No School in Two Years

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Be careful, Chelli. :grouphug: I get the feeling she's a wild card.

[MomatHWTK]

If your heart is telling you to have the conversation, then you are doing the right thing. :grouphug:

[SKL]

I agree, your saying something will at least make her realize how very bad this looks from the outside.  I hope she takes it in the right spirit.

[Tsuga]

You know, I think sometimes that people get the validation and justification they need to feel their state of affairs is normal.

 

What I would emphasize in that case is personal goals and personal standards. Saying "this is not normal" or "this is not okay" is not going to work in a situation like this. She needs to see this as her living up to her own standards. It's really not a question of how it looks from the outside because she has people to validate the status quo, as Chelli said.

 

So you don't like dishes but you don't like the smell? Who cares what people think? Paper plates it is. You don't have time for dishes.

 

So your kids aren't responding to homeschooling and you want to save your relationship? Time to hire a tutor!

 

There are face-saving ways out of it if she's asking for validation. There are many shades of normal. What is really key here is that it sounds like the family wants to do better and believes it's possible but isn't sure how.

 

So helping her set goals for this and make a plan to meet those goals, since she's clearly not totally incompetent--she has speaking gigs, she CAN do some things--may be the way to go.

 

Focus on her lack of happiness with what she's accepted as her normal and let her know you'll support her as she sets up a plan for change. Maybe choose one thing at a time. I actually would start with schooling. What's the grade-level goal for the kids this year? Okay, so what is a program she can plow through in the mornings, and then a second lesson at night with a tutor?

 

Good luck!

[momto10blessings]

I'm still against reporting unless you've actually SEEN the filth. What if they were exaggerating? "My kitchen is so dirty I have to throw away dishes with mold in them". Yes, not a decent thing to joke about, but I can see one of my very sarcastic friends saying something like this and someone who doesn't know her well would completely believe she was telling the truth.

 

Eta: ok, it took me forever to write that post and just saw your last post and that you've actually seen the filth. I'm half you are talking to her before calling cps

[Tanaqui]

I'm still against reporting unless you've actually SEEN the filth.

 

So the social worker walks in, sees that the house is spotless (or at least that there aren't moldy dishes all over), laughs, and closes the case. It's a nuisance to all involved, and a real waste of time, but that's about it.

 

[kiana]

So the social worker walks in, sees that the house is spotless (or at least that there aren't moldy dishes all over), laughs, and closes the case. It's a nuisance to all involved, and a real waste of time, but that's about it.

 

Yeah, pretty much.

 

FWIW, I was an unschooled child in the 1980s, and people called CPS alleging educational neglect on my mother's part more than once. The social workers came out, said "They said your kid can't read", she had me pick up a book (usually a college-level one) and read to them, and they said "that's what we thought" and left.

[FO4UR]

Be careful, Chelli. :grouphug: I get the feeling she's a wild card.

 

 

This.

[Katy]

The concept that it's hyperbole is mystifying to me.  Are those who agreed with that comment really that sheltered?

[Catwoman]

So the social worker walks in, sees that the house is spotless (or at least that there aren't moldy dishes all over), laughs, and closes the case. It's a nuisance to all involved, and a real waste of time, but that's about it.

Depending on how it's handled, it can be very traumatic to a family to get a visit from CPS.

 

I think you are really minimizing the effect being unjustly reported can have on people, and that's why I think mandated reporters need to be careful not to get too fast and loose with the reporting, particularly in a case of something like educational neglect, where it can be very difficult to determine what is really going on unless you have very close knowledge of the family.

 

Obviously, if a paramedic sees a child with oddly frequent or suspicious injuries or that the family is living in absolute filth and squalor, I think we could all agree that a report would be in order, but in this thread, a few people seemed to be suggesting that Chelli report (or threaten to report) her friend for educational neglect based on nothing more than a few sentences in a conversation.

 

Now that we have more details about the condition of the home, the situation looks far worse than it originally appeared, but initially, all we knew was that the woman mentioned that she hadn't done any real schoolwork with her children in two years, and Chelli didn't know whether or not the kids were actually learning in non-traditional ways.

[Catwoman]

The concept that it's hyperbole is mystifying to me. Are those who agreed with that comment really that sheltered?

Some people are very self-deprecating and sarcastic, so I can see it happening in some cases -- although apparently not in this one, because Chelli has seen it for herself.

 

I had one friend who would talk about her house being a mess... but her idea of a mess was that someone forgot to pick up a few magazines off of a table after they were done reading them. But if I barely knew her, I might have thought she was a real slob by the things she said.

[Catwoman]

In my state, a mandated reporter is a professional and the MR has to have a reasonable suspicion that abuse has occurred. So if a MR sees a child with a black eye, the MR can ask, "what happened to your eye?"

 

If the child's answer doesn't seem reasonable to the MR, that is all that is needed.

 

A MR wouldn't see a child with a black eye and be legally obligated to make a report.

 

In this particular case, before all the other information was given, if a MR was told they haven't homeschooled in 2 years, it would be a natural follow up to ask, "what do you mean?"

 

If Chelli's friend said that to her doc, I don't think the doc would walk out and called CPS without asking a follow up question.

:iagree:

 

That was exactly what I was thinking, but I didn't phrase it well.

[albeto.]

The concept that it's hyperbole is mystifying to me.  Are those who agreed with that comment really that sheltered?

 

Yes. Very sheltered. It's been so long since I've interacted with the real world, and it's been so long since I've allowed uncomfortable topics to be considered that anything that deviates from my ideal comfort is automatically categorized as being silly and untrue. Why, I've completely forgotten the possibility ever existed until you reminded me. Thank you!

 

^_^

 

 

 

 

 

Just kidding. It seemed a silly idea, and I couldn't help myself from continuing the little mental skit.

 

As a serious answer to your question, I would not rule out hyperbole for a few reasons. For example, it's not nearly as likely that someone actually lives in filth as much as they pretend, play it up, try to make themselves the butt of their own joke due to being embarrassed that they cannot uphold their ideals or even their own standards. My comment was made before Chelli mentioned her experience having dinner with them, but even then there's a whole range of possibilities. The husband had to wash dishes because every dish in the house had been used in preparation, or the dh had to wash the dishes because the take-out didn't deliver paper plates and he had to chisel off old crust to make way for the new? I have no idea if Chelli's idea of shocking includes things left out when company comes, or if we're talking mental health hoarders quality filth. The odds are not mental health hoarders, so it's not a bad gamble to assume hyperbole is involved. The odds are if someone is truly mentally challenged, a local friend or family member would have picked it up before the friend who lives 6 hours away. It's not inconceivable to assume someone is exaggerating for any number of reasons. It's silly to think this opinion stems from being sheltered.

[albeto.]

a few people seemed to be suggesting that Chelli report (or threaten to report) her friend for educational neglect based on nothing more than a few sentences in a conversation.

 

This is really more of a statement of the culture here than a statement about the situation in the thread, imo. Let's face it, this community is compromised of many people who tend to be "take charge" kind of people. Many people here expect much from their children, and no less from themselves. They are the kind of people that get sh!t done, so I don't mean this as a put down in any way. But let's not forget that this is a particular little subculture snug within another particular little subculture. The idea of taking charge and getting those kids the things they need RIGHT NOW is understandable from this community, but not so much outside it, I think. And really, this is all based on a few sentences the OP heard from a friend. Shocking sentences, but nevertheless, it's not evidence. How many people here would be mortified if something they've shared here was taken to mean their children were in jeopardy and required outside assistance based on the personal standards of another boardie?

 

[mellifera33]

The concept that it's hyperbole is mystifying to me. Are those who agreed with that comment really that sheltered?

My sil and I have joked about being one step up from "jars-of-urine-in-the-closet hoarders." In reality we have stacks of books on the coffee table, junk-mail clutter in the dining room, and the kids' shoes on the living room floor. Maybe you are just sheltered from bad jokes. :)

[TammyS]

I don't think it's hyperbole. I've actually been in her house. She had to have her dh wash dishes just so she could serve us. I am definitely not a great housekeeper, but even I was shocked at the state of her kitchen especially since she knew we were coming over and had all day to get ready for us. We showed up at dinner time.

 

I will definitely be contacting her today to start this conversation. I don't know if anything I say or do will help, but I've got to say/do something. It's been bugging me for three weeks now since we talked.

 

Two thoughts:

 

1.Maybe she HAD cleaned to get ready for you coming over, and what you saw was what got leftover.  Yikes, that's scary speculation.

 

2. Before you contact her, I would urge you to think for yourself how far you want to go in helping her.  Decide ahead of time what your boundaries will be, so that you don't get sucked into a black hole of working on someone's problems that the someone doesn't have a problem with.

[Katy]

Yeah, but there's a difference between complaining your house is a pit to apologize for not having picked up the toys in two days or having vacuumed up the dog hair that week and repeatedly stating to someone that you barely know but who has seen your filth that things are so bad there is mold growing and you haven't schooled your seven year olds for their entire lives or your ten year old for the past two years. There's also a huge difference between dusty clutter and filth. Once you've seen the filth you know the person probably isn't exaggerating.  Once you've heard a woman confess she doesn't school at all and you know her son can't write a single sentance....  I at least would at least ask questions before I'd assume it was hyperbole.

[albeto.]

I at least would at least ask questions before I'd assume it was hyperbole.

 

But apparently not before assuming others are sheltered? Serious question: Why is your standard of comfort the measure assumed we all go by?

[texasmama]

In honor of this thread, I moved our extra large dog crate and swept underneath and behind it, in addition to removing the tray at the bottom and cleaning it.  

[Catwoman]

In honor of this thread, I moved our extra large dog crate and swept underneath and behind it, in addition to removing the tray at the bottom and cleaning it.

Now you're just showing off. ;)

[Tsuga]

The concept that it's hyperbole is mystifying to me.  Are those who agreed with that comment really that sheltered?

 

I've seen total and complete disasters of homes, and I've also met people who are somewhat disorganized and perpetually a week behind who compare themselves to the total disasters.

 

It's not that I don't think it could be that bad, but I don't think that all comments like, "Oh my gosh our house is so nasty" or "My house is a baby death-trap" are necessarily accurate depictions of what things are like.

 

I could see two people saying, "I'm always afraid of what I'll find behind the couch" and it meaning two totally different things.

 

To one person, it's like ack, dust bunnies, Lego bricks, and OMG is that a sticky quarter?

 

To another person, she knows that the kids have been sticking candy-wrappers, half-eaten candy, and apple cores back there, and it makes her nearly tear up to think of how gross it will be to clean out and she can't even face it.

[texasmama]

Now you're just showing off. ;)

Maybe I should make the children eat their lunch off the dog crate tray to demonstrate how clean it is. :D

[sunflowerlady]

Well, this thread has had an effect on me. I am very likely one of the most relaxed homeschoolers on this board. Really. My dd is high school.aged and I am still relaxed and generally we are not "rigorous". However, I checked in on her progress in her English curriculum today an went over some grammar concepts with her. Also I will be checking in more and helping her stay on track.

 

I also.struggle with housework. Today I did three loads of laundry, cleaned the toilets, and dusted the living room.

 

So it has motivating. :)

[Guest]

I don't think it's hyperbole. I've actually been in her house. She had to have her dh wash dishes just so she could serve us. I am definitely not a great housekeeper, but even I was shocked at the state of her kitchen especially since she knew we were coming over and had all day to get ready for us. We showed up at dinner time.

 

I will definitely be contacting her today to start this conversation. I don't know if anything I say or do will help, but I've got to say/do something. It's been bugging me for three weeks now since we talked.

That truly is appalling. And I'm trying to imagine how this transpired...did she say, "Oh, hey Bob. The pizza is here. Could you wash up a few plates? Everything is in the sink." Who *does* that???

 

I just had friends over this past weekend and I cleaned and cooked the entire day. Plus I felt a bit embarassed that I didn't get the Lasagna in the oven early enough to clean off the counters before friends arrived. I grant you, I am a weirdo the opposite way, but if you have to err in preparing for guests, err the other way. Be a neat freak.

 

I hope you will tell us how it went.

 

P.s. My mother was a very poor keeper of home, while knocking heself out for the church. It did not create a favorable impression in me. I believe that it was just way more gratifying to make twenty costumes for the Christmas Program, where everyone would rave about her talents and generosity, than it was to put together a meal and clean a bathroom for the sake of the family.

[Ipsey]

 

To another person, she knows that the kids have been sticking candy-wrappers, half-eaten candy, and apple cores back there, and it makes her nearly tear up to think of how gross it will be to clean out and she can't even face it.

 

Are you in my basement? Get out! Get out now, Binip!

[Lisa R.]

Here is what we know from the OP:

 

OP has confirmed that this woman is not exaggerating with regard to her beyond messy house and lack of actual home educating.

 

OP has seen the dirty house in person.

 

OP has said that this woman has told her twice about her lack of actual home educating. 

 

OP said woman told her that a Sunday school teacher expressed specific concern about 10 year old not being able to write a sentence. So, a second, objective and independent verification on what mom has already said--twice.

 

OP said mom is a blogger and public speaker, so she seems to have time for other priorities in her life.

 

So, why do people posting here keep wanting to assume there is some exaggeration here? While it's gracious to give people the benefit of the doubt, hasn't the OP removed this doubt? Do we need pictures? Do we need samples of the kids' schoolwork--which doesn't appear to exist?

 

Yes, there are people on that hoarders show who have houses worse than this woman. That is not the standard.

 

Why is it so hard to say that a fellow homeschooler is doing a craptastic job? Can't we say that some people shouldn't be homeschooling? Can't we admit that homeschooling doesn't work well for all families? 

 

Again, the options aren't ignore or report to CPS. It appears that the OP has the common sense to have a conversation with her friend to determine the best course to take going forward. In the end, maybe it will be report to CPS. Maybe it will be report to the church. Hopefully, this mom will come to her senses and enroll these kids in school.

 

 

[Tsuga]

 

 

 I believe that it was just way more gratifying to make twenty costumes for the Christmas Program, where everyone would rave about her talents and generosity, than it was to put together a meal and clean a bathroom for the sake of the family.

 

That sure as hell is why I work outside of the home. This mom needs to admit she's working out of the home and get some help. I don't begrudge anyone having a job. I do think it's a problem when you don't make arrangements for child care and education while doing your job.

 

(I do clean the bathrooms and make homemade meals, though...)

[happypamama]

That truly is appalling. And I'm trying to imagine how this transpired...did she say, "Oh, hey Bob. The pizza is here. Could you wash up a few plates? Everything is in the sink." Who *does* that???

 

I just had friends over this past weekend and I cleaned and cooked the entire day. Plus I felt a bit embarassed that I didn't get the Lasagna in the oven early enough to clean off the counters before friends arrived. I grant you, I am a weirdo the opposite way, but if you have to err in preparing for guests, err the other way. Be a neat freak.

 

I hope you will tell us how it went.

 

P.s. My mother was a very poor keeper of home, while knocking heself out for the church. It did not create a favorable impression in me. I believe that it was just way more gratifying to make twenty costumes for the Christmas Program, where everyone would rave about her talents and generosity, than it was to put together a meal and clean a bathroom for the sake of the family.

This is, IMO, one area where Dad can really help and make a big difference. If Mom's love language is words of affirmation, and nobody at home gives her those words, she isn't going to find housework very gratifying and will look for those affirmations elsewhere. Dad really needs to step up and model actually saying thanks to Mom and to compliment and verbally appreciate her home efforts, so that the children will pick up on that and in turn be grateful as well. If you do a job over and over again and never receive any appreciation for that job (although they'll notice if it doesn't get done!), you're not going to bother to make that job a priority, especially if outside tasks do garner accolades.

[Truscifi]

I scheduled vacuuming for the first time in a month.

 

The downstairs is picked up and clean and the bedrooms are all put away, but any cleaning beyond straightening and basic laundry/dishes/bathroom wipe downs hasn't been happening since the baby was born.

 

I mopped my kitchen.

[morningcoffee]

You live too far away to be much help. Plus her attitude and lifestyle indicates to me that she is making her own poor choices vs being depressed or overwhelmed. 

 

Did you say that your husbands are both pastors in the same denomination?

 

What does your husband say? I think it your husband who should be taking action on this as the connection between your families is through his ministry.  I assume there is some sort of accountability system between ministers in your denomination. 

 

They aren't just "her" kids that are (potentially) being neglected.  

[brehon]

I scheduled vacuuming for the first time in a month.

 

The downstairs is picked up and clean and the bedrooms are all put away, but any cleaning beyond straightening and basic laundry/dishes/bathroom wipe downs hasn't been happening since the baby was born.

 

 

I mopped my kitchen.

 

 

 

 

Overachievers  :glare:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lol:

[texasmama]

Are you in my basement? Get out! Get out now, Binip!

No, Binip is in the back seat of my minivan.  <slinks off>

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I mopped my kitchen.

 

We have too many outside activities on Mondays for me to go nuts with the OCD housecleaning, as I would LOVE to do after reading this thread, but I did walk through the house judging myself.

[texasmama]

We have too many outside activities on Mondays for me to go nuts with the OCD housecleaning, as I would LOVE to do after reading this thread, but I did walk through the house judging myself.

If you found no maggots or moldy food plates, consider giving yourself a pass.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If you found no maggots or moldy food plates, consider giving yourself a pass.

 

:D By that standard I'm golden!

 

Edited to remove slanderous remarks about my cat.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Tibbie Dunbar

[MomatHWTK]

We have too many outside activities on Mondays for me to go nuts with the OCD housecleaning, as I would LOVE to do after reading this thread, but I did walk through the house judging myself.

:smilielol5:

[Tsuga]

No, Binip is in the back seat of my minivan.  <slinks off>

 

Funny, that was from a story about someone in my family 4 decades ago... lest anyone suggest this is a new phenomenon... ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

My friends know that if they come over they will see a dirty house.  But I have an excuse (chronic pain).  However, you can look at my tackle threads and you will see that I clean the kitchen every single day, including washing dishes (often running the dishwasher twice a day) and do the laundry daily and we do school.  In fact my house is so dirty because I schedule that pesky homeschooling every day.  I used to be able to push myself to clean up if someone was coming over.  Now I can't (no oomph left to do so).  Very generous people on this board have asked if they could come and help me but I haven't been able to say yes because I don't know day-to-day how I"m going to feel.  So it's better for me to take the very slow "one-bite-of -the-elephant-at-a-time" method.  Thus a daily tackle thread was born.   ;)  ;)  The point of all of this is that my house might be dirty but I think I'm still a responsible person who at least is working hard at those responsibilities even if they are winning.  And the other point of all of this is that my dirt still has never generated any mold outside of "unintended science experiments" that do crop up in the fridge and do get dealt with as soon as we become aware of them.  And none of those have ever resulted in maggots.  Though we did have one bag of yardwaste that did breed maggots - gross!  gross! gross! because we didn't realize that it had gotten stuck behind the shed.  So I hope there is hyperbole there even if I'm afraid that there might not be.  

[texasmama]

:D By that standard I'm golden!

 

Edited to remove slanderous remarks about my cat.

Slanderous remarks. <snort>

[Rosie_0801]

I think you are really minimizing the effect being unjustly reported can have on people, and that's why I think mandated reporters need to be careful not to get too fast and loose with the reporting, particularly in a case of something like educational neglect, where it can be very difficult to determine what is really going on unless you have very close knowledge of the family.

 

 

I'm not in a position to minimise any such thing and I still think mandated reporters need to follow the law and report their suspicions. If no one reported suspicions, a lot more children would continue to be abused or neglected for a whole lot longer. 

 

Educational neglect is an easy one to deal with. It's illegal. The kids get court ordered to school.

[T'smom]

Some people are very self-deprecating and sarcastic, so I can see it happening in some cases -- although apparently not in this one, because Chelli has seen it for herself.

 

I had one friend who would talk about her house being a mess... but her idea of a mess was that someone forgot to pick up a few magazines off of a table after they were done reading them. But if I barely knew her, I might have thought she was a real slob by the things she said.

I used to say sometimes that I had been "screaming at my kids" then I saw someone actually screaming at her kids and was horrified- what if someone heard me say that and thought I meant I was doing what that lady was doing? I don't say that anymore. I also remember lamenting that I had "totally bombed that test" in high school, when I had gotten a B+. The thing is though, I didn't feel like I was using hyperbole when I made those statements- I really felt like I had been screaming at my kids and I really felt like I had bombed the test. I just had different definitions than the people listening may have had.

 

This isn't directly about the OP's friend- just a general comment that when people say things, they may not mean what you think.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I used to say sometimes that I had been "screaming at my kids" then I saw someone actually screaming at her kids and was horrified- what if someone heard me say that and thought I meant I was doing what that lady was doing? I don't say that anymore. I also remember lamenting that I had "totally bombed that test" in high school, when I had gotten a B+. The thing is though, I didn't feel like I was using hyperbole when I made those statements- I really felt like I had been screaming at my kids and I really felt like I had bombed the test. I just had different definitions than the people listening may have had.

 

This isn't directly about the OP's friend- just a general comment that when people say things, they may not mean what you think.

Yes, I don't think that pigs literally would like living in my house!  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh and just a note:  when my kids were toddlers and babies I stuck to a much higher standard of cleanliness for my floors and coffee table etc.  Now I figure my kids and dh can help clean it up too so I'm not breaking my back to do it all.  

[Truscifi]

If you found no maggots or moldy food plates, consider giving yourself a pass.

 

Confession time.

 

Brotherman is responsible for taking out the compost to the compost bin every day. At one point he decided that was too much work and just hid the bags in the cabinet. It took a couple of days for us to realize what was going on. :svengo:  The smell gave him away.  :ack2:  Yes, there were maggots.  :zombie: The zombie smiley actually pretty well conveys the situation.

 

He now realizes why compost has to be taken out daily. 

[FO4UR]

Confession time.

 

Brotherman is responsible for taking out the compost to the compost bin every day. At one point he decided that was too much work and just hid the bags in the cabinet. It took a couple of days for us to realize what was going on. :svengo:  The smell gave him away.  :ack2:  Yes, there were maggots.  :zombie: The zombie smiley actually pretty well conveys the situation.

 

He now realizes why compost has to be taken out daily. 

 

 

Every kid tries that kind of thing once.

 

 

Key word being "once."

[texasmama]

Confession time.

 

Brotherman is responsible for taking out the compost to the compost bin every day. At one point he decided that was too much work and just hid the bags in the cabinet. It took a couple of days for us to realize what was going on. :svengo:  The smell gave him away.  :ack2:  Yes, there were maggots.  :zombie: The zombie smiley actually pretty well conveys the situation.

 

He now realizes why compost has to be taken out daily. 

Okay, since you showed me yours, I will show you mine...

 

We pretty consistently grew maggots for awhile in the bottom of our large OUTDOOR trash can.  We worked and worked to get rid of the darn things, but they kept coming back so we left off putting it in the garage and now it stays outside in front of the garage.  I thought about leaving a note apologizing to the trash people and telling them that we were trying hard to eradicate them.

[Outdoorsy Type]

I have had to wash up plates/silverware because lunch used them up, and I didn't start the dishwasher. I only have a place setting for 10.

[fairfarmhand]

PSSSTTTT....

 

I had a freezer full of maggots last fall,

 

In my defense, I had no idea the 6 containers of beef liver were in there before I unplugged the freezer.  thus the maggots.

 

I did spent two hours gagging as I cleaned out said maggots and rotten meat.

 

Then when I plugged the freezer in, IT DIDN"T WORK!!!!

[Tsuga]

PSSSTTTT....

 

I had a freezer full of maggots last fall,

 

In my defense, I had no idea the 6 containers of beef liver were in there before I unplugged the freezer.  thus the maggots.

 

I did spent two hours gagging as I cleaned out said maggots and rotten meat.

 

Then when I plugged the freezer in, IT DIDN"T WORK!!!!

 

Ohhhh no. No. So gross. I am so sorry.

[Garga]

Chelli needs to come back and tell us how the phone call went.

 

As far as hyperbole, aren't they in Texas? Aren't Texans known for their tall tales? I could easily believe it was a "you had mold? Oh yeah, well I had me some maggots!" swapping of tall tales like this Monty Python thread where each guy tries to outdo the others for the worst childhood:

(That one is really funny and I'm only tepid toward Monty Python.)

 

Of course, that all fell apart when the OP explained that she's been to the house and see the filth, so I would say it's not hyperbole after all.