help me understand this mentality...sorry...a semi long rant

[SKL]

I agree that the effects on the kid are very individual.  It's another one of those things we have to trust parents to figure out for their own children.

 

I had a schoolmate as a kid who had some severe physical disability.  His stepmom forced him to do fairly rigorous physical activity for his health and so that he wouldn't end up completely immobile.  Eventually he got one of those fancy three-wheel bikes and he started biking all around to raise awareness for his disease.  I would say it became a passion.  I think that is a heck of a lot better than having him sit around at home.  But then again, another person might not have benefited from the activity.

[JFSinIL]

I remember growing up, my kid sister and I were always being dragged to our younger brother's football or baseball practice.  We were so bored!  Eventually he switched to running, and we got old enough to stay home.  He ended up with a MS in Sports Medicine and a tenured job at a S. Calif high school teaching Biology and supervising the sports program. 

 

Another local family where I am now revolved their young kid's lives around the local children's theater program.  One of their daughters ended up majoring in theater at college...and is now Jasmine on Broadway in Disney's Aladdin.

 

So sometimes letting the interests of a kid be that intense pays off, in that they pursue it into adulthood.  But unless the entire family is into the sport or hobby, don't make family life revolve around it.  My sister and I always felt second-class citizens and that everything revolved around Mike. 

[Luanne]

My nephews and niece are big into sports.  We haven't seen any of them for years. They live in Utah.  We live in Colorado.  When my father passed away last May, only my brother and his wife came to the funeral.  Their children were too busy with sports.  I'm sorry, but judgmental or not, that is totally wrong.  The entire family should have been here.  Missing one game for an important thing like a funeral is not going to altar their lives forever.  I'm with you OP... I don't understand it either.  I'm not against children participating in sports, but it has become more important to a lot of people than anything else in the world.  To me, that is just plain wrong.

[Wheres Toto]

We don't have the Wednesday night restriction around here that I've ever seen.  What we do have is CCD classes but each parish seems to do them a different night, and a very diverse population in general so there's no sense in restricting things based on one religion.

 

My oldest spent 15-20 hours a week at dance.  We spent whole weekends travelling to competitions, tons of money, etc. for 14 years.  She never had any desire to do anything else (except cheerleading in high school - a very NON-competitive group - and she ended up choreographing their half-time routines).  The effect it had seems to be - she's very healthy, great at time management and prioritizing what she needs to get done, keeps her commitments to others, gets along well with a variety of people, and has a great deal of poise and confidence.

[Pronghorn]

Here is what I wonder, as a dedicated Sunday school teacher: what would it take for people to really find value in their time at church? Throughout this thread, I am not getting a sense of loss from those who have had to quit church for the sake of sports. So, part of the problem must be in church being considered irrelevant or unimportant. Where have the churches gone wrong?

 

For my family, I would like a more intellectual, learning-oriented church. What would your ideal church be like?

[fairfarmhand]

Here is what I wonder, as a dedicated Sunday school teacher: what would it take for people to really find value in their time at church? Throughout this thread, I am not getting a sense of loss from those who have had to quit church for the sake of sports. So, part of the problem must be in church being considered irrelevant or unimportant. Where have the churches gone wrong?

 

For my family, I would like a more intellectual, learning-oriented church. What would your ideal church be like?

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE start a new thread for this discussion.

 

I am very interested in the answer.  I'm seeing from this thread that there are many people who don't want to have to choose between their church worship/fellowship and their kids' activities, so I'd love to hear suggestions about content, time, schedules, and other things.

[TranquilMind]

A friend at work mentioned that her son had expressed an interest in playing football, but was told he'd waited too late to start.  3rd grade is too late.  That is silly.  

That IS silly. 

[Carol in Cal.]

 When you serve 300 kids (house level, not including travel), pleasing all the people can't be on your radar. You just have to set the schedule and let the chips fall where they may.

OK, but then set the schedule and don't add things to it.  Or at least warn people, up front, at the 'we are about to make this commitment' point, that it's likely that extra rehearsals or practices or what have you will be added, and roughly when (like, at the end of the season, or during the month of May, or whatever.)  Or if you add things to the schedule unexpectedly, do so in a way that honors the fact that YOU are the one who screwed up in not anticipating the need for this, and THEY are the ones who are accommodating you.

[Carol in Cal.]

Also, two other things that have struck me in this thread.

 

One is about car rides being bonding time.  I totally relate to that.  We used to listen to SOTW CD's in the car, and/or have fabulous conversations, and/or make up progressive stories (I compose a paragraph, she adds one, etc.), and/or play sightseeing games, and/or talk about feelings (so much easier when you're not facing each other AND you can't leave.)  Or if nothing else I could at least hear somewhat candid conversations among various kids.

 

But most of my friends don't do any of those things.  They have newer vans with videos, or their kids play electronic games incessantly, or they have their ears plugged up with earbuds.  I'm seeing less and less of the traditional benefit to driving around in a car.  

Also, I see significant value in providing kids with unstructured time in which their imagination can run wild.  Most of the kids I see who are heavily involved in sports don't have any of that, and also are almost never alone.  This is tough on the more introverted.

[Haiku]

OK, but then set the schedule and don't add things to it.  Or at least warn people, up front, at the 'we are about to make this commitment' point, that it's likely that extra rehearsals or practices or what have you will be added, and roughly when (like, at the end of the season, or during the month of May, or whatever.) 

 

I was speaking more to the fact that group activities can't accommodate everyone's needs, desires, and preferred schedules. My husband gets people all up in arms because their kid's team was scheduled for regular practice on Cub Scouts night or CCD night or the night their other kid has practice for a different team. Or the idea that somehow certain days of the week are supposed to be sacred because they might conflict with people's church attendance. You just can't please everyone.

 

I understand that if things are added to the schedule after it's been set, it's on a schedule-at-your-own-risk basis. You can't make those thing mandatory, but you also, at least in hockey, can't always anticipate them. Sometimes teams luck into extra, unscheduled ice. It's considered bonus ice and attendance is not mandatory. Still, my husband gets people who are upset because the bonus ice is not convenient for them and want it rescheduled. No! It's bonus ice. It was lucked into and can't be rescheduled.

 

At the beginning of the season, my husband got nastygrams from parents and coaches who didn't want to travel to neighboring states for games because this was house hockey and they shouldn't have to travel. Ok, but these teams are in our league, so we have to schedule league games with them. If you don't want to go, don't go. Your kids play 8U house hockey. We'd rather you just not go than raise a stink about how terrible it is that you have games there. Then, near the end of the season, my husband got nastygrams from parents who were pissed because their coach canceled games in a neighboring state because we were forecasted for (and got) 8 inches of snow (in a region that typically doesn't get that much, so people aren't just used to it). How dare the coach cancel games and deprive their kids of play, and the coach doesn't get to just cancel games if the parents still want to go! Holy cow, folks, your kids play 8U house hockey, and my husband does not control the weather!

 

Like I said, you just can't worry about pleasing all the people because someone will always complain about what you do.

[HS Mom in NC]

 I am not getting a sense of loss from those who have had to quit church for the sake of sports.

 

They may quit some churches because those churches have too few times to choose from.  So they go to other churches that have a Friday evening service, a Saturday evening service, a Sunday morning service, a Sunday evening service and a Wednesday evening service. Or at least something other than just Sundays and Wednesdays. They may attend a church where they're traveling. They may home/hotel church some Sundays due to scheduled sports events.  They may attend their church (gasp!) less than 4 Sundays a month.

 

So, part of the problem must be in church being considered irrelevant or unimportant. Where have the churches gone wrong?

 

Church itself isn't viewed as irrelevant or unimportant, the traditional Sunday/Wednesday schedule that's considered irrelevant. There's a big difference between the two.

 

For example, churches become irrelevant when they assume the couple are both on the same page when it comes to faith.  So the canned advice to couples where they're both believers (read what the Bible says on the topic and pray about it) doesn't apply to a couple where one of them doesn't believe in the Bible and doesn't believe in a God or the same God to pray to. One may take moral issue with an option while the other doesn't.

 

 

 

[Haiku]

Just because I'm on a roll, other ridiculous things my husband has gotten complaints about:

 

1. We don't like our kid's jersey color.

2. Our kids are on separate teams but have the same jersey color.

3. Our kids are on separate teams but have different jersey colors.

4. We don't like the font their names are printed in.

5. We want a refund for the practice we missed because the rink had maintenance issues.

6. We don't like that you let that younger kid skate up.

7. We don't like that you didn't let our younger kid skate up.

8. We don't like that you won't let us help on the ice even though we are not USA Hockey certified.

9. We think the USA Hockey certification is too arduous.

10. Practice starts too early.

11. Practice runs too late.

12. We have too many games.

13. We don't have enough games.

14. We want the coach we had last year.

15. We hate the coach.

16. Why did you let that kid join the team late? Now my kid gets less ice time.

17. Why won't you let my kid join the team after registration has closed?

18. Why won't you let my 6 year old play on the same team as my 11 year old? That would be easier for me.

19. My kid didn't make the travel team, so I want a refund of the try-out fee. 

20. I don't think my kid should have gotten a penalty for that.

21. Why didn't that other kid get a penalty for that?

 

And on. And on. And on.

 

Sorry, OT, I know.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Just because I'm on a roll, other ridiculous things my husband has gotten complaints about:

 

1. We don't like our kid's jersey color.

2. Our kids are on separate teams but have the same jersey color.

3. Our kids are on separate teams but have different jersey colors.

4. We don't like the font their names are printed in.

5. We want a refund for the practice we missed because the rink had maintenance issues.

6. We don't like that you let that younger kid skate up.

7. We don't like that you didn't let our younger kid skate up.

8. We don't like that you won't let us help on the ice even though we are not USA Hockey certified.

9. We think the USA Hockey certification is too arduous.

10. Practice starts too early.

11. Practice runs too late.

12. We have too many games.

13. We don't have enough games.

14. We want the coach we had last year.

15. We hate the coach.

16. Why did you let that kid join the team late? Now my kid gets less ice time.

17. Why won't you let my kid join the team after registration has closed?

18. Why won't you let my 6 year old play on the same team as my 11 year old? That would be easier for me.

19. My kid didn't make the travel team, so I want a refund of the try-out fee.

20. I don't think my kid should have gotten a penalty for that.

21. Why didn't that other kid get a penalty for that?

 

And on. And on. And on.

 

Sorry, OT, I know.

If it makes you feel any better, DH has gotten similar nasty grams for a rec and travel basketball program.

[Pronghorn]

I can't seem to get the quote function to work. I am replying to Homeschool Mom in Arizona.

 

I am not really getting the sense in this discussion or in my life that the people who leave church are busily attending services at alternate times. There are a few, of course, who have mentioned going to church on the road etc. But I have not gotten the sense that this is widespread. I think there is really more to the problem. I get the sense that many people are pretty happily skipping church. And I wonder why.

 

Or perhaps it is simply a scheduling problem and I am missing something? I just get the feeling that church means less to many many people than it used to. Sometimes I think this thread connects somewhat with a recent thread about a kid who had nobody show up to his birthday party. It seems that community, outside of work and sports, means less than it used to. And church is communal worship and teaching. And of course the communities are flawed. But so are homeschool communities and pretty well any community involving human beings.

[Lolly]

I can't seem to get the quote function to work. I am replying to Homeschool Mom in Arizona.

 

I am not really getting the sense in this discussion or in my life that the people who leave church are busily attending services at alternate times. There are a few, of course, who have mentioned going to church on the road etc. But I have not gotten the sense that this is widespread. I think there is really more to the problem. I get the sense that many people are pretty happily skipping church. And I wonder why.

 

Or perhaps it is simply a scheduling problem and I am missing something? I just get the feeling that church means less to many many people than it used to. Sometimes I think this thread connects somewhat with a recent thread about a kid who had nobody show up to his birthday party. It seems that community, outside of work and sports, means less than it used to. And church is communal worship and teaching. And of course the communities are flawed. But so are homeschool communities and pretty well any community involving human beings.

 

This is true for my family. We are happily skipping church. Why? Church became a miserable place where more bullying went on than anywhere else I have seen. It was a place where the family unit was not celebrated, but broken apart. A place where if my husband was not in attendance with us we were frowned up. "I am sorry, but we need to discuss this with your husband..." We found this to be the case in church after church. Why would we want to be a part of that? yes, we could have continued to look. But eventually, you just stop.

[SKL]

This is true for my family. We are happily skipping church. Why? Church became a miserable place where more bullying went on than anywhere else I have seen. It was a place where the family unit was not celebrated, but broken apart. A place where if my husband was not in attendance with us we were frowned up. "I am sorry, but we need to discuss this with your husband..." We found this to be the case in church after church. Why would we want to be a part of that? yes, we could have continued to look. But eventually, you just stop.

 

Speaking of the husband thing.  I am a single mom.  This is actually great because I found out that the lady who rounds up volunteers for her events starts with the husband.  She figures if she can rope the husband in, the wife and kids will have no choice but to tag along (to take on other, less interesting duties).

[MSNative]

This is true for my family. We are happily skipping church. Why? Church became a miserable place where more bullying went on than anywhere else I have seen. It was a place where the family unit was not celebrated, but broken apart. A place where if my husband was not in attendance with us we were frowned up. "I am sorry, but we need to discuss this with your husband..." We found this to be the case in church after church. Why would we want to be a part of that? yes, we could have continued to look. But eventually, you just stop.

Wow. I am sorry you had that experience. I always attend church without my husband and have not run into that thankfully. We move quite a bit so I have been in several churches. I can't imagine if someone said that to me. Needing to discuss it with your husband? Ewwww. I'd get up and leave right then.

[MSNative]

Speaking of the husband thing. I am a single mom. This is actually great because I found out that the lady who rounds up volunteers for her events starts with the husband. She figures if she can rope the husband in, the wife and kids will have no choice but to tag along (to take on other, less interesting duties).

Wish ours did. I'd be set too! Our church wants families who use child care to volunteer in child care. I get that and don't mind. However, they want each family to volunteer twice a month- one Sunday for dad and one for mom. I had to tell them I wouldn't do that. I work and have family obligations at least one weekend a month, usually more. If I did that volunteer schedule, I'd never be in the church service, just in the childcare. I did offer to take my kids out of childcare since I understood that everyone needs to pitch in. Thankfully they understood and I didn't have to.

[LibraryLover]

I agree with the OP on a few things.

 

Finding recreational sports for 11 and 13 is impossible. I found something for my 13 yo boy but it was Sunday. We declined due to church. Now I am spending way more money for weekly classes. I don't see him advancing to travel level but its the next step.

 

Why can't sports be fun again!?!?! Less emphasis on perfection so young and just PLAY!! And not on Sundays!

 

Or Saturday. That's an issue sometimes as well.  I don't live in the bible belt, so there are other religions at play for our activities.  Our ballet school reschedules for Jewish High Holidays, and even Bat/Bar Mizvahs.  The also reschedule for finals week . Our old music program also understood attendance wasn't going to happen for some kids at certain times. I do remember some families voicing concern that everything happens on a Saturday. We have to adapt to include folks.

 

[Guest submarines]

Ikr ?

 

Dd15 had the chance to do competitive gymnastics. I thought about it for about 10 seconds. I declined. Who wants to spend their lives running around to sports ? Not me.

 

I have a friend whose daughter competes in rhythmic gymnastics. I just think spending your weekend watching kids compete with ribbons is...not my idea of time well spent.

 

Not every 15 yo who worked hard enough to be invited to do competitive gymnastics would give it up as readily as your DD. I think it is rather unusual that your DD was on board with your decision in this case.

[LibraryLover]

Not every 15 yo who worked hard enough to be invited to do competitive gymnastics would give it up as readily as your DD. I think it is rather unusual that your DD was on board with your decision in this case.

 

True. My dd is doing a summer intensive that I would not have chosen- for a variety of reasons. But it's highly competitive, and she wants the greater challenge.

 

As for the money.   I knew there would be $$ involved when she started. My dh said, "It's cheaper than showing horses", so we said OK.  And it is cheaper than riding.   But that's all I got there. Maybe we are crazy, but what to do?

 

10,000 hours and all.

[FarmingMomma]

NEprairiemom, I could be wrong, but I'm going to take a guess that you and I are in the same neck of the woods, namely, the western Nebraska Panhandle.  If this is the case, I can see where you are coming from...parents around here are seriously OBSESSED with sports.  Starting in about 2nd grade now, you are expected to haul your kid to multiple practices a week, and travel hours on weekends for games.  My daughter played basketball for a couple of years when she was in public school, but it was miserable.  Small school, so the coach's kids played all the time.  Practices were late, as in by the time we got home it was past my kids' bedtimes.  We moved away for awhile, started homeschooling, moved back to the same place, and everyone expected me to stick my kid back into basketball.  I explained to an acquaintance that 1) while my DD likes basketball, most of the girls on her team were snotty and mean, so my daughter didn't enjoy playing bb with THEM, and 2)  starting in 5th grade they start going to games even further away, requiring overnight trips.  I have milk cows that have to be milked morning and night, poultry that needs cared for, and my daughter has 4-H steers that need fed and watered...we can't do overnight trips (and don't want to!).  I've actually had people suggest directly or indirectly that ELEMENTARY school basketball is more important than farm animals that FEED US.  ugh.  I get that some people thrive on sports, but in this area it is bordering on or crossing over into what I would describe as consuming people's every moment outside of work.  I could care less what other's do, but I get really tired of the comments and dirty looks because we choose not to put our kids in sports at this time.  I'm especially tired of the "well your kids will get fat and lazy" comments.  Because apparently everyone was fat and lazy before basketball :glare:

[Incognito]

This doesn't apply at all to many denominations. I have very religious friends whose 3 kids play travel soccer. It's no problem at all for them to google the daily mass times in the place they're playing and go to church. Catholicism is probably on the extreme end of this "attend any location" trend, but other denominations welcome visitors. Sports only get in the way of attending the ancillary activities that are associated with church, but not, imho, essential. Things life youth group and pot lucks and bunco night aren't really central to chuch life are they? I mean, if someone said they were an introvert and the thought of going to the ladies night made them cringe, we'd probably come to a consensus that they should ditch it.

 

Right after I hit enter I thought - ah, I should make an amendment for Catholics, but then I didn't because I thought - well, I am not Catholic, so maybe my understanding of their attendance and structure is incorrect.  Guess it wasn't and I should have amended.  FWIW,  you are correct, the ancillary activities aren't essential to faith.  They are about building a community of relationships.  I think that from my outside understanding of Catholicism the large structure of the Catholic church itself provides a known foundation for the type of community you build that other smaller denominations just don't have.  

 

And as far as attending at a different church - one could, but the problem/question isn't really about the people who choose to do that.  It's about the people who choose to do activities in lieu of communal worship/fellowship.  

[Guest submarines]

Live and learn. I've never encountered the attitude that competitive sports are looked down upon. Here the attitude toward youth athletes is of pride and support.

 

Some children are generalists, some are specialists. As long as they can choose their activities and level of involvement, it is enriching to them and is valuable for them. I have a specialist, and I have a generalist, and I have one in between. As a parent, I support my children's passions to the best of my ability.

[texasmama]

Well, I can't tell from reading the first page and a half of this thread if our family is in the "acceptable" or "unacceptable" category regarding sports.  lol

 

We are a basketball family.  Both of our sons play on a competitive homeschool middle school basketball team.  We never practice or play on Sundays or Wednesdays.  All of the families are Christian, but some observe Sabbath on Saturday rather than Sunday.  The boys practice or play games two hours a day, three days a week.  Last year it was four days a week.  We do at least two several day tournaments a year, one about 45 minutes away and one about an hour and a half away.  My dh coaches.  My boys love it.  They have made good friends on the team.  They have these boys over to play and spend the night sometimes.  Dh and I have made friends with the parents. 

 

Money spent...well, since dh coaches (for no cost to the organization), our family costs are actually minimal.  The organization does a fundraiser to cover fees and such.  The cost for each player per family is $200 per season.  There are "incidental" costs such as gas to and from practice and games, entry fees for family members to games not at our home gym and food/drinks while away.  The organization is paying for the coaches and families to stay for two nights at a hotel for the state tournament.

 

Basketball takes a lot of time in our family.  With dh coaching, there is time outside the practices and games that he spends on the team/strategies/communicating with families.  It is a very small organization and is run like a small co op.  One lady does the scheduling, two people are in charge of the bank account, one mom washes uniforms and brings them to games, and I run the concession stand (and am in charge of buying, storing and bringing all concessions to home games).  It is very time consuming.

 

I can't explain how important it is to my boys.  The experiences are invaluable.  They get a good, physical workout, team playing experience, experience navigating relationships with other puberty-laden boys, the joys of winning and losing, friends, and the feeling of being part of something larger than themselves.  We are small but mighty.  Everyone is needed.  No one is expendable. 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I will breathe a sigh of relief when this season is over.  We are almost there!  It is five frenzied months.  But it has been a formative experience for my boys.  They do NOT have amazing skills and talents.  They are not athletic scholarship-bound with this.  Everyone needs a tribe.  This is their tribe.

 

It is easy to judge what you have not seen from the inside and don't understand.

[LibraryLover]

Hey. As long as I am here, ;),  I'd like to say that we are not looking for ballet scholarships. LOL  Not our goal.  (They don't much exist outside of SI scholarships.) There were also few drumming scholarships. ;)  

 

But the memories. The joy. It's good.

 

I've read the thread, and while my kids have passions, we did not have to choose a travel team (or whatnot) at 8. Our dd didn't even start dancing until she was 10.  I am coming from the place where we follow the interests of our children, while exposing them to a variety of fun. And we know we are very, very lucky that we can manage (mostly lol)  the cost.

 

 

[chiguirre]

And as far as attending at a different church - one could, but the problem/question isn't really about the people who choose to do that.  It's about the people who choose to do activities in lieu of communal worship/fellowship.  

I'd guess those people aren't really religious. Maybe sports is just a convenient excuse to ditch something that they didn't enjoy but felt pressured into doing. People make different choices because they have different priorities.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

So what effect does 20 plus hours a week have on children, or better what effects can still be measured as adults. For example if the take kids who are similiar (money, family, area) and put them in two groups, one who spent lots of time on an activity and the other group who spent little time on an organized activity.

 

When you test them as adults is there a difference in physical fitness, creativity, happiness, health, income, ...

 

 

I swam competitively through college.  In high school and college, that meant twice a day practices and many weekend swim meets, so at least 20 hours a week.  After graduation, in the Army and then with small children, I did very little exercise.  Nobody did any testing, but I can tell you that 20 years later, I was still stronger than most of my peers (based on things I could do or lift that they couldn't).  

 

 

[Lolly]

I swam competitively through college.  In high school and college, that meant twice a day practices and many weekend swim meets, so at least 20 hours a week.  After graduation, in the Army and then with small children, I did very little exercise.  Nobody did any testing, but I can tell you that 20 years later, I was still stronger than most of my peers (based on things I could do or lift that they couldn't).  

 

I was also an athlete. Gymnastics for 16 years. No real testing, but I also haven't done a whole lot lately. I can still out perform most of my peers at this time (well over 20 uears later) despite my weight. My body simply seems to remember how to do things.I did sort of have testing fairly recently when we switched my dd's gym membership to me. The poor boy was a bit flummoxed that the fat old lady was able to do so well. My health is excellent. My blood pressure/pulse tends to run lower than average still.The pesky things like my ankle and knees that plagued me during college and made me stop exercising intensely are better than they were then. (I did stop using them finally...) My experience led me to allow my dc to follow a sport with the same passion, but not in a gym. Granted, things are much better today, but gymnastics was very hard on the body/joints. I am old enough that the old fold out mats were used in most gyms and a wrestling mat was considered state of the art. My girls all took gymnastics, but when it came time to join team or go home, we started going to the pool more often.

[fdrinca]

A year ago I would have agreed with you, then our son, then in a recreational gymnastics class, took a make-up class with the coach of the boys' team. It turns out that my son's a great gymnast. Moreover, my son cannot get enough gymnastics. It's good for him, although not good for our bank account.

 

The nature of his sport finds us travelling several hours for meets. Thankfully, they're in cool parts of our state, and there only are five of them Still, it's very stressful for our little ones, and we're still discerning how best to proceed. 

 

I do not think, however, I would be willing to make the same sacrifices for a more common sport. I certainly wouldn't travel hours and hours several times a month.

 

(I say this now. Just wait until DD1 becomes a soccer girl.)

[redsquirrel]

I think the OP is frustrated that the community she had isn't functioning the way it once did.

 

FWIW, I agree that it isn't really my job to police what other people do with their time or money, but in a church it actually is the church's job to hold one another accountable to prioritizing faith in God and corporate worship.  So, in a way, I'd venture to say that the OP is trying to reconcile the conflicting feelings of having no power in watching the systems that have been in place in the church erode, and no new system in place to safeguard what may possibly be being lost/disappearing in regards to corporate worship and the sense of community that comes from the regular meeting together of the church.

 

I have a hard time believing that other people who have been brought up within the church in North America haven't seen this phenomenon and felt at least some sense of loss over it.  

 

In the OP's particular area, the thing that seems to be the thing which is getting in the way of the continuation of the old Sunday and youth night rituals is sports.  So sports are the scapegoat.  I'd say that underneath it all is a restructuring of priorities as families and as a society as a whole, and that in different localities and families the cause of change may be different, but there is a shift in how we organize our lives that the OP seems to dislike and is trying to draw our attention to. 

 

FWIW, I will interject for the OP (if you happen to pop on to read) that the existence of youth night itself was/is a societal choice that is worth considering the merit of - it builds community, but I would like to posit the idea that perhaps it doesn't build the kind of community that would ideally reflect what Christ is supposed to be like, and that perhaps even something like a family being part of a sport and spending that time individually or as a family in an intentional way would be more Christ-like and affirming of Christian values than youth night.

 

Right there is, for me, the heart of the issue.

 

I am not a christian,  We attend our local UU church.  When we started at this church, before I was married and had kids, so 20 years ago, there were 2 FULL services and over 200 kids in the religious education program.  Now, we are down to 1 thinly attended service and less than 30 kids at RE.  DH and I stand out b/c we among the very small handful of 'young' families in the church...and I keep reminding the other folks that I ain't young any more. The vast majority of people I see every week are in their late 60s at the youngest. I have been in the church's 'women's meeting' for years and I am younger than some of the children of the other women who attend. I am almost 50. I am the last new member to join the women's meeting and when I joined I only had 1 kid. My youngest is now 10.

 

My friend, who attends the same church, is also a professional musician and she often gets hired to play organ or piano at area churches for particular events. She has informed me that our church actually has MORE kids than any of the others she attends.

 

It is clear to me that in 20 years, my church that is about to have its 200th birthday, is going to empty. There is just no way it can survive at this rate.

 

Now, I  make jokes about it b/c it has been such a stark change in what feels like the blink of an eye, but it is a generational change. I keep blaming soccer. I have so  many friends who say they have always wanted to bring their kids to our church but soccer gets in the way. I had never heard of a sport that has practice on Sundays, but around here, soccer does.

 

It isn't soccer though. It's that church is optional. It isn't considered something that 'must' be done or one's social standing will be hurt. It is a nice extra, but something not necessary, and when time is short it is one of the first things to get tossed. 

 

I can only speak for my area and around here I think that the perception that church is only for conservative Christians has really hurt church attendance. When people find out that I attend church I have to practically assure them that I accept the science on evolution and climate change. I get a lot of people telling me they left church as young adults b/c they just didn't feel welcome or comfortable, that they were being asked to deny what they know of the world every time they stepped into a church and they just stopped going as soon as they could. Or they hadn't ever felt attached to begin with.. religiously ambivalent parents who bring the kids every now and then or out of a sense of duty tend to have kids who find it easier to just let the whole thing drop. I can't say as I blame them.

 

To the OP, I am not really sure what is going on. I am guessing that your church is suffering and what you see taking its place is sports or other activities that take up lots of time.  Well, as the mother of two ballet dancers things like that do take up time. And I am not above getting out of a church meeting by blaming ballet, lol. But, I make the time for things that are important to me and bring us closer as a family. Sometimes that is church and sometimes it is not.

[Aelwydd]

We spend a lot of money and invest a huge amount of time so our kids can play travel hockey because we all love it. Why is that hard to understand, and why do you think you get to judge whether these families spend real time together?

 

Yes. Also, I would rather spend my Sunday at a hockey game than most other options.  My parents did the "church activities" first thing, and I spent every Sunday morning and evening at church, along with Wednesday, at church.  My parents spent a lot of money through the years on church clothes, gas, eating out, church activities, etc.  I'd rather spend it on sports or other activities for my ds.

[Aelwydd]

Here is what I wonder, as a dedicated Sunday school teacher: what would it take for people to really find value in their time at church? Throughout this thread, I am not getting a sense of loss from those who have had to quit church for the sake of sports. So, part of the problem must be in church being considered irrelevant or unimportant. Where have the churches gone wrong?

 

 

I felt some loss when I left Christianity, and by extension, church, because sometimes I miss the ritual and the community.  However, I don't really feel any regret for no longer having to sacrifice one day out of my weekend, every week, to church. 

 

I do feel a little sad about all the time I wasted in church growing up.  Church "went wrong" in that it could never prove to me its value, or that it was giving me anything back for all that it demanded.  I guess you could say I got tired of the "one-sided" relationship, in that I couldn't tell the difference between an invisible god and a non-existent one. Consequently, church just seemed more and more like an elaborate form of "play pretend." 

 

Given that, why wouldn't I spend that time watching my ds do something he loves? (From what I can tell from many of my fellow Gen Xers, I'm not alone in my perspective.)

[Lisbeth]

It's fine if it's other people's idea of a good time. It's just not mine.

 

Really, I'd rather have my kids spending that time on volunteering. Or, for the younger ones, just having free time.

 

It's OK. Nobody is trying to take away people's rights to spend as much time on sports as they like. I live in a sports mad country; I realise it's very important to a lot of people.

 

It's just not vaguely important to me.

 

I'm sorry if people find that offensive.

I am not at all offended by what you wrote, but I will say my focus is different. I don't, largely, pick our activities based on what I would be annoyed doing or not, or what I find particularly important. I ask the kids, and if I can objectively see their point of view, I try to make it happen. I try to follow their interests. Within reason. ;)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am not at all offended by what you wrote, but I will say my focus is different. I don't, largely, pick our activities based on what I would be annoyed doing or not, or what I find particularly important. I ask the kids, and if I can objectively see their point of view, I try to make it happen. I try to follow their interests. Within reason. ;)

 

I do.  LOL  Being dead honest here.  I would not pick baseball because I think baseball is extremely boring and having to go to several baseball games would in fact probably kill me.

[Lisbeth]

I have to confess that we do both. As Mormons, Sunday involves 3 hours of Church. Monday nights are Family Home Evening, supposed to be spent at home with family, doing an activity together. Wednesday nights are Activity night at the Church ...scouts, young women group, and a group for younger girls. Before school for an hour M-F, for all all 4 high school years, the kids meet for scripture study. Then there is visit teaching and Relief society for the women, campouts, etc. I know about heavy Church involvement. We still do multiple sports/dance/art/nature activities and free time. We do very little screen time. My kids read a lot too. They seem to be thriving. :)

[Lisbeth]

I do. LOL Being dead honest here. I would not pick baseball because I think baseball is extremely boring and having to go to several baseball games would in fact probably kill me.

I felt that way about track. We tried it because my oldest was interested. I was soooo bored. She ended up really disliking it, and I was very glad...in my head, quietly. lol.

My husband said no to football because of head injury potential, but my sons laughed and said they had no interest anyway. We do say no for other reasons sometimes. :)

[FaithManor]

I understand what many are saying about the relevance of church to this generation's parents. We are pretty regular church goers, but the difference for us is that we like our sense of community, but we don't bank our relationship with God on our relationship to other people in the church, and that's because if we did, we'd have been gone long ago. The ultra conservative, legalistic, judgmental attitude that tends to prevail in American churches would be a no go. The "you must believe in a literal six day creation or you are going to hell" mentality is a no go. The "your clothes must conform to a certain image or you will be reviled" is a no go. On and on and on....

 

People are rejecting that. If God is not bigger than clothing and music choices, or sound science, or cannot survive a rated PG-13 movie, then God becomes irrelevant. On top of which, Aelwydd hit the nose on the head, there is a breaking point between what the church demands as an institution and what it gives. We are very close to leaving our church, and it's not soccer, or rocket team, or 4-H, or skiing, or whatever that is the cause of this. It is the constant demand for more and more time, and grueling service, and NOTHING in return, the shrinking relationship, the shrinking care for the attenders, the lack of concern whatsoever for those in service who are getting burned out, and this is a problem we are hearing about all across America.

 

Frankly, we have no intention of abandoning our beliefs in Christ. But, we also are no longer under any illusion that attending church and serving in all of the programs with pressure to serve in more is an enhancement AT ALL to our personal growth or knowledge of the creator. We'll find a place where we are comfortable with the worship service, enjoy the prayers, engage in the Lord's Supper, and are otherwise entirely removed from the "life" of the church refusing to ever again be enslaved to unreasonable demands.

 

Churches really don't need more "programming". What they need is to become genuine, and care. They need to stop running like businesses that require ever increasing "profit"/growth and actually care about the people already in their midst.

 

That's my rant about why church attendance is becoming irrelevant to many people.

 

But, the greater issue is simply that children have interests and passions they want to pursue and in a society that no longer has a homogenous religious "identity" and represents more of a melting pot, certain days of the week will no longer be untouchable in terms of these activities. And ultimately, for Christians, since Jesus says ,"Judge not, lest ye be judged" it's important to not get disgruntled with those that make different choices from you. It won't help anything. It violates the golden rule, and it most certainly isn't going to impress anyone with "church" if that is how church members behave. It is counter productive to any message the church wants to convey.

 

 

[plansrme]

I do.  LOL  Being dead honest here.  I would not pick baseball because I think baseball is extremely boring and having to go to several baseball games would in fact probably kill me.

 

I used to think this also.  I have always HATED baseball.  But it was my husband's thing when he was a kid, and then our son started playing, and then we got to be friends with an assistant coach of a college team up the road.  Next thing you know, I am streaming their conference championship online (while I drive, no less!  one of my kids was doing it for me and updating) and recognizing my favorite players when we're on campus.  I still am not a fan of MLB so much, but college baseball and, of course, my own kid's games, well--don't tell anyone, but I'm now definitely a fan.  MLB is still too perfect and, thus, boring, but college and 11U travel baseball?  Decidedly not perfect, and lots of fun.

[Haiku]

All I remember from the season my son played baseball was that for half the games, the temperature was about 113 degrees and my dd would hide under the bleachers, seeking some relief from the scorching sun, and the other half of the games were canceled due to rain. It was truly miserable. I told my son he could play baseball again when he was old enough to be dropped off. Luckily he started playing hockey that fall and never looked back. :D

[skimomma]

My dd's sport requires spectators to stand in extremely uncomfortable conditions for hours at a time.  It's a good thing we love her......

 

That said, I did shamelessly steer dd away from dance and ice skating because *I* could not handle the drama...mostly involving the parents and organizers.  She was not particularly in love with either, thank goodness.  She tried each out for a bit, had a good time, and was cool with moving on.

 

I'll take being physically uncomfortable over drama any day.

[Mommy22alyns]

All I remember from the season my son played baseball was that for half the games, the temperature was about 113 degrees and my dd would hide under the bleachers, seeking some relief from the scorching sun, and the other half of the games were canceled due to rain. It was truly miserable. I told my son he could play baseball again when he was old enough to be dropped off. Luckily he started playing hockey that fall and never looked back. :D

 

 

LOL!  I love baseball, and when Rebecca was about 4, I put her on a little t-ball team.  She put that glove on, squatted down, and played in the dirt.  Meanwhile, I had a 2 year old Sylvia, scorching heat or freezing cold, uncomfortable metal bleachers, and unfriendly parents.  We ended up quitting after her second season because I hated it!  Give me a nice, climate-controlled sport any day!

[LibraryLover]

X-country was the worst. Watching paint dry. Good for catching up on your reading, however.

[DragonFaerie]

A bit of a varied post here.

 

On the sports topic:

DS played baseball when he was younger, and we were ALL bored, including DS.  He stood around in the outfield and eventually resorted to squatting down pulling at the grass and collecting pebbles.  Then he got hit in the stomach once at bat, and that was the end of that.  I wasn't sad to see his baseball days end.  Same thing with track, loooong and boooring.

 

 

On the church topic:

It seems to me that a person's relationship with God shouldn't be dependent on whether or not their butt is in a pew at a prescribed day or time.

[itsheresomewhere]

X-country was the worst. Watching paint dry. Good for catching up on your reading, however.

I feel that way watching tennis :leaving: .   DD loves it but I swear that is the longest hour.  

[Luanne]

I understand the people who say that church takes up a lot of time as well ... but it isn't that way around here so much anymore.  Pretty much all churches only have services on Sunday mornings which is all right.  For those of you who say that churches should change their meeting times to adjust to the sports, what day or time is actually going to work?  There is no way you could accommodate ALL the sports and ALL the youth going to that church.  I guarantee that there isn't a day or a time that someone doesn't already have some sport event to go to (or practice or whatever).  I'm guessing the real truth is, you who say that, have no interest in church and think it is a waste of time for people to even go to church.

[albeto.]

 I'm guessing the real truth is, you who say that, have no interest in church and think it is a waste of time for people to even go to church.

 

I'm willing to guess church as a product/service is becoming increasingly irrelevant to people. If it weren't sports, it would be hobbies, or recreation, or something else.

 

This thread has changed my mind about it, though. I'm not so sure I would post the same comment I did way back when, had I waited until now to reply. What an interesting topic!

 

:)

 

 

[Haiku]

I'm guessing the real truth is, you who say that, have no interest in church and think it is a waste of time for people to even go to church.

 

I'm not Christian, so I don't attend church, but I am religious, and I do have a religious center I belong to. They have practice one morning a week. During hockey season, this does not work for us. We can't make it. The kids have games. I would actually love to go to the practice, and if they had several times I could choose from, I would pick one and go. Alas, they do not, so I miss a large percentage of the time. It's not for lack of interest.

[myfunnybunch]

Just a general musing, triggered by the OP's description of the Facebook feed complaints (and a bit of the teens relating their experience)....

 

Before a show, my Facebook feed is full of children's theater folk posting "tired/so much to do/BUSY!/late nights/up late for homework/Help, costumes are crazy!" and more. And so are real life conversations. It's just blowing off steam, which is a natural human way to communicate, but if that's the only bit people see or pay attention to then they might wonder why in heaven's name would we want to do this to ourselves and our kids.

 

A week later the same folks are posting, "Amazing/so much fun/proud of this group/fabulous volunteers/going to miss this great cast and crew/fantastic show/can't wait for the next one." Both are accurate reflections of how people feel about the show, but the "amazing" tends to win out in the long run because the activity brings connection and teamwork and friendship to our families and our community. (FWIW, our church had found ways to promote these kinds of connections also, by focusing on relationship and community involvement. We attend regularly and feel a genuine sense of involvement there also.)

 

My friend likened doing a show to giving birth, lol. During the busiest part, you wonder if you are going to make it, and can't wait for it to be over, but seeing the show come to fruition is amazing and worth every second of the busy. From the outside, especially if it confirms the beliefs and judgments one already holds, it is easy to notice the complaints and believe that those represent the entirety or the major part of the families' experience, whether it's theater or sports or music or debate or academic competition or.....

 

Bottom line is that people wouldn't be choosing those activities if they didn't fill some kind of need. I suspect that if people are consistently choosing the activities over church, then the activities are meeting those needs differently than the church is meeting them. I don't think it's a reflection on their spirituality, but possibly on the sense of connection and community that's being built.

 

Cat

 

ETA: I am laughing a little reading some of the most recent posts. I steered my ds away from ice skating because I HATE being cold. Although I am not sure the sweaty humid waiting room at the ballet studio is much better.

[Mommy22alyns]

Building on what Cat said about FB venting... it's like when homeschoolers vent. We sure don't want anyone saying, "Just put your kids in school!" We're allowed to have a less than perfect day, and so are sports/theater/whatever parents.