No School in Two Years

[Rivka]

This is really more of a statement of the culture here than a statement about the situation in the thread, imo. Let's face it, this community is compromised of many people who tend to be "take charge" kind of people. Many people here expect much from their children, and no less from themselves. They are the kind of people that get sh!t done, so I don't mean this as a put down in any way. But let's not forget that this is a particular little subculture snug within another particular little subculture. The idea of taking charge and getting those kids the things they need RIGHT NOW is understandable from this community, but not so much outside it, I think. And really, this is all based on a few sentences the OP heard from a friend. Shocking sentences, but nevertheless, it's not evidence. How many people here would be mortified if something they've shared here was taken to mean their children were in jeopardy and required outside assistance based on the personal standards of another boardie?

 

 

Do you really think that it's only in our tiny, weird, driven, overly academic subculture of classical homeschooling that children are expected to receive some kind of education? I disagree. If that were the case, America wouldn't have had its first compulsory schooling law in place one hundred years before the American Revolution. I think that virtually everyone believes that children should receive regular schooling. It's one of the main concerns that non-homeschoolers express about homeschooling. It's the reason why we have, you know, schools. And truancy laws. Et cetera.

 

Yes, there are relaxed homeschoolers and unschoolers. I am more academically oriented than most of the homeschoolers I associate with in real life. You know what? They don't say "We haven't done any school in two years." They say "We're learning all the time." They say "Johnny has learned so much about engineering and design from playing Minecraft." I can tell the difference. I give Chellie the credit of believing that she can too.

 

How many people here would be mortified if something they've shared here was taken to mean their children were in jeopardy and required outside assistance based on the personal standards of another boardie?

 

 

The slippery slope argument is what causes us to sidle past a family in trouble, averting our eyes, twisting ourselves into a pretzel of tortured rationalizations. "Maybe when she said maggots, she meant that one day there was a housefly. After all, I feel embarrassed about my house, but it's not CPS worthy." "How would I feel if someone reported me for educational neglect because they believe that four-year-olds should have a reading program? Or because we went to the park instead of doing math one day?"

 

I have had people online look at pictures of my nine-year-old and express concern that we don't feed her enough. (She is very, very thin.) Yes, it has crossed my mind to worry that someone who thinks that way might hotline us for suspected neglect. Yes, it's crossed my mind that the neighbor who's feuding with us might report my kids for truancy. But thinking over the possibility that I might be the subject of a baseless report doesn't turn me against the child protection system. My skinny kid gets regular medical check-ups, has meals set before her three times a day, and has access to a wide range of foods in between meals. My not-in-school kids are registered as homeschoolers and have portfolio reviews twice a year. I'm doing right by my kids. If someone makes a baseless report, our life is my defense.

 

I'm not going to look the other way when a parent is neglecting or abusing their kids because, after all, some hypothetical person might have wildly off-base standards for neglect that include things that I do. My moral relativism doesn't slide quite that far. Kids have rights that are worthy of respect. Kids are helpless and deserve protection. I don't have to worry about "how would *I* like it if..." because I am not abusing or neglecting my kids.

[Katy]

Here is what we know from the OP:

 

OP has confirmed that this woman is not exaggerating with regard to her beyond messy house and lack of actual home educating.

 

OP has seen the dirty house in person.

 

OP has said that this woman has told her twice about her lack of actual home educating. 

 

OP said woman told her that a Sunday school teacher expressed specific concern about 10 year old not being able to write a sentence. So, a second, objective and independent verification on what mom has already said--twice.

 

OP said mom is a blogger and public speaker, so she seems to have time for other priorities in her life.

 

So, why do people posting here keep wanting to assume there is some exaggeration here? While it's gracious to give people the benefit of the doubt, hasn't the OP removed this doubt? Do we need pictures? Do we need samples of the kids' schoolwork--which doesn't appear to exist?

 

Yes, there are people on that hoarders show who have houses worse than this woman. That is not the standard.

 

Why is it so hard to say that a fellow homeschooler is doing a craptastic job? Can't we say that some people shouldn't be homeschooling? Can't we admit that homeschooling doesn't work well for all families? 

 

Again, the options aren't ignore or report to CPS. It appears that the OP has the common sense to have a conversation with her friend to determine the best course to take going forward. In the end, maybe it will be report to CPS. Maybe it will be report to the church. Hopefully, this mom will come to her senses and enroll these kids in school.

 

:iagree:   This.  This.  A thousand times this.

 

[Ellie]

But ultimately, what can the OP do? She lives 6-7 hours away. Nagging will only alienate her, and the friend is savvy enough to run a blog and be invited to speak, so she already knows the score. She knows how homeschooling is supposed to run. You can't be a homeschooler and be familiar with the internet, read and run blogs, and not come across how this is supposed to work. My thoughts run towards this person thinking she's being funny or relatable to others. If she's a public speaker, then not coming across as holier than thou will have much more positive results than the other way. If she's a minister's wife, it's not inconceivable she uses this as a segue to remind her audience that no matter how overwhelmed they get in this life ("Honey, I had bugs all over my dishes once, we had to throw them all away! Ewww!"), Jesus will still love them and prepare a sooper clean mansion for them in the next. This is just a guess, I have no idea what she speaks about of course.

 

 Helping a friend out who wants help is kind and considerate. Calling CPS because a friend who lives 6 hours away made a comment about bugs is overkill. It's micromanaging, condescending, and unnecessarily intrusive. I would MYOB only because I would imagine the friend is just venting/making conversation, or is totally screwy. In either case, I wouldn't get involved with this unless I was paid a handsome fee. Life it too short to fix people who don't want fixing.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Ellie]

 

Quite a few people mentioned depression, and honestly, I wouldn't have thought of that, but it could be the case. She doesn't act depressed, but I know that most people wear a mask to hid their depression when around other people. I will definitely mention that to her. Her house is a wreck. She's proud of the fact that it is a mess. In fact she was telling me how they might get dishes washed once a week and they frequently just throw dishes away because they are too nasty to even bother washing. Her children seem to be taken well care of in all other respects.

 

 

 

See, this changes things. It isn't only that she hasn't done school in two years; it's that her house is a nasty, gross trainwreck. I would be less likely to MMOB in this situation, although I would be very, very slow to involve any government agency such as CPS.

[vickjul]

Is there any possibility that she's exaggerating the situation? I know that I've made off-handed comments before about not having done a decent day of school in three months when we were in the midst of house-hunting, buying, renovating, and moving AND had a newborn.

 

When I said that, I didn't mean that we were doing absolutely nothing. I meant that we weren't reaching my goals. I'd give DD1 a math worksheet and leave her to work alone while I painted, or I'd turn on a Sid the Science Kid DVD to keep them occupied while I packed. In our case, DD1 got tired of rarely having anyone available to read to her and "magically" progressed from reading Bob Books with assistance to reading Magic Treehouse books independently over the course of the transition. Formal schooling got put on the back burner, but she was still learning and progressing, and I was still aiding in/loosely overseeing the process. 

 

I would be inclined to ask what, exactly, her kids are doing all day. If they're working independently, playing math games on the iPad, reading and following their interests, or anything remotely educational, I'd probably bite my tongue. But if they're not covering academic bases in any way, shape, or form, then the parents ARE in violation of TX law which requires "bona fide instruction" in reading, spelling, grammar, mathematics, and good citizenship. Even under TX's very loose guidelines, educational neglect is not OK.

The whole nasty house/moldy dishes business is beyond gross and would probably push me to call CPS even more than the educational neglect. No child should have to grow up in squalor just because Mom and Dad are so "heavenly minded" that they're no earthly good.

 

[albeto.]

Do you really think that it's only in our tiny, weird, driven, overly academic subculture of classical homeschooling that children are expected to receive some kind of education? I disagree.

No, I don't believe this at all, nor am I suggesting such an idea.

 

 

Yes, there are relaxed homeschoolers and unschoolers. I am more academically oriented than most of the homeschoolers I associate with in real life.

I suspect this sentiment (being more academically oriented than most homeschoolers) is rather common here. But that might not reflect Chelli's friend.

 

 

The slippery slope argument is what causes us to sidle past a family in trouble, averting our eyes, twisting ourselves into a pretzel of tortured rationalizations. "Maybe when she said maggots, she meant that one day there was a housefly. After all, I feel embarrassed about my house, but it's not CPS worthy." "How would I feel if someone reported me for educational neglect because they believe that four-year-olds should have a reading program? Or because we went to the park instead of doing math one day?"

The individual made comments in passing, another friend laughed. I've told my kids that if they kept up XYZ, I'll rip their arm off and beat them about the head and shoulders with the bloody stump. It's far more obvious that this isn't a realistic portrayal of their reality, but should someone think my kids were in physical danger based on a joke, I'd be livid if the police were called. The thing is, Chelli doesn't know if this comment in passing was meant to be a joke. The other friend didn't seem to be horrified, so perhaps it's not as bad as the images people here seem to be promoting. Further, if it was so bad, surely you don't think a local friend or neighbor or fellow church goer would see a state of hazard and squaller and ignore it? The OP lives six hours away. People who live six hours away from me really don't have a solid grasp of my life or what's going on in my home. It's arrogant and invasive to assume they know better and that legal intervention is warranted based on a comment in passing.

 

Chelli doesn't seem to be steering towards that avenue, so this becomes a hypothetical question now. Hypothetically, is it appropriate for one person to invoke legal intervention on another based on a comment made in passing, one that didn't raise the eyebrows of a mutual friend, one made by a person who lives six hours away? This seems to me needlessly micromanaging. I can't imagine the local authorities would put much stock into such a claim, and perhaps, depending on their time and resources, may politely thank the caller and wish them a nice life, don't call us we'll call you. But none of this has anything to do with valuing education. It has to do with valuing liberty and recognizing that free society means we have to put up with people who can freely make really rotten choices, even if their kids are getting the short end of the stick. If the kids aren't in danger - and nothing about a comment made in passing that didn't raise the alarm for a third party suggests they are in actual danger - the parents get to be schmucks. Hey, if I had my 'druthers, I'd make entrance into churches more like entrances into strip clubs - age requirements and recognition of fantasy through the front doors. But I don't get that because you and Chelli and her friend and everyone in America is free to raise their children in ways I find detrimental to individuals as well as society as a whole. But my opinions are irrelevant because you and Chelli and her friend and everyone in the US is free to do this very thing whether or not I think it's a terrible idea.

 

 

I have had people online look at pictures of my nine-year-old and express concern that we don't feed her enough. (She is very, very thin.) Yes, it has crossed my mind to worry that someone who thinks that way might hotline us for suspected neglect. Yes, it's crossed my mind that the neighbor who's feuding with us might report my kids for truancy. But thinking over the possibility that I might be the subject of a baseless report doesn't turn me against the child protection system. My skinny kid gets regular medical check-ups, has meals set before her three times a day, and has access to a wide range of foods in between meals. My not-in-school kids are registered as homeschoolers and have portfolio reviews twice a year. I'm doing right by my kids. If someone makes a baseless report, our life is my defense.

I'm not against child protection or the system that enforces it, either. Nevertheless, I don't think a comment made in passing is enough to warrant cries of alarm. There's too many genuinely awful things happening to kids to play Gladys Kravitz.

 

 

I'm not going to look the other way when a parent is neglecting or abusing their kids because, after all, some hypothetical person might have wildly off-base standards for neglect that include things that I do. My moral relativism doesn't slide quite that far. Kids have rights that are worthy of respect. Kids are helpless and deserve protection. I don't have to worry about "how would *I* like it if..." because I am not abusing or neglecting my kids.

I'm not in agreement that the kids are being neglected because of a comment made in passing to a friend who lives six hours away. Other than that, I fully agree with you. In fact, I would go so far as to support legislation that identified and protected children's rights to education. I think the Common Core is a step in that direction. While it may be a mess to organize, and while it may create some unintended problems, I think the sentiment is not only good, but important enough to keep working on.

[Stellalarella]

Apparently there isn't a curriculum entitled "The No-Sweat, No-Tears, No-CPS Method of Dealing with Ineffective and Potentially Unwell Homeschooling Mothers and Disengaged but Religiously Motivated Fathers." Or a competing mini-book curriculum entitled "Call CPS and Put the Problem Homeschooling Mom Into the Hands of the Authorities and Get Her Out of Your Hair."  

 

But if someone could just write those up--preferably with Beast Academy type comic characters, i will help you peddle it here on the interweb.  The mini-book would only have, like, one page.  The other curriculum is going to be....complicated.  

 

Don't we do this thread bi-weekly?  

[Stellalarella]

Elizabeth Bennett delivers this line as a true friend would:    "That is a failing indeed.  But I cannot laugh at it."

 

 

[Reefgazer]

No kiddin'.  I still wouldn't be able to eat even after they washed their maggot-infested dishes, LOL!

That truly is appalling. And I'm trying to imagine how this transpired...did she say, "Oh, hey Bob. The pizza is here. Could you wash up a few plates? Everything is in the sink." Who *does* that???

I just had friends over this past weekend and I cleaned and cooked the entire day. Plus I felt a bit embarassed that I didn't get the Lasagna in the oven early enough to clean off the counters before friends arrived. I grant you, I am a weirdo the opposite way, but if you have to err in preparing for guests, err the other way. Be a neat freak.

I hope you will tell us how it went.

P.s. My mother was a very poor keeper of home, while knocking heself out for the church. It did not create a favorable impression in me. I believe that it was just way more gratifying to make twenty costumes for the Christmas Program, where everyone would rave about her talents and generosity, than it was to put together a meal and clean a bathroom for the sake of the family.

 

[73349]

Rather than books for those who might intervene... You know how there are helpful toddler/preschool books like "Pacifiers are Not Forever"? We need a grown-up version called "Homeschooling is Not for Everyone." And then you just mail it to the house, and the parents might then realize it's time to reflect (especially if they get more than one copy).

[Reefgazer]

In honor of this thread, I made up a chore chart for my kids so that I don't ever have maggot-infested dishes or un-mopped floors, or a dirty bathroom, ever again.  I was at the point where I was thinking that they are old enough to take on some substantial chores anyway (10 and 12), and this thread just motivated me to do that.  So DD just finished cleaning the bathrooms while I've sat here on my ass typing on this thread.  As soon as DS gets home form cub scouts, my kitchen floor will be swept and mopped!

[Joanne]

It's not so much a matter of looking the other way, as of putting responsibility on the right pair of shoulders. I am fully in agreement that if a person does not want state intervention or requirements for homeschoolers, they better had make sure they have the time and the energy to police each other, and look out for each other's children.

 

I would MUCH prefer that adequate safeguards against educational neglect are in place on a state level. I do not want the responsibility of other people's homeschools. I want the state to be responsible for ensuring all children get an education. That probably means a higher level of accountability than most people are prepared to accept.

 

I agree that the church should bear some responsibility for taking care of, and keeping accountable, their own.

 

I agree with this (and I know we have disagreed before, Sadie, on this topic).

 

I think, for me, when I talk about increased involvement and accountability within the homeschooling community that means speaking out. It means speaking truth. It means challenging commonly trotted out platitudes about homeschooling's effectiveness. It means considering there might be some value in the expectation that most kids can read by 8, and do the four basic math functions by then as well. It means not saying "the baby is the lesson" or "grandma dying is the lesson". Dying grandmas and having babies happen throughout the lifespan of a homeschooling family. Do school anyway.

 

It means speaking the truth that my experience with homeschoolers reveals gaps in math, writing, and upper level science.

 

It means challenging the assumption that homeschooling is best, better, or ideal.

[texasmama]

Please add to my list that I have vacuumed, made three hot meals and put away laundry.  If the maggot talk continues, things will be ship shape Martha Stewart-like around here in no time.

 

P.S.  I also did school with the children AND held a "meeting" with my rising 9th graders regarding high school plans, credits, and options.  And I want extra credit because I did it all after drinking decaf coffee, I was up until 4 am.  No coffee of any type for me after noon, and anyone here is welcome to remind me of that if I lose my mind in the future and blab about a nice cup of decaf before bed.  However, I did not exercise so there is a cost to all of this productivity and cleanliness.  Please note, lest anyone think I am a perfectionist or a boaster, that I did it ALL while wearing an old sweat shirt and pajama pants.  It humanizes me and makes me approachable to the masses, after all.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I agree with this (and I know we have disagreed before, Sadie, on this topic).

 

I think, for me, when I talk about increased involvement and accountability within the homeschooling community that means speaking out. It means speaking truth. It means challenging commonly trotted out platitudes about homeschooling's effectiveness. It means considering there might be some value in the expectation that most kids can read by 8, and do the four basic math functions by then as well. It means not saying "the baby is the lesson" or "grandma dying is the lesson". Dying grandmas and having babies happen throughout the lifespan of a homeschooling family. Do school anyway.

 

It means speaking the truth that my experience with homeschoolers reveals gaps in math, writing, and upper level science.

 

It means challenging the assumption that homeschooling is best, better, or ideal.

I've begun a slogan campaign in an attempt to replace platitudes with sense.

 

For example, we've all heard the phrase "anything you'll do is more/better than public school."

 

Because that fallacious thought has become doctrine, I'm sending this one out into the universe whenever possible:

 

"Only a fool or a liar would claim the schools offer nothing and then deliberately offer even less."

 

Watch for it on Facebook.

 

If anybody wants to join the Responsible Hs'ing Ministry of Information we meet on Tuesdays at Panera.

[texasmama]

I've begun a slogan campaign in an attempt to replace platitudes with sense.

 

For example, we've all heard the phrase "anything you'll do is more/better than public school."

 

Because that fallacious thought has become doctrine, I'm sending this one out into the universe whenever possible:

 

"Only a fool or a liar would claim the schools offer nothing and then deliberately offer even less."

 

Watch for it on Facebook.

 

If anybody wants to join the Responsible Hs'ing Ministry of Information we meet on Tuesdays at Panera.

Can I wear yoga pants to this meeting?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Can I wear yoga pants to this meeting?

Yes. We drink a little, too.

[Haiku]

Yes. We drink a little, too.

 

Count me in. Although I don't wear yoga pants. ;)

[Rivka]

Just to update you all, my DH is doing the dishes right this minute.

 

Not because they haven't been done in a week and company is present, mind you. Just because he lives here and benefits from my awesome cooking prowess.

[MinivanMom]

I agree with this (and I know we have disagreed before, Sadie, on this topic).

 

I think, for me, when I talk about increased involvement and accountability within the homeschooling community that means speaking out. It means speaking truth. It means challenging commonly trotted out platitudes about homeschooling's effectiveness. It means considering there might be some value in the expectation that most kids can read by 8, and do the four basic math functions by then as well. It means not saying "the baby is the lesson" or "grandma dying is the lesson". Dying grandmas and having babies happen throughout the lifespan of a homeschooling family. Do school anyway.

 

It means speaking the truth that my experience with homeschoolers reveals gaps in math, writing, and upper level science.

 

It means challenging the assumption that homeschooling is best, better, or ideal.

 

I love this! It could be an inspirational poster:

 

Mom is pregnant. Do school anyway.

A baby was born. Do school anyway.

A toddler is getting into everything. Do school anyway.

Relatives get sick. Do school anyway.

Grandmas die. Do school anyway.

You're preparing kids for heaven, not Harvard. Do school anyway.

Your state has no homeschool oversight. Do school anyway.

Education is important, so do school anyway.

 

Then maybe there could be a picture of mom at the kitchen table surrounded by kids or on the couch reading a book aloud or clinging to a tree branch or something.

[LucyStoner]

This is what I think about. If, heaven forbid, my husband and I were not around to care for my sons and they were being cared for this way by their guardians, what would I want a concerned, sane, rational adult who was made aware of it verbally and in person to do for my sons? Surely I would not want nothing done. If I were (not) caring for them that way, why would my answer change? Surely I would not think that the adult should MTOB and ignore the needs of my children. She needs to be told the truth by someone even if that truth is hard to hear.

 

All children deserve an education and I believe firmly a child's right to an education trumps a parents right to do nada. If someone believes parents have an absolute right to do whatever to their kids short of physical harm, that's just where we philosophically diverge. It is not patronizing to take a mother at her word that she is ignoring her kid's educational needs and raising them in unsanitary conditions. The child's rights should never be totally trumped by the parent's whims for public speaking and visible leadership.

[LucyStoner]

Can I wear yoga pants to this meeting?

You mean I have to put on pants to come to the meeting?! Aww man. Come on. Chill out. That's just too demanding. Who wants to be THAT responsible?!

[Ausmumof3]

It seems to me there are two things to consider here. One is the freedom and subsequent responsibility of homeschooling, the other is this specific situation. In this specific situation, I would say nothing. I'm with Cat here in that I can't imagine there's much about this woman with which I could relate, if these stories of hers are to be believed on their face value. There are all kinds of people in this world, and we can't fix 'em all, and I'd be willing to bet this woman doesn't want fixing (which any intervention would likely feel like, as I assume from her complete comfort with sharing these disgusting habits with people). So I wouldn't bother because I don't think anything good would come of it, and I would rather spend my time and energy on those for whom I have admiration, respect, and find joyful to be around.

 

But I don't know if in the great state of Texas children have a right to education as much as parents have a right to raise their children as they see fit. If this woman is raising her children to go to heaven not Harvard, I suspect she'd have the support to do just that. After all, the children have a greater right to know Jesus and be saved, don't tread on me, don't tell me what to do, you're not my real mom, etc etc etc.

 

I have to imagine throwing away maggot infested dishes is hyperbole, and that she's trying to downplay her housekeeping skills. Perhaps she saw a creepy bug, made a comment once, got laughs, and repeats for the sake of the story. I've never been to Texas, but in hotter, dryer climates, it's not unusual for insects to completely disregard a someone's personal boundaries and make camp in the shelter of a human-built house.

 

But ultimately, what can the OP do? She lives 6-7 hours away. Nagging will only alienate her, and the friend is savvy enough to run a blog and be invited to speak, so she already knows the score. She knows how homeschooling is supposed to run. You can't be a homeschooler and be familiar with the internet, read and run blogs, and not come across how this is supposed to work. My thoughts run towards this person thinking she's being funny or relatable to others. If she's a public speaker, then not coming across as holier than thou will have much more positive results than the other way. If she's a minister's wife, it's not inconceivable she uses this as a segue to remind her audience that no matter how overwhelmed they get in this life ("Honey, I had bugs all over my dishes once, we had to throw them all away! Ewww!"), Jesus will still love them and prepare a sooper clean mansion for them in the next. This is just a guess, I have no idea what she speaks about of course.

 

Helping a friend out who wants help is kind and considerate. Calling CPS because a friend who lives 6 hours away made a comment about bugs is overkill. It's micromanaging, condescending, and unnecessarily intrusive. I would MYOB only because I would imagine the friend is just venting/making conversation, or is totally screwy. In either case, I wouldn't get involved with this unless I was paid a handsome fee. Life it too short to fix people who don't want fixing.

I want to like and agree with this pretty much. I have friends where mould and dirt stories get exchanged and yeah... It is most likely just a lunch box someone forgot in the car under the seat or something.

 

There does seem to be a pattern of these non educating families where the person responsible for the homeschooling is heavily involved in Something else. If mum and dad are both required to work in the church they either need to work hard together on homeschooling and housekeeping or find another option. I do feel a little sad that the mum got such a negative response in the thread and dad minimally. If she's just as involved in church work as he is she is helping to earn the pay cheque and she needs to help at home. If her work is voluntary she needs to either cut it to a manageable level (she still should be able to do something for herself though... She's not a house slave) or choose another educational option for the mum.

 

But honestly there's not much you can actually do other than stress the importance of education with her.

[ElizabethB]

Christians need to be able to read the Bible for themselves to know and read about Truth, not just someone else's interpretation of the Truth.

 

My online phonics lessons for a start, they teach phonics to a 12th grade level using the Book of Romans. They can watch them through several times, one of my students watched them through 3 times, gaining a grade level each time.

 

Mathematics is God Silent is a great book for Biblical reasons why you need to learn math. I am not a big fan of any of the DVD math programs, but they would be a good start while she figures out what she can do on her own. Another short term possibility is the ADAM k-7 math assessment, linked to Kahn Academy videos in areas of remediation need. Not a complete curriculum but a good gap filler.

[FO4UR]

I love this! It could be an inspirational poster:

 

Mom is pregnant. Do school anyway.

A baby was born. Do school anyway.

A toddler is getting into everything. Do school anyway.

Relatives get sick. Do school anyway.

Grandmas die. Do school anyway.

You're preparing kids for heaven, not Harvard. Do school anyway.

Your state has no homeschool oversight. Do school anyway.

Education is important, so do school anyway.

 

Then maybe there could be a picture of mom at the kitchen table surrounded by kids or on the couch reading a book aloud or clinging to a tree branch or something.

 

 

No kidding!  Call it summer maybe, but you only get one summer per year.  

 

At the very least, sign your kids up for some online learning.

[unsinkable]

IMO, time spent comforting the sick and dying is never time misspent.

 

It makes me ill to read things like *Grandma dying? Do school anyway.*

[Stellalarella]

is a flow chart ever helpful? 

[teachermom2834]

I love this! It could be an inspirational poster:

 

Mom is pregnant. Do school anyway.

A baby was born. Do school anyway.

A toddler is getting into everything. Do school anyway.

Relatives get sick. Do school anyway.

Grandmas die. Do school anyway.

You're preparing kids for heaven, not Harvard. Do school anyway.

Your state has no homeschool oversight. Do school anyway.

Education is important, so do school anyway.

 

Then maybe there could be a picture of mom at the kitchen table surrounded by kids or on the couch reading a book aloud or clinging to a tree branch or something.

 

I have two high schoolers who are doing well (including good ACT scores) and this is it.  Our homeschool has not been perfect.  We have had bad days, weeks, and even years.  But we always kept going and when someone or something outside our homeschool pointed out a possible deficiency we examined it instead of dismissing it.  Sometimes we were missing a skill.  Sometimes not.  But we looked at it and evaluated the situation. 

 

And we kept going.  Every day we just did it.  It didn't have to be perfect.  It didn't have to "rigorous".  It did have to happen everyday.

 

And that is what I tell people coming to me for advice (as happens now that I have ones almost ready to graduate).  The most important thing is to commit to doing the reading, writing, and math everyday.  Doesn't matter what curriculum.  Just have to actually do it. 

 

And all these years later I am having more and more trouble following through on this.  And I am looking into public school for my younger two.  I love homeschooling.  I think it works.  But, Mom has to make sure it is getting done.  I can see myself slipping in the next few years and we will no longer be homeschooling when that happens :(

[albeto.]

is a flow chart ever helpful?

"What is long term? Consult WTM forum."

 

:laugh:

 

Well done!

[albeto.]

Something about maggots just super creeps me out.

My husband is a scientist. We've had maggots preserved in the freezer on purpose (and insects in the fridge, too). Imagine the horror of the sweet girl who spent the afternoon with us and wanted to be helpful and make lunch and looked in the freezer to see what we had.

 

The scream could be heard a block away.

[Katy]

IMO, time spent comforting the sick and dying is never time misspent.

 

It makes me ill to read things like *Grandma dying? Do school anyway.*

 

Seems like a red herring.  Dying is sometimes short, and other times it takes years longer than expected. Dying people sleep a lot.  Even if it's your mother, and she's living with you, you can still spend three hours doing reading, writing, and math every day.

[Guest]

is a flow chart ever helpful?

I love this!!! You win!

 

 

Except...you didn't side-bar moldy dishes and blog maintenance!

[Luckymama]

IMO, time spent comforting the sick and dying is never time misspent.

 

It makes me ill to read things like *Grandma dying? Do school anyway.*

My father died quite suddenly 18 months after my mother's death. Dd and I found him in their house. I had to deal with my grief, serving as the executrix of the estate, and selling the house.

 

We still did school except for that first week. Some days it was only math, literature, and a history or science dvd. Some days she did her work in a lawyer's conference room. Some days we sat together on the couch. And other days we did a full complement of school work.

 

But school work still was done.

[Guest]

Hijack alert: one spring, we were the first in the extended family to head down to the beach house. Upon opening the door, we were hit with a shocking stench of rot and there were 10,000 flies buzzing about the kitchen. My first instinct was, "oh, god, a dead animal is in here somewhere!" Then I walked past the warm fridge. And the source of trouble was apparent. The fridge had broken. The furry condiments were bad, but the capper was the chicken (for crab bait), and hamburger kept in the freezer. Gah! There was also a "soup" at the bottom of the freezer, made from melted ice cream and thawed meat juices.

 

If you can clean that up without heaving, you are a strong, strong woman.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Even if it's your mother, and she's living with you, you can still spend three hours doing reading, writing, and math every day.

 

 

Okay, it may have already been decided I'm a slacker.  If so, then bypass this post.

 

But I can tell you that whether my mother lives with me or not, we will NOT be doing three hours school the day she dies (unless she dies suddenly, unexpectantly, late enough in the day that we already "did school").  We also will not be doing school the rest of that week and possibly the next week.  PERIOD.  And if that makes us CPS reportable, so freaking be it, report away.  Seriously?  The dishes probably won't be done either and the floor probably won't be mopped.  OH FREAKING WELL!  

 

(Note:  I figure the poster that wrote the original comment about "do school anyway" was probably not fully serious about this particular one.  I took it as "cute." )

 

(Note2:  I know my friends and neighbors.  I'd guess my house will likely be live-able.  *I* will not be cleaning it)

[Guest]

IMO, time spent comforting the sick and dying is never time misspent.

 

It makes me ill to read things like *Grandma dying? Do school anyway.*

I don't think it is, either, and I think there's a place for not schooling sometimes because of major upheaval. However, these instances should not be cropping up regularly and lasting for months or years.

 

I homeschooled after my sister's sudden death - but not the day she died; probably not for a week, and then it was probably Homeschool Lite for another couple weeks. I homeschooled while on bed-rest, but it was whatever could be accomplished by Dd at the coffee table while I lay on the couch beside.

[LucyStoner]

Seems like a red herring. Dying is sometimes short, and other times it takes years longer than expected. Dying people sleep a lot. Even if it's your mother, and she's living with you, you can still spend three hours doing reading, writing, and math every day.

I agree. My mother's death was protracted and very time intensive for us. Making it worse, I had a newborn and was hit hard by PPD. A lot of things didn't get done. Amazon Fresh for milk, lunch fixings, fruit and Cherrios was all the grocery shopping we got done and we kept two take out places in business I am sure. But my son had everything he needed to do school, read and be a little boy, and we made sure things didn't get too far out of hand.

 

When relatives die while a child is in school here a week or so of an absense is excused. What I hear some homeschoolers rationalizing is months and months totally off, perhaps both before and after the death. By all means take a break, by all means cut down to the basics. But cutting down to nothing for huge swaths of time isn't reasonable.

 

The one that puzzles me is "the baby is the lesson". Maybe. But that can't be the only lesson, life just doesn't work that way.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Wow.

 

I really, sincerely, took Joanne's words about "grandma dying" to mean those cases where hs'ers post their litany of woes over the past years that have made them unable to teach their dc. THAT. Not the acute situation.

 

For Pete's sake, she's a mental health professional. She is not advocating for people to come home from a funeral and crack open the math books!

[TammyS]

I feel so conflicted about this whole situation, probably because I don't know what's really going on. 

 

On the one hand, I am very serious about a rigorous education (my son is doing Lukeion AP Latin this year, AP bio, just to give you a sense of my seriousness)....and yet, when he was 12 I had a baby, and we did nothing for a year.  The baby was a "hard" baby and I was exhausted.  I knew my son was ahead and so I just let it go.  In fairness, I guess it was defacto unschooling, because we don't do TV or video games, and the house is full of books.  But the truth is that whatever he might have learned that year was an accident.  I didn't do anything to cause it.

 

The following year we picked up with school....and my son was so awful that I honestly wish I had taken that year off.  He learned some stuff, I force-marched him through the curriculum that year, but it honestly wasn't worth it.  I didn't realize it at the time, but I honestly think he was growing too much to do anything else (like school).  He grew 15" that year (no, that's not a typo..15").  It would have been better for both of us if I had tucked a copy of Huckleberry Finn in his tacklebox and sent him fishing that year. 

 

The year after that...he turned back into a person.  Truth.  It wasn't anything I did.  I never figured out a magic bullet or anything.  He just grew up and decided to do his work.  Now he's 16 and doing a relatively heavy course load and asking for a heavier one next year.

 

And I'm not the world's best housekeeper, either.  I don't think anyone (other than my MIL, whose floors are literally so clean you would feel fine about eating off of them) would accuse us of living squalor.  But it's not super clean, either.  I have dog hair on the floor, towel lint on the bathroom sink (do other people have this problem?  my towels just seem to disintegrate into the air and stick to every surface in the bathroom), and a greasy pan on the stove (and that's just stuff off the top of my head).  I don't think I've had pots or plates go moldy...but for sure I've had stuff in the fridge go moldy, and yeah, a couple of times I decided to throw out the cheapo plastic container because I didn't feel like dealing with it (this alone is a reason I will never buy real tupperwear). 

 

So, I'm reticent to judge this woman's situation.  Though the blog and speaker stuff does worry me.  And makes me concerned that maybe I shouldn't listen too closely to other homeschooling moms who are bloggers/speakers.

 

And speaking as someone who grew up in a dysfunctional home in which CPS was involved a number of times, I can say for sure I would not report her.  The only way  I would do that is if I sincerely thought the kids would be better off in foster care because my experience is that parents will (intentionally or unintentionally) take it out on the kids.  CPS involvement never made our lives growing up better, they made it worse.  Because nothing substantive was ever done, but there was another (HUGE) layer of stress added onto an already bad situation.  The one substantive thing CPS did do (by that time I was out of the house) was take my younger sister (15 at the time) out of my mother's custody and place her in the custody of her 23 year old boyfriend's parents, where he was also living.  No surprise she had a baby 10 months later.

 

 

[Haiku]

IMO, time spent comforting the sick and dying is never time misspent.

 

It makes me ill to read things like *Grandma dying? Do school anyway.*

While that may be true, children go to school, adults go to work, sports are played, groceries are shopped for, clothing is laundered, and countless other daily life activities are accomplished by millions and billions of people every day even while a loved one is dying. Life does not stop. Children still need what they need.

[teachermom2834]

I have heard people use a death of a grandparent to explain an entire year off of school.  More than once I have heard this.  I think that is the type of break being referenced. 

 

My mom died in July and it was quick so I didn't have to make that choice.  But, come August, I was so relieved to have a school routine to get into again.  I was very depressed and didn't do my absolute best homeschooling that year but the kids did pick back up with school.  And it was necessary for everyone to keep going.  Would not have been healthy to take months off.  I was really hurting but routine and caring for my kids was helpful. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

When my son was in ICU this past fall I didn't even realize how many days were going by. The acute portion of his illness took a long time.

 

My mother was taking care of the other dc. After some time passed and my son was moved to the hematology floor, she asked what to do about their school. On the same day (I think) an education expert at the hospital came by to tell me that it was time for my son to resume his studies now that he was out of ICU, even though he was still freaked out, at risk, not well.

 

It was extremely jarring to be told by all these people that the kids needed their school. For me, time had stopped. The other boys were safe and with family and friends - I was barely thinking of them except to talk on the phone and to cry sometimes in the shower...their school was the last thing on my mind. Especially for the son who had just nearly died. They thought he needed calculus? Right now?

 

I figured it was one of those (many) instances in which I was too close to a situation and the experts, and family, could probably see more clearly and I should just defer. I sent laundry baskets full of curriculum to my mom, with instructions in how to teach. I went home to collect a stack of books for my son, and brought his nearest-aged brother to the hospital to study with him. He was glad to immerse himself in his studies for awhile, and the younger boys and Grandma had a lot of fun learning together. They were all correct about getting the kids back to school.

 

Anyhow. As I said, this was an acute period. I wouldn't be the type to blow off a whole year over trauma -- I'd find a way to resume school, or find an alternative (BTDT, still doing it...) But during the event, if it's protracted at all, the children need their education and (as the ed expert explained) the familiarity of school. I disagree that Mom should have this as her priority right now, if she's the primary caregiver and under that kind of stress. This is when community is needed.

 

Except...for read alouds or some of it, we die-hard hs'ers connect with our kids over the lessons. If we need help with the academics, that's to be expected, but we have to remember to look them in the eye and talk about things even though it's not within our usual construct of intimate and effective homeschooling.

[T'smom]

I love this! It could be an inspirational poster:

 

Mom is pregnant. Do school anyway.

A baby was born. Do school anyway.

A toddler is getting into everything. Do school anyway.

Relatives get sick. Do school anyway.

Grandmas die. Do school anyway.

You're preparing kids for heaven, not Harvard. Do school anyway.

Your state has no homeschool oversight. Do school anyway.

Education is important, so do school anyway.

 

Then maybe there could be a picture of mom at the kitchen table surrounded by kids or on the couch reading a book aloud or clinging to a tree branch or something.

Unless you live in MI and the temperature finally hits 50 degrees and it is sunny- then you throw the books out, put on shorts and flip flops and dance in the street singing hallelujah!

[Wabi Sabi]

IMO, time spent comforting the sick and dying is never time misspent.

 

It makes me ill to read things like *Grandma dying? Do school anyway.*

My MIL moved in with us following a massive stroke 8 years ago. We thought we were moving her in with us for her final days. We spent a small fortune taking a dream vacation with her and our toddler because we genuinely didn't expect her to make it to the end of the year and we wanted to do this one last, big thing to make her happy. 

 

Eight years later, here we still are. She has had countless hospitalizations, ICU stays, health emergencies, many times we've had to call 911 for an ambulance, you name it. 15 months ago she was in ICU, not expected to live, and if she did live, she would certainly need to be on dialysis for the rest of her life. She made it despite the odds and then we started talking hospice care with her doctors. She's like the cat with nine lives: no dialysis, happier and healthier than she has been in the past decade! No one can believe it. 

 

Thing is, for years I felt like we were making no progress because we were always going from one crisis to the next. Eventually I realized: this wasn't a crisis. This was just our new life, and at a certain point, life just has to go on. School has to go on. We have hauled books to the ICU, to the waiting rooms of specialists, to meetings with social workers and hospice workers and therapists and to the Medicaid office, the Social Security office. School went on (albeit more slowly) when MIL broke her hip AND at the same time my dh was in the hospital for nearly a month followed by a six week recovery/convalescence at home. 

 

Dying can be a very long, up and down, drawn out process. You can still comfort the sick and dying, but eventually you just have to do school anyway. Sometimes you can even kill two birds with one stone by sending a child into Mamaw's room with a stack of books to read aloud to her...  :001_wub:

[Stellalarella]

Last December my elderly, sick inlaws moved in.  We became a family of 10 and our time spent in doctor's offices and hospitals went up by 900%.

 

I was counseled by someone who knows me well not to push too hard on homeschooling.  But I did anyway.  

 

And pretty much went crazy.  

 

Dad died, Mom moved to another place, and we are back to 8.  

 

I think maybe we would have been better off to have eased up--but at the time, I just thought it was for FOREVER.  I didn't know it was only going to be months, so I pushed through like a maniac.  

[Stellalarella]

My MIL moved in with us following a massive stroke 8 years ago. We thought we were moving her in with us for her final days. We spent a small fortune taking a dream vacation with her and our toddler because we genuinely didn't expect her to make it to the end of the year and we wanted to do this one last, big thing to make her happy. 

 

Eight years later, here we still are. She has had countless hospitalizations, ICU stays, health emergencies, many times we've had to call 911 for an ambulance, you name it. 15 months ago she was in ICU, not expected to live, and if she did live, she would certainly need to be on dialysis for the rest of her life. She made it despite the odds and then we started talking hospice care with her doctors. She's like the cat with nine lives: no dialysis, happier and healthier than she has been in the past decade! No one can believe it. 

 

Thing is, for years I felt like we were making no progress because we were always going from one crisis to the next. Eventually I realized: this wasn't a crisis. This was just our new life, and at a certain point, life just has to go on. School has to go on. We have hauled books to the ICU, to the waiting rooms of specialists, to meetings with social workers and hospice workers and therapists and to the Medicaid office, the Social Security office. School went on (albeit more slowly) when MIL broke her hip AND at the same time my dh was in the hospital for nearly a month followed by a six week recovery/convalescence at home. 

 

Dying can be a very long, up and down, drawn out process. You can still comfort the sick and dying, but eventually you just have to do school anyway. Sometimes you can even kill two birds with one stone by sending a child into Mamaw's room with a stack of books to read aloud to her...  :001_wub:

Thank you for sharing.  I HEAR YOU!  hug!

[HS Mom in NC]

I've homeschooled through 2 years of international adoption insanity and a year of extremely difficult transition for my youngest (kids were 9,7 and 7 months.)   We kept plugging away at the basics every day and kept schooling through the summer.  It can be done if you decide it can be done.

 

I've homeschooled through helping care for my maternal grandparents in hospice.  My mother is an only child.  It's ridiculous to say that you cannot get some basics in on a regular basis while caring for a beloved, terminally ill grandparent. You can get in short, concise lessons and do some practice with your kids.  That doesn't mean the entire day or on the very worst days. It means most days.  I've done hospice care at my mother's house on a 3 month span with one grandparent after 6 months of daily drop in care and then for the next 2 years helping with the surviving grandparent who had Alzheimer's and ended with a month in a hospice facility after a stroke.  My kids still got school done and if I had to, I could've schooled during the summer to make up time.  There are ways to get it done once you decide it can be done.

 

I switched from mostly living book and do the next thing with the older kids to more workbook stuff that could be scheduled by the week because it was more realistic for a time.   Youngest did reading and math as she was very young.  Sometimes you have to go with plan B and not  get sucked into all or nothing thinking about your ideal plan A. Yeah, it's great to live up to your ideals but it's not always possible.  That's perfectly OK. You don't have to apologize for it.  Just do what you need to do.

 

There are old homeschooling through a crisis threads here.  I suggest everyone read up on them before hitting a crisis because it makes the transition into crisis homeschooling much easier emotionally.

 

 

[Joanne]

IMO, time spent comforting the sick and dying is never time misspent.

 

It makes me ill to read things like *Grandma dying? Do school anyway.*

 

Indeed on the first sentence.

 

Over the years, I've seen homeschoolers support each other in lack of rigor, lack of consistency, of allowing religion to transcend and obscure adequately preparing children for a successful career. Dying family members was simply one place that showed up.

 

Kids schooled in b&m settings don't get extended time off for sick relatives  because learning gets missed. That is the reason for attendance policies, even though many homeschoolers want to throw out dollar signs around it.

 

Life (death, crisis, conception, birth...) happens all around us. Homeschoolers have not, IMO, done each other or our children a favor in gently allowing a "relaxed" or delayed approach to learning.

 

I'm not suggesting people "report" others but that the conversation happens and more homeschoolers do what others did for me: tell me to homeschool anyway. The posters who did that for me are for the most part not here anymore, but the need for the conversation they pioneered remains.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I am just not going to get on the bandwagon that says you aren't the real deal if you can't homeschool through any serious situation that hits your family like a cyclone.

 

I will say that I believe, with all my heart, that the children's safety, health and stability are paramount during these times and school is part of that. But why does it mean "keep homeschooling to the death?"

 

Why doesn't it mean "It's your job,along with your spouse, to figure it out -- depending on your situation and your own status, you might need to figure out how to modify homeschooling or you might need to enroll some kids in school -- consider the whole family's needs, including your own. Don't just tread water, and don't bury yourself by failing to recognize you need help."

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Keep taking care of your children's needs until they are raised, including their education, even during hard times. That's what good parents do, and it's not always, necessarily, the same as keep homeschooling.

[HS Mom in NC]

My point is, if you're going to homeschool (something I think is optional, not mandatory) there are people who have homeschooled through every crisis. You don't have to homeschool through a crisis  unless you insist on keeping your child home.  Then you have to. Choosing not to homeschool for an extended period of time while keeping them home and not making it up in a realistic time frame isn't an option. You cannot have it both ways: keeping them home and not schooling them. Don't want to homeschool through your crisis?  Then don't homeschool. That's OK. If you decide to enroll them in some sort of institutional setting, fine.  Don't apologize for that.