically a plateful at every meal instead of carefully counting carbs. Things seemed to steady. At one point I cheated and ate a bag full of Dove Chocolate Covered Blueberries. Numbers went down. It was really weird. I posted something here about it.

 

My solution started with Katie's weight loss surgery thread. I clicked through to her blog and from that to some link she had about bariatric surgery and food options. I was thinking no matter what I am not going to die from diabetes complications, and if surgery will reverse it maybe that's what I'll have to do. I realized the food options are really fairly moderate about carbs and protein, with pretty low fat and very low saturated fat. The times that I cheated the things I ate were low in saturated fat. Theorized that maybe I could handle more carbs but cannot handle saturated fat at all? Then I realized that when my grandfather got diagnosed ten years prior I sent him a book an instructor in nursing school recommended that basically said some people's diabetes will reverse if they cut out saturated fat. Like, genetically some people have less insulin receptors in some classes of cells, those receptors get blocked by saturated fat due to glycogen or some sort of organic chemistry process I don't recall the details of. I realized the side of the family that the MODY diabetes comes from (both sides have it, unfortunately) has a significant amount of native American heritage. I remembered reading something else in a physiology class in nursing school about how some populations can handle some carbs but not others and that native americans with diabetes tend to do best on low fat moderate protein, high vegetable diets. I started experimenting with that. I found I have to limit dairy and saturated fat greatly. I can have all the carbs from vegetables that I want, even from berries, but other sources of carbs tend to increase my blood sugar too much. Rice is bad. I do okay on field corn options, I don't seem to have trouble with fajitas in corn tortillas and even tortilla chips if we go out to eat. Saturated fat is bad. Dairy options will increase my blood sugar by more than twice what you might expect from the carb count alone.

 

 

 

Ultimately what seems to work best for me is high protein, low fat, and very high vegetables. It looks something like this:

• 7am: spinach omelet with salsa -1/2 c egg whites and some parsley cooked in a ceramic nonstick pan sprayed with nonstick spray first. Set stove to 7/10, cover egg whites with lid. Set timer for 5 minutes. In mean time pour 1 1/2 c frozen chopped spinach into a microwavable bowl, use light salt for flavoring (regular salt is okay too, but I tracked the nutrients and this diet is a little low in potassium without the lite salt. Fill egg whites with spinach, maybe a tiny bit of cheese if I have some on hand and have decent numbers recently. Close omelet, transfer to plate, Cover with at least 1/4 c salsa (sugar and fat free).
• 10am: pumpkin smoothie - 1 c crushed ice, 1 scoop vanilla whey protein powder, about 1 c unsweetened almond milk, 1/3 can canned spinach, liquid sweetener that Bernstein recommends, maybe a little vanilla, 2 T pumpkin pie spice (homemade because I was going through it so fast this was too expensive otherwise).
• 1pm and 6pm: chicken or fish with a whole pound of veggies - about 6oz of baked chicken or fish with a whole pound of frozen veggies (usually green beans or broccoli/cauliflower because they are cheap at Sam's Club, but anything without carrots is okay) with the juice from half a lemon or lime. I also measure 1 oz of raw sunflower seeds per day and top the veggies with about half the seeds for each meal for vitamin E.
• Snack - usually around 3: 1 1/2 c frozen wild blueberries with 2T cream.

That is a ton of food volume wise. I have to force it down because I don't want to eat that much except for the berries. It covers the whole RDA except for vitamin D without the blueberries, and with the snack it's about 1500 calories. If I don't force the veggies or I skip a meal my blood sugar gets too low, I get shaky, and end up eating something I shouldn't. My A1C was down to below 6, my doctor said to keep doing what I'm doing. I also went on extended release metformin, though that doesn't seem to affect anything but maybe my fasting numbers in the morning. I haven't been exercising as much as I did before due to some other factors in the family but my numbers are better.

 

Edited for clarity.

Oh, yes, I remember the Dove chocolate covered blueberries! I can't remember which thread that was (the LC support thread?) but I do recall it. I remember feeling at a loss to explain it!

 

Wow, I had no idea that some diabetics were that sensitive to saturated fat! It never ceases to amaze me how different people can be. I am not diabetic, just insulin resistant (reactive hypoglycemia, some post-prandial numbers in the pre-diabetic range) but I do really well with high levels of saturated fat. It keeps my blood sugar rock steady if I eat moderate protein and high fat. But I'm of Western European descent. Interesting to think how different the dietary needs of different races might be.

 

Well, this stuff is fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing your diet and how you discovered it. It does seem to take trial and error for most of us. But it sounds like your trial was fairly brutal.

[Katy]

 That does sound like a bariatric patient diet. I think you meant pumpkin, not spinach, in your pumpkin smoothie though :)

 

Oh, and yes, for some people dairy acts almost hormonally on insulin. 

 

Thanks, I fixed that.  I'm so thankful for you posting that thread about surgery and the blog too...  I feel a little like you saved my life.  :hurray:

 

 

Oh, yes, I remember the Dove chocolate covered blueberries! I can't remember which thread that was (the LC support thread?) but I do recall it. I remember feeling at a loss to explain it!

 

Wow, I had no idea that some diabetics were that sensitive to saturated fat! It never ceases to amaze me how different people can be. I am not diabetic, just insulin resistant (reactive hypoglycemia, some post-prandial numbers in the pre-diabetic range) but I do really well with high levels of saturated fat. It keeps my blood sugar rock steady if I eat moderate protein and high fat. But I'm of Western European descent. Interesting to think how different the dietary needs of different races might be.

 

Well, this stuff is fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing your diet and how you discovered it. It does seem to take trial and error for most of us. But it sounds like your trial was fairly brutal.

 

Yeah, I think it's crazy too...  I'm just glad I figured out something that seems to work for me.

[purplejackmama]

Katie and Katy,

Help me understand the dairy. Why does dairy raise blood sugar in some? I've gone GF, DF, SF and was hoping to add back in some dairy, but now I'm wondering if that's a mistake.

[Katy]

Katie and Katy,

Help me understand the dairy. Why does dairy raise blood sugar in some? I've gone GF, DF, SF and was hoping to add back in some dairy, but now I'm wondering if that's a mistake.

 

Dairy has some sugar on its own.  But it also is designed to help a calf gain weight as quickly as possible, so it contains hormones such as insulin like growth factor that seem to impact some people who have insulin resistance.  Others do fine on it.

[Luckymama]

Add me to the stress-eating group. I gained 20 lbs between my mom's cancer diagnosis in June 2008 and the day I finally settled my parents' estate in June 2012.

 

I also stress-weed, which is a bit more useful ;)

[Guest]

Add me to the stress-eating group. I gained 20 lbs between my mom's cancer diagnosis in June 2008 and the day I finally settled my parents' estate in June 2012.

 

I also stress-weed, which is a bit more useful ;)

I'm a stress-starver. Moderately stressful events = zero appetite. Severely stressful events = several pounds just burn up.

 

I also become fastidious at home and will probably fixate on cleaning something I never even noticed before, like the grate on the bottom of the fridge or something.

[LucyStoner]

I don't stress eat so much as I stress drink.  And I am not talking about hitting the sauce either.  :P I am tend to, unless VERY careful, to start consuming many caffeinated, sweetened beverages when my stress goes way up.   To stay awake, to stay in go mode, to just stay alert enough to function for the people relying on me.  If anything, I replace nice meals with liquid crap.  

[6packofun]

I don't stress eat so much as I stress drink.  And I am not talking about hitting the sauce either.   :p I am tend to, unless VERY careful, to start consuming many caffeinated, sweetened beverages when my stress goes way up.   To stay awake, to stay in go mode, to just stay alert enough to function for the people relying on me.  If anything, I replace nice meals with liquid crap.  

 

Wow, I don't think I've heard anyone else ever articulate this.  Me TOO!  

 

I also think there is something about having a beverage in my hand at all times that calms my nerves and I just happen to love Dr. Pepper.   :mellow:

[Audrey]

Yea, I absolutely think changes to our food supply is part of the problem (and solution.)

:iagree: 100%

[Audrey]

Would you care to elaborate?

 

I see a vastly larger variety of foods in stores available now than as a kid. Whereas, growing up, we had apples, carrots and cabbage in winter, there is now a tremendous variety of produce to select from. Where my parents and grandparents went through periods of famine during their lives, there is now an immense supply of food available to most people (yes, I know about poverty, that's why I said "most"). Compared to most places in the world, the variety of foods available to an American is absolutely staggering.

So, our food supply should allow us to choose, and make it much easier, to be better and more healthfully nourished than generations before.

 

 

Variety of produce isn't the issue.  Certainly, more variety of produce is available than 50 years ago, but produce makes up very little of the offerings of an average N. American grocery store.  The bulk of our food supply is processed food products. 

 

And, on top of that the actual produce we eat isn't the same nutritionally or genetically as it was 50 years ago.  That's another discussion entirely, though.

[Carol in Cal.]

Dairy has some sugar on its own.  But it also is designed to help a calf gain weight as quickly as possible, so it contains hormones such as insulin like growth factor that seem to impact some people who have insulin resistance.  Others do fine on it.

I wonder whether organic milk would have the same effect or not. I'm thinking maybe not.

[regentrude]

Variety of produce isn't the issue.  Certainly, more variety of produce is available than 50 years ago, but produce makes up very little of the offerings of an average N. American grocery store.  The bulk of our food supply is processed food products. 

 

Oh, the bolded is most certainly true - but there is still such a wide variety of fresh food available that most (again, I know about food deserts, that's why "most") people have the option not to eat the processed stuff. Eating processed foods is a choice for which each person has to take responsibility, and one cannot blame the availability of such foods. You don't have to eat the stuff. Never in history had humans access to so many different healthy foods in abundance.

 

I am curious about the claims that the food supply is to blame for the rise of obesity. I would like to see some links to scientific information that shows that  - unprocessed- foods are not as nutritious today (no snark, I am really just curious).

 

 

[Katy]

I wonder whether organic milk would have the same effect or not. I'm thinking maybe not.

 

Yes, it has exactly the same effect.  All dairy I buy is added hormone free.  There are still tons of hormones naturally in dairy.  Plus, pretty much only Northern European populations evolved to rely on dairy as a survival food.  Native Americans did not consume dairy and their health went immediately down hill when they started to switch from a vegetable and game meat to european style diet.

 

I am mostly white- blonde hair, blue eyes, but I think my genetics from my dad's side that relate to diabetes are pretty strongly native american because I can track MODY through my great grandparents and I know their ancestry.

[KathyBC]

For me, it turned out that I not only have to reduce the number of calories I take in, I also had to SERIOUSLY increase the intensity and amount of my exercise in order to see any effect at all. Way, way more than other women with my same age/build.

Details?

[LisaKinVA]

All I want to know is why, when we hit peri-menopause, and our bodies quite literally become walking furnaces with very high-highs -- do we also not magically burn extra calories?  Seriously.

 

I get to get HOT and a lower metabolism...not cool.

 

Okay, back to your regular schedule.  

 

 

[lewelma]

Joanne,  Just to add another data point to this discussion.  The only morbidly obese people (400+lbs) I personally have ever met that have lost and kept off 200+lbs did it through exercise.  And I mean a LOT of exercise.  One man walked 3 hours to work every day and 3 hours home.  The other was a shift worker and after his shift he walked between 20 and 24 miles a day. Both of these men had to do this for 1.5 YEARS to get all the weight off.  I'm not sure if this is how they reset their metabolism, or what.  And clearly it is *extreme*, but they are the only successful outcomes for the morbidly obese that I know of. Each has kept the weight off at this point for more than 8 years.

 

Ruth in NZ

[creekland]

Add me to the stress-eating group. I gained 20 lbs between my mom's cancer diagnosis in June 2008 and the day I finally settled my parents' estate in June 2012.

 

I also stress-weed, which is a bit more useful ;)

 

But weed increases munchies?  And folks aren't usually grabbing celery sticks...

 

I don't stress eat so much as I stress drink.  And I am not talking about hitting the sauce either.   :p I am tend to, unless VERY careful, to start consuming many caffeinated, sweetened beverages when my stress goes way up.   To stay awake, to stay in go mode, to just stay alert enough to function for the people relying on me.  If anything, I replace nice meals with liquid crap.  

 

I use full sugar caffeinated soda whenever I need to stay awake - not just for stress.  It could be travel.  It could be family visiting.  It could be needing to get projects done.  My body so naturally turns off by 9pm (brain could be off at 8pm) that if I want to stay awake and be useful, caffeine is my drug of choice and I hate coffee - cold tea is distasteful.  I have to watch how many days I do the caffeine as I still get up no later than 5:30am every single day (often earlier).  I can't sleep in.  It can mess up my sleep hours considerably - and that can cause stress.

 

Interesting data just came on the news! (Literally - just heard it as I type...)  

 

Those who get less than 6 hours of sleep per night are 4X more likely to get a cold than those who sleep 7 hours or more and sleep is more important than age, stress, or income level.  (I had to back it up to make sure I typed it correctly.)  I work in a ps.  Fortunately, I don't get colds often.  I need to make sure I don't cut back the sleep much!

 

ps  Total rabbit trail, but the news also said a U of Michigan study has more students using weed (6%) than cigarettes (5%) at least 20X per semester...  Of course, the natural question from that is wondering why 5% of college students would smoke given today's data about smoking... but that probably goes along with the idea of "Healthy foods? Why?"

[creekland]

Hmm, in the week since youngest college boy left (and I'm not cheatin' with the types of foods I eat due to him), I've been losing 1/2 pound per day.  It seems great.  Keep it?  Or adjust and add some higher calorie deals to get back to 1lb per week?

 

Until this weekend I'm keeping it because my in-laws will see that it doesn't continue over Labor Day (all eating - no exercise - often horrid food choices).  But when I return?

 

Of course, it's only been a week so I've no idea how long it would be before my body would adjust anyway.

[Joanne]

Oh, the bolded is most certainly true - but there is still such a wide variety of fresh food available that most (again, I know about food deserts, that's why "most") people have the option not to eat the processed stuff. Eating processed foods is a choice for which each person has to take responsibility, and one cannot blame the availability of such foods. You don't have to eat the stuff. Never in history had humans access to so many different healthy foods in abundance.

 

I am curious about the claims that the food supply is to blame for the rise of obesity. I would like to see some links to scientific information that shows that - unprocessed- foods are not as nutritious today (no snark, I am really just curious).

You are reading "food supply" as "the availability of food." I wrote it, however, meaning the food that is available. That food, while more abundant than ever, is compromised and questionable - even the produce and supply from the recommended "out aisles" of the food stores.

 

I am personally of the belief that the change in women's shape is due to that.

[regentrude]

You are reading "food supply" as "the availability of food." I wrote it, however, meaning the food that is available. That food, while more abundant than ever, is compromised and questionable - even the produce and supply from the recommended "out aisles" of the food stores.

 

I am personally of the belief that the change in women's shape is due to that.

 

Do you have any studies that investigate the nutritional difference?

 

 

 

[Jane in NC]

You are reading "food supply" as "the availability of food." I wrote it, however, meaning the food that is available. That food, while more abundant than ever, is compromised and questionable - even the produce and supply from the recommended "out aisles" of the food stores.

 

I am personally of the belief that the change in women's shape is due to that.

 

While I have many issues with corporate farming and food processing, I am having a hard time connecting the dots here. One of the farmers I know talks about the loss of micronutrients in the soil.  Is this the sort of thing you mean?

 

I write often about my support for local farmers.  My diet is probably very different than yours and should be because I eat seasonally and locally.  My food choices are thus different than yours.  I have the luxury of buying food from local farmers for more months of the year than not so when I am buying produce in the grocery I am always disappointed in its quality.  There obviously are no studies  suggesting that produce from the grocery is any worse nutritionally than that from my local farms but I know that local stuff is fresher and tastes better. (I exercise my beliefs with my wallet and I believe in the general health of a community rests with its local economy--which is another issue.)

 

But I agree with Regentrude that the range of produce available year round has changed radically from my childhood. And I have also seen studies that suggest some of the frozen veg (basically from field to freezer) is more nutritious than some of the fresh.

 

Curious though:  How has today's market produce changed the shape of women? 

 

[Scarlett]

Interesting side note. I can't eat when stressed....but I eat when I have a sick headache. It feels like if I could just get enough of some kind of food in me I would feel better. Yesterday I ate chips I would never usually even want...and a bunch of mixed nuts....and supper after that. Now this doesn't work to fix my headache. Never does,

 

I also want junk food when I haven't had enough sleep.

[Bluegoat]

I am not convinced that changes in basic foods are responsible for obesity issues.  There are some indications that foods grown under factory farm conditions are slightly less nutritionally dense.  And there are more chemicals and pesticides that go into our bodies generally and some of that is from food, especially GM.  Some of the claims people make seem to be largely pseudo-science though - particularly some of the ones about gluten, and then while the added dairy hormones seems like it could be an issue many places don't allow that and there are the same weight issues.

 

There is increasing evidence that lack of diversity in the gut is an issue, but that seems to be in large part about the things we are choosing to eat.  Although possibly antibiotics used in farming is part of the culprit, we also over-medicate ourselves pretty heavily.  We also know kids born by c-section have less diverse guts.

 

But I think it is extremely speculative to say that the changes in foods themselves are mainly to blame for population changes.  There are so many other things that are going on that are quite clearly problems and when taken together likely increase the effect - lack of adequate sleep is huge.  Many many people eat processed foods all or much of the time.  Many people had unhealthy diets as kids even if they eat well now, and that seems to make a difference.  many people have a distorted idea of how much we should eat - not only does that mean they eat too much, those who control portions may still feel like they are being deprived. Exercise for many is just not at all of the same type - even if they fit it in, it is something added to their day in an artificial way.  That is quite different from the past when significant numbers of people were working physically all day, when standing to work and moving constantly was normative, when most people had to walk everywhere they wanted to go.  I don't know that it is possible that even an hour a day of very intense exercise can really compensate for that kind of daily movement - and its so hard to even accomplish that taking an hour a day regularly.

 

Even in a healthy food culture, or one without much excess, there were some people who tended to be heavy.  I think the question is if we changed these really basic and obvious things, how many more people would be in that position?  I am not convinced that it is clear that there would be more, or many more.

[MBM]

I've organically grown most of my own vegetables and fruit for years. Two things that I've found make a tremendous difference in upkeep, quality and yield are 1) adding a light layer of compost and a thick layer of mulch and 2) not disturbing the soil much after the bed has been initially prepared. I also like growing some of the heirlooms for their qualities.

 

Anyway, here's an article from Scientific American that discusses how conventional farming practices and breeding fruits and vegetables for certain traits -- bigger size, sweeter taste, resilience, etc. -- have led to a decline in nutrients in fruits and vegetables. There are more studies online if anyone is truly interested.

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/

 

ETA: Fruits that have been bred to have more natural sugars can raise blood sugars which could lead to storing more fat around the belly. That is one way how a woman's shape could change if they chose to eat too much. (Yes, I agree they can probably make different choices.) 

[ktgrok]

I wonder whether organic milk would have the same effect or not. I'm thinking maybe not.

 

It would still be designed to put weight on a calf quickly. It's somthing intrinsic to milk, not something added by the farmer or given to the lactating cow. 

[ktgrok]

Joanne,  Just to add another data point to this discussion.  The only morbidly obese people (400+lbs) I personally have ever met that have lost and kept off 200+lbs did it through exercise.  And I mean a LOT of exercise.  One man walked 3 hours to work every day and 3 hours home.  The other was a shift worker and after his shift he walked between 20 and 24 miles a day. Both of these men had to do this for 1.5 YEARS to get all the weight off.  I'm not sure if this is how they reset their metabolism, or what.  And clearly it is *extreme*, but they are the only successful outcomes for the morbidly obese that I know of. Each has kept the weight off at this point for more than 8 years.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Interesting, but obviously almost no one has 6 or more hours to exercise a day. There was an article somewhere saying that you could avoid weight loss surgery if you exercised 4 hours a day and ate a starvation level diet, and all I could think was...well yeah, but who can do that?

[ktgrok]

 

Those who get less than 6 hours of sleep per night are 4X more likely to get a cold than those who sleep 7 hours or more and sleep is more important than age, stress, or income level.  (I had to back it up to make sure I typed it correctly.)  I work in a ps.  Fortunately, I don't get colds often.  I need to make sure I don't cut back the sleep much!

 

 

 

Yup, when my son tried public school in highschool he was sick constantly, and despite people saying it was the exposure to more germs I'm positive it was actually the lack of sleep. He didn't get that sick when he was in elementary school (also public school), because he got way more sleep. I think it is part of why kids in kindy/preschool get sick all the time too. They have to wake up much earlier, and with parents not getting home from work until 6pm, they don't get to bed any earlier (once dinner, bath/etc is done). 

[Guest]

My great grandmother (who passed away when my mother was a girl) was a large woman, over 300 pounds. She was a dirt poor farmer in the Ozark mountains. Not just poor but poor poor, the kind of poor you read about. She worked on the farm. There is just no possible way that woman ate more calories than she burned.

 

CICO has bred this notion that larger people must be lazy. How could it not when the whole premise is that all you need to do is burn those calories?!? No one who knew my great grandmother thought she was lazy or that she over ate. She was mean as a snake and those are the stories that people tell. Her size wasn't seen as a character flaw. She was just large the way some people are tall or have black hair.

 

CICO has gotten us to a very ugly, judgey place in our culture and it needs to go away.

[ktgrok]

I think maybe we can agree on this statement: you need to burn more calories than you consume. What we don't agree on is how useful that statement is. When you really can't control how many you burn, or burn so few that you'd have to reduce intake to starvation levels, it just isn't a helpful statement. 

 

And when the people who say it (not saying in this thread) compare their experiences losing 10lbs they gained over the holidays to those who are 100lbs or 200lbs overweight it is even more frustrating, because you just can't compare. It's like a person who healed their bug bite with cortisone cream giving advice to a person with psorriasis or something. The scope is just so different it's not really applicable. 

[ktgrok]

My great grandmother (who passed away when my mother was a girl) was a large woman, over 300 pounds. She was a dirt poor farmer in the Ozark mountains. Not just poor butpoor poor, the kind of poor you read about. She worked on the farm. There is just no possible way that woman ate more calories than she burned.

 

CICO has bred this notion that larger people must be lazy. How could it not when the whole premise is that all you need to do is burn those calories?!? No one who knew my great grandmother thought she was lazy or that she over ate. She was mean as a snake and those are the stories that people tell. Her size wasn't seen as a character flaw. She was just large the way some people are tall or have black hair.

 

CICO has gotten us to a very ugly, judgey place in our culture and it needs to go away.

 

Worset to me is the assumption that obese people lack will power. Many of the obese people I know are the toughest, hardest, strongest people I know. My grandmother was obese her whole life. That women was tough as nails. She raised 6 children (5 boys in 3 years no less!), worked part time as a security guard of all things, etc. She was no wimp, and never shirked away from something difficult. If willpower could have made her thin she would have been thin. 

[PeachyDoodle]

Details?

 

Well, first, as I said previously, I am naturally a sedentary person. I prefer to use my mind rather than my body. Meaning that the things I enjoy -- reading, writing, theology, philosophy, etc. -- require mental energy, not physical energy. My brain goes at warp speed 24 hours a day. What I've found is that I can *feel* as though I've run a marathon purely on the output of my brain, when the truth is my body has done very little. So even though I felt as though I was being very active, I wasn't.

 

I also have always had low physical endurance. I'm not sure if that is a symptom or a cause of my problems. But this also led me to believe that I was working harder than I really was. For years I tried to subscribe to the "something is better than nothing" philosophy of exercise. But in my case, it really wasn't. A walk, even of a mile or two, did NOTHING for me except make me more tired and tick me off that I wasn't seeing results. But I really felt like I was absolutely doing as much as I was able to do.

 

I got lucky. I started in an exercise program at our local Y that was intended for people who were significantly overweight and out of shape. I only went because I felt like dh needed to go, and I wanted to offer moral support. I was taking water aerobics three times per week and had seen almost no weight loss in the year and a half I'd done it. But again, I felt like it was all I could possibly do. The trainer for the class took a liking to me, for whatever reason. She saw something in me I never saw in myself. She encouraged me, she pushed me, and she never let me say I couldn't do something. Just when I'd think I'd pushed myself to the absolute limits of my fat-girl, non-athletic, brainy self, she said, "Nope. Give me more. You can do this." Some days I hated her. Most of the time I thanked God for her.

 

This is what my exercise regimen looks like today, 18 months and 80 lbs later: 45-60 minutes of high-intensity circuit training (a variety of cardio, body weight, kettle bells, hand weights, and free weights -- whatever she throws at me) three times per week. Short run (1-2 miles) and 45 minutes of cycling one to two times per week. Longer run (2-4 miles) or additional circuit workout once per week. Occasional extras like yoga when I feel like I need it.

 

I do think this is more than the average woman my age. It's certainly more than most of my friends do (although I also have "skinny" friends at the Y who do that much and more). And it is far and away more than I ever thought I could do. But I don't consider it "extreme," as someone called it earlier. It is what I have to do to keep my body healthy. It is not easy, but it is worth it.

[Carol in Cal.]

Worset to me is the assumption that obese people lack will power. Many of the obese people I know are the toughest, hardest, strongest people I know. My grandmother was obese her whole life. That women was tough as nails. She raised 6 children (5 boys in 3 years no less!), worked part time as a security guard of all things, etc. She was no wimp, and never shirked away from something difficult. If willpower could have made her thin she would have been thin. 

Maybe she just never chose to apply her willpower to this.

 

That was my stance, for years.  I felt like spending my energy on this was a waste of perfectly good strength which could be better used for other things.  But now I'm a bit trapped, with health problems that this has caused or greatly amplified.  Bad choices, sure, but truthfully along the way I did the best I could with what I knew at the time, and no one could have called me weak or wimpy and made it stick. 

 

Live and learn, that's what I'm doing!

 

My great-grandmother is a towering figure in our family even though she died long before I was born.  She passed away at 62, had a heart attack while she was writing a letter, and fell over and died.  She was also really, really big, in a big and strong kind of way, at least judging from her pictures.  She was strong and strongminded and tough and totally loving.  I want to be like her, but live for at least 20 years longer.  That's why I'm paying more attention to these issues now that I know more about them.