help me learn- Transgender Teens (please, no bashing)

[Tohru]

I don't want this to be a debate and I don't want to hear any negative opinions about this.  I just want to learn a little more about transgender issues because it seems more and more prevalent.  The argument I keep hearing is "feeling being trapped in the wrong body", however there are lots of people that aren't transgender that also feel this way very deeply: such as people desiring to be amputees, people with an extreme sense of being the wrong race, having a different body, etc.

 

Is it a physical medical condition, something that was suppose to happen during pregnancy but didn't, a nuerological condition that develops as the brain grows, a mental or emotional thing, or something else entirely?

 

Thank you in advance for being kind with your response. 

 

 

[Joanne]

 

I don't want this to be a debate and I don't want to hear any negative opinions about this.  I just want to learn a little more about transgender issues because it seems more and more prevalent.  The argument I keep hearing is "feeling being trapped in the wrong body", however there are lots of people that aren't transgender that also feel this way very deeply: such as people desiring to be amputees, people with an extreme sense of being the wrong race, having a different body, etc.

 

Is it a physical medical condition, something that was suppose to happen during pregnancy but didn't, a nuerological condition that develops as the brain grows, a mental or emotional thing, or something else entirely?

 

Thank you in advance for being kind with your response. 

 

 

 

 

It is an umbrella term, and has evolving understanding. You can learn much if you google. Here is one link:

 

The APA on trans

ETA: The feeling of being in the wrong body is not a transferrable feeling in the other examples you've given. To compare discounts all of them. Gender identity is a very complex issue medically, culturally, and psychologically.

 

[Jasperstone]

I have even heard of people thinking that they are born in the wrong species! Like they should have been born a wolf, cat etc...

 

And they dress up and act out their animal of choice.

[hornblower]

http://www.pflagcanada.ca/en/links-e.php?audience=transgender

[Tanaqui]

There is some evidence that many transgender individuals were exposed to large amounts of the "wrong" hormone while in utero. Additionally, there is also evidence that transgender individuals may be more likely to exhibit mosaicism or chimeraism than cisgender individuals, which in some cases means they have some cells in their body xx and others xy. (Cisgender means "normal", but without the judgmental overtones of that word.)

 

However, to my knowledge, that evidence is not yet conclusive. There is so much we simply don't know yet.

 

You should be aware that some individuals do not feel like their bodies are the "wrong" gender, but that they are both genders, or neither, or that the gender binary doesn't do a good job of describing them.

 

"I have even heard of people thinking that they are born in the wrong species! Like they should have been born a wolf, cat etc...

And they dress up and act out their animal of choice."

 

 

There aren't really very many otherkin and furries out there. They just get a disproportionate amount of press. Live and let live is what I say.

[LucyStoner]

Two posts in and boom with the likening transgendered people with people who want to be other species. Color me unsurprised.

 

My brother is transgendered. Being able to transition was critically important to him and he's a happier person for it. His husband and children certainly need him (he transitioned before he met his husband). There were clear indicators that he was transgendered long before he opted to transition. It challenged a lot of my notions of gender and relationships but it was truly the best, if not the only, possible outcome for him.

 

I am not sure what the point is of mentioning people who want to be amputees or cats alongside trans issues. It's not the same thing.

[Alessandra]

Ravin started a thread, 'Ask a ....' I can't seem to locate the thread, but there was a lot of info. You could pm Ravin.

[Alessandra]

Double post

[Guest]

This is such a useful thread to me, as I am working on a research paper about transgender, specifically in young people. I have been communicating with a board member as part of my research, but more info from authoritative sources would be great.

[albeto.]

It might help to understand gender not as a binary reality, but an entire spectrum.

 

The Trevor Project ("leading national organization providing crisis intervention and suicide prevention services to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning [LGBTQ] young people ages 13-24") offers this graphic:

 

 

 

The conventional category (girl/boy) no longer suffices simply because we know more today than ever before. I wouldn't say these issues are more prevalent (as if they're more popular or whatever), but likely more visible in society. The first brave souls who refused to hide began paving the way for more people to be able to live comfortably in their own skin. 

 

 

ETA: They also endorse this graphic to help illustrate:

 

[Χά�ων]

This is such a useful thread to me, as I am working on a research paper about transgender, specifically in young people. I have been communicating with a board member as part of my research, but more info from authoritative sources would be great.

Would you be open to sharing the paper?

[Halftime Hope]

Two posts in and boom with the likening transgendered people with people who want to be other species. Color me unsurprised.

 

My brother is transgendered. Being able to transition was critically important to him and he's a happier person for it. His husband and children certainly need him (he transitioned before he met his husband). There were clear indicators that he was transgendered long before he opted to transition. It challenged a lot of my notions of gender and relationships but it was truly the best, if not the only, possible outcome for him.

 

I am not sure what the point is of mentioning people who want to be amputees or cats alongside trans issues. It's not the same thing.

 

Lucy, this question is an honestly, sincerely asked one--I'm not trying to be offensive or anything.  Why is there anything wrong with "likening" as in your first sentence? 

 

When I read thethird post in, I understood it not so much as "likening" (comparing?) as it was recognizing and listing a variety people who in one way or another did not feel comfortable in the bodily package they inhabit, not as any kind of  derogatory statement:  "lump someone who is an accepted category of different" in with "other wierdoes who are in non-acceptable categories."

 

Since there are people who truly feel wrongly gendered, why not give just as much acceptance to someone who feels wrongly specied, or wrongly formed?  (I'm totally new to thinking about the topic--I had never heard of people feeling like they needed to be amputees.)  Why wouldn't their felt need be just as real as someone who fell into the more common category of wrong-gender that needed to be corrected? 

 

Again, I'm asking to truly try and understand.  There is clearly some kind of boundary that has been crossed in your thinking.  Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Guest]

Would you be open to sharing the paper?

Would you like it personally, or would you want me to post it or link it somehow? It is due Oct 1st.

[Χά�ων]

Would you like it personally, or would you want me to post it or link it somehow? It is due Oct 1st.

However. You can PM me if you would prefer. I appreciate your willingness to share. :)

[Tanaqui]

Lucy, this question is an honestly, sincerely asked one--I'm not trying to be offensive or anything.  Why is there anything wrong with "likening" as in your first sentence?

 

 

You know how whenever you read an article about gay marriage, and then go to the comments (because you're a masochist, I suppose), there's always this one dude shouting how he's sick of them "cramming it down our throats" (a loaded phrase if I ever saw one!) and how now, of course, we'll all ask for the right to marry our children, our sisters, our dogs, or our toasters.

 

To which I say a. children aren't consenting adults, b. there are other reasons to be against incest, c. dogs aren't consenting adults, and d. what the heck is wrong with marrying a toaster?

 

But of course, they don't say these things because they actually are concerned. They say them because they want to equate homosexuality to all sorts of things they figure are gross or ridiculous. And then they hide it with "But I was just saying!" or "I'm just asking questions!" like we don't all know what they're doing.

 

Of course, some people are sincerely asking questions. It can just be super hard to tell after a while.

 

So, when you equate transgender to people with body dysphorias or furries, it can look like you're doing the same thing as the "cramming it down our throats!" guys.

[EndOfOrdinary]

One of the things I did as a freshman to start a Gay Straight Alliance at our high school.  The whole goal was to break the either/or dichotomy of so many sexual issues.  There is a very wide spread between completely gay and completely straight.  Most all people fall somewhere along that continuum.  The same is true for gender.  Trans individuals are people who do not fall into the either/or dichotomy of gender.

 

Growing up I was incredibly angry at being born female.  I despised myself.  It was not because I was a transgendered individual, more that my family was very screwed up.  However, I still do not really enjoy presenting myself in a very feminine way.  It has honestly been in the last five years that I have come to terms with it.  Before that, I always presented either very androgynous or as male.  In the same way, I do not self identify as straight nor do I self identify as gay.  It is just far too limiting.

 

I think the surge in people willing to express their transgendered tendencies or their openly switching of gender is because as a society their is a larger amount of information now pushing to abolish our incredibly limited scope of what is "acceptable."  At least in some forms of society.  My husband grew up in conservative rural South.  I made it very clear that when we talked about my son having a partner as he grew older, we needed to be gender open.  We often say, "when you decide to date a boy or girl when you are older..."  My son loves sparkly things, long hair, nail polish, dancing, and lots of color.  Dh gets to be okay with it.  My father had to be okay with it.  It was a very hard line for me.  It is something Dh is used to now, but it really made him uncomfortable at first.  It still makes Dh's family uncomfortable and my father thinks it is "encouraging things."  But none of my son's friends care.  Most of the boys would love it if their parents would let them paint stuff with sparkly nail polish!  Times are changing.

[Jenny in Florida]

Personally, I don't feel a need to understand "why," in part because it seems to imply there is something "wrong" with these individuals that can be "fixed." 

 

I mean, I find it sort of interesting, but the why of it isn't keeping me awake nights.

 

What does cause me concern sometimes is worry for the gender-nonconforming teen I know and love. I worry about that kid's well-being. I worry about the negativity that wonderful, caring, funny, sweet teen encounters out in the world sometimes. I worry about whether his (since that's the pronoun he prefers these days) parents will get on board and support their child in figuring out who he is and how to be the best version of that person that he can be and feel loved and accepted during that process.

 

As others have said, identity and sexuality and attraction are not binary.

[Truscifi]

One of the things I did as a freshman to start a Gay Straight Alliance at our high school.  The whole goal was to break the either/or dichotomy of so many sexual issues.  There is a very wide spread between completely gay and completely straight.  Most all people fall somewhere along that continuum.  The same is true for gender.  Trans individuals are people who do not fall into the either/or dichotomy of gender.

 

Growing up I was incredibly angry at being born female.  I despised myself.  It was not because I was a transgendered individual, more that my family was very screwed up.  However, I still do not really enjoy presenting myself in a very feminine way.  It has honestly been in the last five years that I have come to terms with it.  Before that, I always presented either very androgynous or as male.  In the same way, I do not self identify as straight nor do I self identify as gay.  It is just far too limiting.

 

I think the surge in people willing to express their transgendered tendencies or their openly switching of gender is because as a society their is a larger amount of information now pushing to abolish our incredibly limited scope of what is "acceptable."  At least in some forms of society.  My husband grew up in conservative rural South.  I made it very clear that when we talked about my son having a partner as he grew older, we needed to be gender open.  We often say, "when you decide to date a boy or girl when you are older..."  My son loves sparkly things, long hair, nail polish, dancing, and lots of color.  Dh gets to be okay with it.  My father had to be okay with it.  It was a very hard line for me.  It is something Dh is used to now, but it really made him uncomfortable at first.  It still makes Dh's family uncomfortable and my father thinks it is "encouraging things."  But none of my son's friends care.  Most of the boys would love it if their parents would let them paint stuff with sparkly nail polish!  Times are changing.

 

Indeed. My very comfortably male son loves sparkly nail polish. He has gotten the occasional "that's for girls" but he doesn't care and none of his friends do either.

[Joanne]

Personally, I don't feel a need to understand "why," in part because it seems to imply there is something "wrong" with these individuals that can be "fixed." 

 

I mean, I find it sort of interesting, but the why of it isn't keeping me awake nights.

 

What does cause me concern sometimes is worry for the gender-nonconforming teen I know and love. I worry about that kid's well-being. I worry about the negativity that wonderful, caring, funny, sweet teen encounters out in the world sometimes. I worry about whether his (since that's the pronoun he prefers these days) parents will get on board and support their child in figuring out who he is and how to be the best version of that person that he can be and feel loved and accepted during that process.

 

As others have said, identity and sexuality and attraction are not binary.

 

Like.

 

My worry for trans/inter teens is that people will invalidate, patronize, and otherwise discount them. I see it with teens who express bi-sexually, seek alternative spirituality, or express a political perspective different than the expectation in their cultural context. Adults (and I have *personally* been guilty of this) often tend to dismiss the teen as "experimenting" with either the indirect or sometimes explicit expectation that they will "grow up" and "grow out" of that "phase."

 

Sexual minority teens have SO much to deal with in a psycho-social context that they need as many stable, healthy, progressive adults they can find who allow them to *be.*

[Tammi K]

It is an umbrella term, and has evolving understanding. You can learn much if you google. Here is one link:

 

The APA on trans

ETA: The feeling of being in the wrong body is not a transferrable feeling in the other examples you've given. To compare discounts all of them. Gender identity is a very complex issue medically, culturally, and psychologically.

 

Joanne, Would you please explain what you mean by 'not a transferable feeling in the other examples'?

Thanks. 

 

[Ravin]

Joanne, Would you please explain what you mean by 'not a transferable feeling in the other examples'?

Thanks.

 

Jumping in to the deep end...

 

It is not normal for a human to be missing a limb or to think they are a rabbit/dog/whatever. It is normal for a human to have gender.

 

Human bodies have different sex characteristics which arise from complex developmental processes. Most of the time, they match up to the sex chromosomes, but not always. When they don't, a person has an intersex condition. The sexes also have different brain development, which lay down the foundation for the psychological traits we call "gender." Culturally, we then pile a bunch of expectations and Norms on top of those basic differences, to make up the full gender package.

 

Just as the gonads and genitals sometimes develop differently from the expectations for the standard sex chromosomes. Because brain and body developmental cues have different timing, in some people they can be wired one way and have parts of the body outside the brain come out the opposite way-- or, the brain comes out somewhere in between the two commonly expected genders.

 

Since we can't see the subtle mapping of people's brains, and brains and other body parts usually match up pretty well, it's reasonable to base our assumptions of what a new baby's gender is on what's between their legs. This works most of the time.

 

Except when it doesn't--then you get someone who is transgender.

 

It's maybe more like being an amputee than wanting to be one. The brain expects certain body parts and hormone balances, and when they don't occur, depression and poor self image result.

 

Puberty can hit especially hard, because that's when the wrong hormones flood the brain and body differences become more pronounced.

 

We can't remap brains. We can fix hormones and adjust bodies with surgery.

[kiwik]

People are just people and all different. To me sexuality is not that important. To other people it is everything.

[Guest]

I think it is a tricky line to walk.

 

Some teens do experiment. ... not as something to 'grow out of', but as part of figuring out who they are and where they hold.

 

I think it could be very limiting, and hard for the teen, if adults leapt to assuming their experiments were a permanent choice...

 

Someone close to me described her experiences a mixed gender boarding school and the range of types of experimenting - some girls (mostly) were exploring, or curious, or drawn to connections to individuals that didn't match their (eventual) realizations about their orientation, others were coming to a realization then, not experimenting at all, and others (often guys) were labeling their process as experimenting or fluid because naming their orientation was too big and scary a step.

 

I think any dismissive response is wrong. ...but I don't see acknowledging the possibility that it could be experimenting or a stage is okay... even positive... with the really essential sub-text that the adult in question doesn't have a stake in the results. ...that if where s/he is now is where s/he stays, that's great, if it is a 'stage' or 'phase' that's fine too.. if it is part of a process of discovery, also fabulous. ...and if things shift around and remain undefined long-term that's okay too... all of the above with the additional sub-text of 'If you're fine, I'm fine'...

 

I'm on day 5 of a migraine, and here because my online test doesn't unlock until tomorrow, and I'm too exhausted to leap up and head to a different task this second... I suspect what I wrote makes much less sense in print than it seemed to in my head...

This is part of my curiosity about how peer and adult/parental behavior shapes gender and orientation identity. I identify as a completely hetero, very feminine female. I have not ever experimented with sexual interaction with females. But I might have, if that had been assumed as a possibility, as End of Ordinary said up-thread. So, would that have made me feel more confused about my identity, or would that have been liberating? I just don't know. There was never any view in my FOO, or amongst my peers, that one choice I could make was sexual/love interaction with females exclusively, or in addition to males. I think some aspects of females are appealing, but I never considered it a possibility that I could act sexually upon that sense of appeal (and it is moot now).

 

I just am not certain if it benefits young people more for peers and adults to assume standard gender identity and hetero expression, or if it benefits them more to assume the full range of identity and orientation is all equally acceptable.

[Halftime Hope]

Ravin, first, thank you so much for your very detailed and helpful answer. 

 

Secondly, I bolded the part that is still bothering me.  Who gets to define normal?  On this very board, posters have made it clear that historical "societal norms" are no longer valid, and the follow up implication is that those who disagree are not progressive, are unkind or prejudiced, since "we" recognize now that normal is a much larger spectrum. 

 

In addition, those who hold to traditional moral/religious norms are told by a large subset of society that the traditional moral/religious norms are now equally invalid, and that it is good for individuals and for society as a whole that we are recognizing the validity and worth of many more forms of being.  

 

Ravin, this is very similar (and I'm sure in some ways different) from folks in parts of deaf culture who consider the hearing world abnormal.  They would be really hacked off if you/we dismissed their thoughts and beliefs, their normal, with the justification that "hearing" is normal for humans, even though capacity to hear is the default. 

 

So I ask again, why is it not more admirable to consider valid ALL those who feel that their bodies should be somehow other than what they are.  Yes, I know they are not in the exact same category as those who are differently gendered, but they are part of a larger category of humans who do not rest easily in their current bodily packaging.  Why wouldn't we want to extend the same consideration and validation to all?

 

Thank you again for your thoughtful response; it was helpful to understand the physiology portion of the puzzle.

 

 

 

 

Jumping in to the deep end...

It is not normal for a human to be an amputee or a rabbit/dog/whatever. It is normal for a human to have gender.

Human bodies have different sex characteristics which arise from complex developmental processes. Most of the time, they match up to the sex chromosomes, but not always. When they don't, a person has an intersex condition. The sexes also have different brain development, which lay down the foundation for the psychological traits we call "gender." Culturally, we then pile a bunch of expectations and Norms on top of those basic differences, to make up the full gender package.

Just as the gonads and genitals sometimes develop differently from the expectations for the standard sex chromosomes. Because brain and body developmental cues have different timing, in some people they can be wired one way and have parts of the body outside the brain come out the opposite way-- or, the brain comes out somewhere in between the two commonly expected genders.

Since we can't see the subtle mapping of people's brains, and brains and other body parts usually match up pretty well, it's reasonable to base our assumptions of what a new baby's gender is on what's between their legs. This works most of the time.

Except when it doesn't--then you get someone who is transgender.

It's maybe more like being an amputee than wanting to be one. The brain expects certain body parts and hormone balances, and when they don't occur, depression and poor self image result.

Puberty can hit especially hard, because that's when the wrong hormones flood the brain and body differences become more pronounced.

We can't remap brains. We can fix hormones and adjust bodies with surgery.

 

[Ravin]

This is part of my curiosity about how peer and adult/parental behavior shapes gender and orientation identity. I identify as a completely hetero, very feminine female. I have not ever experimented with sexual interaction with females. But I might have, if that had been assumed as a possibility, as End of Ordinary said up-thread. So, would that have made me feel more confused about my identity, or would that have been liberating? I just don't know. There was never any view in my FOO, or amongst my peers, that one choice I could make was sexual/love interaction with females exclusively, or in addition to males. I think some aspects of females are appealing, but I never considered it a possibility that I could act sexually upon that sense of appeal (and it is moot now).

 

I just am not certain if it benefits young people more for peers and adults to assume standard gender identity and hetero expression, or if it benefits them more to assume the full range of identity and orientation is all equally acceptable.

GLBT teens have the highest rates of suicide, depression, and homelessness. Transgender people in particular report that 40% attempt suicide at some point.

 

Family support goes a long, long way towards ameliorating these problems. Kids wind up on the street because parents kick them out, or live with constant fear of rejection and try to suppress their core identities as a survival tactic.

 

Parental support doesn't solve all the problems or eliminate all the barriers gender nonconforming and transgender teens face. Physical gender dysphoria needs professional help and support--which parents should help their children access, but too often they do just the opposite. And too often peers, schools, and churches throw up roadblocks and rejection--though peers are often more laid back about it among the millenials, it's not always so.

 

With family and appropriate professional support, depression, suicide, and the other high risk stuff resolves to no more likely than for any other teen.

[Joanne]

. Yes, I know they are not in the exact same category as those who are differently gendered, but they are part of a larger category of humans who do not rest easily in their current bodily packaging. Why wouldn't we want to extend the same consideration and validation to all?

 

.

Please understand: the lived experience of gender is not comparable to the examples you've given. Society/culture/people don't assign religious or moral elements to hearing impaired. There exists compassion and care.

 

In todays's Western culture, trans are the least understood and most bullied of all sexual minorities. I encourage you to stop making comparisons to groups whose bodies work differently than "the norm" as it confuses and even insults the issues related to each group.

[ChristyB in TN]

It might help to understand gender not as a binary reality, but an entire spectrum.

 

The Trevor Project ("leading national organization providing crisis intervention and suicide prevention services to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning [LGBTQ] young people ages 13-24") offers 

 

 

 

This was fascinating. Thank you.

[AMJ]

Would you like it personally, or would you want me to post it or link it somehow? It is due Oct 1st.

 

I recommend not sharing it until after you have turned it in and gotten your grade, and also checking with your prof and the school before sharing to make sure they don't have a problem with it.  I don't expect that they would, but with plagiarism issues or concerns about copyright you never can tell.  Do get your grade before sharing, so it is less likely anyone will suspect any part of your paper is stolen.

 

I'd be interested in seeing it, too, if you are able and willing to share when it's all done and graded!  Thank you for the offer.

 

[AMJ]

Indeed. My very comfortably male son loves sparkly nail polish. He has gotten the occasional "that's for girls" but he doesn't care and none of his friends do either.

 

He can have mine!  I'm a "girl" (of several decades) and I don't like nail polish.  Never have, never will.  Don't like make-up, either.  We should all get to choose for ourselves, shouldn't we?

[AMJ]

Jumping in to the deep end...

 

It is not normal for a human to be an amputee or a rabbit/dog/whatever. It is normal for a human to have gender.

 

Human bodies have different sex characteristics which arise from complex developmental processes. Most of the time, they match up to the sex chromosomes, but not always. When they don't, a person has an intersex condition. The sexes also have different brain development, which lay down the foundation for the psychological traits we call "gender." Culturally, we then pile a bunch of expectations and Norms on top of those basic differences, to make up the full gender package.

 

Just as the gonads and genitals sometimes develop differently from the expectations for the standard sex chromosomes. Because brain and body developmental cues have different timing, in some people they can be wired one way and have parts of the body outside the brain come out the opposite way-- or, the brain comes out somewhere in between the two commonly expected genders.

 

Since we can't see the subtle mapping of people's brains, and brains and other body parts usually match up pretty well, it's reasonable to base our assumptions of what a new baby's gender is on what's between their legs. This works most of the time.

 

Except when it doesn't--then you get someone who is transgender.

 

It's maybe more like being an amputee than wanting to be one. The brain expects certain body parts and hormone balances, and when they don't occur, depression and poor self image result.

 

Puberty can hit especially hard, because that's when the wrong hormones flood the brain and body differences become more pronounced.

 

We can't remap brains. We can fix hormones and adjust bodies with surgery.

 

Very helpful and thought-provoking. 

 

On the issue of those who feel they have extraneous body parts and "wrong species" people -- I wonder if some time in the future we will find that there is something in the timing of the development of the nerves and brain (in the extraneous body parts folk) or in the early body & brain development that also bring about these effects? 

 

 

 

[AMJ]

Personally, I don't feel a need to understand "why," in part because it seems to imply there is something "wrong" with these individuals that can be "fixed." 

 

I mean, I find it sort of interesting, but the why of it isn't keeping me awake nights.

 

What does cause me concern sometimes is worry for the gender-nonconforming teen I know and love. I worry about that kid's well-being. I worry about the negativity that wonderful, caring, funny, sweet teen encounters out in the world sometimes. I worry about whether his (since that's the pronoun he prefers these days) parents will get on board and support their child in figuring out who he is and how to be the best version of that person that he can be and feel loved and accepted during that process.

 

As others have said, identity and sexuality and attraction are not binary.

 

I find trying to understand helps me be more empathetic.  If I try to understand I have already accepted the difference.  People who use greater "understanding" to try to fix what they see as wrong aren't trying to understand the individual, they are instead only trying to understand how to change what they see as broken.  They haven't accepted the difference.

 

I was raised to consider anyone not strictly heterosexual as wrong, somehow flawed people (usually with a morality judgement thrown in), even scary.  In college I met and got to know people before ever finding out about their gender identities or sexual leanings.  In so doing I discovered that these people I had met who were different (from me) in this regard weren't scary at all (in fact, the scariest, crookedest people I knew were "straight" and militant about it).

 

If we understand HOW these differences (including simple heterosexual) can come to be often we see that there is a continuum where we thought there was dichotomy, there are more nuances, more poetry.  We as a society can find more ways to accept.  We can also find ways to help individuals learn to live with what they cannot change (like species), and safe ways to alter that which they strongly desire to in order to be (in the physical form) the person they feel they truly are.

 

And we can learn that this is yet another venue where we don't have to be judgmental.

[Ravin]

Very helpful and thought-provoking.

 

On the issue of those who feel they have extraneous body parts and "wrong species" people -- I wonder if some time in the future we will find that there is something in the timing of the development of the nerves and brain (in the extraneous body parts folk) or in the early body & brain development that also bring about these effects?

 

 

 

Maybe. But the thing is, when there is something actually wrong about one's body, whether through injury or birth defect, we generally fix it if we can, and only focus on coping with/adapting to it if it cannot be fixed.

 

A Brain gender/reproductive organ mismatch can be fixed, at least partially.

[Joanne]

Great related post from a Pastor:

 

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/09/17/if-i-have-gay-children-four-promises-from-a-christian-pastorparent/

[ocelotmom]

I think any dismissive response is wrong.  ...but I don't see acknowledging the possibility that it could be experimenting or a stage is okay... even positive... with the really essential sub-text that the adult in question doesn't have a stake in the results.  ...that if where s/he is now is where s/he stays, that's great, if it is a 'stage' or 'phase' that's fine too.. if it is part of a process of discovery, also fabulous.  ...and if things shift around and remain undefined long-term that's okay too...   all of the above with the additional sub-text of 'If you're fine, I'm fine'...

 

Would you tell a decidedly heterosexual teen that it might be just a phase? After all, some people don't realize their non-heterosexuality until some point in adulthood. Some are in denial because they're entrenched in a culture that doesn't allow for non-heterosexuality as a viable option. Or maybe they just haven't met the right person yet.

 

If so, then yes, it's perfectly fine to tell someone that it might be just a phase.

 

I do think that it's ok to tell any teen that sexuality isn't necessarily a static, that it's much more complex than just a gay/straight dichotomy, and that their feelings define their orientation, not their behavior. 

 

There's also a tendency to assume that someone who is questioning and ends up in a heterosexual relationship was just going through a phase, when the person they ended up with just happened to be the opposite sex.

[Melinda in VT]

Would you tell a decidedly heterosexual teen that it might be just a phase? After all, some people don't realize their non-heterosexuality until some point in adulthood. Some are in denial because they're entrenched in a culture that doesn't allow for non-heterosexuality as a viable option. Or maybe they just haven't met the right person yet.

 

If so, then yes, it's perfectly fine to tell someone that it might be just a phase.

 

I do think that it's ok to tell any teen that sexuality isn't necessarily a static, that it's much more complex than just a gay/straight dichotomy, and that their feelings define their orientation, not their behavior.

 

There's also a tendency to assume that someone who is questioning and ends up in a heterosexual relationship was just going through a phase, when the person they ended up with just happened to be the opposite sex.

I understood Eliana's post to be about responding to teens who are *not* decisive.

 

Or are you saying that every teen who wonders about their gender fit is in fact transgender?

 

Edited to fix misspelling of Eliana's name.

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

What does cause me concern sometimes is worry for the gender-nonconforming teen I know and love. I worry about that kid's well-being. I worry about the negativity that wonderful, caring, funny, sweet teen encounters out in the world sometimes. I worry about whether his (since that's the pronoun he prefers these days) parents will get on board and support their child in figuring out who he is and how to be the best version of that person that he can be and feel loved and accepted during that process.

 

As others have said, identity and sexuality and attraction are not binary.

 

You could be talking about ds' friend, except in this case it's he to she. She is a wonderful teen, caring, generous, sweet person who fortunately has some very supportive friends (and us parents of her friends) but is having a difficult time with her own parents' acceptance. 

 

.

 

My worry for trans/inter teens is that people will invalidate, patronize, and otherwise discount them. I see it with teens who express bi-sexually, seek alternative spirituality, or express a political perspective different than the expectation in their cultural context. Adults (and I have *personally* been guilty of this) often tend to dismiss the teen as "experimenting" with either the indirect or sometimes explicit expectation that they will "grow up" and "grow out" of that "phase."

 

Sexual minority teens have SO much to deal with in a psycho-social context that they need as many stable, healthy, progressive adults they can find who allow them to *be.*

 

As Eliana said, it's a tricky line to walk.

 

I think it is a tricky line to walk.

 

 I suspect what I wrote makes much less sense in print than it seemed to in my head...

 

It made sense to me.

[Lady Florida.]

Would you tell a decidedly heterosexual teen that it might be just a phase? After all, some people don't realize their non-heterosexuality until some point in adulthood. Some are in denial because they're entrenched in a culture that doesn't allow for non-heterosexuality as a viable option. Or maybe they just haven't met the right person yet.

 

If so, then yes, it's perfectly fine to tell someone that it might be just a phase.

 

I do think that it's ok to tell any teen that sexuality isn't necessarily a static, that it's much more complex than just a gay/straight dichotomy, and that their feelings define their orientation, not their behavior. 

 

There's also a tendency to assume that someone who is questioning and ends up in a heterosexual relationship was just going through a phase, when the person they ended up with just happened to be the opposite sex.

 

I read Eliana's post differently. Sometimes teens do experiment and are going through a phase. I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge it. I took her post as meaning people in the teen's life should be supportive without going overboard. Let the teen decide/realize where he/she is on the gender scale, and be supportive whichever way they come out (no pun intended). 

[Joanne]

I read Eliana's post differently. Sometimes teens do experiment and are going through a phase. I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge it. I took her post as meaning people in the teen's life should be supportive without going overboard. Let the teen decide/realize where he/she is on the gender scale, and be supportive whichever way they come out (no pun intended). 

 

Agreed, and agreed that it is not definitive.

 

There is a difference between "it's just a phase" from an adult and a teen who is exploring.

[Audrey]

I read Eliana's post differently. Sometimes teens do experiment and are going through a phase. I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge it. I took her post as meaning people in the teen's life should be supportive without going overboard. Let the teen decide/realize where he/she is on the gender scale, and be supportive whichever way they come out (no pun intended). 

 

 I agree.  The thing is that you don't know (and maybe the teen doesn't even know) if it is experimenting or if it is their true make-up.  

 

I think the tactful thing to do is to refrain from any negative reactions -- including telling them "it's a phase."  Listening sans judgment or negativity is often the thing a person needs most.  If I can be an open ear and a shoulder to lean on, then I can keep the dialogue open, too.  In the end, no matter what happens with your child, they are your child forever.  

[ocelotmom]

I understood Eliana's post to be about responding to teens who are *not* decisive.

 

Or are you saying that every teen who wonders about their gender fit is in fact transgender?

 

Edited to fix misspelling of Eliana's name.

 

I read her question as about sexuality more than gender identity. Though I suppose it could apply both ways.

 

Decisive - maybe bad wording on my part? I haven't had my coffee yet. I think a lot of things can lead to an appearance of indecisiveness, such as discomfort with the idea, uncertainty about how the other person is going to react, or not being aware of the range of possibilities. I also think that someone, especially a young someone, is much more likely to be decisive if they are straight than anything else. 

 

So, leave the "decisively" out of it.

 

Anyways, no, I really don't think "It could be just a phase" is ever helpful. I think there are better ways of conveying the idea that they don't have to make a set-in-stone decision for life right this second. I think it's kind of like career exploration - if your teen says they want to be a doctor, ideally you don't say "it might be just a phase", and ideally you don't prepay their admission to medical school, either. Instead, you help them explore what this actually means, what they need to be doing in school, what attracts them to doctoring, what other careers might be good matches, and things like that - being supportive while expanding their options and leaving doors open.

 

(Not that I think that this is necessarily a discussion a teen wants to be having with their parent, or vice versa. I'd probably go with a good book on the subject, myself.)

 

I certainly wouldn't say that every teen who wonders about their gender fit is transgender. I do think it's important to distinguish discomfort with the body changes that come with puberty, or an interest in an activity/role/job most commonly associated with the opposite gender, from being transgender. And I do think it's possible someone brought up knowing transgender people might mentally jump to that conclusion as the answer to those issues when they're otherwise comfortable with their birth gender.

 

I read Eliana's post differently. Sometimes teens do experiment and are going through a phase. I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge it. I took her post as meaning people in the teen's life should be supportive without going overboard. Let the teen decide/realize where he/she is on the gender scale, and be supportive whichever way they come out (no pun intended). 

 

I agree about not going overboard, and leaving the kid room to change their mind. I do tend to think that where there's smoke, there's fire, and that teens who truly question their sexuality probably are something other than purely straight, though they may not ever choose to express or act on that.

[Halftime Hope]

Please understand: the lived experience of gender is not comparable to the examples you've given. Society/culture/people don't assign religious or moral elements to hearing impaired. There exists compassion and care.

 

1) There may be compassion and care, but there is also trying to "fix" them (at least for that group of Deaf who want to be seen as perfectly normal the way they are.)  That compassion and care can be deeply insulting to them, and from my reading on the topic, years ago, they are pretty ticked at the privilege and the attitude that come with viewing hearing as the only "normal."  

 

2) I disagree with your statement that living a gender difference is not comparable to living any alternative lifestyle.  I particularly see many similarities with the deaf scenario I mentioned upthread with Ravin's explanation of physiology gone wrong--which then leads to someone not being comfortable in one of the binary-only gender groupings.  You are right that in general being deaf is not perceived as a moral issue, but moral judgement absolutely comes into play if someone is removing body parts, or even altering their bodies for their own artist expression, and most certainly if they are choosing to act/dress (I'm not even sure what to call it) as a different species.

 

I'm in a place in which I genuinely wonder why we can't all live--at least in the way we treat people, relate to them--as though each person's experience is just assumed to be their norm, and they are given credit for who they are.  When my expression of self begins hurting others though, I have limits.  (For example, as an adult, I can't insist that my children join me in my expression of "my otherness".)   

 

In todays' Western culture, trans are the least understood and most bullied of all sexual minorities. I encourage you to stop making comparisons to groups whose bodies work differently than "the norm" as it confuses and even insults the issues related to each group.

 

But isn't that whole point of what I'm saying? You're saying there are norms, and that the groups we (another poster and I) have mentioned are not "normal."  I'm asking why not.  I'm saying that maybe normal is an overrated concept, and we should just accept that humans come in many variations.  

 

And one final thing, just because you say it is insulting to "them," or just because someone "feels insulted" does not make what I've said an insult.  (The "Irish twins" discussion comes to mind, not that the phrase is part of my repertoire--it is not.)    

 

 

 

ETA:  hopefully, there are less typos, and I'm clearer.  Sorry.

 

[goldberry]

Please understand: the lived experience of gender is not comparable to the examples you've given. Society/culture/people don't assign religious or moral elements to hearing impaired. There exists compassion and care.

 

 

 

This did occur in the past though, when deafness was not understood.  Many deaf were considered demon-possessed, or punished by God.  They were also treated as ignorant and even killed.

 

But, I think what the poster was getting at is the deaf culture specifically.  The way some in the deaf community don't consider their deafness to be a disability but just different from the norm.  Some are very adamant that there is nothing wrong with them and they don't need to be fixed in any way.  It's a quite controversial subject.  A deaf person who doesn't want a cochlear implant, for example, especially for a deaf child, faces a huge amount of backlash and anger from the hearing community.  The point, I think, is that there is not an understanding of differences.  "I am different and society will not accept that."

[Mrs Mungo]

I would just like to point out that the word "traditional" is being misused here a bit. There are certainly traditional societies that recognize/have recognized the gender continuum, some NA tribes had several different words for gender. There were men who dressed as women, did women's jobs, had husbands (who weren't considered homosexual because they were married to a woman), participated in women's ceremonies and were pretty much treated like other women. There were other tribes where both men and women were able to cross back and forth across gender lines.

 

In certain societies today, if a family has only sons or only daughters, one or more of them might be assigned the other gender to help the other parent, sometimes to add to the family's prestige, etc. So, in Afghanistan a family without a son might dress a daughter as a son and she is treated like a boy until she reaches maturity.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/22/girls-boys-afghanistan-daughters-raised-as-sons-puberty-bacha-posh

 

Likewise, in Samoa a family with only sons might treat one as a daughter:

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/pacific/people/hazy.htm

 

Implying that these ideas about gender are brand new is flat out wrong. Historical societal norms have varied greatly, depending upon the historical period and specific culture.

[stripe]

There was an article in the New York Times about Albanian sworn virgins (women) who live as men.

 

Hermaphrodites are mentioned in the Quran and discussed in Islamic law so there is recognition that genitalia is not always clear.

[Guest]

I would just like to point out that the word "traditional" is being misused here a bit. There are certainly traditional societies that recognize/have recognized the gender continuum, some NA tribes had several different words for gender. There were men who dressed as women, did women's jobs, had husbands (who weren't considered homosexual because they were married to a woman), participated in women's ceremonies and were pretty much treated like other women. There were other tribes where both men and women were able to cross back and forth across gender lines.

 

In certain societies today, if a family has only sons or only daughters, one or more of them might be assigned the other gender to help the other parent, sometimes to add to the family's prestige, etc. So, in Afghanistan a family without a son might dress a daughter as a son and she is treated like a boy until she reaches maturity.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/22/girls-boys-afghanistan-daughters-raised-as-sons-puberty-bacha-posh

 

Likewise, in Samoa a family with only sons might treat one as a daughter:

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/pacific/people/hazy.htm

 

Implying that these ideas about gender are brand new is flat out wrong. Historical societal norms have varied greatly, depending upon the historical period and specific culture.

Thank you for that. I did not know about this.

[LucyStoner]

I have liberal, accepting parents. Still, they took some time to understand my brother. My brother's teen years were challenging to put it as mildly as possible and at age 16 he moved in with me (I was just about 19 at the time.) He was profoundly depressed, suicidal, self harming and had an eating disorder.

 

Transitioning, starting when he was 17 and 18, resolved most all of his serious health issues. No more...of a lot of highly personal stuff I won't discuss.

 

On this board and other places I have seen people laugh at trans people and compare them flippantly with (inordinately tiny number of) people who think they are donkies or goats or beach balls. I think back to the three years my brother lived with me until he finished high school and compare the pre-transition mess to the post transition sucess and I feel I have the right to say that it.is.not.the.same.thing.as.thinking.you.are.a.goat.

 

There are intersex people with some significant variance of sex characteristics. Why couldn't someone's Gender expression not match their sexual organs?

 

As for what people with traditional values think, I fail to see how other people live their lives affects my values. I am not being impinged upon because there are people out there with highly cis gender expression and my husband and I are both a bit more, for lack of better words metrosexual and tomboyish, respectively. My brother is married now to a man he's been with for 9 years IIRC and they have two little kids, a dog, a cat, a minivan and a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs. Their life couldn't really be in more white bread American stereotype if you ordered it from a catalog except for the fact that one is trans and both are gay. I fail to see how their life is a problem or an affront to anyone else's values. They aren't trying to bar other people's families from the much needed pro-family legal protections of marriage.

[Muttichen]

As for what people with traditional values think, I fail to see how other people live their lives affects my values. 

 

If other people push society to accept as normal what my religion calls perversion (Paul expresses this pretty clearly in Romans 1) and calls me a hateful bigot if I express my beliefs, it affects my values.

[Mrs Mungo]

If other people push society to accept as normal what my religion calls perversion (Paul expresses this pretty clearly in Romans 1) and calls me a hateful bigot if I express my beliefs, it affects my values.

Do you require everyone to pray? Do you require people to rest on Sunday in order to honor the Sabbath? Not everyone follows your religion. If you can live with people not following other aspects of your religion, then you can live with this.

[LucyStoner]

If other people push society to accept as normal what my religion calls perversion (Paul expresses this pretty clearly in Romans 1) and calls me a hateful bigot if I express my beliefs, it affects my values.

People have called me and other feminists a man hating ugly lesbian *itch (all but perhaps the last being completely untrue, lol). My husband is called a (redacted) for us both technically having two last names but using just one and giving our kids my maiden name and for such mundane things as enjoying sewing as a hobby and carefully grooming his eyebrows. Until those people try to outlaw my life and my family receiving equal rights under the law, it's all just words. I do not have time to worry about what people THINK about me, only what they try to DO to me. You are more than welcome to think whatever you want about my brother's family. You are not welcome to use your interpretation of your religious book to write laws that deny my nieces the same legal protections that my sons enjoy merely because their parents are heterosexual.

[goldberry]

If other people push society to accept as normal what my religion calls perversion (Paul expresses this pretty clearly in Romans 1) and calls me a hateful bigot if I express my beliefs, it affects my values.

 

As a Christian, I believe society accepts many things as the norm that are not condoned by God. That's not new. What society accepts does not have to dictate my own behavior, I still have the choice to behave in a way that I believe is pleasing to God.  Other people have that choice to make as well.  

 

Does it become more difficult to stand by your values if society does not support them?  Sure.  But again, there are numerous ways society, and especially a materialistic, selfish, and greed-based society does not support godly values.   As long as I am free to exercise my faith and values as they apply to *myself* as I please, then I'm good. 

 

As far as namecalling...meh....if that's as bad as it gets, it could be worse and is worse in many places.