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No School in Two Years


Chelli

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But she already did bring it up--more than once.

 

(This isn't directed at the poster I quoted but applies to the general discussion.) The woman has candidly shared her concerns and given the OP examples of her struggles with homeschooling. I'm curious what actual wording the MYOB posters would wait for before they'd be willing to do more than smile and say nothing. This isn't gossip or a case of differing parenting methods. It's a friend who has acknowledged she is struggling.

 

I"m also wondering if those who say MYOB would say the same if the mother had expressed concerns that her kids' educational needs weren't being met in a public or private school.  I'm guessing most would be pretty quick to bash the school.

 

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But she already did bring it up--more than once.

 

(This isn't directed at the poster I quoted but applies to the general discussion.) The woman has candidly shared her concerns and given the OP examples of her struggles with homeschooling. I'm curious what actual wording the MYOB posters would wait for before they'd see it as their business and be willing to do more than smile and say nothing. This isn't gossip or a case of differing parenting methods. It's a friend who has acknowledged she is struggling.

I agree but I think there has to be more investigation into why she's struggling.  If she has PPD or another kind of depression then working with her on a schedule won't help because her depression will keep her from being able to follow through on it.  If she has executive function issues then working with her on a schedule can help.  If she really has a rich learning environment but isn't doing formal school and feels guilty about it due to societal expectations then some reassurance can be in order.  If her son has a LD, then being redirected to getting a neuropsych evaluation and some specific help will be much more helpful than a lecture on how she should push him more.  If she's just overwhelmed with all her tasks then maybe a maid service is a good suggestion while she concentrates on school.  If schooling just isn't a priority for her, then putting her kids in p.s. might be the best advice.  

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I agree but I think there has to be more investigation into why she's struggling.  If she has PPD or another kind of depression then working with her on a schedule won't help because her depression will keep her from being able to follow through on it.  If she has executive function issues then working with her on a schedule can help.  If she really has a rich learning environment but isn't doing formal school and feels guilty about it due to societal expectations then some reassurance can be in order.  If her son has a LD, then being redirected to getting a neuropsych evaluation and some specific help will be much more helpful than a lecture on how she should push him more.  If she's just overwhelmed with all her tasks then maybe a maid service is a good suggestion while she concentrates on school.  If schooling just isn't a priority for her, then putting her kids in p.s. might be the best advice.  

 

I agree with all of that and don't think there's a clear-cut solution. I just object to the notion that this is none of the OP's business so she should keep her thoughts to herself and not even attempt to offer help or advice.

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I am with the "It's not a MYOB issue" crowd. That is educational neglect, by her standards as well as any other standards. In terms of the effect on the child, whether the cause is ppd, other depression, or just not having her act together, the effect is still  that a 10 year old is being deprived of an education and future choices are being pruned. So it has to be addressed ASAP with an effective solution. She is not a single parent. There is a father in the picture who could help either make the decision or help to do the schooling if she is depressed and stuck for that reason.

 

If it were me, I would be bottom-lining the issue: the child must be educated. It is not okay that that is not happening. How can you get that done, friend? What can I do to help? What keeps you from homeschooling? What keeps you from public school? Can I help you with accountablity if you still choose to homeschool? Can I help debunk the "public school is a big, hairy monster" myth? Check out Homeschoolers Anonymous for how kids feel when they grow up if they were deprived of an education through not being educated while being homeschooled. That may provide her some motivation. Parents lose their kids' hearts permanently that way. The kids don't grow up and say, "Gee I wasn't educated and now I can't find employment, do not fit into society anywhere,  but mom and dad had good intentions, so no prob." They are angry.

 

If she decides to place her child in school, it doesn't need to be permanent. She could place her 10 year old in school until she can get her act together. (It will be hard for him because he is so far behind. He may not qualify for special assistance because educational neglect is not a learning disability. However, most teachers would work really hard to try to help him. What will be embarassing for him is the other children knowing.)

 

I understand why you're angry. This is injustice toward the child.

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Chelli,

 

I do think she looks up to you and sees you as someone who can help her. I only "know" you thru here and your blog and I see you that way, too. :-)

 

I would very gently tease out what she IS doing and then help her come up with a bare minimum plan. Reading, writing and math. Help her organize those subjects. Put everything in one milk crate or dishpan or on one shelf. She'd need very few resources to cover these subjects.

 

I'd also try to address the issues of why things AREN'T working, whether it is a learning problem for the children or depression for her. But I truly think that she could successfully do the "three R's" for a while (with some support) and get into a rhythm, along with getting to the roots of the problems.

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maybe it's because I live in hard core unschooling land, or maybe it's because i have very late to read kids who also struggled with writing - but for me this isn't dinging the warning bells you all hear. 

I know lots of kids who were not reading or writing at anywhere near the 'appropriate' age & if in school they would have been labelled & intervened up the ying yang. But as homeschoolers, they're thriving.

And the families are doing stuff. The kids are engaged, have hobbies, the parents read out loud until they lose their voices, there are audio books, the parents scribe for the kids, the kids draw diagrams, or paint pictures or make dioramas of their projects. There is science and art and field trips and visits to museums and learning to grow a garden and learning to start a fire in the woods and soccer and board game weekends etc.

Some of these kids are quirky and grow up into quirky teens but they're not neglected. 

I live in a region where we do not have to meet any state standards either ... total freedom.

Elementary reading & math can be taught in a relatively short time  ime. High school math takes longer but these kids are nowhere near that. I've never really clicked with unschooling but honestly even I think that a large chunk of Gr1-7 is  something you can accomplish in a few months once the kids is around 11-12 --- so LONG as the child has also had tons of real life learning/rich environment prior to that.

So I keep coming back to - what is the family doing? What does she want them to be doing? What do the kids want to achieve?

 

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She made it your business. Talk with her to find out what the problem is. Tell her clearly that what is happening currently (if she's not an unschooler after all) is unacceptable, illegal, and will not turn out all right in the end. But do so as kindly as you can and with the intent to help her with the root problem because that's what friends do.

 

So...a kick in the butt, but also an arm to lean on. She needs to hear the truth.

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In Colombia, the 10 year old might be taken away from her, by CPS, because education is one of the rights of children in Colombia. Depending upon where you live, the law may or may not permit what she is doing (or not doing).

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It's disturbing to me that so many people would just nod and say nothing. Do our freedoms as homeschoolers really depend on keeping our mouths firmly shut no matter what another homeschooler does? I would argue the opposite.

 

Children have a right to an education. If homeschoolers don't acknowledge that - if we dig in and say that children don't have a right to anything their parents don't choose to give them - then the public is going to step in on behalf of neglected children, and regulate us further.

 

This.

 

Children do have rights. They are not our property to treat however we wish. They have the right to food, shelter, and physical safety. They have the right to have access to both medical care and basic educational opportunities.

 

This is not a MYOB situation. If the mother says she has not done any schooling in 2 years . . . if the mother says her neurotypical 10-yr-old cannot write a single sentence in Sunday School . . . if the mother is seeking validation from the op that everything will magically work itself out . . . then the op does have a responsibility to do something. That something may be simply saying, "I know you love your children, but as a friend, I must say that not schooling for 2 years is a cause for concern. A 10-yr-old unable to write a sentence is also a cause for concern. You have a responsibility to provide your children with an education either at home, at a religious school, or at your local public school. I love you and want to assist in any way I can. How can I help you to improve this situation?"

 

Sometimes, especially in religious communities, people tiptoe around issues like this. Who wants to be the person who criticizes the pastor's wife? She may have never had someone lovingly speak up and offer help. She has reached out to you; now is the time to say something. You can't control how she reacts, but you owe it to those children to speak up on their behalf.

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I"m also wondering if those who say MYOB would say the same if the mother had expressed concerns that her kids' educational needs weren't being met in a public or private school.  I'm guessing most would be pretty quick to bash the school.

 

 

I don't see the correlation, but if a friend said that she didn't think her children's educational needs were being met at school, I'd nod and say "huh." She'd know that I was a homeschooler and if she wanted actual advice, I'd give it to her. Otherwise, I would probably not comment. Why would you imagine that we would "bash" the school?

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This.

 

Children do have rights. They are not our property to treat however we wish. They have the right to food, shelter, and physical safety. They have the right to have access to both medical care and basic educational opportunities.

 

This is not a MYOB situation. If the mother says she has not done any schooling in 2 years . . . if the mother says her neurotypical 10-yr-old cannot write a single sentence in Sunday School . . . if the mother is seeking validation from the op that everything will magically work itself out . . . then the op does have a responsibility to do something. That something may be simply saying, "I know you love your children, but as a friend, I must say that not schooling for 2 years is a cause for concern. A 10-yr-old unable to write a sentence is also a cause for concern. You have a responsibility to provide your children with an education either at home, at a religious school, or at your local public school. I love you and want to assist in any way I can. How can I help you to improve this situation?"

 

Sometimes, especially in religious communities, people tiptoe around issues like this. Who wants to be the person who criticizes the pastor's wife? She may have never had someone lovingly speak up and offer help. She has reached out to you; now is the time to say something. You can't control how she reacts, but you owe it to those children to speak up on their behalf.

 

Really? A "responsibility"? Huh.

 

So much of my response to a friend in a similar situation would depend on my relationship to the friend, and what her specific comments to me were. Not sure I would put anything in the category of "my responsibility." 

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I think she brings it up because she wants me to tell her that it will all work out. I do not tell her that, but honestly I don't know what to say. After our first conversation about it two years ago, it is hard for me to continue to give helpful suggestions when I feel that the root of the problem is that she just flat out isn't doing it. At some point suggestions don't help, you just have to pull yourself out of bed everyday and say that you're doing some kind of school that day even if it's just a math worksheet and reading a book. This time she mentioned having me come up to help organize her homeschool and I would gladly do that, but I have a feeling that in a couple more years we'd be having the same conversation. She is just that personality type; wonderful with ideas and excitement, but not so great at implementation.

 

I guess, ultimately, I'm trying to think of a way to show my concern for what's happening without losing a friend. That is the source of my frustration/anger is fear of the fallout if I'm completely honest with her when she tells me these things.

As you describe this, no, I would not go to any special lengths to help her put things in order. If it were me, I would be ready to simply say, "The main thing that makes hsing work in my family is just getting up every day with the decision to DO it. It's not really about how organized the room is or whether or not the curriculum is ideal. It's just the daily chipping away at math, at reading, and so on, that gets it done."

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...

And the families are doing stuff. The kids are engaged, have hobbies, the parents read out loud until they lose their voices, there are audio books, the parents scribe for the kids, the kids draw diagrams, or paint pictures or make dioramas of their projects. There is science and art and field trips and visits to museums and learning to grow a garden and learning to start a fire in the woods and soccer and board game weekends etc.

 

....

 

So I keep coming back to - what is the family doing? What does she want them to be doing? What do the kids want to achieve?

 

 

 

You are describing unschooling. The OP described none of this, only that her friend says she hasn't done school in 2 years, and it doesn't sound as if the woman herself is comfortable with it. I think that's what the difference is. If the child is really learning and growing, all is well, but I think it's very significant that the *mother* says she's not done school in 2 years. *She* is not doing what she thinks she should be doing. *She* is not meeting her *own* minimal goals. There actually are homeschooling families who do nothing, really nothing, and their kids have a really hard time making it later. I think this is a call for validation and/or help. She didn't give the OP anything to validate.

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I don't see the correlation, but if a friend said that she didn't think her children's educational needs were being met at school, I'd nod and say "huh." She'd know that I was a homeschooler and if she wanted actual advice, I'd give it to her. Otherwise, I would probably not comment. Why would you imagine that we would "bash" the school?

 

If my friend said to me, "he hasn't learned to read. He can't write two sentences, he's never been evaluated, and they don't even know if he has a disability" about their child in public school, I'd be getting on that.

 

I would say, "We are going to call the principal tomorrow. This is insane. I'm taking a day off work. Call the school. In fact I'm taking off Monday and I'm going with you while you go to make the appointment, and if they blow you off, we are going to the superintendent's office. This is unacceptable. Your son needs to learn to read. This is his LIFE. And if you refuse, I myself will go to that school. He has a right to an education in this country and by darned we WILL be getting him this education."

 

This is not a question of bashing a school. It is a question of what action to take to ensure that every child has access to an education that will help him reach his potential as a human being.

 

I don't monitor other people's kids. But when they tell me that their child facing real issues and they need help, I will support them.

 

 

 

I know lots of kids who were not reading or writing at anywhere near the 'appropriate' age & if in school they would have been labelled & intervened up the ying yang. But as homeschoolers, they're thriving.

 

I think it is wonderful that children can have a tailored education without labels and interventions.

 

That is not what OP is describing. She is not describing a mom whose dysgraphic/dyslexic son is still not reading but who is developing a passion for mechanics through hands on work in the garage and who is slowly learning to read by learning to read instructions. That is not what she's describing at all.

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Also, re the law. I live in PA with its big oversight on homeschoolers, and even here, you could game the system. It's possible. Our law is vague in some areas and oddly loose in some. You could be a lazy sort of unschooler (and I say that knowing that there are very good ways to unschool) and still manage to represent things well enough to meet the letter of the law. And in less restrictive states, it'd be even easier to do nothing educational. So I don't think that's really a good indication, whether they've fulfilled the law.

 

I do think the OP needs to address why the mom feels that she hasn't done school. Maybe she means they haven't done formal schooling, but her kids are happily engrossing themselves in science books from the library, history documentaries, running around outside building forts, and making LEGO stop action movies. In that case, I think the OP could reassure Mom that things look better than she thinks, and maybe she could give her some ideas on getting to the skills that aren't being met by their version of unschooling (like an older kid not being able to read). Or maybe Mom realizes they're playing video games all day and aren't challenging themselves to learn and work, and maybe Mom needs a gentle kick in the behind and some organizational assistance that she can't give herself.

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I would tell the mother point blank that if she was looking for approval she needed to move on, and please not to continue sharing with me. Harsh? Sounds like it. BUT, I have been promoted to a position within 4-H that while technically volunteer, still leaves me as a quasi legal reporter in which I could make things bad for my program director if I didn't report it.

 

The reality is that though Michigan is a non registering/reporting state, there is a significant homeschooling statute and in that statute it is stated that parents and guardians are to every year address, math, language arts including writing/penmanship/spelling, reading, science, history, civics/social studies. It isn't actually ambiguous. So either one needs to use curriculum fairly consistently or one needs to have STRUCTURED unschooling. Doing nothing is actually illegal. I would be in a difficult position, and since I have no intention of putting my own homeschooling under scrutiny in order to MYOB about another, I would report this family. That says a lot because really, it would take a lot for me to report...were any mathematics and reading being pursued through hands on experiences, audio books, library trips, actual life experiences that required the student to master some math, etc., were there signs of thoughtful unschooling, I would keep it to myself. Do nothing would end in a phone call.

 

Children are not property. They are not things. They are living humans who will some day have to fend for themselves in this world and they have a fundamental right to be educated to the best of their natural abilities including academics as well as life skills. Some come farther than others. A zero sum effort, and general parental failure is NOT an option because it can prevent them from moving forward in the future, and create bitter adults unhappy about how few options are available to them.

 

I reject the fundamental notion that the PS is so darn bad that the mere act of keeping children at home is some how magically better. It is a myth that should not be perpetuated. PS students are still occupying the bulk of the top spots in good colleges and uni's, trade schools, art schools, service academies, etc. across the United States and that is not because all PS's everywhere are so abysmally awful that no one can learn.

 

I understand that many people do not believe that. But, it is the truth.

 

In other countries, this would be a very, very serious offense. This is one of the only industrialized nations in which children do not have fundamental, protected human rights.

 

The mother needs to get assistance with her own issues and enroll her children in school, or get it going at home. I am not unsympathetic, but feelings of compassion for the parent cannot trump the education of the children when the situation is clearly not a temporary one.

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I don't see the correlation, but if a friend said that she didn't think her children's educational needs were being met at school, I'd nod and say "huh." She'd know that I was a homeschooler and if she wanted actual advice, I'd give it to her. Otherwise, I would probably not comment. Why would you imagine that we would "bash" the school?

 

Because it's such a common occurrence here.

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This.

 

Children do have rights. They are not our property to treat however we wish. They have the right to food, shelter, and physical safety. They have the right to have access to both medical care and basic educational opportunities.

 

This is not a MYOB situation. If the mother says she has not done any schooling in 2 years . . . if the mother says her neurotypical 10-yr-old cannot write a single sentence in Sunday School . . . if the mother is seeking validation from the op that everything will magically work itself out . . . then the op does have a responsibility to do something. That something may be simply saying, "I know you love your children, but as a friend, I must say that not schooling for 2 years is a cause for concern. A 10-yr-old unable to write a sentence is also a cause for concern. You have a responsibility to provide your children with an education either at home, at a religious school, or at your local public school. I love you and want to assist in any way I can. How can I help you to improve this situation?"

 

Sometimes, especially in religious communities, people tiptoe around issues like this. Who wants to be the person who criticizes the pastor's wife? She may have never had someone lovingly speak up and offer help. She has reached out to you; now is the time to say something. You can't control how she reacts, but you owe it to those children to speak up on their behalf.

 

Regarding the bolded -- That's what surprised me when the OP said the Bible class teacher had expressed concern about the 10 yo's unwillingness/inability to write a sentence.  IME church people will bend over backwards to avoid anything remotely resembling criticism of a pastor's family.  So that someone brought up the problem sends up all sorts of red flags to me and indicates that the 10 yo is probably way, way behind (at least in the Bible class teacher's opinion).

 

(Note I'm not saying my experience with church life and congregants being hesitant to voice criticism of the pastor's family is universal.  But I attended multiple churches for the first 39 years of my life, and it was my experience that criticism of the pastor's family rarely ever occurs.)

 

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Sounds as though she has actually asked for help. In that case I would try to help out if I had the time.

 

 

Perhaps the older child is dyslexic. Purely speculation of course. Homeschooling didn't turn out to be the picturesque endeavor with the kiddos happily complying with the work and mom disengaged or didn't know what to do next.

 

 

When my kids were younger we could have seemed terribly lax to many people. We did do a lot and my kids absorbed massive amounts of info and developed strong analytical skills, but their output was exceedingly low. Writing in particular was a struggle until they hit the teen years. I don't think the older child's difficulties with writing necessarily mean that his educational needs are not being net. I actually wish we (educators in general) had a much broader acceptance of when it is appropriate for kids to develop writing skills.

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First:  why is she homeschooling in the first place?

 

Second:  why is she not considering putting them in school?

 

Given her position in the church community, I can't help wondering if she has an "image to uphold" and fears putting her kids in PS, especially if they are very behind.

 

She may also fear that her kids will be treated badly in PS if they enter so far behind their peers.

 

She may also fear that she will suffer legal repercussions if she puts her kids in school and the school decides she neglected them.

 

If any of these are true, then the best assistance may be to help her develop a realistic expectation for what will happen if the kids enter PS, and to help develop a plan for bringing the kids up to speed (at least somewhat) in time to enter school in the fall.  This might include getting tutors for the kids.

 

I would not call the authorities except as an absolute last resort.  Before I'd do that, I'd talk to her husband.  I'd have to be really hopeless on either parent caring to educate before I'd throw them to the wolves.

 

My impression is that she's probably depressed or has some other problem that makes her really unable to do much schooling.  If that is the case, imagine what a weight would be lifted if she could stop feeling responsible for every hour of her kids' education.

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This is not  MYOB issue, it's educational neglect. I'd talk to the husband and let him know what the wife/friend said and ask him if he know that they aren't doing any school. At this point I'd suggest to both parents that they put the child in public school. At least he/she would learn something. If nothing changed, I'd probably report it. I have a friend whose "homeschooling" bordered on educational neglect and she wishes something had been done about it.

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I reject the fundamental notion that the PS is so darn bad that the mere act of keeping children at home is some how magically better. It is a myth that should not be perpetuated. PS students are still occupying the bulk of the top spots in good colleges and uni's, trade schools, art schools, service academies, etc. across the United States and that is not because all PS's everywhere are so abysmally awful that no one can learn.

 

I understand that many people do not believe that. But, it is the truth.

 

 

:iagree: I have seen homeschoolers say quite literally that any homeschooling is better than the best public schooling, as if there's something magical about home education that makes learning happen with no effort whatsoever. Not only is it illogical, it also completely discounts all the activities and learning that the public school kids they believe are so uneducated and unsocialized do at home and in their communities with their families.

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Children are not property. They are not things. They are living humans who will some day have to fend for themselves in this world and they have a fundamental right to be educated to the best of their natural abilities including academics as well as life skills. Some come farther than others. A zero sum effort, and general parental failure is NOT an option because it can prevent them from moving forward in the future, and create bitter adults unhappy about how few options are available to them.

 

Yep. To me this is the crux of the issue. There is a wide range of parenting that I shut my eyes to and a wide range of educational styles that I approve of and more that I tolerate.

 

Just not teaching someone to read when there are free, accessible to all programs which many Christians--even fundamentalist Christians--are availing themselves of, would not be on my list of "things to tolerate".

 

That said there may be more to the story. If so, great.

 

And I do usually mind my own business, but if someone reaches out with a concern then I will take it on.

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Regarding the bolded -- That's what surprised me when the OP said the Bible class teacher had expressed concern about the 10 yo's unwillingness/inability to write a sentence. IME church people will bend over backwards to avoid anything remotely resembling criticism of a pastor's family. So that someone brought up the problem sends up all sorts of red flags to me and indicates that the 10 yo is probably way, way behind (at least in the Bible class teacher's opinion).

 

(Note I'm not saying my experience with church life and congregants being hesitant to voice criticism of the pastor's family is universal. But I attended multiple churches for the first 39 years of my life, and it was my experience that criticism of the pastor's family rarely ever occurs.)

 

I don't see how a Sunday School teacher expressing concern about a child to that child's mother = criticism of the family. Surely every one of the pastor's wives you have known could have had private discussions with their own children's Sunday School teachers and you would never have known?
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What do you all think the fathers are thinking, when this happens? It seems to me that when we share our stories (our own IRL knowledge, not swapped internet legends) the fathers come from all walks of life and all education levels. What they have in common, it seems to me, is the willingness to let their wives wallow in frustration, insecurity, and isolation while their children go untaught.

 

The women get caught up in ideals and start believing their own press about the evils of ps and the inherent and absolute necessity of hs'ing. Then they are sleep-deprived, distracted, and alone, in charge of the whole zoo, in which state they can entirely lose perspective. And then deceit sets in, lest anybody find out how badly it's going. For a minister's wife maybe she'd be very concerned how it would reflect on him if anybody learns that his 10yo can't read or write...more isolation...

 

Why don't these men say, "In the first place, you are not happy. In the second place, the children must learn. Because of lack of results and dearth of happiness we are taking a break from this experiment and educating the kids another way for awhile. Here are the school options I've found in our area. Do you have a preference? What would you like to do while they attend school?"

I mean seriously. Man up.

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maybe it's because I live in hard core unschooling land, or maybe it's because i have very late to read kids who also struggled with writing - but for me this isn't dinging the warning bells you all hear. 

 

 

Same here.  I really would need some other reason to feel compelled to take any sort of drastic action.  If this were a close enough friend I might level with her and suggest alternatives, but beyond that, I wouldn't probably call up DCF or anything.

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I agree but I think there has to be more investigation into why she's struggling.  If she has PPD or another kind of depression then working with her on a schedule won't help because her depression will keep her from being able to follow through on it.  If she has executive function issues then working with her on a schedule can help.  If she really has a rich learning environment but isn't doing formal school and feels guilty about it due to societal expectations then some reassurance can be in order.  If her son has a LD, then being redirected to getting a neuropsych evaluation and some specific help will be much more helpful than a lecture on how she should push him more.  If she's just overwhelmed with all her tasks then maybe a maid service is a good suggestion while she concentrates on school.  If schooling just isn't a priority for her, then putting her kids in p.s. might be the best advice.  

 

Yes, exactly, but none of those are MYOB.  They are all ways of helping, not ignoring the problem (which is what MYOB is - just smile and ignore).

 

Figuring out what exactly the problem is so it can be appropriately addressed is actually the polar opposite of MYOB (with the middle ground being giving advice that may or may not be helpful due to not knowing all the details).

 

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What do you all think the fathers are thinking, when this happens? It seems to me that when we share our stories (our own IRL knowledge, not swapped internet legends) the fathers come from all walks of life and all education levels. What they have in common, it seems to me, is the willingness to let their wives wallow in frustration, insecurity, and isolation while their children go untaught.

 

The women get caught up in ideals and start believing their own press about the evils of ps and the inherent and absolute necessity of hs'ing. Then they are sleep-deprived, distracted, and alone, in charge of the whole zoo, in which state they can entirely lose perspective. And then deceit sets in, lest anybody find out how badly it's going. For a minister's wife maybe she'd be very concerned how it would reflect on him if anybody learns that his 10yo can't read or write...more isolation...

 

Why don't these men say, "In the first place, you are not happy. In the second place, the children must learn. Because of lack of results and dearth of happiness we are taking a break from this experiment and educating the kids another way for awhile. Here are the school options I've found in our area. Do you have a preference? What would you like to do while they attend school?"

 

I mean seriously. Man up.

 

Well yeah the father is as much to "blame" or "credit" here.  But thinking of my husband, he really doesn't get heavily involved with school stuff.  Sometimes I ask him to help with a particular thing I think he'd be better at or would enjoy more (chem labs at the moment).  He works a lot.  Like lots of other people. 

 

I vent to him via e-mail a lot throughout the day.  So he does know what goes on in terms of any struggles, etc.  He sometimes will also talk to the kids about it.  So he isn't ignoring us, but he isn't micromanaging either.

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Also, "doing something" in my book, in this case with two loving parents, would seriously not include calling CPS at this point. She reached out. This is what friendship is for. It would probably just be a sit-down with the mom going over the skills by grade in Homeschooling Year by Year and saying, I'll help you with your plan. Let's do math and writing with all the kids until they're up to speed, and we can outsource tutoring if necessary.

 

I don't have time. I'd give up sleep, though, if it was a friend. That's what friends are for.

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Well yeah the father is as much to "blame" or "credit" here.  But thinking of my husband, he really doesn't get heavily involved with school stuff.  Sometimes I ask him to help with a particular thing I think he'd be better at or would enjoy more (chem labs at the moment).  He works a lot.  Like lots of other people. 

 

I vent to him via e-mail a lot throughout the day.  So he does know what goes on in terms of any struggles, etc.  He sometimes will also talk to the kids about it.  So he isn't ignoring us, but he isn't micromanaging either.

 

My DH doesn't do anything for our homeschool, either, except to live happily on one income and buy all the books...day to day, he has not the slightest idea what (or if) the kids learned. But he does check in now and then, and I have the boys show him their extra-good work sometimes (the stuff I save in portfolios). He'll ask about school at the dinner table, and share what he learned that day, too.

 

He checks in often enough that he would know if they hadn't learned anything in a week or two. Definitely two years wouldn't go neglected without his knowledge or interest.

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I'm stunned some posters think a homeschooling parent self reporting that they don't do any school for 2 years is a MYOB issue. At what point would you feel it is your business? When they told you they hadn't done school for 4, 5, or 6 years? I'd encourage you to read some posts at Homeschoolers Anonymous where former homeschoolers talk about how their life has been hampered by parents who weren't responsible with home educating responsibilities.

 

Children do have a right to education, and this mother has reported her children aren't being taught. And she is the teacher. 

 

Helping this mother organize her books or giving her some teaching tips isn't going to solve this problem. Ignoring, defending, or excusing this parent will not help the homeschooling movement. 

 

 

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I kinda feel it's the business of whoever has oversight of homeschoolers in that state...

 

If there is no oversight, there's your problem.

 

I don't think many people have been defending or excusing this parent. I don't have a responsibility though, to some idea of a 'homeschooling movement' and even if I did, my part is best served by homeschooling well in my own home, and taking on whatever broader support or educational duties I feel I have time and energy for at any one time. And lobbying for appropriate oversight etc.

 

I carve time out of sleep for a friend in crisis. This is not a crisis. It's a chronic condition.

 

 

I have read HA, and many of the posts should, imo, be more aptly titled Wacky Religion Anonymous.

 

Except no matter what your parents' religion, if you have access to other adults and other ways to get an education, you can move beyond it or stay in it. You have a real choice and when you are 18 you have the tools you need to leave the community, change it, or accept it with full understanding of what that means and build that community as a conscious member.

 

If you have no education to speak of you aren't free in that respect.

 

There is a reason slaves were kept from learning to read. Reading is freedom. Denying a child that freedom is my business.

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Same here.  I really would need some other reason to feel compelled to take any sort of drastic action.  If this were a close enough friend I might level with her and suggest alternatives, but beyond that, I wouldn't probably call up DCF or anything.

 

I wouldn't report her either. There's a pretty wide range of options between "MYOB" and "report her to the state."

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Except no matter what your parents' religion, if you have access to other adults and other ways to get an education, you can move beyond it or stay in it. You have a real choice and when you are 18 you have the tools you need to leave the community, change it, or accept it with full understanding of what that means and build that community as a conscious member.

 

If you have no education to speak of you aren't free in that respect.

 

There is a reason slaves were kept from learning to read. Reading is freedom. Denying a child that freedom is my business.

 

I agree, especially concerning the bolded.

 

Basic literacy, and access to libraries and other people in society, are my lines in the sand.

 

Children who have no access to books, and no freedom of association outside the family, are being denied basic human rights.

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It's disturbing to me that so many people would just nod and say nothing. Do our freedoms as homeschoolers really depend on keeping our mouths firmly shut no matter what another homeschooler does? I would argue the opposite.

 

Children have a right to an education. If homeschoolers don't acknowledge that - if we dig in and say that children don't have a right to anything their parents don't choose to give them - then the public is going to step in on behalf of neglected children, and regulate us further.

 

 

I used to be the polar opposite of this post and "back in the day" (including my history on this board) would have jumped ALL over this post.

Today, I agree with it.

 

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The focus here seems to be on a few things the mom told Chelli, but I'm wondering if Chelli would have guessed that the kids had done no real schoolwork in two years, or if they seem to be like pretty much any other kids their ages. It could be hard to tell with the 2yo, but is the 10yo socially inept? Can he read? Does he know basic math skills? How is his spoken language? Does he have a good vocabulary and use proper grammar?

 

Before we completely condemn the mom, I think it is important to know whether or not the kids are lacking in basic life skills, or if she has actually been teaching them far more than she realizes, even though it may be happening non-traditionally.

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I take your point, Bnip, and agree as a principle.

 

I think expecting homeschool moms to solve the problem for other moms is a bit much.

 

I was in an epic Facebook battle about that, just this past week, along with other WTM'ers. An anti-homeschooling person thought that we had the obligation to either police each other or invite the state to do it!

 

I don't believe I'm responsible for any homeschool other than my own.

 

I wouldn't help the OP's friend because I feel responsible for a fellow homeschooler. Not at all. I would intervene because a family is in crisis and a child is being neglected and I was the one who was told. What kind of people are we if we smile and nod, and turn our back, when this is going on?

 

The least I would do would be to let her know that it's not OK, and to ask what sort of help is required. The most I would do...would depend upon what I learned as I got more involved.

 

*********************************************************************

 

I'll tell you what I don't do, anymore. I don't share curriculum, surf the internet for inspiration to share on FB for her, or for "10 Helpful Hints to Get You Off Your Ass," educate extensively about learning styles, offer to be an accountability partner, offer to teach.

 

Why not? Because I believe homeschooling requires a mom who is already together, or who can already see how to get herself together with some expediency. If she won't research and plan and study and learn, all by her onesie, she doesn't want to do it and won't do it well. She needs to hang up her Homeschool Mom apron and research schools because she is not homeschooling.

 

That's really harsh, isn't it? I just condemned a quarter of the board. Ye gods.

 

Please understand what I'm saying. If a fellow homeschooling parent is on the same journey that I am on, even if she's at the first stop along the tracks and I've already looped the station twice, she is my peer. We can share information and encouragement. I might act as a mentor sometimes, but I see her as my friend. We are peers. Even if her current status is "Potential Trainwreck" she is definitely on the train and advancing.

 

If she won't even order the d@mn homeschooling train from Rainbow Resource and get started unless I pull, prod, poke, flatter, intimidate, encourage, and do it for her, then we are NOT peers. We are not on the same journey. What do I think I'm doing, forcing this reluctant person onto this train?

 

She and her children are better served, and my time is less wasted, if I point out that she seems to be looking for the other line.

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This does not seem to be the case with the OP's friend, unless I missed a post that said they had no access to books and were not allowed outside the family.

 

In other cases, it's not homeschooling that is mandating the above abusive practices....it's a religious interpretation.

 

But, ya know, feel free to take a look at my schedule and find the time I, and other homeschool moms, could use to fix other people's homeschools :)

 

Personally, I think the focus should be on adequate state oversight, not on guilting already extremely busy women to fix the problem for free...

 

I didn't assume that about this family. I'm just saying, to answer those who say "do we even have a line in the sand," that I do and this is it.

 

Everybody is projecting all over this thread and measuring this mother by their own yardstick. I think we should go by what the woman said, herself:

 

She has not taught her kids according to her very own standards for two years and she's concerned about it.

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I would say to this mom, "So and So, you have told me twice in the past several years that you have not done any school with your kids.  I am wondering what you want or need from me when you share this information.  You know me well enough to know that I can't condone this as a good plan.  So is there something that you are wanting or needing from me when you share that information."

 

That puts the ball back in her court and gets your stance out in the open so it is not the "elephant in the room". 

 

I knew someone like this once.  One of her kids had a learning disability which she was slow in pursuing diagnostics and treatment for.  The child was floundering in a private school so she pulled him out after the sixth grade to "homeschool".  She did nothing that year but have a diagnostician who was a friend of the family do some testing and confirm the LD.  She did take him to a mutual friend's house once a week to watch a small group of homeschooled kids do science, but he did not actually participate in the experiments or the work.  The following year, she put him in 7th grade in another private school (a different one).  So essentially, he took a solid year off from school.  I had tried to help her in other areas of her life and found her to be a "black hole", someone who became easily overwhelmed and therefore did nothing.  No matter how much help and support I (and others) gave, she always drifted back to her low functioning level once the immediate support ended.  I did not try to help with the homeschooling.  I was burned out by that time having tried to help with the other stuff.  So our mutual friend tried to help and experienced the same frustrating lack of doing anything that I had experienced.  We both gave up.  This kid is now in high school at a public school, and I don't really know how he is doing.

 

This lady could be depressed, confused, lacking in confidence, overwhelmed, etc.  No one can say.  If she is like my friend, there is no real helping her.

 

When I was dealing with my own friend, I would ask things like, "What are the barriers to you accomplishing this and that?  Are you against such and such?  Do you need someone to go with you?"  Her family was lacking in food, and she was not applying to aid or going to the church food bank so my questions were about this, but I think they translate to homeschooling, as well, with a few tweaks.  Good luck, OP.  This is a difficult spot for you to be in.

 

 

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Jeans reply sums it up to me... Something needs to be said or done, but in a gentle way, that let's you work out a little more information about why it isn't happening. There could be a lot of different reasons or they could be unschooling, but you can give better help if you have a clear picture of what is happening.

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 "10 Helpful Hints to Get You Off Your Ass," 

 

I can't speak to the part of your post regarding homeschool politics but this was hilarious. :D

 

I am not assuming the mom in this case was sitting on her butt. She may have been doing the bare minimum and just missing key signs of her son's learning disability. Who knows.

 

And Sadie, I agree--homeschoolers qua homeschoolers are not required to help or report.

 

I was thinking of this situation as myself, with a friend. My neighbor homeschools. My aunt homeschools. I have many friends who homeschool. If any of them came to me with this, I would help. We are neighbors. That's it. That's just how I do. I wouldn't feel guilty if I could not, or blame someone who didn't, though. And my first thought would not be PS either, though for someone who is overwhelmed it might be a start. My first thought is team-teaching.

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While there has been some discussion of the fact that she is the pastor's wife, one thing that has been missing from that discussion in my mind is the tremendous pressure to be perfect that position brings. She and her children are supposed to be perfect at all times. It is usually VERY difficult for a pastor's wife to reach out and admit they are struggling. Having done so is in my mind a definite plea for help.

 

I don't know why she isn't schooling her children. I don't know if she has PPD. I wonder. I don't know if her home provides an educationally rich environment. I don't know if her son's learning is honestly reflected by his inability to write a sentence or two in Sunday School. 

 

The only thing I feel fairly certain of is that this mom is floundering and she believes she needs help or she wouldn't have said anything. If Chelli can help her, I think trying would be a tremendous act of friendship. If she can't, her next actions depend a lot on what she learns as she tries to help. She might get some answers to the questions that have been posed in this thread such as are the kids really suffering educational neglect, or just lack of formal education, two very different things. She might also learn that it is the mom that needs the help, counseling, meds for depression, something else that would allow her to step up. I don't think it is time to report this mom to CPS, but if Chelli doesn't approve, she should give tacit approval by not speaking up either. 

 

Best wishes in a difficult situation.

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I think the key is that this mom considers Chelli a friend.

 

I would absolutely not go out of my way to "fix it" for a random homeschool acquaintance. I would possibly suggest resources or encourage her in changing her current habit, assuming that she opened herself up for suggestion.

 

If one of my good homeschooling friends shared with me the info shared in the OP, I would be willing to help if they were earnestly wanting it. On the other side of that coin, if I had a good friend who shared with me that info, but was making no attempt to rectify the situation I would say something. Even if it was was just a reminder that homeschool is not the only option and you are not failure if you put your child into a brick and morter school. The key to me is the person being a good friend.

 

I have made the statement many times over the past two years that I am not meeting my personal expectations for our schooling. My dearest friend, who is an awesome homeschool mom, reminds me that my health issues have changed the way school looks but that I am being too hard on myself. Then she grabs my planner and reads off what we've accomplished in the past week and how many days we've schooled in the past month. Hearing someone I trust and whose own educationing I find to be impressive tell me I am doing a good job is invaluable to me.

 

As homeschoolers I think we need to hold each other accountable, be each other's cheerleaders, inspire each other to reach higher and to press on when we hit the doldrums; we need to be honest with each other. I don't think any of this should be in a policing, bossy way, but just as a part of being friends. If someone is a close enough friend to share the hardships of homeschooling, than be a friend.

 

Friends don't let friends screw their kids over.

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Can we still tag posts? I'm not seeing where to do it, but I'd say this thread definitely calls for the "Tibbie's post on my fridge" tag.

 

What do you all think the fathers are thinking, when this happens? It seems to me that when we share our stories (our own IRL knowledge, not swapped internet legends) the fathers come from all walks of life and all education levels. What they have in common, it seems to me, is the willingness to let their wives wallow in frustration, insecurity, and isolation while their children go untaught.

 

The women get caught up in ideals and start believing their own press about the evils of ps and the inherent and absolute necessity of hs'ing. Then they are sleep-deprived, distracted, and alone, in charge of the whole zoo, in which state they can entirely lose perspective. And then deceit sets in, lest anybody find out how badly it's going. For a minister's wife maybe she'd be very concerned how it would reflect on him if anybody learns that his 10yo can't read or write...more isolation...

 

Why don't these men say, "In the first place, you are not happy. In the second place, the children must learn. Because of lack of results and dearth of happiness we are taking a break from this experiment and educating the kids another way for awhile. Here are the school options I've found in our area. Do you have a preference? What would you like to do while they attend school?"

I mean seriously. Man up.

 

I agree. It seems odd to me when this happens in conservative Christian families because it seems like an abdication of what they see as the man's role as the head of the family. And it seems odd to me when it happens in liberal families (usually WoW-all-day unschoolers) because I wonder how it feels to work hard all day to support a family who just plays. In all cases it seems unbelievably short-sighted, and it's hard for me to explain it away as a normal family division-of-labor where the children are Mom's responsibility and Dad keeps out of it.

 

I was in an epic Facebook battle about that, just this past week, along with other WTM'ers. An anti-homeschooling person thought that we had the obligation to either police each other or invite the state to do it!

 

I don't believe I'm responsible for any homeschool other than my own.

 

I wouldn't help the OP's friend because I feel responsible for a fellow homeschooler. Not at all. I would intervene because a family is in crisis and a child is being neglected and I was the one who was told. What kind of people are we if we smile and nod, and turn our back, when this is going on?

 

The least I would do would be to let her know that it's not OK, and to ask what sort of help is required. The most I would do...would depend upon what I learned as I got more involved.

 

Yes, I was thinking of that Facebook battle too, and how much the other person would think that this thread proves her point.

 

I wouldn't feel myself obligated to take things over and plan them out for that mother, unless, of course, she paid me my hourly rate. (Which seems unlikely.) I think that in cases like this, homeschooling tips are not helpful. But I would speak some plain truths, and point her towards help - or school - and I would follow up to make sure that things change.

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Is it really the end of the world for them to go to ps?

 

I don't think so, but then I'm a former ps teacher. I think some opportunity to learn is better than none. At least they'd have the opportunity in ps.

 

Is she just lazy?  What's the deal?  Why is she not doing any school?  In other words, what does she do all day?  Does her husband know she's not actually educating their kids?  There has to be someone close to her who can light a fire under her to do something--get help for herself, enroll the kids in school, something.

 

The two of us actually have super similar personalities. I guess that is one of the reasons I get frustrated when I think about. I believe that laziness does play a part in it or putting it off until the next day and the next until you realize 6 months have gone by and you've done only 20 days of school in that time. I have no idea what she does all day. She does run a Christian woman's blog and speaks at different Christian women's retreats and conventions throughout the year. I'm sure her husband has to know, but he seems quite passive and trusts her judgment about all things concerning the children.

 

I don't think this is an MYOB situation, because the mother has told you about it. Therefore, she has made it your business. At worst, it is a form of neglect on her part, and she maybe reaching out for help or reassurance that it is Ok. Obviously, you do not believ it is ok. So maybe a small nudge is in order.

 

When I was pregnant with my now four year old, I was put on complete bed test. at times, i was able to set a table up bext the the bed and do WWE and Story of the World with my dc. Some times they did SM !ath, which orivided me with things to grade, and we did flash cards and chess. It sounds like much more than what actually got done. I eventually had a c-section and had to rest mych more than I did with my previous children. Starting back up happened very slowly. I began having the kds work an SOTW three days a week and Math daily. After these things were getting done consitantly for a few weeks, we added another subject, and continued in the same way.

 

Maybe, the next time she brings it up, you could suggest she start up one subject with her dc. (Reading aloud 15 minutes is an easy thing to begin with.) ;) of course, she cannot start where they left off, that would surely set them up to fail. She would need to back track a bit. With your coxing, maybe she can get back at it, and her children can begin receiving the education they are entitled to.

 

Just a thought.

 

Danielle

 

These are some great suggestions, Danielle! Thanks!

 

How many kids does she have??

 

She has a 10 year old, 7 year old twins, 2 year old, and due any day now with #5. She is definitely a busy mom.

 

Is she depressed? House fairly picked up? Kids fed and bathed reasonably?

 

Quite a few people mentioned depression, and honestly, I wouldn't have thought of that, but it could be the case. She doesn't act depressed, but I know that most people wear a mask to hid their depression when around other people. I will definitely mention that to her. Her house is a wreck. She's proud of the fact that it is a mess. In fact she was telling me how they might get dishes washed once a week and they frequently just throw dishes away because they are too nasty to even bother washing. Her children seem to be taken well care of in all other respects.

 

It's disturbing to me that so many people would just nod and say nothing. Do our freedoms as homeschoolers really depend on keeping our mouths firmly shut no matter what another homeschooler does? I would argue the opposite.

 

Children have a right to an education. If homeschoolers don't acknowledge that - if we dig in and say that children don't have a right to anything their parents don't choose to give them - then the public is going to step in on behalf of neglected children, and regulate us further.

 

I agree with this so much. Thank you sharing. 

 

Does your state not have any regulations or checks on homeschoolers?

 

 

No regulations. We are in Texas so homeschools are considered private schools. No governmental oversight.

 

Is there  a reason that public school is unacceptable (to the parent) in this instance?   So unacceptable that educational neglect is preferable?

 

In our denomination (her husband is a minister in the same denomination that my husband is), there is a huge movement that homeschooling is the only way to raise true, faithful, Christians (I do not subscribe to this buy the way. We don't homeschool for religious reasons, but academic ones which makes us the oddballs in our denomination). That would be the reason that she considers them being at home as better for them than the public school. I know that this saying isn't new but the ideas of "I'm trying to get them into heaven not Harvard" is very much a motto among most homeschoolers in my denomination. I always tell people I'm getting them ready for both. They usually look at me like I'm crazy.

 

Chelli,

 

I do think she looks up to you and sees you as someone who can help her. I only "know" you thru here and your blog and I see you that way, too. :-)

 

I would very gently tease out what she IS doing and then help her come up with a bare minimum plan. Reading, writing and math. Help her organize those subjects. Put everything in one milk crate or dishpan or on one shelf. She'd need very few resources to cover these subjects.

 

I'd also try to address the issues of why things AREN'T working, whether it is a learning problem for the children or depression for her. But I truly think that she could successfully do the "three R's" for a while (with some support) and get into a rhythm, along with getting to the roots of the problems.

 

Thank you for the kind words. About 3 or 4 years ago, I was exactly where she was (not doing school consistently, slacking off, making excuses), but the Hive provided the kick in the pants that I needed and I realized that 90% of homeschooling is just doing your job every day because it is a job. We have been very consistent and flourishing since then. I guess I need to be her kick in the pants!

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I wouldn't report her either. There's a pretty wide range of options between "MYOB" and "report her to the state."

Except that this meets the requirements, by our county and state standards for educational neglect so if she shares this with someone who is a legal reporter, someone like me, she is going to end up with a visit from CPS. I do not have a choice.

 

If the OP is not a legal reporter, then it's a judgment call that the OP has the option to make. However, as times goes on, this mother is more likely to encounter a legal reporter who will see the problem because the older a child gets the more obvious the deficit becomes. Better that this woman get a grip now, than later. The longer she goes, the stiffer the penalty. Educational neglect normally does not result in CPS removing children from the home, not at two years of doing nothing. But at four or five years, there is that risk because if she is that adamantly against brick and mortar school, they can't trust her to get her children the help they'll need to catch up and there reaches a place where they can't readily catch up. At 12, they aren't going to make up six or seven years worth of academic material in 2 or 3 years in order to make it to general education and college prep coursework in 9th grade. What they will end up in is special education and then alternative ed. If these are Michigan kids, it's a real problem because 16 year olds can no longer drop out and take the GED, get a job, and go to night school for remedial education at the local CC. Attendance is now mandatory through 18.

 

Ten is therefore a crucial turning point because two more years of this could be the point of no return.

 

Again, MYOB for some of you because you don't have to report. But, if she admitted this to some of us, it absolutely would have to be reported and we would not be bad person for doing it.

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I think it's MYOB, unless she's asking for some help?  Then it's your choice whether you help her or not.

 

Especially since you're in Texas, is what she's doing even considered educational neglect there?  

 

I had more to say but realized that I was overstepping the boundaries of the question and should probably mind my own business  :rolleyes:.

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Except that this meets the requirements, by our county and state standards for educational neglect so if she shares this with someone who is a legal reporter, someone like me, she is going to end up with a visit from CPS. I do not have a choice.

 

If the OP is not a legal reporter, then it's a judgment call that the OP has the option to make. However, as times goes on, this mother is more likely to encounter a legal reporter who will see the problem because the older a child gets the more obvious the deficit becomes. Better that this woman get a grip now, than later. The longer she goes, the stiffer the penalty. Educational neglect normally does not result in CPS removing children from the home, not at two years of doing nothing. But at four or five years, there is that risk because if she is that adamantly against brick and mortar school, they can't trust her to get her children the help they'll need to catch up and there reaches a place where they can't readily catch up. At 12, they aren't going to make up six or seven years worth of academic material in 2 or 3 years in order to make it to general education and college prep coursework in 9th grade. What they will end up in is special education and then alternative ed. If these are Michigan kids, it's a real problem because 16 year olds can no longer drop out and take the GED, get a job, and go to night school for remedial education at the local CC. Attendance is now mandatory through 18.

 

Ten is therefore a crucial turning point because two more years of this could be the point of no return.

 

Again, MYOB for some of you because you don't have to report. But, if she admitted this to some of us, it absolutely would have to be reported and we would not be bad person for doing it.

I'm sure, though, that plenty of mandatory reporters would choose to try to help her rather than to report her.

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