Sunday School is killing church (CC)

[mom31257]

Here is an article with a recurring theme I keep seeing around the internet. I just don't see why so many people think that dividing kids up by ages for 2 hours on Sunday is going to be the main factor in kids deciding to leave the church. I can see kids not liking church, but I think what happens at home, school, etc., for the remaining 166 hours a week has a lot more to do with that kind of decision.  

 

http://www.theologyinworship.com/2014/09/08/sunday-school-is-killing-the-church/

 

There is no formula that will guarantee your children will turn out as you wish, that they will stay in church or leave the faith, etc. 

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I didn't read the article, but we did spend five years at a Family Integrated Church, one of the tenants of which is that families should stay together. DH and I never believed as many that Sunday School or youth groups are evil. I believe they can be fluff, but I see no reason why they couldn't be done well. Some of our fellow church members, however, were the types to say that even having a nursery was wrong.

 

In the end, I think if families are relying on Sunday School or youth groups, they will probably be disappointed. I view Sunday School as a supplement to me teaching them at home. 

[Ellie]

Piffle.

 

I mean, I know it's meaningful to the writer, but still...

 

I think that an age-appropriate "Sunday school" for everyone is a good thing. It should be followed by everyone going together for the "worship service," however, not by the children going to children's church, so that they spend the whole morning with other children, even though it's only once a week. :-)

 

Mr. Ellie clearly remembers answering an altar call at his Southern Baptist church when he was only 5yo. We don't know when--or if--our children will hear God's call, but we should do as much as possible to help that happen. Sunday school for everyone, followed by children 5 and older going into church to sing and hear the Word of God preached, and perhaps even to worship ("singing" and "worship" are not synonyms, which is a whole other discussion, lol. And I'm not convinced that we are supposed to have "corporate worship," either, but that is also another discussion).

[J-rap]

When I look back at my growing up years and church, I realize that Sunday School played a very, very minimal part in it.  In fact, I really did not like it at all as a kid!  I would have much preferred to stay with my parents in the church service, even though it was boring.  :)

 

In all honesty, not much from my church years had any effect on me at all until I was a teen and began to really think about things on my own.  Then, I was really glad I was involved in a youth group with a great leader.  I attended a Lutheran church that had hired a Catholic nun to be our youth leader!  Go figure!  She was a spitfire, and taught me more than any other Christian leader/teacher during those years.

 

Other than that, I think it's what happens at home that really makes a difference.  It just is.

 

But, I will say that I LOVE those old, old hymns, and so do my kids.  Some of those old hymns are very meaningful and help connect you to a deeper faith root of the past.

[milovany]

I think it's not because Sunday School is "evil" but because of the foundational premise that says kids aren't ready for "real church."  It divides church into real church and, what?, pretend church?  I don't know, but it's a reality that the division is there. It's explained as "church at their level," but it's still a division.  We were very interested in the protestant rendition of family-integrated church for many years and were usually the one family in church who kept their kids with them in the main service. We attempted (sometimes not very successfully) to not judge others, but aside from that altogether, we do know it was very beneficial for our family. 

 

When we converted to Orthodoxy, we were very glad to see that family-integrated church was innate and organic.  It's always been there, isn't a statement of any kind, it's just what's done.  Everyone attends together in the one service because that one service is life-giving and we're all full members who need to partake in it, and to receive the Holy Eucharist. It's just not an option to have some of the members off somewhere else.

[catz]

Our church does the first 15-20 minutes whole church and then the kids break out into their groups.  It's a nice compromise.  They also have some nice opportunities for teens.  I remember being bored out of my gourd in my church service every week.  And I am not attending the same type of church as an adult as a kid.  So there are many reasons kids will switch as adults. 

[Seasider]

With one dc attending with us, she would drop out if there WEREN'T separate/additional programming offered for her age group!

 

I do believe that these offerings must, at some point, make the transition to study and fellowship focused activities, rather than 100% high energy entertainment. Where we attend now, the wonderful youth programming provides an effective balance.

 

ETA - The downside to youth groups that I watch out for is when youth group leaders attempt to usurp the parental role. This happens sometimes, but kids often show up who have little parent involvement. Those who have involved parents - well, those parents need to stay involved, at least aware.

[MrsMommy]

I think he's spot-on.

 

I have no problem with children being divided up by age in Sunday School...while the adults are in Bible Study, before or after the worship service.

 

But worship is corporate, and should include people of every age. If we shuttle kids off to Sunday School during the worship time, we're sending children the message, "this isn't for you." That should never be the first message we send to someone at church. Can you imagine if we did this to an adult visitor? They'd never want to come back! Why should children be any different? If they're taught that worship isn't for them when they're young, they're not going to magically want to attend when they're "old enough." They're not suddenly going to say "Hey! Church really is for me!" when they're older. They're going to keep remembering that it wasn't for them for a very formative period of their life, and they're going to remember that experience and take it to heart.

 

There is nothing that happens in a worship service that is inappropriate for children, and they need to be there. Period. Don't tell me it's too long for them to sit still. If they can sit through movies and ball games (usually longer than a Sunday morning service), they can sit through church. They can go to Sunday School before or after the service for their "age-appropriate" story and crafts, which in my experience, don't teach nearly as much as the actual service does, anyway, but they need to be with their families and their church family in worship, every Sunday.

[albeto.]

Here is an article with a recurring theme I keep seeing around the internet. I just don't see why so many people think that dividing kids up by ages for 2 hours on Sunday is going to be the main factor in kids deciding to leave the church. I can see kids not liking church, but I think what happens at home, school, etc., for the remaining 166 hours a week has a lot more to do with that kind of decision.  

 

http://www.theologyinworship.com/2014/09/08/sunday-school-is-killing-the-church/

 

There is no formula that will guarantee your children will turn out as you wish, that they will stay in church or leave the faith, etc. 

 

I agree with you. There's data to suggest the internet is one major culprit in declining church membership. It's one thing to believe a claim of supernatural reality when "everyone" around you does, but quite another when you see it's one of hundreds of beliefs, each one not coincidentally related to the belief of one's parents' and culture. There's also more access to information that corrects wrong beliefs, explains things in an accurate way that can be verified and doesn't require faith to believe. Most notably perhaps, is the widespread illumination of hypocrisy and cruel behavior inspired by religious belief. Is there any data to suggest children who are raised in Christian families who don't attend Sunday School are statistically significantly more likely to maintain their faith when older? I don't recall seeing anything about that when I skimmed the articles (the one linked and the one linked in that). 

[monstermama]

At my church growing up, Sunday School took place between the two services, and always started with all the kids together for 10-15 minutes before separating out into age groups (adults, of course, had their own Bible studies at the same time).  Kids sat in the actual worship service up until the children's message, which was basically a kiddified version of the sermon, and then kids under a certain age went to children's church to do a craft while the older kids and adults stayed for the actual sermon and the last hymn.  So, besides the nursery students (pre-preschool), kids would get both a Sunday School lesson going over that day's scripture at that level, the opportunity to worship corporately, a mini-lesson from the pastor him- or herself, and then a craft related to the lesson.  So, of course, I think that's just perfect!  It wasn't until I was an adult and started talking with families with young kids that I realized that what my church did was so different.

[ktgrok]

My feeling is different things will work for different kids and different families, at different stages. There should be good options for people to choose from. I love my parish. There is a nursery for ages 6months to 2 years, but it's VERY optional. There are maybe a dozen kids in there, and we have 600 people at a service. Most littles are with their family, along the back walls, walking around, in the cry room, in the pew, wherever. They are accepted in Mass, wholy, but there is also a nursery option if you want it, or need it. There is "Sunday School" for 3 yrs up to Kindergarten, during the Mass. Again, totally optional. Not required in any way, but available for those families that want it. Many littles are in the pew with mom and dad.. My daughter ADORES Sunday school, so she goes. (she's 4). First grade and up are expected to be at Mass with their parents in the pews, and then go to a religious education program on Wednesdays. So they get both the age appropriate education and the time worshippng wtih the family. 

[ocelotmom]

No, it doesn't make sense to me to eliminate Sunday School. Just as you wouldn't expect an elementary school age kid to get a lot out of a college class (or stick an adult into a Kindergarten), it doesn't make sense for kids to get a whole lot out of a church service aimed at adults.

 

I went to a church where there was Sunday School, but where kids attended services semi-regularly (one weekend a month, holidays, and all summer), I can tell you that I remember parts of Sunday School reaching back to when I was 4. I remember the content of Revelation and most of the hymns because I'd sit around and read them instead of paying attention because it was much more interesting. I do not recall the content of one single sermon. Not one.

 

Ok, I lie. I remember the sermon where they told us our pastor had been arrested the previous evening for drunk driving. That incident was kind of memorable. But that's beside the point. I'm sure our preachers were fine speakers, but their primary audience was the adults.

 

I do agree that children's programs shouldn't be frenetic or dumbed-down. But there's somewhere in between Sunday School as daycare and throwing kids into a church service that doesn't hold their interest at all. We had an awesome children's choir director who taught us all sorts of old hymns, along with the vocabulary. When he taught us "Christ Is Made the Sure Foundation", he took us out to see the cornerstone of the church. Totally appropriate, meaningful teaching aimed at a child's level. Much more appropriate than just teaching the words without addressing the meaning in an accessible way, which seems to be what the author is recommending. I still love hymns, even though I don't identify as Christian. 

 

I have attended various churches as an adult, and was much more engaged with the sermon at that point.

[ktgrok]

I think he's spot-on.

 

I have no problem with children being divided up by age in Sunday School...while the adults are in Bible Study, before or after the worship service.

 

But worship is corporate, and should include people of every age. If we shuttle kids off to Sunday School during the worship time, we're sending children the message, "this isn't for you." That should never be the first message we send to someone at church. Can you imagine if we did this to an adult visitor? They'd never want to come back! Why should children be any different? If they're taught that worship isn't for them when they're young, they're not going to magically want to attend when they're "old enough." They're not suddenly going to say "Hey! Church really is for me!" when they're older. They're going to keep remembering that it wasn't for them for a very formative period of their life, and they're going to remember that experience and take it to heart.

 

There is nothing that happens in a worship service that is inappropriate for children, and they need to be there. Period. Don't tell me it's too long for them to sit still. If they can sit through movies and ball games (usually longer than a Sunday morning service), they can sit through church. They can go to Sunday School before or after the service for their "age-appropriate" story and crafts, which in my experience, don't teach nearly as much as the actual service does, anyway, but they need to be with their families and their church family in worship, every Sunday.

 

I agree and disagree. I agree that kids should NEVER feel unwelcome. EVER. The service should be appropriate and welcoming to littles. That said, I like the OPTION of Sunday School / Nursery for littles. At my parish is is just that, an option. Kids that don't want to go, don't go. They stay with mom/dad/whomever. But for littles like my DD, who is 4, that want to go to Sunday school, they can. Last year that was a huge deal, as she was a wiggly 3, and it WAS hard to sit still that long at that age. And keeping track of her AND the toddler was a near nightmare for me. My dh doesn't go to church. So it's just me. For moms of many, who are single or by themselves for whatever reason, it's a huge blessing sometimes to have that hour to focus on something just for them. Kids 1st grade and up do NOT have a sunday school, they go to classes on another day and are expected to be in Mass with mom and dad. But, by 1st grade they can sit still for the most part, so I find that different. 

 

I guess I think it's good for school aged kids to be in worship, but different when it's a 2 year old. 

 

But again, just options. I will NEVER go to a church where my children aren't welcome in the pew with me if that's where they and I want them. 

[Mbelle]

My kids think Sunday School is boring.  They already know all the information, they need a bigger challenge so they don't go.  They also think youth group is boring and silly.  They actually love to attend worship and love the sermons.  The past two years are the first time we have ever gone to age segregated church.  We are looking to return to traditional worship for many reasons.

[ocelotmom]

My kids think Sunday School is boring.  They already know all the information, they need a bigger challenge so they don't go.  They also think youth group is boring and silly.  They actually love to attend worship and love the sermons.  The past two years are the first time we have ever gone to age segregated church.  We are looking to return to traditional worship for many reasons.

 

I definitely think that kids who want to go to the main service should be enthusiastically welcomed!

[Bootsie]

Our family struggled to find a church that did not have the "Sunday School OR corporate worship" mentality rather than a "Sunday School AND corporate worship" 

[poppy]

Anyone else click on this expecting it to be about parents getting burnt out in being asked to teach Sunday school?

My church has 10 grades, requiring 2 teachers.  That is 20 people who only get to attend the first 10-15 minutes of church most weeks.  Out of a congregation of 200.  That's a lot.

[trulycrabby]

Actually, I get judged for not putting DS10 in Sunday School or the youth worship service. The service we attend is made up of about 75% senior citizens, and their tolerance for wiggly, sniffle-y kids is low. Too bad; we worship together, then talk about the service later on.

[forty-two]

I think it's not because Sunday School is "evil" but because of the foundational premise that says kids aren't ready for "real church."  It divides church into real church and, what?, pretend church?  I don't know, but it's a reality that the division is there. it's explained as "church at their level," but it's still a division.  We were every interested in the protestant rendition of family-integrated church for many years and were usually the one family in church who kept their kids with them in the main service (while other kids all went off to kids church). It was very beneficial for our family. 

 

When we converted to Orthodoxy, we were very glad to see that family-integrated church was organic.  It's always been there, isn't a statement of any kind, it's just what's done.  Everyone attends together in the one service because that one service is life-giving and we're all full members who need to partake in it, and to receive the Holy Eucharist. 

 

This is what I was thinking.  I also wonder if some of this is wrt churches that have Sunday school at the same time as the service - where the point of the service is primarily to *learn*, and the central focus of the service is the sermon.  So the kids learn at "their level" in Sunday school or children's church while the adults learn at "their level" in the service - same basic goal, to grow in the faith by *learning* more about it.

 

Whereas in sacramental churches, the point of the Divine service is to receive God's grace, and the central focus is Holy Communion.  We grow in the faith through God working in us through the Word and Sacraments, and *everyone*, of all ages, benefits from that.  In the Lutheran church, Sunday school is the primary time for learning more about the faith, for everyone, as the sermon in the Divine service is primarily about proclaiming the Gospel, a means of grace.  (In my rough understanding, our Sunday school goal is equivalent to the church service goal of non-sacramental churches.)  In my non-scientific experience, it seems to me that sacramental churches tend to be naturally "family-integrated", and I think it's due to the differences in theology of worship. 

 

If we grow in faith primarily by learning more, then common sense says that kids are at a different level than adults, and separating them is the easiest way to accommodate that.  But if we grow in faith through receiving God's grace through Word and Sacrament, then we'd *want* everyone to be in the Divine service, to receive God's gifts.  And the effects of incorporating the whole "learning should fun and effortless" part of our culture into Sunday school would be lessened in sacramental churches, because the kids would still be part of the Divine service with everyone, part of the life of the church, and would still be formed through the means of grace.  (Although it still has pernicious effects.)

[Tenaj]

My kids think Sunday School is boring.  They already know all the information, they need a bigger challenge so they don't go.  They also think youth group is boring and silly.  They actually love to attend worship and love the sermons.  The past two years are the first time we have ever gone to age segregated church.  We are looking to return to traditional worship for many reasons.

 

One of the problems we've seen is that our kids are taught the Bible at home, we read the Bible, we read Bible story books together, we constantly discuss how to apply the Bible and its principles to our lives.  So, they go to Sunday school and, because Sunday School is viewed as an outreach in most churches, they are attending Sunday School with kids who have no clue about the Bible and are hearing the stories of the the Bible for the first time.  So, you have a group of kids who are already very familiar with the Bible and ready for deeper study paired up with kids who have no knowledge of the Bible and it takes a very special teacher to incorporate the two and make it interesting for everyone.

 

I don't know what the answer is but I think you can compare it (in general) to the problem a lot of public school kindergarten teachers have.  They have the kids who don't know how to count to ten and have never learned the letters, as well as the kids who are already reading.  How do you manage a class like that? 

 

Our church has segregated Sunday School but my oldest did choose to attend the adult Sunday school class from the time he was about 10 because he enjoyed the teacher and was ready to dig deeper into the Bible.  That teacher was great about including him in the discussions and giving us a heads up about any material he thought we should address before the class - at the time he was teaching straight through the Old Testament and there were a few times he felt the material might be a bit shocking to our ds if it came up for discussion without a warning.  Unfortunately, that Sunday school teacher is no longer with us and the current teachers aren't as good at integrating the different ages.  

 

My kids would probably classify S.S. as boring but they go and enjoy the fellowship, both with their teachers and the other students and we challenge them at home to deepen their knowledge and interaction with the Word of God and their relationship with Christ.

[forty-two]

Here is an article with a recurring theme I keep seeing around the internet. I just don't see why so many people think that dividing kids up by ages for 2 hours on Sunday is going to be the main factor in kids deciding to leave the church. I can see kids not liking church, but I think what happens at home, school, etc., for the remaining 166 hours a week has a lot more to do with that kind of decision.  

 

http://www.theologyinworship.com/2014/09/08/sunday-school-is-killing-the-church/

 

There is no formula that will guarantee your children will turn out as you wish, that they will stay in church or leave the faith, etc. 

 

Totally agree with you re: there being no formula that comes with guarantees.  And that what happens the remaining hours of the week matters a ton. 

 

But I do think that "the point of church is grow in faith by learning more about God" combined with "church is boring/hard" - especially with the dominant cultural belief that "learning should be fun" - can be a fairly significant contribution to young adults deciding that there are better ways than going to church to learn more about God.  And I do think that divorcing oneself from a local church body makes keeping your faith so much more difficult, as the local church is the normative place for gathering with believers and receiving God's gifts through the means of grace.  (I do realize that going to church to receive the means of grace is only a meaningful reason if you do indeed see Word and Sacrament *as* means of grace; I do believe that God works through them even in people who don't believe in the means of grace, though.)

 

But I agree that all those other hours in the week are very important wrt helping kids learn to understand and appreciate the Divine service.  I do make an effort to teach my kids hymns and the liturgy and what they mean, as well as connect our daily devotions to what we do in church.

 

ETA:  I do think part of the formative effects of attending church is gathering *together* around the means of grace - that not only are we being formed by participating in the liturgy, we are formed by participating *together*.

[vonfirmath]

There is nothing that happens in a worship service that is inappropriate for children, and they need to be there. Period. Don't tell me it's too long for them to sit still. If they can sit through movies and ball games (usually longer than a Sunday morning service), they can sit through church. They can go to Sunday School before or after the service for their "age-appropriate" story and crafts, which in my experience, don't teach nearly as much as the actual service does, anyway, but they need to be with their families and their church family in worship, every Sunday.

 

Yeah. Well I have proof my son CAN'T sit through movies or ball games.  We've been to a church where they were expected to go to church past the age of 4 and it just didn't work for our family. Whereas, with children's church, my son comes out able to tell us what he learned and refers back to it during the week in dealing with other stuff.

 

So for us, this is what works.  (And our church is perfectly welcoming of kids in the worship service. Even has coloring pages and colors if they need something to do and I see kids there. It isn't for our (Me and my Husband) kids though.)

 

When he gets older (7th grade I believe) they have a special church service for the youth -- it used to be youth only except the preacher but they have opened it up some where the adults CAN come if they want -- but the youth do everything except the preaching at that service. And its in a different location, more casual (which some of the youth have testified makes it easier for them to participate. The main church auditorium is too intimidating to think of making mistakes in. There was a vote trying to get this moved into the main church auditorium earlier this year, so they wouldn't feel like they were lesser or different, and the youth there ALL said No!) 

 

I really love the program they have at our church.  They have a plan for infant through HS that gradually teaches more and gives more responsibility. Once the kids are in the youth program they have individual bible study groups mentored by adult couples during the week and are expected to be more active in service in the church as well, so the programs focused on the youth are placed at times and places to make this easier for them to do.

[Aelwydd]

Sunday School was for teaching kids and adults about Bible study, and the main service was for preaching and worship (in the Assembly of God denomination I was raised in). As a 20-something, I gravitated towards more traditional, liturgical worship and became an Episcopalian. These churches usually had separated Sunday School classes, but an integrated Mass for everyone.

 

Eliminating S.S. seems a poor substitute for addressing the real reasons many youth are abandoning religious participation as such. For me, learning more about the scientific process, meeting various people online, and discovering the unabashed rejection if faith by many on the internet, really prompted me to admit my own doubt, and to quit apologizing for my innate skepticism.

 

So, albeto is right. The advent of the internet has really opened up the world wide perspective, and changed it from me seeing other places as just a mission field, and instead full of fascinating people with their own customs and beliefs and dreams and ideals. Once I realized I didn't want to change them, I also realized I couldn't affirm faith in a Savior who would require people to change themselves to be saved from hell. One domino to the next.

[mom2scouts]

My church has a very active Sunday School and youth program, but they also provide materials for parents to use at home, have a monthly family night program, have the Sunday School classes follow the same Bible verse that the parents are getting in the service, and have regular family worship services where Sunday School isn't offered for that week.  The idea is that the youth programs are designed to help parents teach their children throughout the week.

[forty-two]

My kids think Sunday School is boring.  They already know all the information, they need a bigger challenge so they don't go.

 

This is not to pick on you (if Sunday school is meant for learning, then already knowing what is taught does rather make it pointless), but it reminded me of something I'd read recently, that comes from an alternate perspective.  In the Large Catechism, Martin Luther talks about people who read through the catechism texts once or twice and think they know it so they have no further need of them.  (Here he's talking about the core texts of the catechism - the Lord's Prayer, the Apostles' Creed, the Ten Commandments, and key verses on Holy Baptism and the Sacrament of the Altar - and not his or others' explanations of those texts.)  He disdains this view - that we can master the fundamentals of the faith and then move on to "more interesting" things - but rather sees the need to continually grow and be formed by the core of the faith.  For one, no one can ever fully master it, no matter how much they study it, but also that living in this sinful world, we are in constant need of re-learning and re-seeing and being re-formed.  The core fundamentals of the faith are indeed *core* - there is no growing *past* them, but a continual journey of growing *in* them.

 

Which is what I told my kids when dd8 complained that she "knew this already" as we read a well-known Bible story ;).  There is so much more to growing in the faith than "knowing stuff".

[sunflowerlady]

I think young people (and older people).are leaving church because of the church itself. There are many, many reasons and I don't think Sunday school is one of them. At least not a major one.

[Joanne]

I can't quote from the linked article due to new board rules.

But my summary bottom line is this:

 

His logic sucks and his history accuracy questionable.

Kids have been leaving church, period, for decades. They left church when families worshipped together, and they have left church when families were age-segregated

The "stick them in the pews and force them to be still" litany makes me cringe. So did his passive/aggressive "contemporary style music and self help sermons" comment.

 

If that WORKED, why did "the Western church" try to fix a problem?

 

Kids are leaving church for other reasons, and not reasons that many people who write these posts want to consider or talk about.

 

[Greta]

Kids are leaving church for other reasons, and not reasons that many people who write these posts want to consider or talk about.

I left the religion that I grew up in (JW) because of the excessive amount of control the leadership exercises over their followers, the harsh legalism, the never-ending judgments, the constant fear-mongering, and the lack of Christian love and grace. JWs have no Sunday School or youth programs whatsoever. They also have the lowest retention rate (according to Pew) of any US religion. I don't think the presence or lack of Sunday School has much, if anything at all, to do with the question of retention. If your church brings people closer to Christ, they will stay. If your church puts up barriers to growing closer to Christ, people will leave.

[MistyMountain]

As a kid I had to attend the service and I got absolutely nothing out of it. It was super boring to me. I'm sure lots of kids can learn to sit through the service but it doesn't mean they are getting something out of it or understand what is going on. There may be some that are naturally inclined toward learning about religion and enjoy it but I think a lot of kids don't really pick up much from it.

 

My understanding of things that wasn't only made for kids my age was really good. I read my sister's college texts and loved reading about science but I tuned out the entire adult worship service and only listened during a few of the songs that were catchy. Attending didn't keep me in church as an adult. I left for other reasons that usually are not covered in these type of articles.

[forty-two]

My son showed me the article yesterday and it really ticked him off. For one thing he thinks traditional hymns are the only way to truly worship..... GRRR. Plus there is a problem with terminology. What he describes is children's church that takes place during regular worship, not sunday school. Sunday school is where you meet in a classroom and study scriptures at your age level. So if you are 4 then you will color a picture of the Ark and sing the fun song or something.

Wrt the terminology issue, some churches do indeed have Sunday school (for kids) at the same time as the service (for adults), instead of service/children's-church and a separate Sunday school.

 

Wrt the "hymns are the only way", that's not what I took away from the article (although that may say more about me than the article). What I got was that, when faced with the (presumed) fact that kids cannot understand or appreciate anything but relatively current hymns and forms of worship, we should make a specific effort to *teach* the older hymns and liturgy to kids. By assuming that nothing old could possibly have any meaning to kids, and thus never expose them to it or teach it to them - and so make it a self-fulfilling prophecy - we cut kids off from their religious past, give them no historical roots or tools to be able to explore the history of their faith themselves.

 

I see lots of parallels with reasons to give kids a classical education in a world that, by and large, sees it as too hard and too irrelevant to "today's kids" and advocates teaching using exclusively modern content and methods. (And just as I can agree with the historic reasons to give a classical education without embracing all the historic methods uncritically, I can embrace helping children grow into the historic liturgy and hymns without embracing all the old methods to do so.)

[TechWife]

I haven't read anyone else's responses, so forgive me if I am repeating something. 

 

I think he is oversimplifying things. People leave church because their faith is not at the place where sustained church involvement plays a part in their lives.

 

There are thousands of reasons why this could be true. 

 

Sunday School dates back to the early 1800's and it's suddenly a problem? I don't think so. 

 

Also, as a matter of interest. I read the bio section on the blogger. He is married and has a dog. No children. So, he really has never had a front seat view of the spiritual development of a person from birth on. I find it hard to believe that doesn't affect his viewpoint at least a little. 

 

As an aside, I wonder how he and the other staff members determined that they had a "lazy and unmotivated segment" in their church body. Did they actually have a respectful discussion with any of the people that make up that segment? What was the Scriptural standard that they used to measure them by? But, I digress. 

[mom31257]

I have to come back and update a concern about something. We have been searching for a new church home this whole past summer. After last night, I think I might realize something about all of this. It isn't about having age-appropriate classes, it's about the people a church allows to teach those classes. 

 

My kids visited a youth group which had sort of shallow teaching from the main youth group pastor, but the disturbing part of the small groups, which were broken down in smaller age increments. My daughter was with senior high girls, and one of those girls expressed the feeling that surely God wouldn't send good people to hell and that she felt like good people would go to heaven. Well, the teacher proceeded to share her sentiments and never taught her biblical truth about any of it. My daughter was so mad, but as a visitor and a reserved person, she did not feel she could speak up and correct the teacher. My son said his small group sat on couches for about 20 minutes, but the teacher only taught for about 5 of those. 

 

I still don't think age appropriate classes are at fault, but a church should really make sure that teachers are firmly grounded in the doctrines of that church and know the Bible very well. 

 

While I'm sad for the kids who go there regularly, it was so nice to hear our own kids come out saying we can't go here because of the lack of solid, deep biblical teaching. 

 

[DawnM]

I enjoy Sunday School and always have, even as a child.  My boys all enjoy going to class with their age group and making friends at church. I encourage that.  I want them to have friends at church.

 

We attend a very large church, so breaking off in to smaller groups of people in our similar stage of life (age, married couples, with children, etc...) is enjoyable to me. 

 

However, I am an extrovert and that may play in to some of it.

 

[Joanne]

This came up on my feed today:

 

http://swingingfromgrapevines.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/please-stop-telling-us-why-were-leaving-the-church/

[Seasider]

This came up on my feed today:

 

http://swingingfromgrapevines.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/please-stop-telling-us-why-were-leaving-the-church/

 

Good read. I have witnessed #5 in particular, both from my own perspective and that of the next generation, my nieces/nephews and children of friends.

[chiguirre]

One aspect of this discussion surprised me: many people seem to think Sunday School is fun. Is it supposed to be fun in your church? I was raised RC and CCE was meant to be school. It's makeup work for not attending religious education in a Catholic school. We had textbooks, worksheets, sticker charts for prayer memorization and even tests. Sure, it's not the hardest subject, but it is schoolwork. I didn't hate it, but it wasn't the highlight of my week either. My kids were okay with going in order to qualify for their First Communion, but it wasn't a "fun activity". It was an academic pursuit. I even had to explain Geezle's special needs to the Religious Ed director so she'd modify his output requirements to allow me to scribe for him on his homework.

[Mbelle]

This is not to pick on you (if Sunday school is meant for learning, then already knowing what is taught does rather make it pointless), but it reminded me of something I'd read recently, that comes from an alternate perspective.  In the Large Catechism, Martin Luther talks about people who read through the catechism texts once or twice and think they know it so they have no further need of them.  (Here he's talking about the core texts of the catechism - the Lord's Prayer, the Apostles' Creed, the Ten Commandments, and key verses on Holy Baptism and the Sacrament of the Altar - and not his or others' explanations of those texts.)  He disdains this view - that we can master the fundamentals of the faith and then move on to "more interesting" things - but rather sees the need to continually grow and be formed by the core of the faith.  For one, no one can ever fully master it, no matter how much they study it, but also that living in this sinful world, we are in constant need of re-learning and re-seeing and being re-formed.  The core fundamentals of the faith are indeed *core* - there is no growing *past* them, but a continual journey of growing *in* them.

 

Which is what I told my kids when dd8 complained that she "knew this already" as we read a well-known Bible story ;).  There is so much more to growing in the faith than "knowing stuff".

 

It is true we don't just read or learn something once and never revisit it, however our kids SS is being taught at a very basic level.  It should be revisited on a deeper level.   We only switched churches 2 years ago and my kids were raised in a liturgical church until then.  It seems like a lot more is absorbed just by liturgical worship than I appreciated/realized.  It is part of who they are.   The church has  a very schoolish approach to the lessons and that the SS teacher is considered the authority, which was backed up by the asst. pastor in a sermon. hmm..no.  My kids truly enjoy the worship and sermons.  We quit going to church for awhile and are now visiting other churches. 

[Joanne]

I have to come back and update a concern about something. We have been searching for a new church home this whole past summer. After last night, I think I might realize something about all of this. It isn't about having age-appropriate classes, it's about the people a church allows to teach those classes. 

 

My kids visited a youth group which had sort of shallow teaching from the main youth group pastor, but the disturbing part of the small groups, which were broken down in smaller age increments. My daughter was with senior high girls, and one of those girls expressed the feeling that surely God wouldn't send good people to hell and that she felt like good people would go to heaven. Well, the teacher proceeded to share her sentiments and never taught her biblical truth about any of it. My daughter was so mad, but as a visitor and a reserved person, she did not feel she could speak up and correct the teacher. My son said his small group sat on couches for about 20 minutes, but the teacher only taught for about 5 of those. 

 

I still don't think age appropriate classes are at fault, but a church should really make sure that teachers are firmly grounded in the doctrines of that church and know the Bible very well. 

 

While I'm sad for the kids who go there regularly, it was so nice to hear our own kids come out saying we can't go here because of the lack of solid, deep biblical teaching. 

 

As respectfully as possible, the above sentiment and culture, depicts *exactly* why I left the church.

 

Perennial questions and queries emerge because they create cognitive dissonance. There are sound, valid reasons why the doctrine of grace and the existence of hell are incongruent.  The commonly held belief that this issue can be allayed by "firmly grounded doctrines" and "biblical truth" is patronizing.

 

While I am sad for kids who attend churches that have group think like that, I'm glad my own kids don't go there because of lack of inclusiveness, presence of legalism, and a lack of appreciation for the literary history of the Bible and an appreciation of metaphoric teaching.

[sunflowerlady]

This came up on my feed today:

 

http://swingingfromgrapevines.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/please-stop-telling-us-why-were-leaving-the-church/

 

 

 

Good article. I never thought about the money thing being an issue, but it makes sense. For me, I recognize many of those reasons as why people in general are leaving even though this post is specific to young people.

 

Spiritual abuse-check

related issues like sexism-check

meeting and getting to know all kinds of people-check

knowing they would not fit in at church-check

teaching same thing over and over-check

 

I even recognize the response that people are leaving just because they want to sin. HA-Like you have to leave the church to do that!  With all the stories of pastors and leaders and their scandals, that should debunk that notion.

[mom31257]

As respectfully as possible, the above sentiment and culture, depicts *exactly* why I left the church.

 

Perennial questions and queries emerge because they create cognitive dissonance. There are sound, valid reasons why the doctrine of grace and the existence of hell are incongruent.  The commonly held belief that this issue can be allayed by "firmly grounded doctrines" and "biblical truth" is patronizing.

 

While I am sad for kids who attend churches that have group think like that, I'm glad my own kids don't go there because of lack of inclusiveness, presence of legalism, and a lack of appreciation for the literary history of the Bible and an appreciation of metaphoric teaching.

 

But my point was that the teachers in the churches should know the doctrines of the church they are teaching in. This was a Southern Baptist church which has a statement of faith that salvation is through grace and the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross and not through our own goodness. The teacher should have addressed the girl's concern from that standpoint. Yes, she should have addressed it as a valid feeling and concern, but from a Baptist standpoint, she should have then pointed out what their church teaches on that issue (which would be how can we be good enough to go to heaven, who sets the standards on what is good enough, how can we know we're good enough, we all sin, how can some sin get in and others not, leading to the scriptures that all have sinned and fall short, so it's only through grace that we can know, etc.)

 

It sounds like you left because your church had more literal interpretations of the Bible, but that is over doctrinal issues. This article is addressing how churches run the day-to-day of their services. I am saying that churches should be careful who they allow to teach those day-to-day classes.

 

There are so many churches that anyone should be able to find one with a level of interpretation of the Scripture with which they are comfortable.

[mamaraby]

This came up on my feed today:

 

http://swingingfromgrapevines.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/please-stop-telling-us-why-were-leaving-the-church/

I think this is closer to the issue at hand.

 

I get the discomfort with children leaving faith and I can understand the compulsion to want to "do something" to prevent it. However, what the blog post above is getting at, and what I would suggest, is that there isn't a whole lot you can do when your child is young to insure they will do one thing or another when they are older.

 

If faith is a personal decision, if it's something an individual must have and nurture then exterior enforcement is not going to impact that unless we're talking authoritrian measures with a goal of external appearances/compliance. People aren't inputs in a manufacturing senes where as long as your process and inputs are right, the end product is right. I think that as group we could find examples of people who experienced the family-integrated church ideal raised up in the OP and did not continue in their faith when they became adults. I think we could also find plenty of people who went to sunday school as kids, didn't go to a "real" church service until they were adults, and have a vibrant faith as an adult.

[shawthorne44]

I remember some pivotal Sunday School classes that strengthened my faith.  It was the only religious instruction I got.  So, I plan on keeping DD in Sunday School.  

 

[Joanne]

But my point was that the teachers in the churches should know the doctrines of the church they are teaching in. 

 

This article is addressing how churches run the day-to-day of their services. I am saying that churches should be careful who they allow to teach those day-to-day classes.

 

 

 

The article, IMO, is attempting to address why people leave church. I am suggesting that my experience represents many of those "leavers."

[Joanne]

I remember some pivotal Sunday School classes that strengthened my faith.  It was the only religious instruction I got.  So, I plan on keeping DD in Sunday School.  

 

I loved Sunday school, particularly as an adult with adults-only.

[Cricket]

"But we’ve forgotten that an important component of education is exposing kids to things they can’t yet understand in order to build important connections later on."

 

I liked this quote. Kids usually don't wake up one day and decide to be educated. It's a process facilitated by parents and teachers. I've seen good Sunday School programs and I've seen ones that are no better than simple babysitting. Our church has Sunday School, then a worship service. We have children's church for two- and three-year-olds and the purpose of it is to prepare kids to sit through the worship service. Worship is something we do together, not a spectator sport.

[albeto.]

"But we’ve forgotten that an important component of education is exposing kids to things they can’t yet understand in order to build important connections later on."

 

I liked this quote. Kids usually don't wake up one day and decide to be educated. It's a process facilitated by parents and teachers. I've seen good Sunday School programs and I've seen ones that are no better than simple babysitting. Our church has Sunday School, then a worship service. We have children's church for two- and three-year-olds and the purpose of it is to prepare kids to sit through the worship service. Worship is something we do together, not a spectator sport.

 

What's killing church, in my opinion, is that this education the kids are exposed to can't compete with objective facts that more logically and reliably explain something, facts that don't require faith to accept. People who stay do so for many reasons I suspect, community, comfort of the idea, support, etc, none of which are addressed through the education of dogma (Sunday School). 

[catz]

"But we’ve forgotten that an important component of education is exposing kids to things they can’t yet understand in order to build important connections later on."

 

 

I would agree this varies widely depending on the church.  We go to the UU, so perhaps this discussion is not even truly relevant to us as a "church".  Many and maybe even most UU's are perfectly ok if their kids do not grow up to be UU assuming they don't join a cult and disown their family.  I do think it's healthy and normal for teens to young adults to be questioning and finding their way.  If they are going to have a faith or church home, at some point they need to "own" it. 

 

The preschool through high school programming at our church is very well designed to be thought provoking and challenging at many levels.  They often end in open ended discussions.  And it leads in well to regular service attendance.  The regular sermon at our church often has the tone and level of a college lecture.  And I appreciate that not every minute of service has to be age accessible to everyone.  Sunday School is not mandatory at our UU.  There are families that come on Sunday and sit in service is a family.  There are other families that just come for Wednesday programming.  Etc.  I personally love that we have Sunday School.  Both my kids would be labelled "GT" in a regular school and it's one place where grade level programming is open ended enough  that I still feel like they're getting something out of it. 

 

If the kid's programming did not work at our church, we simply would not be going there. 

[happypamama]

I have no problem with Sunday School in age-segregated classes -- separate from the worship service time. We used to go to Sunday School classes and then meet up with our parents for the worship service, and I can remember some really good teachers in the tween/teen years who helped to provide the "this isn't just some thing my parents made up" that I think is good for adolescents. But never did it take the place of family worshipping together. I'm not a big fan of Children's Church where the children aren't in the service at all. I could maybe concede the setup where the children leave right before the sermon, but I absolutely want my children in the service for the first several prayers, readings, hymns (and I want them hearing the hymns from the 1700s!). If they're really incapable of sitting and are noisy to the point of distraction (infants who like to help the pastor speak can sometimes be distracting!), DH or I will take them to the back or just outside the sanctuary for a bit. Any church that pushes the nursery or Children's Church on us too much is one that we will not attend again.

 

(And this is probably why we don't attend church very often, sigh. Combination of living far from everything, so it takes a great deal of effort and time just to do it, and wanting a more traditional and conservative approach but not too much so, and it's really hard to find one that is just right.)

[Cricket]

What's killing church, in my opinion, is that this education the kids are exposed to can't compete with objective facts that more logically and reliably explain something, facts that don't require faith to accept. People who stay do so for many reasons I suspect, community, comfort of the idea, support, etc, none of which are addressed through the education of dogma (Sunday School).

I'd argue that most kids aren't educated at all in the logic of their faith and therefore have no response to any critique of it. The current American church has been relying on the vague concepts of community and comfort for far too long. The early Christians weren't believers because of that. Christianity didn't spread worldwide because of that. Christians don't stand firm in the face of persecution and death because of that.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I went to a family integrated church for five years. The services were 2-3 hours long. While keeping the family together sounds nice, the reality was that the women, who generally had a baby ever 18-22 months, generally missed half or more of each service, depending on how old their youngest baby was. There was room in the back to walk around with kids, but until the last few months we were there, they didn't have a speaker back there so anyone in the back had a tough time hearing.

 

While it's fine for "a season" (I've grown to hate that phrase), the "season" for these women could easily be ten or twenty years. Some of the men would take turns walking the babies and toddlers but many of them never did it more than a handful of times. They expected their daughters to be the ones to give their wife a break.

 

In any case, my point is that while churches should never discourage parents from bringing reasonably quiet kids in the service (and people should learn to make some allowances for toddlers and preschoolers), the idea of it being wrong to have a church nursery just puts a bigger burden on parents, especially women and single moms.