Muttichen Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Does it become more difficult to stand by your values if society does not support them? Sure. But again, there are numerous ways society, and especially a materialistic, selfish, and greed-based society does not support godly values. As long as I am free to exercise my faith and values as they apply to *myself* as I please, then I'm good. Yes, but how long will you be free to exercise your faith and values? If believing that homosexuality is a sin and gender is binary is equivalent to believing blacks are inferior to whites, isn't the Bible filled with hate speech? In my own state, a wedding venue went out of business because a court ordered them to host a same-sex ceremony. We are being bullied and told to accept this or else. I don't see freedom lasting long if Christians aren't willing to stand up against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes, but how long will you be free to exercise your faith and values? If believing that homosexuality is a sin and gender is binary is equivalent to believing blacks are inferior to whites, isn't the Bible filled with hate speech? In my own state, a wedding venue went out of business because a court ordered them to host a same-sex ceremony. We are being bullied and told to accept this or else. I don't see freedom lasting long if Christians aren't willing to stand up against it. I don't really need to say anything. I think your words say pretty clearly how you feel. Nothing I say will change your mind, bless your heart. As for the first bolding, yes, some people say so. I'm sure lots believe the Bible isn't a book to be taken literally (and that's a fun discussion I'm not bothering with here), and some things in the Bible like: The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) Most would not wish followed in today's society for good reason. So you need to make peace with living in a secular society. It's not a threat to you. Nobody is making you change your genitalia or marry the same sex. And you know what? Not everyone follows the Bible, your interpretation, or is against a separation of church and state. If you don't like equality in this country, I suppose you can contact your representatives or move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes, but how long will you be free to exercise your faith and values? If believing that homosexuality is a sin and gender is binary is equivalent to believing blacks are inferior to whites, isn't the Bible filled with hate speech? In my own state, a wedding venue went out of business because a court ordered them to host a same-sex ceremony. We are being bullied and told to accept this or else. I don't see freedom lasting long if Christians aren't willing to stand up against it. You are not being bullied. And, yes, a case CAN be made that the Bible is full of what can be interpreted as hate. The business you reference *chose* to go out of business, they were not forced. They could have ALSO chosen to provide weddings to consenting, adult, couples who wanted to wed. Society benefits from stable relationships. I can't imagine why people discourage them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes, but how long will you be free to exercise your faith and values? If believing that homosexuality is a sin and gender is binary is equivalent to believing blacks are inferior to whites, isn't the Bible filled with hate speech? In my own state, a wedding venue went out of business because a court ordered them to host a same-sex ceremony. We are being bullied and told to accept this or else. I don't see freedom lasting long if Christians aren't willing to stand up against it. The point is that I have as much right to freedom as you do. No one is going to force anyone to be gay or transgender. You can't force those things, that's the point. Believing human gender is an absolute binary and that it's impossible for brain and body to be mismatched with respect to gender doesn't make it so, any more than believing epilepsy is demon possession makes that fact. Christians have adapted to new medical scientific knowledge before. They will continue to do so, the majority at least. Also, transgender and gay are not the same thing. That in your moral judgments you can't tell the difference suggests that you haven't really understood anything I've said on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 If other people push society to accept as normal what my religion calls perversion (Paul expresses this pretty clearly in Romans 1) and calls me a hateful bigot if I express my beliefs, it affects my values. It affects your public behavior, but there are other, non religious restrictions to public behavior as well. They would not, however, restrict your civil rights. There is nothing in the US constitution that protects your values, as those are subjective opinions. Your subsequent post that alludes to the belief that the bible will one day be banned as hate-speech is based on faulty information. WND has an article about the "new threat" to America, "and it's completely legal!" The article suggests that Muslims are emigrating to the United States to change the religion and culture of the nation. Well, the same separation between church and state that applies to your religion (which affects public commerce like wedding reception venues and bakeries) will apply to any religion (including Muslim). This is the whole point of this separation - to protect the individual's civil rights from the majority. Promoting the knowledge that sexuality as a spectrum reality rather than binary doesn't affect your ability to read and believe your holy books. Knowledge inspires change, but this is a good thing. It's why we have a justice system that requires evidence instead of the testimony of girls who supposedly see specters on the rafters. It's why we have hospitals that administer clinically tried and proven medicine rather than voodoo rituals. It's why we no longer criminalize homosexual behavior. These things don't restrict the individual from genuinely believing that specters exist, or that voodoo rituals are effective, or that non conventional sexual identity and behavior are sinful however. You just can't apply your beliefs in a way that restricts another's civil rights. To bring this back around to the OP a bit, do you think it's a good idea to explore the biological and social mechanics that contribute to sexual identity and behavior, or would you be in favor of not pursuing this particular field of information? ETA: I agree with Sadie. Muttichen, if you'd like to start another thread that explores this, I'd like to ask you my question there. OP - I'm sorry for contributing to getting off track. It's a natural enough bunny trail, but it's so cool watching a thread like this maintain a calm, cool, approach, and I'm enjoying the topic as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes, but how long will you be free to exercise your faith and values? If believing that homosexuality is a sin and gender is binary is equivalent to believing blacks are inferior to whites, isn't the Bible filled with hate speech? In my own state, a wedding venue went out of business because a court ordered them to host a same-sex ceremony. We are being bullied and told to accept this or else. I don't see freedom lasting long if Christians aren't willing to stand up against it. The OP did actually ask for supportive posts. The title says, "No Bashing" Rather than making it all about you why don't you just let someone get the support and answers they need? Can you not start a new thread if you want to debate? You are taking her thread off-topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Yes, but how long will you be free to exercise your faith and values? If believing that homosexuality is a sin and gender is binary is equivalent to believing blacks are inferior to whites, isn't the Bible filled with hate speech? In my own state, a wedding venue went out of business because a court ordered them to host a same-sex ceremony. We are being bullied and told to accept this or else. I don't see freedom lasting long if Christians aren't willing to stand up against it. It has long been held that businesses that operate in the public sphere must have equal access under the law. The business had other options. The business could have operated as a private club with membership requirements. They could have allowed the ceremony. They weren't forced to shut down, they made a deliberate choice. If they are operating as a public business, then yes, they can't discriminate, especially against protected classes of people (which will differ according to state). And YES, many Christians made similar arguments with regard to inter-racial marriage before it became more of a norm. I got in a pretty big discussion with my Sunday school teachers while in high school because they presented a lesson that was saying that interracial dating was wrong. In retrospect, I don't think the teachers had really looked at the lesson before the class and had not realized or they probably would have skipped it because your *youth minister* was a white man married to an Asian woman. We don't (generally) pass laws based on religion in the US. Not being protected against discrimination isn't the same as being discriminated against. And you know what? Not everyone follows the Bible, your interpretation, or is against a separation of church and state. If you don't like equality in this country, I suppose you can contact your representatives or move. I'm not sure what good contacting representatives would do since it's a constitutional issue. But, moving to a more religiously conservative country is always an option. Of course, I'm not sure how that would work out since the poster would likely *actually* be forced to follow someone else's religious beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 If believing that homosexuality is a sin and gender is binary is equivalent to believing blacks are inferior to whites, isn't the Bible filled with hate speech? Well, given that people have long used "children of Ham" to justify their beliefs that blacks are inferior to whites, I guess it must be. I wouldn't've said that so bluntly, though. You're welcome to believe that some marriages are less valid than others. Go right on with that. You're not welcome to refuse service to people who are in an interracial marriage, no matter what you think of them, nor to people who do not share your beliefs and thus can't be expected to follow them. And if you're using religion as your shield, but not equally refusing service to divorcees entering their second (or third, or fourth) marriage, then you're just being a hypocrite. If other people push society to accept as normal what my religion calls perversion (Paul expresses this pretty clearly in Romans 1) and calls me a hateful bigot if I express my beliefs, it affects my values. Yes, but when you quote Paul, the question automatically rises to my mind: what does Jesus have to say about it? Other than "love your neighbor", that is? And YES, many Christians made similar arguments with regard to inter-racial marriage before it became more of a norm. Heck, some of them do it today. They're becoming more and more of a minority every year, but they're most definitely still out there, and not all of them spend their weekends dressing up in white hoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Heck, some of them do it today. They're becoming more and more of a minority every year, but they're most definitely still out there, and not all of them spend their weekends dressing up in white hoods. I am sure that is true. My circles are pretty diverse and integrated, so it isn't something people would typically make known, if they did believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemiSweet Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 If other people push society to accept as normal what my religion calls perversion (Paul expresses this pretty clearly in Romans 1) and calls me a hateful bigot if I express my beliefs, it affects my values. I figured it was only a matter of time (moments actually from when I started reading). Let me ask you this: Armed with the knowledge that LGBTQ have the highest suicide/attempted suicide rates, if my struggling child (or yours!) read this over my shoulder and was given that final push that he was wrong and unacceptable and an abomination, to kill himself. Who then is the bigger sinner, you who drove him to suicide, or him for trying to be the person he is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 One issue with this graphic is that biological sex is more complicated than "what the doctor assigned you". You could have female appearing genitalia but have XY chromosomes. Or you could be XXY. Or you could have male appearing genitalia and by XX. I'd change it to maybe say "Physical Sex" and "Chromosomal Sex" or something like that. Although those conditions are rare, they do exist. We have a patient who was physically appearing as a female, she had been raised as a girl. Later (about age 8) she was diagnosed as being XY, I'll leave out the details as to how she was diagnosed. Internally she has male organs, externally she appears to be a female. At puberty, without intervention she will have no development. And before someone jumps on me about pronouns I will say that she identified very much as a girl. A very "girly" girl. There is some interesting research about possible genetic causes of transgenderism. That's not to imply that transgendered individuals are mutants but just that it makes sense to me that there might be genetic factors influencing a person's gender expression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ipsey Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Heck, some of them do it today. They're becoming more and more of a minority every year, but they're most definitely still out there, and not all of them spend their weekends dressing up in white hoods. I remember really accepting the fact that Christians could base racism on the Bible. The woman who discipled me as a young Christian was explaining to me, from the Bible, why interracial marriage was wrong. I guess she forgot my Dad was white and my Mom Asian. Oops! Still, she didn't backtrack when I asked if my parents' marriage was sinful. She just explained, again, why it was. So, yanno, props for sticking to her beliefs, I guess. Supporting people's beliefs no matter how bigoted or hurtful seems really important to some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Well, given that people have long used "children of Ham" to justify their beliefs that blacks are inferior to whites, I guess it must be. I wouldn't've said that so bluntly, though. You're welcome to believe that some marriages are less valid than others. Go right on with that. You're not welcome to refuse service to people who are in an interracial marriage, no matter what you think of them, nor to people who do not share your beliefs and thus can't be expected to follow them. And if you're using religion as your shield, but not equally refusing service to divorcees entering their second (or third, or fourth) marriage, then you're just being a hypocrite. Yes, but when you quote Paul, the question automatically rises to my mind: what does Jesus have to say about it? Other than "love your neighbor", that is? Heck, some of them do it today. They're becoming more and more of a minority every year, but they're most definitely still out there, and not all of them spend their weekends dressing up in white hoods. This is not a valid argument. Christians who understand the Bible to say that "marriage" can only occur between a man and a woman have no problem with men and women of any color whatsoever getting married and never did. It is biblically represented. The male/female requirement is part of the definition of marriage, whereas color of skin is not. MOSES married a Cushite woman - an Ethiopian. Numbers 12:1. Cush is in the south area of current Ethiopia. Jeremiah 13:23 addresses the difference in skin color. Not an issue. Still a "marriage". It is troublesome when people attempt to mix issues because it favors their argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 This is not a valid argument. Christians who understand the Bible to say that "marriage" can only occur between a man and a woman have no problem with men and women of any color whatsoever getting married and never did. It is biblically represented. The male/female requirement is part of the definition of marriage, whereas color of skin is not. MOSES married a Cushite woman - an Ethiopian. Numbers 12:1. Cush is in the south area of current Ethiopia. Jeremiah 13:23 addresses the difference in skin color. Not an issue. Still a "marriage". It is troublesome when people attempt to mix issues because it favors their argument. Then you should tell that to the Christians who use and have used the Bible to back up their dislike of interracial marriages. When all Christians agree, I'll never bring it up again. You also haven't addressed the crux of my comment, which was about remarriage after divorce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 This is not a valid argument. Christians who understand the Bible to say that "marriage" can only occur between a man and a woman have no problem with men and women of any color whatsoever getting married and never did. It is biblically represented. The male/female requirement is part of the definition of marriage, whereas color of skin is not. MOSES married a Cushite woman - an Ethiopian. Numbers 12:1. Cush is in the south area of current Ethiopia. Jeremiah 13:23 addresses the difference in skin color. Not an issue. Still a "marriage". It is troublesome when people attempt to mix issues because it favors their argument. Marrying outside of one's race was illegal in many states until 1967. Yes, there have historically been many Christians who have had a problem with interracial marriage, and many attempted to back their bigotry using the Bible. Also, saying a forefather of the faith did marry interracially would not satisfy a Christian intent on objecting to intermarriage. David was a polygamist, when he bothered to marry his sex slaves at all. Does that mean we should follow suit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Marrying outside of one's race was illegal in many states until 1967. Yes, there have historically been many Christians who have had a problem with interracial marriage, and many attempted to back their bigotry using the Bible. Also, saying a forefather of the faith did marry interracially would not satisfy a Christian intent on objecting to intermarriage. David was a polygamist, when he bothered to marry his sex slaves at all. Does that mean we should follow suit? Including one well known homeschool publisher, and up until very recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 Marrying outside of one's race was illegal in many states until 1967. Yes, there have historically been many Christians who have had a problem with interracial marriage, and many attempted to back their bigotry using the Bible. Supreme Court decision Loving v. Virginia 1967 http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/388/1 From the circuit court of Caroline County indictment in 1958 "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix." I was born in 1967, many other posters commenting recently on remembering events of the 1960s. So this isn't ancient history, it's modern history, an issue happening within the lifetime of many members of this board. Quite sad, imo. Yes, it doesn't specifically quote scripture, but it does invoke the authority of God and grant him as the reason for interracial marriage to be illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 There is some interesting research about possible genetic causes of transgenderism. That's not to imply that transgendered individuals are mutants but just that it makes sense to me that there might be genetic factors influencing a person's gender expression. I definitely think there are genetic factors at play. Genes and genetic expression are fascinating and it's not like gender queer or transgendered people are a sudden 21st century phenomena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Found today: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5869118 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Found today: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5869118 I saw this on a trans support board I'm on. Lauren's message is an important one. Not everyone needs or wants medical intervention, and shouldn't be required to have it to be themselves. For other people, it's life or death. Some people get caught in the middle, where they could take it or leave it because the physical dysphoria isn't so bad for them or is manageable, but the need for legal and social recognition outweighs the medical risks in the individual's cost-benefit analysis, or they decide other things like being able to have biological children are important, too. There are also people for whom medical transition isn't possible because of other health conditions. There's no one size fits all answer for what to do about being transgender. When dealing with a transgender teen as a parent, helping them weigh all that stuff is one of the big challenges. Most teens, for example, aren't thinking about whether they'll want kids yet when preoccupied with more basic identity issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I just watched the video of Lauren. I can't wrap my head around a person thinking they are transgendered by having no desire to present as the "new" gender. (I can understand wanting to avoid medical intervention though.) Can someone explain to me what the difference is between Lauren just being a tomboy that doesn't feel very feminine vs. being a transgendered male? I always thought transgenderd people would want to present themselves as how they felt, other than if they were worried about safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I know someone who felt/feels trans but decided not to transition due to concerns over the medical risks and a personal desire not to lose their (rather stunning) singing voice. Reasons for not pursuing treatment are variable and personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Can someone explain to me what the difference is between Lauren just being a tomboy that doesn't feel very feminine vs. being a transgendered male? This hits a note for me because when my brother first indicated that he wanted to transition I had the thought of, hold up here, we both grew up tomboys, neither of us is particularly feminine in most of our gender expressions and we are both attracted to males. Why not just be a tomboyish type woman? What's the need to seriously alter your body? If gender is this social construct why not just be happy how you are and social norms be damned? The answers were pretty simple though. I am happy as a tomboy. I enjoy my not really very gender conforming womanhood. In my relationship, I am not just attracted to a man, but a man who is attracted to a woman. Underneath it all, I am a woman. My brother on the other hand was not happy and did not enjoy most aspects of his daily life and how people perceived him pre-transition. He was happier dating gay men and FTMs than heterosexual men, Underneath it all he was not a woman. He is a gay man. How does he know? About the same way I know I am a straight woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I can understand not wanting to persue medical treatment. Lucy, in the example you mentioned, did this person chose to dress and do hair as the gender they identified with? In the video above, Lauren claims to be a man, yet dresses and appears as a woman and plays female roles in shows. To me, as an outsider, I would think Lauren would want to dress and present as a man, regardless of decisions about medical treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I can understand not wanting to persue medical treatment. Lucy, in the example you mentioned, did this person chose to dress and do hair as the gender they identified with? In the video above, Lauren claims to be a man, yet dresses and appears as a woman and plays female roles in shows. To me, as an outsider, I would think Lauren would want to dress and present as a man, regardless of decisions about medical treatment. This person chooses to live a pretty gender fluid life. Sometimes they appear more feminine and sometimes more masculine. This person, I'll call them E uses a male variant of their birth name but uses a feminine pronoun at work and sort of avoids the question of gender altogether. Some of it depends on how you are built. My brother was lean and wiry with a small bust and even before chest surgery he could present as pretty much a skinny teenage boy. E really can't entirely present in a masculine way without surgery because of body shape and build. E considered surgery and hormones for quite sometime but decided both came with undesirable outcomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I will say that I know a teen who went so far as to legally change her name to a more gender neutral name. She sometimes dresses (and identifies) as male and sometimes as female. She sometimes prefers the he/him pronoun, but sometimes uses she/her. It is a little confusing to me why someone like that couldn't just be a girl who sometimes dresses like a guy. I don't really think she intends on actual reassignment surgery (at least from my understanding). BUT, even though it is confusing, and I don't understand it? I do understand that this is still a teen who probably is going to take a while to figure things out herself. In the end, I think you probably accept the people you love and accept the parts of them that don't make sense or are contradictory without always needing to understand it. But I can see how it might seem *very* confusing to people more on the fringes of their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socalmom Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I will say that I know a teen who went so far as to legally change her name to a more gender neutral name. She sometimes dresses (and identifies) as male and sometimes as female. She sometimes prefers the he/him pronoun, but sometimes uses she/her. It is a little confusing to me why someone like that couldn't just be a girl who sometimes dresses like a guy. I don't really think she intends on actual reassignment surgery (at least from my understanding). BUT, even though it is confusing, and I don't understand it? I do understand that this is still a teen who probably is going to take a while to figure things out herself. In the end, I think you probably accept the people you love and accept the parts of them that don't make sense or are contradictory without always needing to understand it. But I can see how it might seem *very* confusing to people more on the fringes of their lives. We know a teen that is going through something similar. It is complicated. Love and acceptance are key. We don't always get it right but we're trying and they know that. I recently found this article - http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/when-no-gender-fits-a-quest-to-be-seen-as-just-a-person/2014/09/20/1ab21e6e-2c7b-11e4-994d-202962a9150c_story.html?hpid=z1 Margie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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