Pronghorn Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 This is a spin-off from the thread about kids skipping church for sports. I am a sometimes-lonely Sunday school teacher who works really hard. I want to know what would make church more relevant and desirable to other believers. People are busy, I know, but why is church low on the priority list. Do you miss it when you don't come? Why or why not? What would your ideal church look like? For my family, I would prefer a more intellectual, learning-oriented church. What would you prefer? How can the church better serve you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I know a large part of what draws us to and keeps us at church every weekend is the Eucharist. Since our faith tradition teaches that this communion is the actual Body and Blood of Christ (therefore imparting real strength and eternal life), we don't want to not be there. Since we see ourselves as unified through experiencing this together, we also find fellowship with each other important and so have the traditional and Biblical agape meal together after the service. Of course, not every comes every weekend, some people do leave after the service, things come up, schedules can make a demand, etc. but being at church is pretty high priority for most. Anyway, that's what helps in our case and it won't be the same in churches where the Eucharist isn't viewed the same way (I was just answering your question, but realize it's not the answer that will work for every situation). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 The Eucharist, physical and spiritual communion with Jesus, Mary and the Saints, is what keeps me coming back as often as I can. "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." I go as often as possible and teach my kids to also to go as often as possible. During some times of the year it can be up to 3 times a week that we can commune. In the earliest church, and in many monasteries across the world, Christians commune every day (except a few days which are designated as "No Liturgy" days.) The Divine Liturgy is so important that in some times and places during war, once a Divine Liturgy had begun, even though the church was being bombed all around the Liturgy went on. There is one story I heard where the entire village was bombed all around during a Divine Liturgy (I think this was during WWII in Germany maybe? - someone chime in if they know this one) and after the service the parishioners came out to a town desolated, but the church was spared. This is the kind of devotion and church attendance that is worthy of emulation. Can I get an Amen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TianXiaXueXiao Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I'm also Orthodox, and aside from what Milovany stated about the Eucharist, I would add that the thing that keeps church as a top priority in our lives is that it is the healing refuge away from the self and all its tiresome demands. When we enter the church for communion and prayer we are approaching God in heaven and our aim is to 'lay aside all earthly cares.' I'm sure that this may not be the case for all Orthodox Christians, but for my family there is nothing to prefer or seek over and above the wisdom and grace already offered and received in our church services. We don't view the church as something that serves us. The Church is the bride of Christ and we serve Him, however unworthy each of its members are to do so, as He ministers to us through the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TianXiaXueXiao Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Amen, Jennifer B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Similar to milovany, our church body believes, teaches, and confesses that the point of attending the Divine Service is to receive the gifts of God (that's why it's called the "Divine Service" - it's God's service to us). We go to church to hear the Word proclaimed and receive the Sacraments, because we believe that God creates and sustains faith through the means of grace He entrusted to the Church. And so the common reasons to not go - "I can feel close to God outside of church", "I can serve God outside of church" - are muted somewhat, because "going to church" isn't about us serving God, but God serving us, and the Sacraments, God's gifts to us, are entrusted to the Church and are only to be found there. Unfortunately, too many members don't know what our church body believes, let alone be able to confess that truth themselves, because too often pastors and churches are failing to *teach* :(. And that's my biggest complaint about our church, and one of the biggest things I'd look for in an ideal church - that the pastor and teachers center their teaching around the core doctrines of the church. That we *actually* believe, teach and confess the things we *say* we believe, teach, and confess. That our core doctrine is treated as the active and living foundation it's meant to be (and not as a museum piece sitting in the corner); that the core basics of the faith are kept front and center and everything is explicitly linked back to them (instead of as a bunch of boring basics that must be learnt in order to get on to the "good stuff"); that the goal of teaching the faith and all learning in the Church is: faith in Christ. Too many sermons in my church assume that everyone present knows the basics, so they don't need to be explicitly mentioned :(. And too many hymns and songs are merely consistent with Scripture - they are true enough if considered properly, but you need outside teaching in order to be able to consider them properly. Except that the hymns and the liturgy and the sermon are supposed to be *teaching* us the faith, and if even *they* require listeners to have outside knowledge of the core teachings of the faith - well, where *are* we supposed to learn the faith??? Ugh, I'm tired of the only Gospel being in the Absolution and the Eucharist :(. (But at least it *is* there somewhere.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Ugh, I'm tired of the only Gospel being in the Absolution and the Eucharist :(. (But at least it *is* there somewhere.) True, if all we hear is about Absolution and the Eucharist, growth in walking with Christ and in Christ can be frustrating. Good teaching is very important. Without a guide, we can go off in our minds and make up all kinds of crazy doctrines that do not lead to union with Christ. I would agree that if my parish priest was not helping me grow as my Spiritual Father and guide and if he wasn't an excellent teacher, but he is, I would still come to church as often as possible, but it might be a frustrating situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 It seems like I am hearing most from people who are dedicated to attending church. I wonder if I could also get responses from those who do not manage to attend church much but who are, nevertheless, believers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 This is a spin-off from the thread about kids skipping church for sports. I am a sometimes-lonely Sunday school teacher who works really hard. I want to know what would make church more relevant and desirable to other believers. People are busy, I know, but why is church low on the priority list. Do you miss it when you don't come? Why or why not? What would your ideal church look like? For my family, I would prefer a more intellectual, learning-oriented church. What would you prefer? How can the church better serve you? I am a Protestant, so I will have a different take than some of the previous posters. I don't claim to speak for all Protestants, just me! If a church teaches according to scripture (they teach Christianity, in other words), it is relevant. There is nothing they need to do to "make" the church relevant. It is not the job of the church to make itself desirable to believers. By nature, believers should desire to gather together. I believe that the place church takes on someone's personal priority list is a direct reflection of the depth of their faith. Now, in order to encourage people to deepen their faith, there needs to be discipleship. This discipleship doesn't need to take place in any one location. Sunday morning is fine, but so is any other morning, afternoon or night. A church that wants to disciple it's members will not limit itself. The people involved in ministry, both those who minister by profession and as lay ministers, need to step out of the traditional schedule and conduct ministry in a variety of ways and places. A Tuesday afternoon Bible study, a Thursday night Bible study, a one on one Bible study, meeting for pizza if the person doesn't desire Bible study, whatever it takes. As people mature in their faith, they will desire to fellowship with other believers for the purpose of encouraging them in their faith and doing so will move higher on their priority list. Church doesn't need to take place on Sunday morning, and there are a great many people who can't attend on Sunday morning, however, when taken as a whole, the percentage of the people who cannot do so is quite small. I think this category includes such people as health care professionals, public servants such as firefighters and police officers, those who take a call rotation for the purpose of maintaining public utilities, the disabled and elderly, those who are caring for people who can't come to church, such as a disabled or elderly person, and so on. A teen who is working at a retail establishment or who is attending an academic or sporting event that is regularly preventing them from participating in church life would not fall into this category, nor would an adult who chooses to overwork him or herself to the point of exhaustion so that Sunday is the only time they can get some sleep (notice, I said chooses, not needs to in order to support their family). For people who can't attend on Sunday morning (or even if they just won't attend), the church can provide additional opportunities at non-traditional times if they allow themselves to get creative, both in time and location. The people who find themselves in this situation are also responsible for getting creative on their own, as well. They can seek out opportunities to gather with other Christians outside of the traditional Sunday morning routine. My church does a decent job of this, not perfect, but decent. For children, there is Sunday School at one of three hours on Sunday morning and a Sunday evening Bible Study program. For teens, there is a Sunday School hour on Sunday morning and a Bible study evening during the week that varies by grade. They also have service opportunities and fun opportunities, but these are at irregular intervals. Adults have a choice of three different hours of Sunday School on Sunday mornings. They also have the following available: Monday night men's Bible study, Monday night women's Bible study (two to choose from), Monday night couples Bible Study, Tuesday morning women's Bible study w/childcare up to age 12, Tuesday morning 6 am men's Bible Study, Wednesday night support groups with childcare available, and Thursday morning women's Bible study. There is a Single Adult fellowship monthly and a Senior Adult fellowship monthly. Sunday school classes are also encouraged to meet together for further study outside of Sunday morning and so many meet together once or twice a month to explore something more in depth than they would be able to on Sunday mornings. In addition to the Bible study opportunities, the youth pastor attends football and basketball games at the local high schools and works outside traditional church hours to minister to the youth and their families. He's a gem & works way to hard. He does have a small group of lay people that help him in this endeavor as well. All of these Sunday School and Bible Study times are taught by lay people, with the exception of the teen Sunday School, which is taught by the youth pastor and then breaks into smaller, lay led groups, for discussion and prayer time. For three or four consecutive years we had Saturday night "Sunday School" and a Saturday night worship service, but it was discontinued due to a lack of interest. 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Carolinagirl1 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 We do travel a lot on weekends so we end up missing church some, but we hate to miss because we love our church. First of all, the sermons need to keep your attention. If the sermons are good, and are relevant to life as we know it, you don't want to miss anything. Second, when we joined our church, our children's minister started a mom's group (for which she called and invited each of us personally) with the idea that if you get the parents to church, then they will bring the kids. Our mom's group met one night a week and did some type of study. It was a nice time for fellowship and just to get out of the house for some female bonding. We'd have a mom's night out at a restaurant every so often too. It was a brilliant idea because that was how we made friends at our new church. Then we had some members call and ask us if we'd be interested in a supper club with a few other couples. From these groups, all of the participants attend Sunday school together and we have a great time in Sunday school and we pick some really good studies to do. Right now we are doing an Andy Stanley DVD. When the parents want to come, the kids come by default. We have an active children's program where the kids participate in the services quite often so a lot of times we will come back to town early so we don't miss their participation in the services (children's choir, handbells, palm sunday, Christmas play, etc...) I know some of that sounds a little superficial, but it is all part of the big picture. A church needs to be a place of refuge, welcoming, not clique-ish, and the sermons need to be captivating and thought provoking and build you up spiritually and bring you closer to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer132 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 My ideal church is where the members are tight knit and truly care for one another through prayer, generosity, and quality time together outside of Sunday morning. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I want a church with milk for those who need it and meat for those who need it (many sermons can offer both). I want a church that emphasizes service to each other and to the community. I want a church that has good musical content so that we can exhort each other through spiritual songs as well as praise God. I want a church devoid (as much as possible) of legalism. I want a church where we can "take chances, make mistakes, and get messy," (To quote Ms. Frizzle!) I want a church where you see the Body of Christ in action, not through programs but through organic interaction with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I want a church where you see the Body of Christ in action, not through programs but through organic interaction with each other. Well said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 What I would like to see in the church from the members is civility at min. To me, civility doesnt include cliquing. I left because of the verbal and physical bullying in the youth group. I went to a neighbor's funeral service at church when I was ill and not looking my best a few years ago. People whose kids I had led in youth group for years wouldnt acknowlege my presence...too detrimental to their social status. wow! I'm speechless. I've been in cliquish churches before... but *that* is horrible. I wouldn't want to go to a church like that either. :grouphug: I'm also Orthodox, so I can't really add to what was already stated about the importance of the Eucharist and the church being a place of refuge. I also realize that those who do not hold to a sacramental belief about Church/Christianity will have completely different needs for their church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolinagirl1 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 If the church is preaching and teaching scripture, it is relevant. No need to dress it up to attract people, seriously! If you gain a following with entertainment you have to maintain that entertainment to keep them, and that's bad juju. Now, when it comes to specific programs things like weekly discipleship for adults and memory work systems for the kids can be very helpful for keeping them in the word throughout the week and wanting and needing the fellowship and accountability that comes with Sunday morning communal worship. Even simple things like punch cards for verse memory can be very helpful. But that's not going to attract someone who wouldnt otherwise want to attend, it just helps tie in Sunday morning to the rest of their week a bit, in forming good bible reading and scripture memory habits :) All Christian churches should be teaching scripture. Yes, that should be a given, but preaching is a gift and some are better than others at making the church congregation appreciate how it relates to their own lives. If they have that gift then they shouldn't have to worry about maintaining the "entertainment" value. I'm Methodist and our pastors serve terms so we see a variety of preaching styles, and I have to be honest with you, sometimes we lose part of the congregation when we get a new pastor. It's not because they aren't preaching and teaching scripture, but it's because they don't relay it in a way that the congregation can appy. The congregation needs to be spiritually fed and it is up to a pastor to make sure they convey their message in a way that people can understand, remember, and apply. I was trying to give an honest answer for why some don't make it a priority to get to church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 For us, preaching is really important. We want to hear something new or at least a new angle on something we already know. We find it difficult to handle sermons that are just review of concepts already learned with no new insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El... Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 We moved four months ago and have not found a church yet, in spite of researching online and visiting a new place weekly. Would it help you if I told you what we are looking for? Or, what makes us not come back? I'm not sure we are your target; we WILL find a church because that is meaningful to us. Anyway! I want the kids' care to be safe and organized. I want to see two adults by policy at all times, and I don't want a confused shuffle over who is supposed to be "in there this week with the kiddos". Ideologically, I'd rather hear my 7yo say she learned about showing love to others than that she learned about "preparing to battle the world." I want the adult Sunday School or small group to be interactive and interesting. I'd rather be challenged, academically and ethically, than re-learn stories. If it is a church-full of new believers, I do understand that basics are important. I do NOT want to be "taught" a bunch of political opinions or us-v.-them rhetoric. If I wanted that, I'd watch Fox News. I want the pastor to preach in a way that is insightful and genuine. I don't care for scatter-shot platitudes. I really am looking for intelligence. Man, I sound so demanding right now. I know finding a church isn't all about me, but these are my kids' minds at stake, and I feel careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pronghorn Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 I agree on dumping the politics. Ideally, I would like a church where one person could be volunteering for right to life and another person fighting for marriage equality for same-sex couples, and all would be supported and affirmed. Now I am really dreaming, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I will tell you what I see in my dad's church that makes it so successful. There are multiple services to meet people when then can. I think at Christmas there was a 5,7,9,11 and a Christmas morning (unusual for a Protestant Church.) This is not a mega-church but a church that strives to make itself relevant for the people attending. There are lots of Bible studies, book groups, news discussion groups to address religion in a context that is modern. The youth group is wildly successful. There is active involvement in local and international mission work. The pastors work hard to be involved in the lives of the congregation - attending sporting events, family events, etc. It is a welcoming and affirming church that has met the issues of the day, grappled with them and moved forward together to be the church that meets the needs of all. I wish I lived close by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I would like to find one that is 100% about living values, and 0% about beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Sometimes I like upbeat noisy music. Sometimes I want quiet hymns. I guess I'm ok with most kinds of music. I always want people who don't bicker and gossip. I prefer intellectual teachings. I like to hear maybe a mini history lesson to put a scripture in perspective, or a message about a particular philosophical topic and what the bible says about that topic. I'd like to see a church involved in just a few outreaches so that everyone can get behind those few. If there is outreach after outreach people get stretched too thin. There's more, I'm sure, but that's what popped into my head for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 We are having church trouble right now, so this may be describing the minimum rather than the ideal, but here it goes: 1. Worship should be God centered, not sermon centered. A year long series on Job with each sermon lasting 45 minutes, requiring all hymns to be truncated is just not healthy. 2. The church must be reaching out or it is dead. If 100 percent of the budget is keeping the lights on and the preacher fed, it is time to turn off the lights. 3. There should be genuine opportunity for involvement for all ages. What that looks like will vary, but it is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TianXiaXueXiao Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 We are having church trouble right now, so this may be describing the minimum rather than the ideal, but here it goes: 1. Worship should be God centered, not sermon centered. A year long series on Job with each sermon lasting 45 minutes, requiring all hymns to be truncated is just not healthy. 2. The church must be reaching out or it is dead. If 100 percent of the budget is keeping the lights on and the preacher fed, it is time to turn off the lights. 3. There should be genuine opportunity for involvement for all ages. What that looks like will vary, but it is important. Have you considered visiting an Eastern Orthodox Christian church? It will meet all three of your expressed desires. The liturgy (work of the people) that is celebrated most often is the same service (although truncated) as it was over 1600 years ago when it was celebrated by St. John Chrysostom. Once a year we get to experience the Liturgy of St. James the Apostle on his feast day and 10 times per year we enjoy the longer and very beautiful Liturgy of St. Basil the Great. The liturgy is divided into two services: the Liturgy of the Word which culminates with the Gospel reading wherein we hear the Word of God and the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Thanksgiving) which culminates with the faithful Orthodox Christians approaching the Lord to partake of the Mystical Supper. The priest gives an instructional homily (sermon) that is often relevant to the day's Gospel, Epistle, or Feast immediately following the Gospel reading and right before the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. I don't know what non-Orthodox church budgets look like, but Orthodox church budgets will very depending on the size and status of a parish. Some churches are mission churches and therefore have very tight budgets with heavy reliance on the faithful to volunteer to see to certain needs of the community. The priest will have a stipend but it will usually not be enough to support a family on. During this phase of parish development, the church may be literally housed in a parishioner's home until the church has received enough financial support from the community for a dedicated building. I think all churches have at least one all-parish meeting per year in which all the financial and stewardship details of the congregation are shared with everyone. The church has a council with members that are nominated and voted in on a rotating basis. Most parishes will have budget line items for Sunday School, youth activities, choir, outreach ministries, building maintenance and improvements, cleaning, fellowship (Agape meals) furnishings, etc. Just as St. John the Baptist leaped withing the womb of his mother, Elizabeth, upon the arrival of Mary who was pregnant with his Lord, Orthodox Christians believe that infants have not only the capacity of faith but the need for being joined (baptized into) to the Church from the start. Orthodox do not believe in children being separated from the rest of the community during Divine services. Children are expected to be present and participate at an age-appropriate level. Young boys are encouraged to serve as acolytes, and young girls are often encouraged to participate in choir singing and chanting. Older children often help beleaguered parents with young ones by reading stories to the little ones, taking them up to light candles and venerate icons, or by assisting them as they approach the Chalice for Communion. As they say, "if you don't hear babies crying, the church is dying." Edited to provide links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Things I appreciated about our church back home, and a church I grew up in. A mixture of traditional worship hymns and more contemporary worship songs. A music program for all ages. Drama/Musicals at Christmas/Easter. Adult Sunday School courses which varied by topic/type -- so we could choose. Kids' Sunday School. Family Worship,with a family room -- or nursery for younger children. There was a lot going on at our churches growing up and as an adult. We couldn't do it all. We lived too far away to go back and forth all the time, but we did have friends who the olders could carpool with for Youth Group, and we tried to make certain events as we could. We aren't in church as often as I was growing up -- and I don't think that is a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Our church is a very rapidly growing church. I grew up in a smaller (150 or so people) Baptist church and we are not attending faithfully a Wesleyan church of 1000+. Some things that really pull people in: Several different kids programs but yet kids of all ages are VERY welcome to stay with the parents during the service Upbeat music but also some traditional hymns Preaching that is Biblical and doesn't hold back from preaching the truth but does it in love and is relevant. A push to integrate the age groups---they purposely put the 2 kids sections on opposite ends so that everyone must mix and mingle in the middle with the kids Lots of different opportunities---from very indepth Bible studies like BSF to "new comers" Bible studies for those that have never studied the Bible at all Various mens and womens groups including ones for elderly and single adults (widowed, divorced, etc0 Lots of volunteer opportunities that reach out to our local community Mentoring program---people can request a 1:1 mentor that meets with them 1 time a week--for anyone going through life struggles---death, divorce, cancer, difficult pregnancy, substance abuse, struggling with family, or just someone without anyone else One thing I really liked as a newcomer (and remember I am coming from a small church where I knew EVERYONE and their extended family for 30 years) to a large church was that in the women's groups they would do a lot of mix and mingle. We would go on a hike and you would partner up with 1-2 other ladies, walk about 10 minutes. Then we would gather for a short devotional though or something and then we would all pick DIFFERENT partners and go another 10 minutes, then switch again. It really helped to get to know people as well as avoid the cliques that are so common. I know the leaders are very good friends but when we get together for group activities they purposely don't pair up together but rather mix with everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It seems like I am hearing most from people who are dedicated to attending church. I wonder if I could also get responses from those who do not manage to attend church much but who are, nevertheless, believers. Maybe add this to or edit the original post (or the subject line) with this ..... that way more people will see it and hear what you're looking for. Just a thought and my apologies for taking a tack different than you were thinking/hoping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Have you considered visiting an Eastern Orthodox Christian church? It will meet all three of your expressed desires. I'd love to visit sometime. We have to tread carefully with major changes because both of our families have been active in the same small denomination for over a century and we don't want to be insensitive to them or lightly turn our backs on our own traditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I want a church with milk for those who need it and meat for those who need it (many sermons can offer both). I want a church that emphasizes service to each other and to the community. I want a church that has good musical content so that we can exhort each other through spiritual songs as well as praise God. I want a church devoid (as much as possible) of legalism. I want a church where we can "take chances, make mistakes, and get messy," (To quote Ms. Frizzle!) I want a church where you see the Body of Christ in action, not through programs but through organic interaction with each other. I feel much the same, although I don't care as much about music (don't shoot me) and I don't mind programs as they help people know how to plug in. For me, the church is the body of believers. I need a good group to call friends and "family." I was so touched when I told my Sunday School class that my cousin's wife passed away this week and the first question they asked was, "Are they local? Can we take them some meals or clean for them?" They genuinely wanted to help. My cousin is not local (they are on the other side of the country, but it was wonderful to feel the connectedness. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It seems like I am hearing most from people who are dedicated to attending church. I wonder if I could also get responses from those who do not manage to attend church much but who are, nevertheless, believers. I miss more than I should. But things that help are having services at multiple times. (for instance, if I sleep in I can go to the 5pm service), easy parking, services of a predictable length, and beauty. Oh, and a welcoming atmosphere that means I can show up in my work out clothes if need be, and no one will bat an eye. Better I show up in casual or even dirty clothes than not show up at all. That takes away a lot of excuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It seems like I am hearing most from people who are dedicated to attending church. I wonder if I could also get responses from those who do not manage to attend church much but who are, nevertheless, believers. I will weigh in here. We are still fairly regular attenders, but getting ready to leave our church, and will likely find somewhere to land where we can be on the periphery and still have some sense of community, enjoy the prayers, etc. Our attendance will be more spotty, though not entirely "irregular" either if that makes any sense to you. Legalism, inordinate, suffocating demands on the time of those that volunteer are the reasons we will be going. Legalism was not an issue when we first began attending this church, but recent changes in church leadership are very concerning, and their attitudes are harshly judgy and uncomfortable. On top of which, I play the piano on a regular basis and they've upped the worship team practice time to 2+ hours per week, my husband does their Sunday morning snow removal and salting of sidewalks, we teach a children's class which requires quite a bit of preparation and effort, dh also runs sound for Sunday morning services, they have us on the special music schedule again requiring more time, have attempted to over schedule our son for a variety of things they want to assume he will do for them despite his health issues since the car accident, and recently they basically demanded MORE of us...not nicely asking, not even stopping to consider how much we already contribute, but basically getting snarky wanting more and trying to guilt trip us into it. This is COMMON in protestant churches. Super, super common. So, we are opting out. Done. One by one we are slowly extricating ourselves from our responsibilities giving leadership deadlines for when our last day for this or that ministry will be, and we will leave when we say we are regardless of whether or not they have found replacements. The end. It will not affect what we believe. Not one little bit. It will affect how much we participate in organized religious life in the future. I find that quite freeing, and am looking forward to the lack of stress. It just shouldn't be this hard to participate in a community of believers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 We gave up church many years ago, and mostly for a lot of the same reasons FaithManor posted about. We did a lot, and we're introverts. The amount of time we were spending helping out was already a big strain on us all, and then the pastor started a push for everyone to do even more. He went so far as to require every single member to take a quiz that pinpointed their spiritual gifts, with the clearly stated intent of getting everybody even more involved. It wasn't the only thing by far, but it was a contributing factor to our leaving. At this point I can't see us ever even considering going back to church again, because I think we've all moved more toward agnosticism than belief now. But with that in mind, if an ideal church existed for me it would meet most of these requirements -- No legalism. None. No statement of faith. An atmosphere that's open to and encourages all sorts of religious and spiritual questions. Volunteering would really and truly be volunteering. No pressure, and no assumption that anyone already volunteering is willing or able to do more. If you can't get a volunteer(s) for something, maybe that something doesn't need to happen. Lots of involvement in social justice type causes. Emphasis on helping out in the immediate community more than sending/sponsoring missionaries overseas. Feeding a hungry child is evangelism, as is helping elderly or disabled people to do their errands or take care of their homes. No spending church money or fund raising to send youth on what are essentially summer vacations and calling them mission trips. See above about helping out in the community. No assumption that every church member shares the same political views. Especially in presidential election years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I miss more than I should. But things that help are having services at multiple times. (for instance, if I sleep in I can go to the 5pm service), easy parking, services of a predictable length, and beauty. Oh, and a welcoming atmosphere that means I can show up in my work out clothes if need be, and no one will bat an eye. Better I show up in casual or even dirty clothes than not show up at all. That takes away a lot of excuses. Quoting myself, to clarify. I obviously go to church for spiritual reasons, not because the parking spaces are plentiful. But I was responding as someone that means to go to church, but sometimes misses. I used to miss a LOT more, but now, as a Catholic, it is so much easier to make sure to be there. So maybe my insights will help with those that are members, mean to go, but somehow end up missing more often than not. Oh, and one other factor. No one gets upset or gives you the stink eye at my church if you show up late. I get that being punctual is important. But I can't tell you how many services I missed in the past, because by the time the kids were loaded up I realized I was going to be late. And that meant stares, etc. So I'd just skip it. Now, I'll just blend in with the mass of people in the back of the sanctuary, and it's fine. So no excuse there :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 No legalism. None. No statement of faith. An atmosphere that's open to and encourages all sorts of religious and spiritual questions. Volunteering would really and truly be volunteering. No pressure, and no assumption that anyone already volunteering is willing or able to do more. If you can't get a volunteer(s) for something, maybe that something doesn't need to happen. Lots of involvement in social justice type causes. Emphasis on helping out in the immediate community more than sending/sponsoring missionaries overseas. Feeding a hungry child is evangelism, as is helping elderly or disabled people to do their errands or take care of their homes. No spending church money or fund raising to send youth on what are essentially summer vacations and calling them mission trips. See above about helping out in the community. No assumption that every church member shares the same political views. Especially in presidential election years. Other than no statement of faith, I just realized my parish meets every point on this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 . This is COMMON in protestant churches. Super, super common. Oh, I am so sorry that is your experience! It sounds like you really feel you have been taken advantage of and that is horrible. However, it doesn't have to happen and I don't think it is "common" in Protestant churches (maybe certain denominations more than others?) Dad is a pastor and I grew up intimately involved in a number of different congregations over the years. My experience is that the Pastor's family often has to contribute WAY more time and effort than they might like...but that it was not expected from members of the congregation (and all our churches had a sexton that was paid to take care of shoveling and that type of work.). Hope you find a better, happier place for you and your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I seem to be getting more bothered by the many people who view church as an "all you can eat buffet" and not a " pot luck". Church isn't just about what we can get from going but our motives should also be about how can we serve our church and the people in it. Please, don't be offended. Not everyone is like that but it does bother me when believers have that type of attitude. I'm quoting you not because I believe you are like this but because I've heard the same thing so many times at dying churches. Members get very offended that others, particularly those with families, don't want to attend a church that does nothing besides one very traditional worship service and maybe a ladies' Bible study and the occasional pot luck. They use the "you should be here to serve, not to be served" line to mask "this is what serves us and we're not changing." The church we attend right now has 2 ways I could serve: watch my own children in the nursery (no others there) and decorate the church for Christmas (while my kids run around unsupervised). I want a church where I can grow spiritually, including through service, but if the established members want no change, ever, I can't bring anything to the "pot luck" and it looks to them like I'm sitting around complaining that there's nothing on the buffet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKim Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I agree with the posters who said you don't need to make church relevant. I also tend to agree with Spurgeon, though not on everything (he was even against instruments in church and I am not). He asked if we should be feeding sheep, or entertaining goats. http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/amusement.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I agree with Cammie that it happens but is not common. I am a regular attender. I keep going because they are my family (not by my blood). Church is about relationship and fellowship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Ivy Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I want a church with milk for those who need it and meat for those who need it (many sermons can offer both). I want a church that emphasizes service to each other and to the community. I want a church that has good musical content so that we can exhort each other through spiritual songs as well as praise God. I want a church devoid (as much as possible) of legalism. I want a church where we can "take chances, make mistakes, and get messy," (To quote Ms. Frizzle!) I want a church where you see the Body of Christ in action, not through programs but through organic interaction with each other. OH OH OH!!! Come to mine!! :) I have never liked church, even though I grew up in one. I know some of it is a change of heart and maturity, but until we found our current church, it always felt like a drudgery. (Of course, everyone's definition of legalism, good musical content, and good sermons drastically differ.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherry in OH Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I'm quoting you not because I believe you are like this but because I've heard the same thing so many times at dying churches. Members get very offended that others, particularly those with families, don't want to attend a church that does nothing besides one very traditional worship service and maybe a ladies' Bible study and the occasional pot luck. They use the "you should be here to serve, not to be served" line to mask "this is what serves us and we're not changing." The church we attend right now has 2 ways I could serve: watch my own children in the nursery (no others there) and decorate the church for Christmas (while my kids run around unsupervised). I want a church where I can grow spiritually, including through service, but if the established members want no change, ever, I can't bring anything to the "pot luck" and it looks to them like I'm sitting around complaining that there's nothing on the buffet. A very traditional worship service is what my family prefers. Local churches seem to assume that all families with young children want contemporary services. All the family programming seems to be centered on those services. Contemporary services leave me feeling as if I’ve been to a bad rock concert. Music played at deafening volume does not inspire me; it gives me a headache. Flashing screens and pseudo-child created video do not enhance my experience. I do not want to hug or be hugged by strangers. I do not want hands laid on me. My children trying to escape noise and visual stimulation by burrowing into me provide more than enough physical contact. I find beauty in the rituals of traditional services. I love listening to music played on a pipe organ. This type of service does not overwhelm my children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I've not been a regular attender of church since college, and am not actively seeking a church right now. I've been to a few Baptist churches in the area, but I don't feel peace there...most services I've been too have been so bone-breaking loud I can't even listen to the music without hands clamped over my ears. The last time I went for a Christmas service I was horribly upset that there were no hymnals. All the lyrics were displayed on an overhead projector. Now I know most of the words to most Christmas hymns, but I don't know all the chords, and I can't sing soprano. I sort of rely on the written music to pick out my line, you know. I felt displaced, anxious, overwhelmed by noise and stress. I don't want a place where I feel compelled to attend every event, help with every VBS (hey, I'll happily paint and or design any props you want, and have--even when I didn't go myself) but what I want most in a church and church service is peace. With a capital P. I want to go into that building, feel the cares of the world slip away and be able just to meditate quietly on words spoken, words sung and prayers said. I go out of my way to make my own home as peaceful and restful as possible for our family, and I guess it shouldn't surprise me that I would be looking for exactly the same in a church home. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 A very traditional worship service is what my family prefers. Local churches seem to assume that all families with young children want contemporary services. All the family programming seems to be centered on those services. Contemporary services leave me feeling as if I’ve been to a bad rock concert. Music played at deafening volume does not inspire me; it gives me a headache. Flashing screens and pseudo-child created video do not enhance my experience. I do not want to hug or be hugged by strangers. I do not want hands laid on me. My children trying to escape noise and visual stimulation by burrowing into me provide more than enough physical contact. I find beauty in the rituals of traditional services. I love listening to music played on a pipe organ. This type of service does not overwhelm my children. I'm actually not a fan of contemporary services either. As teenagers those of us in the youth group tried hard to convince the 40 year old women that 80's contemporary Christian music wasn't going to draw the young folks in. By "very traditional" I actually meant "everyone has sat in the same spot for the last 50 years, singing the exact same songs at the same tempo, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I'm quoting you not because I believe you are like this but because I've heard the same thing so many times at dying churches. Members get very offended that others, particularly those with families, don't want to attend a church that does nothing besides one very traditional worship service and maybe a ladies' Bible study and the occasional pot luck. They use the "you should be here to serve, not to be served" line to mask "this is what serves us and we're not changing." The church we attend right now has 2 ways I could serve: watch my own children in the nursery (no others there) and decorate the church for Christmas (while my kids run around unsupervised). I want a church where I can grow spiritually, including through service, but if the established members want no change, ever, I can't bring anything to the "pot luck" and it looks to them like I'm sitting around complaining that there's nothing on the buffet. But serving one another is different from SERVING THE CHURCH ORGANIZATION. I mean you can serve like that at the library. Now visiting shut-in elderly, calling someone who's kids have the flu and saying, "I'm bringing soup over." Praying (and I mean REALLY praying) for someone has a serious need, volunteering to take someone's colicky infant for a few hours so new mama can sleep...that's serving. And that kind of serving needs to happen for people who attend church and for those who don't attend church. If Christians would serve their neighbors the way that they serve their church organizations, then people might be more attracted to attending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemommy Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Not a church, but I love our bible study group. It's a small group of broken, authentic, and loving people. When I first moved and a new friend invited me, I was wary. I went, because my dh was traveling a ton and I deperately needed something. These people took us in, made us feel welcome, and offered real, physical help. When dh is out of town, they help me get my kids where they need to be, offer to be the person I can call in the middle of the night, or take my kids for a couple hours so I can breathe. We come from all walks of life-business people, hunters, stay at home moms, stay at home dads, entertainers. We have had arguments and disagreements. We challenge each other to look deeper into the word of God. We go beyond the discussion questions and communicate all week about what we've found. We volunteer together. We support each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemom Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I don't believe that I need to attend church in a man made building with four walls to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. His Spirit lives inside ME-not a buidling. I found that regular church attendance actually had a negative effect on my relationship with others. The more involved I became in one or another church, the more I found myself judging other believers who did not believe the exact same way that I did. IMO that is not a picture of Christ. Matthew 18:20 states: "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them." Nothing to lead me to believe I have to be in a pretty white building on a corner lot to rejoice with Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I found that regular church attendance actually had a negative effect on my relationship with others. The more involved I became in one or another church, the more I found myself judging other believers who did not believe the exact same way that I did. IMO that is not a picture of Christ. Wow, I'm so sorry that is how you have experienced church. I totally agree that that is not a picture of Christ. For me, where I attend, the homily tends to focus on seeing others as made in the image of God, and on the dignity of every person. Which helps me to be so much less judgemental. When you look at someone as the image of God, it's hard to be narrow minded towards them, at least for me. Also, confessing my own sins every week, focusing on them and really thinking about them, reminds me I have no room to judge others. It also helps that our church outreach is not aimed at Christians, or converting people, etc. It's about food banks and free medical care, or, my personal favorite, paying for a quite hotel room that they set up as a study room, when they found out many homeless families with kids were living there. The kids struggled to do homework when there were large families with small kids in one room, so now they can go to the study room, staffed by volunteers teachers, for help and a quiet spot. The church group doing this also provides transportation home for kids that want to stay after school for tutoring sessions or clubs or extra help, and for field trips as well. They had found that the kids were offered tutoring after school, but there was no bus to bring them home so they couldn't go. Now they can. None of these kids attend our church, none are Catholic even, and most are not church goers. Doesn't matter. So when I see those kinds of projects, when I see our priest asking us to volunteer to visit those in prison, etc...it's hard to judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 what I want most in a church and church service is peace. With a capital P. I want to go into that building, feel the cares of the world slip away and be able just to meditate quietly on words spoken, words sung and prayers said. Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 what I want most in a church and church service is peace. With a capital P. I want to go into that building, feel the cares of the world slip away and be able just to meditate quietly on words spoken, words sung and prayers said. Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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