No School in Two Years

[Tsuga]

He certainly shares responsibility for both the homeschooling and the condition of the home.

 

He is part of the problem simply by not doing anything to remedy the situation. Who could turn a blind eye to moldy dishes??? :ack2:

 

Their livelihood depends on it.

 

You turn a blind eye to a lot.

 

Denial is powerful. 

[Catwoman]

Their livelihood depends on it.

 

You turn a blind eye to a lot.

 

Denial is powerful.

Yes, but if their livelihood depends on it, wouldn't they be mortified at the thought that someone might stop by the house unexpectedly and see all that filth? That would hardly be good for anyone's reputation, let alone a pastor who wants the respect of his congregation.

[Tanaqui]

But that's not how mandated reporter works. They're supposed to report suspicion and let the investigators determine whether or not it's occurred.

 

Exactly. That's why it's called being a mandated reporter, rather than an optional reporter.

 

[LucyStoner]

If you can't be bothered to wash your dishes to the point that maggots and mold are an issue, why wouldn't you just take to subsisting off of dry packaged foods eaten off of paper plates or napkins? Because. Gross.

 

I just can't even. I went to take out, easy foods eaten off paper plates when my mom was dying and I had a fragile newborn and was flattened by a mixture of grief, exhaustion and PTSD and PPD but holy heck, that was not a permanent arrangement. After my mom died, I paid a service to scrub that place clean and I got back on track. Because. Being an adult and being a parent requires people to get.it.done.

 

I've helped clean out a home that was in that state and it's never just the dishes. It's an actual health hazard to have kids around that. I have an iron stomach and I was on the verge of vomiting. I'm talking a sink with multiple colors of mold and a crockpot of what was once cheese dip before it started to do, well, to do what cheese dip left in a crockpot for like a month will do. Mold and maggots take awhile.

[albeto.]

Am I the only one who is more creeped out by moldy dishes in one woman's house and maggots in her friend's home than by the homeschooling situation?

No

[idnib]

Am I the only one who is more creeped out by moldy dishes in one woman's house and maggots in her friend's home than by the homeschooling situation?

 

Yes, there's a limit to "scientific investigations" for school.

 

Although, maybe she's managed to do the mummified chicken project, accidentally.  :ack2:

[LucyStoner]

Yes, but if their livelihood depends on it, wouldn't they be mortified at the thought that someone might stop by the house unexpectedly and see all that filth? That would hardly be good for anyone's reputation, let alone a pastor who wants the respect of his congregation.

My parents weren't ministers (they were Catholic for one) but they were heavily involved in church and volunteer endeavors and both rationalized a lot of mess in the home as being "lived in" and "living for a higher purpose than material comforts". I could see a minister's family doing the same. I've seen plenty of ministers and priests who were in the absent minded professor category, just not noticing or caring what their environ looks like.

[FO4UR]

 

I've helped clean out a home that was in that state and it's never just the dishes. It's an actual health hazard to have kids around that. I have an iron stomach and I was on the verge of vomiting. Mold and maggots take awhile.

 

 

I thought about the health hazard of kids in filth too.

 

I know how my 2yo is. She may eat off of the floor, but our crumbs are always less than 48 hrs old (typically 24hrs) and my 12yo mops at least 2x per week.  It makes me so sad to think about a 2yo in a home that bad b/c I know that babe is around stuff that's dangerous if not disgusting!  A new baby coming too!?!

 

 

This may be harsh, but I would want to ask her what she thinks she's teaching her kids!  She keeps them home protect them from the secular world, but then raises them in filth without the basic discipline to care for themselves or an education.

 

You have to model discipline in the mundane dishes and laundry, then teach the kids to do these things so that they can take care of themselves.  What is going to happen when they are 18yo?  They have no education. They don't know how to keep house.  They (probably) have no discipline to do anything they don't want to do. (Mommy doesn't make me write...I'm sure that carries over!) She's raising either monsters or victims...b/c people who can't take care of themselves have to either coerce others into taking care of them or live at the mercy of someone who "takes care" of them.

 

 

That is harsh, but it's reality. 

[Catwoman]

My parents weren't ministers (they were Catholic for one) but they were heavily involved in church and volunteer endeavors and both rationalized a lot of mess in the home as bing "lived in" and "living for a higher purpose than material comforts". I could see a minister's family doing the same. I've seen plenty of ministers that were in the absent minded professor catagory, just not noticing or caring what their environ looks like.

I can understand overlooking a messy house, but not when it has gotten to the point of moldy dishes. I can't fathom how anyone could rationalize that.

 

When I was growing up, I was friends with a few pastors' kids, and their homes were always as neat as a pin. I would think that there would have been a lot of gossip about them if their homes were even remotely like Chelli's friend's house.

[LucyStoner]

My brother who is a SAHD and super into volunteering also struggles at times with depression. He is all about the convenience foods to keep a clean enough kitchen. Individually sized things bought in mega cartons are like his lifesaver. That is what I would do if, for whatever reason, I found that I couldn't out wash the mold.

[LucyStoner]

I can understand overlooking a messy house, but not when it has gotten to the point of moldy dishes. I can't fathom how anyone could rationalize that.

 

When I was growing up, I was friends with a few pastors' kids, and their homes were always as neat as a pin. I would think that there would have been a lot of gossip about them if their homes were even remotely like Chelli's friend's house.

We humans can rationalize pretty much anything. Doesn't make it right, but we can do it. My parents generally didn't have anything growing in the kitchen, but it was pretty bad at times.

 

We always had priests that weren't married (as married Catholic priests are extremely rare) and it seemed many of them fit the absent minded untidy sterotype. Since a good chunk of their meals were eaten around with parishioners though and the churches generally had staff to clean, it wasn't anything that would get out of hand.

[mamakelly]

So now we aren't just talking about possible educational neglect. Maggots and mold? This is straight up neglect in my book, and I'm not one to cry wolf. This just seems like a pattern with the mom that probably won't get better without outside intervention.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yeah, the filth competition and breezy acceptance of vermin took this whole scenario to a whole other level for me, too. it's still bad that the kids' education is being neglected but now the health risks in these homes are even more shocking. The eldest is only ten. This is so wrong.

 

I would consider calling CPS in this case, if I were desperate to remain anonymous, unless I was willing to put myself on the line with this church affiliation and tell the elders that this family is in crisis. That's a BIG "unless."

 

A fake life online and on the lecture circuit, uneducated kids, filthy house, surrounding herself with Yes men...I think I'd consider this whole thing to be above my pay grade. I'd also be concerned about retaliation if I got involved, depending on what the church power structure is like.

 

If she seems untouchable in the church, don't risk your own family trying to protect her from the government.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Lucy Stoner, I cleaned houses for a living when I was young. I agree, it is never "just" moldy dishes. I have memories of pet feces, infestations, unwashed bathrooms, kids beds with no sheets or unwashed sheets, food trash in bedrooms...there's a list of stuff that always seemed to go together.

 

I can't know it about these women but I do know it was never just one filth issue when I was cleaning. Never.

[idnib]

I can understand overlooking a messy house, but not when it has gotten to the point of moldy dishes. I can't fathom how anyone could rationalize that.

 

When I was growing up, I was friends with a few pastors' kids, and their homes were always as neat as a pin. I would think that there would have been a lot of gossip about them if their homes were even remotely like Chelli's friend's house.

 

I knew some pastors' kids too and their houses were extremely neat and decluttered. Their kids were in school, though, which helps with the stuff in the house.

 

If I dropped in at a homeschooling house, I would overlook a lot. I get stressed about messes in my own house, but not in other homes. I would be fine with a couple of days' worth of dishes in the sink, breakfast still kind of on the table, a thin layer of dust, a floor that could use a sweeping, Lego everywhere, a science project on the sideboard, art supplies out, a cutting board with potato peels, a naked toddler with peanut butter in their hair, Mt. Washmore in a pile in the corner, kids in PJs at 3 pm, etc. All at once? Sure. But actual maggots? I'd nope right out of there. 

 

Of course, just to be clear we're talking about the friend of the friend of Chelli.

[Catwoman]

Lucy Stoner, I cleaned houses for a living when I was young. I agree, it is never "just" moldy dishes. I have memories of pet feces, infestations, unwashed bathrooms, kids beds with no sheets or unwashed sheets, food trash in bedrooms...there's a list of stuff that always seemed to go together.

 

I can't know it about these women but I do know it was never just one filth issue when I was cleaning. Never.

I can't imagine the problem begins and ends with the dirty dishes, either. If anything, I would suspect the rest of the house is even worse than the kitchen.

 

I would not want to see the bathrooms in those houses! :ack2:

[LucyStoner]

Lucy Stoner, I cleaned houses for a living when I was young. I agree, it is never "just" moldy dishes. I have memories of pet feces, infestations, unwashed bathrooms, kids beds with no sheets or unwashed sheets, food trash in bedrooms...there's a list of stuff that always seemed to go together.

 

I can't know it about these women but I do know it was never just one filth issue when I was cleaning. Never.

Yeah, if you are willing to live like that in the kitchen, it rarely is isolated to just one area. I was a house cleaner too once upon a time. If someone can't be bothered to wash their dishes, they likely can't be bothered to scrub the toilets or shower either. Because dishes are a daily habit. If you lack that, you are almost certainly lacking elsewhere.

 

This woman needs to learn that:

 

Charity starts at home.

 

If you mess up raising your kids, nothing else you do matters much. (poorly paraphrased from Jackie Kennedy)

 

You must take care of yourself (and taking care of yourself includes keeping a reasonably sanitary home) before you take care of others.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I can't imagine the problem begins and ends with the dirty dishes, either. If anything, I would suspect the rest of the house is even worse than the kitchen.

 

I would not want to see the bathrooms in those houses! :ack2:

My agency charged extra for "beyond reasonable wear" in these cases. Still wasn't enough pay.

[LucyStoner]

My agency charged extra for "beyond reasonable wear" in these cases. Still wasn't enough pay.

I worked on my own via word of mouth because I decided I wasn't doing the grosstastic periodic cleans that the agency would send us out on for 1/2 pay of what I could get cleaning for well off families who lived in pretty clean homes.

[Catwoman]

My agency charged extra for "beyond reasonable wear" in these cases. Still wasn't enough pay.

I agree. A person could get sick from trying to clean a house like that!

[hornblower]

Wait, I wanna change my vote.

Dishes you throw out because they're so gross? Friends with maggots? What? WHAT?

That's so far beyond the hippie ladidah flaky people I was envisioning that I don't even know what to say.

[Catwoman]

Wait, I wanna change my vote.

 

Dishes you throw out because they're so gross? Friends with maggots? What? WHAT?

 

That's so far beyond the hippie ladidah flaky people I was envisioning that I don't even know what to say.

The idea that those women were sitting around laughing about moldy dishes and maggots pretty much sent me over the edge, too.

 

I mean, seriously, who does that???

 

Yuck.

 

Just YUCK. :ack2:

[*****]

Since she mentioned it to you, I would say she is looking for feedback.  If she isn't doing anything, really this can be seen as neglect. Sorry to sound harsh, but I have tutored kids of this sort, who's mom "homeschooled" them but really didn't. One was going into high school, the other junior high. Everything, and I mean everything we touched upon to work on needed some type of prerequisite knowledge. They didn't have it and it was sad.  For example, in writing a sentence, I wanted it to be descriptive with good adjectives.  (Uh, what's an adjective? Then, uh, what's a noun?) Or when we worked on division, the basic multiplication facts weren't there. In the end, everything took much longer than needed as there was so much catching up to do. They were enrolled in school the following year and ended up needing special ed. help. It's a detriment to the child and a stigma to the rest of our kids because that is the impression people get of homeschoolers, that we do nothing at home.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have now convinced my husband based on this thread that I am an awesome housekeeper!  Who knew?  (I did just get the dishwasher running 3 minutes before midnight because I couldn't leave the dishes in the sink overnight after reading this thread.  But I'm not going to do the handwashing or the counters tonight because. . . midnight.  And I have to take ds to work before 7 am.  Good night!)  

[MedicMom]

Lucy Stoner, I cleaned houses for a living when I was young. I agree, it is never "just" moldy dishes. I have memories of pet feces, infestations, unwashed bathrooms, kids beds with no sheets or unwashed sheets, food trash in bedrooms...there's a list of stuff that always seemed to go together.

 

I can't know it about these women but I do know it was never just one filth issue when I was cleaning. Never.

I have seen this sadly more than once. I am a mandated reporter, and this level of filth gets reported. There is a huge difference between some dirty dishes on the table, piles of unfolded laundry and toys all over the floor and actual filth and health hazards. The latter gets reported to CPS; they make their determination from there.

 

It's likely mom just needs a little outside help. But she needs to get it. Those kids are being neglected in more ways than one.

[ByGrace3]

Because who the heck smiles and nods upon being told that children haven't been in school for two years? Only homeschoolers.

This. If a non homeschooling parent said, "I have only sent my child to school 3 times this year. I just don't have the energy to fight him to get up and get to school." Would we just smile and nod?

 

I have been faced with this dilemma. I have minded my own business in some situations. I have offered compassion and concern in others. When I did not give the just agree with me response I faced some push back. You know which situation I regret? Not saying anything.

 

Speaking as an aunt who is currently remediating a 15 yo nephew who has not been schooled in 4-5 years. I implore all of you for the sake of the children-- do NOT mind your own business. Be loving, be kind, but BE HONEST. Don't just smile and nod and offer silent support for educational neglect. What about the children? What about the lack of self confidence and self esteem that follows an older child that can't read or write well, or can't multiply at 15? They deserve for us to at least not support their suffering with silent approval.

[Rivka]

I need to read more threads like this one and fewer threads like the one about the cleaning lady who didn't do the top of the fridge. I'm feeling so much better about the stacks of books and the occasional drifts of dog hair. We may have cave crickets in the basement sometimes, but NEVER EVER have I seen a maggot.

[kiana]

I need to read more threads like this one and fewer threads like the one about the cleaning lady who didn't do the top of the fridge. I'm feeling so much better about the stacks of books and the occasional drifts of dog hair. We may have cave crickets in the basement sometimes, but NEVER EVER have I seen a maggot.

 

Every time my apartment starts depressing me because I'm just not a good housekeeper, I watch an episode of Hoarders.

[chiguirre]

Chelli, I'm sorry you're in such a bad position. It's really rough. I don't know what you should do and I fear you're going to get a lot of backlash irl no matter what you decide. All for a situation you had no role in creating or abetting.

 

:grouphug:

[Katy]

This is abusive educational neglect.  I would make sure she knows that, and the danger she's putting both her children and her husband's career in by not educating them.  What kind of pastor lets their family be the focus of a CPS investigation?  I would spell that out, very bluntly, and do the same to him.  How would his board feel about his neglect of his own family?  I don't know many church boards who wouldn't give him some sort of discipline for that sort of thing.

 

I'm no longer a mandated reporter, but if I were you unless there was a very good reason for those kids not going to a public school (something like living on the South side of Chicago and gang violence, NOT an objection to liberal schooling ideas), If the pastor understood the situation and HE did nothing, I'd contact CPS and let them know.  It is not okay for a ten year old to be illiterate.  This is the kind of thing that gives homeschoolers a bad name.

[unsinkable]

Many people living in squalor have a mental illness.

 

As Chelli has provided more info, I'm not sure what I could do...living hours away from them...the additional circumstances (effort given to an outside ministry)...potential squalor...

 

I know I wouldn't NOT do something but I'm not sure what I would do.

[Haiku]

the parents scribe for the kids

 

I used to be very much on the "anything homeschoolers do at home with their kids is better than school" side of things.

 

I no longer believe that.

 

My son has learning disabilities. He is thriving. But in some respects, he is academically delayed. And I see how it affects him and could continue to affect him if we weren't taking steps to address it. He meets with a tutor. He uses software designed to remediate dyslexic kids. I work intensively with him. And I still worry.

 

How long can a parent scribe for their kid?

 

I mean that in a more general sense. For how long can parents provide a buffer between their kids and what they simply have to learn before it comes to the point that the child is simply disadvantaged? My son listens to about 5-7 audiobooks a week on his Nook. That's awesome. But if he can't read proficiently, that's beside the point. My son types up or hand-writes all sorts of little stories that he makes up. That's great. But if he gets laughed at by other kids for his poor spelling and handwriting, his creativeness at home doesn't make up for the deficit of skills.

 

I get very nervous when I see people talking about their kids just being "late," because for several years I believed the hype and convinced myself (and my husband) that our son would get there on his own time. I finally faced the truth that my son has some learning disabilities. He would never just get there on his own. And I lost some valuable time to help him. And he lost self-esteem.

 

As regards the situation the OP put forth, it will not help homeschooling and homeschoolers to turn a blind eye to people who are not educating their kids. Homeschooling has long been highly regarded due to its academic rigor. I feel that we are in danger of losing that regard if we allow people to use "homeschooling" as a cover for "doing nothing." And it doesn't help the children who emerge unprepared to forge a comfortable life of their own. I'm uncomfortable with the amount of MYOB I see when people post that they are witnessing educational neglect. People should not be encouraged to neglect their kids' education.

[Katy]

I just wanted to add that if/when a complaint made to CPS is founded (meaning a social worker agrees a valid complaint was made), more than likely the children won't be taken away.  The family will be put in a program to avoid having the children taken away.  They will clean up the house and educate the children.  And if they don't, won't, or can't, then a judge decides whether repeated noncompliance warrents foster care or not. Not the mandatory reporter, who MUST report on even only a suspicion that there MIGHT be abuse going on.

 

Oftentimes if a child is older than 8, they aren't going to be removed from a home even if it's filthy.  Because a child that age could clean themselves (yes, I heard this from CPS once when I was a mandatory reporter and called to report a horder family that was doing meth in the home with their nine year old).

[FO4UR]

 

 

How long can a parent scribe for their kid?

 

I mean that in a more general sense. For how long can parents provide a buffer between their kids and what they simply have to learn before it comes to the point that the child is simply disadvantaged? My son listens to about 5-7 audiobooks a week on his Nook. That's awesome. But if he can't read proficiently, that's beside the point. My son types up or hand-writes all sorts of little stories that he makes up. That's great. But if he gets laughed at by other kids for his poor spelling and handwriting, his creativeness at home doesn't make up for the deficit of skills.

 

 

 

 

This deserves its own thread. I love how you phrased this!

 

 

I've got a dyslexic, probably 2, but my younger one benefited from my having taught his older brother.  I put hours, days, weeks, YEARS, into studying how to teach my child to read.  Homeschooling is #1 for kids who have parents who sacrifice for their benefit.  Yes, my dyslexic is still a slower reader. Yes, his spelling is atrocious. And, he's a reluctant writer b/c he's self-conscious about his spelling. But he's got a mom who spends at least some time every.single.weekend thinking through how to make the next week's lessons prod him along further/better/faster in skill.  He may always have some deficits b/c of his dyslexia, but it won't be for not trying on my part or his.  And, as he gets older my focus is shifting to teaching him how to think through coping for himself.  He's learning to use Dragon Naturally Speaking b/c I think that is how he might get himself through college. It's not the end of his LA learning, but it's a piece of the pie. He's an intelligent kid. 

 

 

These kids can do very well, on a later time-table, with much tutoring, mentoring, discipline and love.  Charlotte Mason's original writings about how to teach LA skills done 1-3 years "late" seem to fit for my dyslexic. Nan in Mass has some wonderful posts about how she taught her boys to write!

 

 

All this said, I'm thinking that if the OP's friend's 10yo is dyslexic, he needs to be out of the current school day environment asap.  He needs extensive and intensive tutoring in an atmosphere where the teacher values education.  Could *I* homeschool a child like this and catch him up? Yes. Can a mom who doesn't have any motivation? No.

[Runningmom80]

Nevermind, I didn't read the whole thread.

[73349]

I don't know that I'd conclude the 10yo has any kind of special needs--you can't really tell whether the lack of progress is just from a lack of instruction at this point. If he does, he might not ever catch up to average, but he has a better chance if she will do something ASAP.

 

The new baby is the perfect excuse for the mom to drop the public work and really settle in and focus on her own family for a few years. Especially if this is not going to be her last--she is only going to have the oldest at home for 8 more years, so she needs to either find a way to make homeschooling work with little ones around, or find a nice Christian school, or something. She may roll her eyes at someone else's expectations for an elementary-age kid, but when he's 15 and wants his learner's permit, it's no joke if he can't read the test questions.

 

Chelli, if you can convey to her that she can be a role model for other women by setting other things aside right now and putting her efforts into her own family for this season, that might be a viewpoint she'd take seriously.

[athomeontheprairie]

Mandated reporters don't have that luxury. They have to report. If they don't report, they could go to jail. Since the OP's husband is a pastor, I am wondering if he is a mandated reporter. He would be in my state.

Same here, and our church does not simply employ the pastor , his wife was also interviewed. Together they pastor the church, though they only receive one paycheck. She then is also a mandated reporter.

 

given that she is so far away from you, and that both of your husbands teach within the church, do you have someone above you and your husband that you can call and speak with on the matter? her church should be held accountable! perhaps someone who is over both of you can help her? Or get her the help they need?

[KungFuPanda]

This thread got gross fast! I agree that it's naive and a little weird to say that all homeschooling is better than all B&M schooling. It's just not. You have to have some sense of order OR provide an enriching environment for learning to occur. A child who is watching TV all day, or even playing Legos all day for years will be behind by age ten. The good news is that ten is not to late to play catch up and be high school ready.

 

I think traditional schooling (at school or home) is a good, solid, safe way to go. I also think that some families are definitely cut out to do the unschooling thing really well. The OPs friend is simply NOT educating her kid. She's floundering. She needs an intervention and real friends who won't simply MYOB because it's less time consuming. I actually don't get the poster who stressed repeatedly that she didn't have TIME. I mean, you're WITH the friend having a conversation. You've already blocked out that time.

 

This woman needs a friend who will say "This is not right. This is not homeschooling. This is not healthy." The friend has options other than sinking deeper into despair. A week shoveling out her house followed by learning to make and keep a schedule could really turn it around. A year or six months of public school for the oldest could give her time to figure things out. A co-op might keep her on track and accountable enough to get into the swing of things. Anti-depressants could be the answer. I really see the conversation with the OP as a cry for help.

[brehon]

I think you should need more than a personal suspicion to warrant reporting a family for abuse or neglect.

Sorry, Cat, that's what a mandated reporter is - someone who is legally bound to report suspicions of abuse/neglect to the appropriate agency. I don't investigate, seek confirmation, look for solid evidence, or anything else. That's CPS' or APS' job.

 

I kinda like my job and feeding my family; so, I'll continue to follow the law.

[fairfarmhand]

"We haven't homeschooled in 2 year."

 

"Wow! What do you think is the problem? Are the materials boring? Are you struggling with where to start? I'd love to brainstorm with you about how to fix the situation."

 

"I just can't seem to get it done."

 

"Well, what specific things come up to interfere? Because I know as a homeschooler myself, there are always things that come up, but I end up just having to make school a priority. I feel that it's unfair to just not let my kids do school long term. I want them prepared for life, both academically and with the character to sit down and do unpleasant tasks."

 

Then you can have a frank discussion about the pitfalls that she's facing.

 

I find that people take things better when I frame them in terms of my own struggles.

 

Perhaps a boxed curriculum feels too disjointed, so she needs a checklist of "Math, English, Spelling, etc" every day.

 

I would offer to meet with her once a week to help her stay accountable. Kind of like thost weight loss groups. There's nothing wrong with needing accountability.

 

Where's Dad in this situation? I know my dh would be livid if my kids hadn't really done school for years.

 

I do think that you can't judge where they are by just the phrase "We haven't done school for 2 years." However, the trick is to probe without being nosy and express yourself firmly but kindly.

[MomatHWTK]

OP said she only sees the woman a few times a year and they live around 7 hours apart.  I am assuming they met up at some recurring conference and had lunch with the third woman. 

 

As to what I would say,  I wouldn't even blink before saying "Wow aren't you afraid CPS will intervene?"  Not because I'm threatening to report, but I would definitely be concerned even in my very lenient state that if my child told someone I'd be getting a visit.  And the dirty dishes, I'd probably say the same thing.  If I offered advice it would be "If you can't teach, get an online program, plug the kids in to get it done.  Put everyone on a chores rotation.  Then go get yourself some help."   

 

 

[momacacia]

I shouldn't have caught up on this thread while eating my bagel and cream cheese for breakfast. Yuck!

[zoobie]

Wait, is this your pastor and his wife? I can't imagine his being able to lead a church when his home is filled with maggots, moldy dishes, and uneducated children. And instead of dealing with his family's issues, he's just throwing away dishes and making more children? What would the church do if another family were neglecting their children in this manner? My parents' former pastor needed some mental health treatment after his wife suddenly passed away from cancer. The deacons intervened, helped get him treatment, the church cleaned his house and stocked his fridge, etc., but they made it very clear he needed to get his own house in order before returning to a church leadership position. And there were no minor children involved! Why isn't the church concerned about this family, even more so given it is the pastor's family?

 

 

 

 

Anyone else cleaning a little more thoroughly this morning?

[unsinkable]

Sorry, Cat, that's what a mandated reporter is - someone who is legally bound to report suspicions of abuse/neglect to the appropriate agency. I don't investigate, seek confirmation, look for solid evidence, or anything else. That's CPS' or APS' job.

 

I kinda like my job and feeding my family; so, I'll continue to follow the law.

In my state, a mandated reporter is a professional and the MR has to have a reasonable suspicion that abuse has occurred. So if a MR sees a child with a black eye, the MR can ask, "what happened to your eye?"

 

If the child's answer doesn't seem reasonable to the MR, that is all that is needed.

 

A MR wouldn't see a child with a black eye and be legally obligated to make a report.

 

In this particular case, before all the other information was given, if a MR was told they haven't homeschooled in 2 years, it would be a natural follow up to ask, "what do you mean?"

 

If Chelli's friend said that to her doc, I don't think the doc would walk out and called CPS without asking a follow up question.

[texasmama]

CPS typically substantiates reports and becomes involved (short term, at least) when the physical conditions of the home represent a health or safety hazard to the children.  This might be animal feces on the floor, no electricity, rotting food where toddlers could eat it, dirty diapers sitting open on the floor, etc.  When I was an investigator in the early 90s, I substantiated an investigation in which the home was completely infested with fleas to the point that the child was eaten up with bites.  When I went into the home, I could see fleas jumping from the carpet, and I suggested that we conduct the remainder of the interview outside. 

 

Mandated reporters must report a suspicion of child abuse or neglect.  I have reported many things that were not even investigated.  My responsibility was fulfilled, though.  As a mandated reporter, I take seriously the responsibility, both to the child and to the family.  I do not have the luxury of not reporting due to the fear that "foster care is worse than what they are currently experiencing".  As someone who has been on the inside of the foster care system for many years and peripherally involved in it for longer, I know that CPS is more likely to not investigate reports I wish they would rather than bring out the big guns for people with dirty dishes and no schoolwork and yank the kids out of the home and into foster care. 

 

CPS does not exist to promote anyone's standards.  It exists to keep kids from dying (due to physical abuse or neglect) and away from environments in which sexual abuse is occurring.  Many factors go into determining if a report is even investigated, including the age of the child.  Different counties act differently due to resources available.  In my experience, CPS is more likely to underreact than to overreact, but the agency gets bad press for both. 

[albeto.]

It seems to me there are two things to consider here. One is the freedom and subsequent responsibility of homeschooling, the other is this specific situation. In this specific situation, I would say nothing. I'm with Cat here in that I can't imagine there's much about this woman with which I could relate, if these stories of hers are to be believed on their face value. There are all kinds of people in this world, and we can't fix 'em all, and I'd be willing to bet this woman doesn't want fixing (which any intervention would likely feel like, as I assume from her complete comfort with sharing these disgusting habits with people). So I wouldn't bother because I don't think anything good would come of it, and I would rather spend my time and energy on those for whom I have admiration, respect, and find joyful to be around.

But I don't know if in the great state of Texas children have a right to education as much as parents have a right to raise their children as they see fit. If this woman is raising her children to go to heaven not Harvard, I suspect she'd have the support to do just that. After all, the children have a greater right to know Jesus and be saved, don't tread on me, don't tell me what to do, you're not my real mom, etc etc etc.

I have to imagine throwing away maggot infested dishes is hyperbole, and that she's trying to downplay her housekeeping skills. Perhaps she saw a creepy bug, made a comment once, got laughs, and repeats for the sake of the story. I've never been to Texas, but in hotter, dryer climates, it's not unusual for insects to completely disregard a someone's personal boundaries and make camp in the shelter of a human-built house.

But ultimately, what can the OP do? She lives 6-7 hours away. Nagging will only alienate her, and the friend is savvy enough to run a blog and be invited to speak, so she already knows the score. She knows how homeschooling is supposed to run. You can't be a homeschooler and be familiar with the internet, read and run blogs, and not come across how this is supposed to work. My thoughts run towards this person thinking she's being funny or relatable to others. If she's a public speaker, then not coming across as holier than thou will have much more positive results than the other way. If she's a minister's wife, it's not inconceivable she uses this as a segue to remind her audience that no matter how overwhelmed they get in this life ("Honey, I had bugs all over my dishes once, we had to throw them all away! Ewww!"), Jesus will still love them and prepare a sooper clean mansion for them in the next. This is just a guess, I have no idea what she speaks about of course.

 Helping a friend out who wants help is kind and considerate. Calling CPS because a friend who lives 6 hours away made a comment about bugs is overkill. It's micromanaging, condescending, and unnecessarily intrusive. I would MYOB only because I would imagine the friend is just venting/making conversation, or is totally screwy. In either case, I wouldn't get involved with this unless I was paid a handsome fee. Life it too short to fix people who don't want fixing.

[SKL]

I can understand overlooking a messy house, but not when it has gotten to the point of moldy dishes. I can't fathom how anyone could rationalize that.

 

I've had a few times when working on a massive deadline, when stuff would pile up in the sink and get smelly, or be forgotten in the fridge and get moldy.  The thing is, these ladies make it sound like that is their life all the time.  But then again, I can't help thinking this is hyperbole.  I can't imagine anyone actually living like that and being proud of it.  I can imagine people getting overwhelmed, but they would be quiet about it, or reaching out for help.

 

My family's style of humor involves a lot of hyperbole.  My mom always said our house was a "pigsty" even though it was cleaned from top to bottom every weekend (and the kitchen was cleaned at least 2x per day).

[Tsuga]

Everyone has leftovers that get moldy in the fridge (right? I mean we are nowhere near what OP seems to describe but every few weeks we have moldy something to toss out).

 

I think the overall picture is concerning.

 

The not-writing-a-sentence at 10 is concerning.

 

SKL, my mom also used to say our house was horrid and nobody could see it. Now I realize she said that to motivate herself (though she could have had more guests over...)

 

 

[hornblower]

 

 

My family's style of humor involves a lot of hyperbole. 

 

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping. I want to translate

"gross dishes thrown out" to "that time last September when the one casserole dish that nobody liked (you know, the one with the sucky blue flowers on it) got accidentally left in the oven with some food still in it & the oven was turned on to preheat the next day & the stuff burned on so hard that it would have taken a week to clean off & really, it was just better to throw it out."

 

"No school in two years" means "stuff is getting done but most days something that I'd planned is left off the schedule because I keep cramming in too much. Ooops, didn't get art done today. Do it on Friday. Push the seed planting science thing to Monday. & so on" &  "Sometimes I worry about them being at appropriate level."

 

I don't want to think about if the woman is actually serious.

 

OP, do you know her well enough to have a sense of her personal humor & style to assess whether this is dramatic hyperbole or reality?

[Chelli]

I've had a few times when working on a massive deadline, when stuff would pile up in the sink and get smelly, or be forgotten in the fridge and get moldy.  The thing is, these ladies make it sound like that is their life all the time.  But then again, I can't help thinking this is hyperbole.  I can't imagine anyone actually living like that and being proud of it.  I can imagine people getting overwhelmed, but they would be quiet about it, or reaching out for help.

 

My family's style of humor involves a lot of hyperbole.  My mom always said our house was a "pigsty" even though it was cleaned from top to bottom every weekend (and the kitchen was cleaned at least 2x per day).

 

I don't think it's hyperbole. I've actually been in her house. She had to have her dh wash dishes just so she could serve us. I am definitely not a great housekeeper, but even I was shocked at the state of her kitchen especially since she knew we were coming over and had all day to get ready for us. We showed up at dinner time.

 

I will definitely be contacting her today to start this conversation. I don't know if anything I say or do will help, but I've got to say/do something. It's been bugging me for three weeks now since we talked.